LIFO?

xmrscott[m]: in .no they prep your tax return, and if you are fine with it don't have to do anything at all. But if you disagree yiu can amend it to your hearts content.

As it should be

Inge-: Last In First Out. Is handy for calculating cryptocurrency tax returns if you have held for a while.

ah

I kind of naively believe you can take out whichever ones you want

LOL

choose your outputs wisely, for they may carry untold burden

Monero for lyfe

sweep_single is your friend

:-)

sweep_single: the log for all logs

adorable

also, very memable :D

"plix don't ban me!"

<midipoet> Do people here worry about taxes? --> probably not what you meant when you asked the question, but personally my main gripe with them is being forced to subsidize things that I find morally and/or ethically abhorrent. that's profoundly disempowering imo. it ought to be possible to limit usage of each person's tax money to certain categories that they approve of

never really understood the whole 'i have my right to the fair share [of other peoples money]!!' angle

kayront: sure, i get the ethos. however, i am not sure if people have the capacity to understand how 'centralised money pots' should be spent. they can maybe understand where it 'should not' - ie war, but it's harder for them to determine the distribution of their 'shoulds', if that makes sense.

and specifically as they pertain to crypto, i find it abhorrent that in most countries people have to disclosure how much crypto they have. does anyone really think the government databases won't be hacked in time? the fact that cryptos are bearer assets present a completely different risk profile, there is no one to call for restitution after the local mobsters come knocking on the door because they got your name, pic, address and

known-to-have crypto amounts from some database

(same problem with KYC, as I suspect will become evident in due time)

sure midipoet, i get that too. perhaps it could be opt-out, as in, your money is spendable for any category, and then if it bothers you you can go and disable individual categories as you please

it could also serve as a last line of defense against political tricks that we're so familiar with, like passing legislation piggiebacked on other, vaguely unrelated stuff, to give but one example. legislate all you want, if the people decide not to foot the bill.. it won't happen. in theory, anyway

kayront: i would imagine that it would be better if they said - you owe X amount - but allowed you to distribute where that money went (maybe in a transparent manner with BTC equivalent or something). if there was uneven distribution internally the government could then discuss the issues openly with the electorate/senate potentially through election cycles, or something like that.

would also be a god manner to direct government efforts democratically

ie. everyone wants to spend money on health, school, children, and environment - well that's the mandate then...

and if a party wants to change the mandate, they can campaign for it (ie. please donate to the war fund, as country X is looking dodgy)

or something like that!

yeah

being forced to fund things you're diametrically opposed to is not good for human dignity, I believe.

having the CHOICE would also likely reduce the temptation for the psychopath-types to try to reach positions of power, if the people have this last line of defense and can simply with a click of a button elect not to fund whatever shady scheme, this would be a strong deterrent

wzuppp

sup

<kayront "and specifically as they pertain"> Is this a thing in the EU, even if you don't have any taxable events w/ XMR?

hm. kinda new to using IRC, but is there a way to have hexchat save past chat logs even if I'm not signed in? or do I need to be signed in to see chat logs?

christnofskimn: You need a bouncer for that. Basically a server which saves the chats while you are away

Or use Matrix instead of IRC :)

znc is a common IRC bouncer though, and one I've run in the past.

But I've certainly enjoyed making the switch to Matrix (which is bridged to IRC) instead

christnofskimn: Also, there is monerologs.net FWIW which can remove the need for logs if you use IRC exclusively

Granted it doesn't have all the channels though

Yeah I have a matrix client, but I'm trying to be better about siloing my communications into different applications. right now matrix is for work stuff

I really want to avoid turning matrix into email haha. when everythign goes into one client, the line between work and fun gets muddled all to hell

thanks for the links/tips sethsimmons, xmrscott

install irssi

its the future

screen + irssi to more exact

golden duo right there xmrscott[m]

albeit tmux is arguably better

good to know

rumor has it if you run IRC in your terminal you will go to IRC heaven after you pass away

hm. will my cat be able to join me in IRC heaven?

If he never missed a PONG as per RFC1459 section 4.6.2 and 4.6.3 then he is eligible, yes

damn it. my cat is never standards complaint.

there goes your ISO certification

wait, I lose my certification if my cat is not standards compliant?

shit hope my boss never finds out

in all seriousness the ISO is both kind of amazing in that it exsists and is sort of usefull, but also increadibly frustrating in its complexity

christnofskimn: ya

irc heaven 😂

Community meeting soon. 20 min.

Meeting starting now.

ohi

1. Greetings.

ohi

Hi

osu

👋

ossssss

2. MCW Updates

So quick recap. Justin and Doug have stepped down as MCW leadership. They've given control over to Core.

Hi

They'll be starting their own workgroup and news of that should be coming soon if you're interested.

We're not quite sure what this means in terms of things beyond meetings (i.e. coffee chats, youtube channel, etc).

MCW too big to fail?

Is there anything in particular that people want to keep around in this workgroup?

community meetings

this chan

what problem made them leave?

There's numerous posts about backlog about this. I'd rather not get into it here for the sake of time.

figured that was the case

I guess this biweekly meeting will keep running as usual no?

ye

I'll be running it.

And I may change up the schedule.

Well, I guess we can discuss that now.

Is there anything about these meetings that we don't like or that we like? Things we should add? Things we shouldn't?

this is my first community meeting

so not much input on that front

well, welcome! Glad you're here.

welcome christnofskimn :)

welcome

I think the structure is fine as it is

aight if no further comments we'll move forward

3. Community highlights

hi

My apologies on the Revuo taking two weeks again. Defcon kicked my face in as usual.

I'll do a special two week issue today.

Hi

I've only had to do this one other time, so I think Revuo has a decent track record still.

Let's jump to Workgroup reports.

a. Daemon/CLI/GUI workgroup

dsc_ medusa_ dEBRUYNE?

medusa. Are they still around? :P

sometimes they come on ping

rehrar i cannot find any links on reddit

about that

b. Localization workgroup

endogenic: we can talk after

Nothing new. We are looking for a norwegian translators

we have the entire website translated but not reviewed yet

oh

<ErCiccione "Nothing new. We are looking for "> In to English?

i also pushed the first round of translations for getmonero. Waiting for reviews then merge

monerod: no, English -> Norwegian

see translate.getmonero.org

c. Website workgroup

A lot of merges and a lot of cool stuf (RSS feed autodetection among other stuff)

I'm compiling my usual update as we speak. I think i will post it tomorrow on reddit

xmrhaelan you around?

thanks ErCiccione

if he is then d. Outreach workgroup

aight then

sarang you around?

for e. Monero Research Lab

I can comment

go for it

the significant item is CLSAG

the implication is smaller transaction sizes ~600 bytes

and a reduction in fees. The fee per byte will reamin the same

Here from the Outreach Workgroup

Hello everyone

hold up lh1008[m]

let ArticMine finish and then you can go

Sure

Hi

In any case this will be in the upcoming hard fork

Sorry, was busy with weekend chores

I will pass on to sarang

awesome! Is that it from you ArticMine?

cool

take it away

Yeah, CLSAG is good to go, which is very excitign

Otherwise, I may participate in ISO technical committee work on PII and privacy in blockchain technology

Which I hope will be helpful to the broader ecosystem

I'm finishing up some BP+ proofs-of-concept that would play nicely with our existing setup

And a bunch of small tweaks and things to production and research code

sarang: speaking of that. Has anyone been in communication with the people that opened the CCS request?

on BP+

For BP+? Yes, I have at least

Others perhaps as well

what's the word?

They are interested in either writing production code for Monero, or auditing/reviewing any other implementation that is written

ah, ok. So are we planning on doing the engineering in house then?

We've been working together on some more accurate numbers (their initial timing comparisons do not hold up)

I do not want the decision of whether or not to accept the current CCS to be left to me

ok. We'll get to that soon then. That it from you?

Given the few people who I think are particularly qualified to review BP+ given expertise, having these researchers audit code (they couldn't audit code they write) seems like a good idea IMO

That's about it, sure

cool deal.

lh1008[m]: you're up

Okay

So

Triptych article has its final details. We wanted to sarang to take a look at it

Oh sure, are there recent changes?

I think xmrhaelan or thunderosa will be reaching sarang soon

Sounds good

Yes, the article has a final drat that need your review

final drat

2rl

The Spanish, Portuguese, and French translations are in production too

Draft** oups

heh

lh1008[m]: just PM or mention when it's ready

Yep I will

aight sounds good

so then

The quickfacts is also going to be delivered this week

And the calendar is almost done too

Those would be to fulfill the second milestones from the 3 CCS round

I think thunderosa an any time will give a more detailed update on the calendar, I'm working on the quickfacts

cool

anything else?

The quickfacts will change a bit. We will make it more user friendly, a one page quickfacts instead of 3-4 pages we had

And we are also working to update the meet-up-kit

We don't have anything clear yet but is under our bulletpoints

That would be it :)

awesome. Thanks for the update.

Let's do some CCS Update stuff. Mostly focusing on the BP+ discussion.

Thank you for the space and time

So what needs to be decided is whether or not we merge the proposal as is (meaning they do the engineering) or whether we'd like to engineer the thing in-house and have them edit their proposal for an audit. Correct sarang?

the idea being that we know the Monero codebase better and could probably engineer better and for less time and cost than they

but still keeping around their valuable expertise

FWIW I am not arguing we could do it "better"

something which they seemed open to

Nor am I speaking for them

The proposers were very open to the idea of auditing another implementation, FWIW, and said they would update the CCS (or just make a new one) once a timeline and plan is set

Everyone should read the proposal themselves, as well as the comments and notes on it

Link: repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/156

Familiarity with the Monero codebase and test framework is certainly something that is likely to be a factor in any timeline, but it's worth noting that BP+ is still very new anyway

The size benefits are nontrivial, but I don't see that there's a particular rush to deploy (especially given the likely network upgrade schedule)

for newcomers here can you briefly summarize what BP+ would do for us?

Bulletproofs+ (BP+) is a modification to Bulletproofs (BP), which we use in the protocol

BP -> BP+ would give a 96-byte reduction in transaction size

With effectively the same verification time (marginally faster, but not much)

Note that there is a 0% chance it would be ready for the fall upgrade

does anybody have any thoughts on this?

Also note that as you read the CCS, the relative timing data in Table 1 should not be used (this is discussed in later comments) to make decisions

That data uses different methods for BP than for BP+ in a way that isn't comparable

From the discussion in MRL it seems to me that Arcturus is currently the best candidate for the next protocol. Any idea when it would be ready for implementation? Thinking of timeline comparison

benefits from BP+ would carry over into our next gen tech, correct sarang?

Keep in mind that Arcturus relies on a novel and untested cryptographic hardness assumption

One reviewer presented a claim about a break to that assumption, but I disagree

(will discuss this at the next MRL meeting)

Deploying it would carry risk

Triptych does not rely on this assumption

with all of these disclaimers in mind

does BP+ carry over to Triptych and/or Arcturus?

benefits

Yes

wee

Both BP and BP+ are independent of Triptych/Arcturus/CLSAG/MLSAG

You can mix and match as you like

and the benefits come along for the ride

cool

thanks

I'm going to skip over the Defcon stuff. We'll schedule a meeting in #monero-defcon for that.

Anyway, IMO provided that BP+ gets additional eyes over time, it seems a good idea

But give that it wouldn't be deployed until sometime next year (depending on desired upgrade schedule), I think it's worth giving the preprint time to receive additional scrutiny

ye. No rush.

Having the CCS proposers around for code or audit seems like a definite win; they have expertise with it

ok

Open ideas time!

no

I have an update

This is the part where anyone can suggest anything that they'd like to see happen, or whatever, in the Monero Community Workgroup, or in general.

ok go dsc_

For the past 1.5 years I have been working on a new Monero GUI for desktop written in C++ almost from scratch using libwallet, QtWidgets. Since 2-3 months I have dedicated substantial time in getting it finished and currently most functionality is working - so it's just polishing now. This new wallet has several benefits over the official Monero GUI, I will provide details at a later point in time.

In short; It is remote node minded and the interface resembles Bitcoin's Electrum. You are of course free to connect to your own node, just like in the GUI. The wallet will ship with Tor embedded (just like Brave). Fully open-source, MIT license (probably). Coin/output control / single_sweep. Multi-sig. 14 word seeds. A user-interface that inherits from your OS's style, and a wallet that "feels"

fast and performant to use.

nice

I currently have a CCS proposal going for the official GUI, in which I brought up my thoughts on supporting Purism's Librem 5. I stated in my CCS that the current codebase is not fit for such implementation due to much of libwallet's business logic being implemented in QML (the mixing of business logic in the presentation layer) and that a seperate/clean codebase would need to be developed. So I

took precaution in this new codebase to trivially support other GUI interfaces, such as ncurses, QML, or QtWidgets specifically for certain platforms/devices.

seed thing is interesting?

nice!

haha ye olde code complexity strikes again

what did endo say

factor that shit!

awesome dsc_ !

It's just polishing now, and the many exciting features I will share in a video soon. I will also launch the new website associated with this new project. When that is released, the community will be able to see and what they can expect from this forthcoming release - and possibly also critique. I will try to get a CCS payout soon, for the upcoming 2 months leading up to release. But we'll discuss

that after I presented my work ;)

Purism's Librem 5 is both a desktop and a phone in one device

thx :) hard work but worth it, gonna be cool

ArticMine: Purism suggested to include "a Monero app" by default when you buy the device

this is for wownero's dominance over monero isnt it

calling it

Yes I know

but what makes it interesting is the need to support both a phone and desktop interface on one device

will work fine on any of the nix phone ports, for example the pine64 phone?

It is literally the phone becomes the tower part of a desktop

i know there are a few disros out there working on DEs for these phones.

ArticMine: Indeed, most/all business logic is in something I call "AppContext" - the rest is just presentation. So multiple devices/platforms could be supported.

Maybe GUI workgroup has other plans, maybe they want to port the official GUI.

But I fear for it's complexities there. Anyway, food for thought.

I will present everything soon :P

awesome. Thanks for the update.

NOW open ideas time.

Another thing to note; i co-created this with another Monero member

thanks

I have an idea.

'A things the community would like to see rehrar do before the next meeting'

dsc_: are you allowed to say what member?

As you guys know, I work for the Core Team, and I do what I feel needs to be done. I'm answerable to Core who is answerable to the community. So indirectly I'm answerable to the community, but not directly.

midipoet: he likes to be called "tobtoht"

very mysterious person

That said, I want to start getting community input for what they think urgent tasks are.

>_<

I can do this in the Monero Community meeting, as the major workgroup leaders tend to show up.

dsc_: if it's just your imaginary friend, that's ok too.

midipoet: (he has previously comitted to GUI)

useful or nah?

I think thats a good idea rehrar

christnofskimn has spoken! so shall it be

rehrar: sort of like a "community to-do list"?

urgent task: create LLC 🤤

midipoet: yes, but a non-binding one

rehrar: so a suggestion box

yes

First suggestion: updating the thingy that says the next community meeting is two days from now?

the irc channel descritpion i think

rehrar: I would like to know who the mods are of this channel now

me

and is the CoC still binding?

any volunteers?

I do not foresee the CoC to continue, no.

but the workgroup now belongs to core which does a good job of implementing community desire

so if the community here decides they still want it, then we can keep it

what do you all say?

You know my opinion lol

I would have to read it again

it seemed pretty fair

I just wanted to know what the "rules" were now

that's in flux

I don't think anyone has everything nailed down atm

if you have some suggestions go ahead

We're over time for the meeting, so I'll officially call it done here. Anyone who needs or wants to leave can.

But the discussion will continue here if you want to stay.

I had suggestion/question, are there any ongoing legislative efforts?

meaning?

like, does monero have any desire to engage in shaping gov policy, or even just keeping track of policy

christnofskimn: closest thing is the legal whitepaper, or our conversations with Coin Center

I would certainly like to shape policy in privacy's favor

christnofskimn: are you in #monero-compliance

the irc channel yes

Oh it was the LLC thing?

MRL put work into the compliance thing but i dont see them called out

fyi

?

not really endogenic, curious about if monero has ears to the ground on potential policy changes, like if the IRS wants to tax xmr differently, or if congress mandates encryption backdoors that make the coin illegal in the US

endogenic: different efforts. Yours seemed to be mostly independent

well when you take our paper and dont communicate

what do you expect weirdo

yes, we will tax xmr

^

christnofskimn: that wont be monero anymore

<christnofskimn> like, does monero have any desire to engage in shaping gov policy, or even just keeping track of policy <---- I would say yea

We have to

christnofskimn: are you aware of some groups who are doing this for crypto now?

Probably best to start there

What does it mean for "Monero" to engage in advocacy?

Workgroups are generally free to operate as they see fit, within reason

sarang it depends on the outcomes you want to see. can range from an open letter/petition to making meetings with regulators, congressmen, or providing expert testimony at comittee meetings

I can put you in contact with Coin Center if you haven't already spoken to them

Sure, but who writes this, and whom do they claim to represent

and spg_ not really, any suggestions on some?

"We represent Monero" seems sketch

that would be great

christnofskimn: okay, remind me Monday :)

christnofskimn: Individuals are free to work on whatever they want to. Also by forming workgroups and whatnot. There isn't a central entity called "Monero" who shapes what should be done and what not.

As a community we cannot allow the narrative to be taken over by those that are hostile to Monero. I mean not just US but also EU etc

No, but claiming to represent multiple different communities rubs me the wrong way

There are a wide range of views within the communities about what regulation should or shouldn't look like

he's new to the meetings guys

doesn't know the ruffled feathers that come with saying 'monero' does something

give him a break

I'm not accusing of christnofskimn of doing this; I mean more generally

sarang: I don't think that was never implied. They are probalby just unaware of Monero's structure

He can represent our workgroup if needed, we'll make it work

Apologies if it sounded like that christnofskimn

no worries chaps. all this feedback is great

Isn't the pupose of the compliance workgroup exactly that tho?

Who is in charge of that? Lol

We've never discussed the scope

Oh. personally i don't know much about it. I just know it exists :)

Really all we have done is written one blog post

Advocacy can happen without claiming to represent any particular person's or group's views

I would point out that the decentralized nature of all this could diminish impact any testimony. Like, its more impactful if a member of the core team provides testimony/expert opinion on why givin policy proposal is bad/good, if its just a workgroup with only a tangental connection to core devs, less of an impact

this is a general rule of thumb btw.

That's the downside of being an open community with no central authority :)

This may be something more fit for Coin Center etc with Monero community members helping them drive policy/testimonial, etc.

christnofskimn: the best you can do is represent a related workgroup that agrees

yeah. Or invent a role for yourself

That too

that sounds official

Heh

Or let a crappy cryptocurrency news network invent a title for you 😂

I'm acttually not one for giving testimony myself. what I usually do keep track of stuff thats going through the legislative process and notify stakeholders when their testimony/imput could be needed

christnofskimn: that's super useful

Keeping an eye on relevant regulatory actions and directions seems very very useful

<christnofskimn "I'm acttually not one for giving"> Sounds like that could be super useful for the community to stay more informed!

that and orginize grassroots campaigns

Also sounds amazing

I wish I knew to comment on the bitlicense recent discussions

ikr sgp_

The EU is coming up

If the compliance workgroup doesn't have a path in mind yet, that could be it

so if folks are interested in knowing about legislation/rules that could affect monero, where/who sohuld I be putting that info?

Join #monero-compliance as a first step I’d imagine.

complience channel?

And share there

Not sure past that honestly

coo. I love the disclaimer that its not legal advice in the description of the channel

I am in the compliance workgroup and have been trying to work with the EC on many things related to AML/KYC/Blockchain through work. Mostly I do it on my own back.

There was talk of an effort to bring stakeholders together through privacyseries.org

Covid slowed that down a lot

how are they coming to terms with the fact that anonymous private digital cash is here midipoet ?

i always imagine that's not exactly what they have in mind when they announce they want to support "blockchain"

I also have a relatively important journal paper on this coming out very soon, which included a host of perspectives from the Monero community, and broader in the the regulatory space

Exciting stuff!

kayront: to be honest, it's a much wider discussion

do share midipoet

It included e2e encryption, the Privacy Directive, the NIS Directive, and the new Cybersecurity Act

I have shared my view on crypto / AML/ KYC a number of times in compliance regarding identity, but it sort of got shut down

:(

Identity is the key to this moving forward. I cannot stress this enough

identity as in no anonymous txs?

Any good resources for your view midipoet? Would love to read more.

anonymity is pretty much already gone in Europe. McFadden Vs Sony case

2016

Unless there is new jurisprudence at the European Court of Justice

sethsimmons: yes...hang ob

i am not familiar with the case

but that seems quite the statement, considering cash is perfectly legal, and tor/i2p/etc also

Something can be legal in the sense that there is no specific enforment,

That's the legal background

midipoet: btw, when us ay you've been working with the EC, is that in person, email, what?

That's part of the wider discussion ^ the Wang paper

Thanks for the shares 🙂

kayront: I work on a current H2020 Project, that feeds directly into the AML/KYC/identity discussion. That was what we were tasked to do.

The tool is being developed for deployment into the financial services sector

oh, I know folks here probably are not interested, but there are some opertunities for tech folks to get paid to be on US congressional staff

christnofskimn: nice share

midipoet: how many of the people there have actually used moreno?

kayront: what people?

whoever it is you're in touch with @EC

deadline to apply for that particular fellowship is aug 27th

actually used it? I am not sure. Know about? Probably all of them. Monero (or its tech) is mentioned all over the place in official documents

I am not sure if you realise. Mostly always in a positive light

The EC aren't idiots

They are bound by their perspective, but they understand things also

like, they could have NOT created the GDPR for example

i do not realize at all, which is why I'm making the questions. hard to tell over text maybe, just being very direct

I think it's foolish to think that it's always state Vs us

That's always been my view

I know others think differently

i do however default to a certain cynicism about such matters, that's for sure. but that's probably obvious enough :p

Oh sure. I wonder as well

(given the ever-degrading state of affairs over the last 20 yrs esp. when it comes to this stuff)

But the only way to change things is to try and change things, right?

yes, you're doing god's work

And it's better "politically" to do it in a friendly manner

eh, midipoet not always. Depends on *how* you are trying to change things.

i've often thought about contacting some EU officials or the UN and discussing matters, but I fear the mentalities about KYC/AML are so entrenched that simply writing, no matter how eloquently, is probably not enough

if your trying to work with regulators directly then yes for sure

and besides, coincenter has done a pretty good job at making the case for digital cash

kayront: you'd be surprised

but you can get a lot of change done by applying negative public pressure

<christnofskimn "techcongress.io/appl"> Ooo, thanks for highlighting. Might apply myself assuming this isn't a full time 40 work week dealio which it isn't as far as I can tell

lately i've been focusing on onboarding new users instead, everyone from my dealer (lol) to my teachers now takes it

xmrscott[m] Im not sure, but it might involve moving to DC

taxjustice.net is worth a look. They care about jurisdictional arbritage between states

i can be .. very persuasive

My company works with them as well

i'm also back to chatting up randoms in the street and talking about such things, obviously with a much lower success rate

but it gets them searching and it gets them reading

christnofskimn: Technically my company is WFH until end of at least June, at least for now, I imagine given pandemic surely they'd allow WFH. Not to mention wouldn't have to pay a 2.5K stipend

*moving stipend

kayront: you know, I asked concentre to help me a few times back a while ago. Blanked me every time. I am not sure if they are interested in anything but their own game

I ended up having to make contact with US regulators myself, with help from others

i've tried getting in touch w them several times also, never any reply

Was sad, given the topic of the paper

but they sure write sweet pieces and give good podcast interviews

kayront: I think they are just on their own mission. Not anyone elses. You would think a polite decline would be manageable mind you

xmrscott[m] on their info page says you gotta move"

Is remote participation in the fellowship possible?

Unfortunately, no. You will have to relocate to Washington, D.C. for the fellowship. Although we expect a significant amount of the fellowship work to occur virtually until we have a vaccine, there will likely be times you will need to be in person. Fellows have continued to, on occasion, staff Members of Congress at Committee hearings and during floor votes and you will need to be local for those occasions.

Ah, looks like fulltime to as well, oh well: womenwhocode.com/jobs/6686

man, i'm just afraid that unless we can raise awareness of this tech fast enough, trigger-happy regulators are going to ruin the party for all of us - and worse, for people (that'd be the other 99.999999%) who dont' even realize what tool just got taken off their future hands, why, and why it's important

this is sadly fairly common. DC is a weird bubble

i'd be 100% in XMR (crypto wise, i'm not that mad) if that wasn't a concern

totally agree kayront

although regulators are not very trigger-happy as a rukle

it's so frustrating, even in crypto most people don't get it. although in all fairness whenever anything remotely privacy related is discussed on the usual channels now, way more often than not monero comes up in the comments

midipoet: agree, it would be .. agreeable to at least reply and say, "thx but no thx"

i think the dialogue in a society is at a very infantile level regarding privacy/anonymity. i have zero doubt that monroe has, is, or will be used for truly nefarious purposes, and anyone with their head screwed right knows it's only a matter of time

but that's a very small minority of people

kayront: indeed. Lost quite a bit of respect for them over that

privacy has a strong place

Data protection has a strong place

Anonymity is less understood

It's actually quite a big knowledge gap

i agree that p&dp (ok, dubious abbreviations, heh) are better understood, but also, it seems to me that these protections don't really apply very much when it's the government coming after the data - i could be wrong

national security does usually get carte blanche

for sure it seems to have clicked in their heads that corps have been free-for-alling everyone's (naively-given) data for years, and they're trying to curb that. great, though why not teach people about noscript, ublock and tor etc

kayront: it's just a slow ship to turn

I think it will

Well, I hope it will

but ok, i get it. however by the same principle, and given the vast amount of evidence supporting the nearly continuous abuse of human rights by governments across continents and time... you'd expect some consistency

Sure. But they also gave your rights as well

If we turn now we will go down 🎿 We are on a steady course up since march

So it goes both ways

i understand what you mean but i do dispute the phrasing midipoet

they gave me nothing. if they gave it to me, then i was born without the rights

No, I know. I just think it's more helpful to take a bigger picture view

if they gave the rights, the rights can be revoked

kayront: well, they can't really as they ensured that wasn't possible

then why does it feel less and less free with each passing year man?

even disregarding the whole corona madness, the repercussions of which i think we'll be feeling for years to come, but i hope i'm wrong about that (and dont' want to veer too much OT)

but anyhow, it's a moot point at some level. we have this organization now and government is a reality. the question is, are we going to be docile digital slaves and have our lives on archive for anonymous (to us - hah) people to browse through at their leisure, or not

Ofc is will, And a Electronic private blockchain like Govenment currency will be implemented as some kind of Saving method, Adding constant tracking of every single persons economic history , Automatic taxsation and social scoring that probably will end up with people who loose money or cant leave the country or something like that

only if people like us who can see the problem well before it's become inevitable stand idly and do nothing

this is not china, we have a saying in the matter

But we are not using it,

So they do what they like

i think we're using it right now

FED printing as much money as they want, People begging for more free cash so they dont have to work?

in the dystopian worlds we hope never come to light, this conversation wouldn't even be happening, because we'd be too scared to be rounded up and shot

It is the dream for the government.

The digital cash is coming closer faster then ever

Or, first the crash of the dollar. Ofc

yes monerod[m], both government-controlled, permissioned, traceable digital cash and people begging for free monies is expected. it's human nature

the question is, will people be educated enough on such matters and reject it?

Yes, But it is not " Using our say in the mather" in the correct way.

It is exactly what they want

many people in power (and otherwise) want many things

it doesn't mean they win by default

only if there's no opposition

heck, think about it, the very fact that monero exists at all, that's a very big fat middle finger to such systems of control

And i am saying there is no opposition, Once they have control of everyones funds, They are fucked

<kayront "heck, think about it, the very f"> Indeed

but there is opposition. maybe not enough, not yet. but more and more people understand the issues at stake

your average joe/jane on the street? no, not yet

Yeah once they see the results of this ned digital cash they will understand,

and as long as we can discuss such things without (much) fear of persecution, i do believe more and more will come to know about alternatives

I just hope they will be able to buy money with it

it's easy to be fatalistic about this stuff monerod[m]

* Yeah once they see the results of this new digital cash they will understand,

but remember, if you see the problem, and you don't do anything to solve it, you know where it leads

it could be as simple as onboarding a dozen new users every year and ask them to do the same. anything is better than nothing

There is a good reason for why i think.

It is the road that we are on a formula 1 car with the pedal to the metal

as i said previously, in many of my private dealings, XMR is exchanged.

the nice weed this afternoon? paid with XMR. several classes i'm taking ? paid with XMR

where there's a will there's a way

and little by little it grows, and grows, and grows

or - you throw down the towel and scream injustice, and it doesn't

Indeed, i can buy fruits with XMR locally :)

nice

can't say I ever did that, but I would love to

speaking of which, whatever happened to that point of sale project? kasisto was it

Im saying that this fatalistic future for 90% of humans will be extremely bullish for Monero. Btw

<kayront "speaking of which, whatever happ"> Never herd of it? Need to check it out

btw

nitter.net/pic/media%2FEfLsFqCUcAAFoey.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall <--- this fox is begging to be memed

for any resident memelords..

:D

😆

"please FATF, mercy!"

:D

"i don't give out my viewkey on the first date"

ok ok, I'll stop

kayront: because "rights" arent definitive, they are sort of loosely defined, according to theory and practice. They adjust according to social norms, court rulings, and general understandings of humanity/society/reality/epistemology.

woof. Well what a past few days it's been, huh?

rehrar!

endogenic!

💙

dsc_ will you pr 14 word key support to monero / what's the comptability story there?

why 14?

when emoji id?

endogenic: its out there, in the ether!

eh?

github.com/tevador/monero-seed <== link against that and you're good to go

dude this looks awesome

ikr

integration took less than a day

and tevador told me it works (tm)(c)

sooo

ill share a video

sec

but

without enough research i'd question randomness security

endogenic: yes?

hey man

talk after..?

oh wait

on randomness sec

i guess the extra bits are beyond the random bits

mbaf

bad

haha monero

so touchy these days!!

endogenic: i.imgur.com/CN3K2EP.mp4

sexy

cool name :)

:)

Ohhhhhh

gross

My body is ready for another Monero GUI 👀

monero has a gui?

wen feather?

Don’t say #soon dsc_

.soon

DONT DO IT

lol

Damn it

.barolo

.moon

<niocbrrrrrr "monero has a gui?"> You just use CLI don’t you

yeah I thought that's all they had

Welcome to 2020 my friend

monero only has trolls

Privacy has a pretty face

not even privacy

.bbl

keep crushing, dsc_

on it

is it just an optics thing that makes me think that 14 words is less safe/secure than 24/25?

If the encryption that is used to make the seed is broken it will not matter.

But yeah, a small amount of intelligence makes u realize it is harder to brute force a key that is longer then another

monerod[m]: Some discussion on the topic here: old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/h8…ept_14word_mnemonic_seed_for_monero monero-project/monero #6639

It's not about length, it's about entropy

They aren't the same

It's not the length that matters, it's how you use it sarang

-__-