06:05:14 <Inge-> LIFO?
06:06:28 <Inge-> xmrscott[m]: in .no they prep your tax return, and if you are fine with it don't have to do anything at all. But if you disagree yiu can amend it to your hearts content.
06:07:25 <xmrscott[m]> As it should be
07:19:09 <midipoet> Inge-: Last In First Out. Is handy for calculating cryptocurrency tax returns if you have held for a while.
07:43:42 <Inge-> ah
07:44:26 <Inge-> I kind of naively believe you can take out whichever ones you want
07:57:17 <midipoet> LOL
07:58:04 <midipoet> choose your outputs wisely, for they may carry untold burden
08:27:02 <Inge-> Monero for lyfe
08:27:13 <Inge-> sweep_single is your friend
08:27:53 <midipoet> :-)
08:28:13 <midipoet> sweep_single: the log for all logs
09:43:38 <kayront> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FEfLsFqCUcAAFoey.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
09:43:40 <kayront> adorable
09:43:42 <kayront> also, very memable :D
09:43:50 <kayront> "plix don't ban me!"
09:55:48 <kayront> <midipoet> Do people here worry about taxes? --> probably not what you meant when you asked the question, but personally my main gripe with them is being forced to subsidize things that I find morally and/or ethically abhorrent. that's profoundly disempowering imo. it ought to be possible to limit usage of each person's tax money to certain categories that they approve of
09:56:48 <kayront> never really understood the whole 'i have my right to the fair share [of other peoples money]!!' angle
09:58:38 <midipoet> kayront: sure, i get the ethos. however, i am not sure if people have the capacity to understand how 'centralised money pots' should be spent. they can maybe understand where it 'should not' - ie war, but it's harder for them to determine the distribution of their 'shoulds', if that makes sense.
09:58:46 <kayront> and specifically as they pertain to crypto, i find it abhorrent that in most countries people have to disclosure how much crypto they have. does anyone really think the government databases won't be hacked in time? the fact that cryptos are bearer assets present a completely different risk profile, there is no one to call for restitution after the local mobsters come knocking on the door because they got your name, pic, address and
09:58:46 <kayront> known-to-have crypto amounts from some database
09:59:37 <kayront> (same problem with KYC, as I suspect will become evident in due time)
10:00:14 <kayront> sure midipoet, i get that too. perhaps it could be opt-out, as in, your money is spendable for any category, and then if it bothers you you can go and disable individual categories as you please
10:05:35 <kayront> it could also serve as a last line of defense against political tricks that we're so familiar with, like passing legislation piggiebacked on other, vaguely unrelated stuff, to give but one example. legislate all you want, if the people decide not to foot the bill.. it won't happen. in theory, anyway
10:18:21 <midipoet> kayront: i would imagine that it would be better if they said - you owe X amount - but allowed you to distribute where that money went (maybe in a transparent manner with BTC equivalent or something). if there was uneven distribution internally the government could then discuss the issues openly  with the electorate/senate potentially through election cycles, or something like that.
10:18:42 <midipoet> would also be a god manner to direct government efforts democratically
10:19:11 <midipoet> ie. everyone wants to spend money on health, school, children, and environment - well that's the mandate then...
10:19:37 <midipoet> and if a party wants to change the mandate, they can campaign for it (ie. please donate to the war fund, as country X is looking dodgy)
10:19:44 <midipoet> or something like that!
10:22:24 <kayront> yeah
10:22:57 <kayront> being forced to fund things you're diametrically opposed to is not good for human dignity, I believe.
10:23:51 <kayront> having the CHOICE would also likely reduce the temptation for the psychopath-types to try to reach positions of power, if the people have this last line of defense and can simply with a click of a button elect not to fund whatever shady scheme, this would be a strong deterrent
13:38:54 <dsc_> wzuppp
14:34:49 <xmrscott[m]> sup
14:37:11 <xmrscott[m]> <kayront "and specifically as they pertain"> Is this a thing in the EU, even if you don't have any taxable events w/ XMR?
15:10:46 <christnofskimn> hm. kinda new to using IRC, but is there a way to have hexchat save past chat logs even if I'm not signed in? or do I need to be signed in to see chat logs?
15:11:56 <ErCiccione[m]> christnofskimn: You need a bouncer for that. Basically a server which saves the chats while you are away
15:12:08 <sethsimmons> Or use Matrix instead of IRC :)
15:12:24 <sethsimmons> znc is a common IRC bouncer though, and one I've run in the past.
15:12:37 <sethsimmons> But I've certainly enjoyed making the switch to Matrix (which is bridged to IRC) instead
15:12:43 <xmrscott[m]> christnofskimn: Also, there is http://monerologs.net/ FWIW which can remove the need for logs if you use IRC exclusively
15:13:05 <xmrscott[m]> Granted it doesn't have all the channels though
15:13:53 <christnofskimn> Yeah I have a matrix client, but I'm trying to be better about siloing my communications into different applications. right now matrix is for work stuff
15:14:52 <christnofskimn> I really want to avoid turning matrix into email haha. when everythign goes into one client, the line between work and fun gets muddled all to hell
15:15:42 <christnofskimn> thanks for the links/tips sethsimmons, xmrscott
15:18:06 <dsc_> install irssi
15:18:09 <dsc_> its the future
15:18:44 <xmrscott[m]> screen + irssi to more exact
15:21:07 <dsc_> golden duo right there xmrscott[m]
15:21:15 <dsc_> albeit tmux is arguably better
15:25:00 <xmrscott[m]> good to know
15:26:51 <dsc_> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ronilaukkarinen/weed/master/screenshots/tmux.png
15:28:08 <dsc_> rumor has it if you run IRC in your terminal you will go to IRC heaven after you pass away
15:29:47 <christnofskimn> hm. will my cat be able to join me in IRC heaven?
15:31:11 <dsc_> If he never missed a PONG as per RFC1459 section 4.6.2 and 4.6.3 then he is eligible, yes
15:31:49 <christnofskimn> damn it. my cat is never standards complaint.
15:33:25 <dsc_> there goes your ISO certification
16:00:11 <christnofskimn> wait, I lose my certification if my cat is not standards compliant?
16:00:30 <christnofskimn> shit hope my boss never finds out
16:01:22 <christnofskimn> in all seriousness the ISO is both kind of amazing in that it exsists and is sort of usefull, but also increadibly frustrating in its complexity
16:24:49 <dsc_> christnofskimn: ya
16:33:41 <kinghat[m]> irc heaven 😂
16:37:46 <rehrar> Community meeting soon. 20 min.
16:59:48 <rehrar> Meeting starting now.
17:00:22 <endogenic> ohi
17:00:25 <rehrar> 1. Greetings.
17:00:30 <endogenic> ohi
17:00:33 <ArticMine> Hi
17:00:53 <xmrscott[m]> osu
17:01:04 <monerod[m]> 👋
17:01:12 <endogenic> ossssss
17:01:47 <rehrar> 2. MCW Updates
17:02:07 <rehrar> So quick recap. Justin and Doug have stepped down as MCW leadership. They've given control over to Core.
17:02:14 <ErCiccione> Hi
17:02:43 <rehrar> They'll be starting their own workgroup and news of that should be coming soon if you're interested.
17:03:06 <rehrar> We're not quite sure what this means in terms of things beyond meetings (i.e. coffee chats, youtube channel, etc).
17:03:06 <endogenic> MCW too big to fail?
17:03:16 <rehrar> Is there anything in particular that people want to keep around in this workgroup?
17:03:26 <endogenic> community meetings
17:03:30 <endogenic> this chan
17:03:52 <endogenic> what problem made them leave?
17:04:12 <rehrar> There's numerous posts about backlog about this. I'd rather not get into it here for the sake of time.
17:04:27 <endogenic> figured that was the case
17:04:46 <ErCiccione> I guess this biweekly meeting will keep running as usual no?
17:04:59 <rehrar> ye
17:05:02 <rehrar> I'll be running it.
17:05:07 <rehrar> And I may change up the schedule.
17:05:15 <rehrar> Well, I guess we can discuss that now.
17:05:27 <rehrar> Is there anything about these meetings that we don't like or that we like? Things we should add? Things we shouldn't?
17:05:55 <christnofskimn> this is my first community meeting
17:06:00 <christnofskimn> so not much input on that front
17:06:08 <rehrar> well, welcome! Glad you're here.
17:06:49 <ErCiccione> welcome christnofskimn :)
17:07:02 <ArticMine> welcome
17:07:15 <ErCiccione> I think the structure is fine as it is
17:07:26 <rehrar> aight if no further comments we'll move forward
17:07:35 <rehrar> 3. Community highlights
17:07:42 <vtnerd> hi
17:07:48 <rehrar> My apologies on the Revuo taking two weeks again. Defcon kicked my face in as usual.
17:08:01 <rehrar> I'll do a special two week issue today.
17:08:05 <SerHack> Hi
17:08:10 <rehrar> I've only had to do this one other time, so I think Revuo has a decent track record still.
17:08:23 <rehrar> Let's jump to Workgroup reports.
17:08:30 <rehrar> a. Daemon/CLI/GUI workgroup
17:08:45 <rehrar> dsc_ medusa_ dEBRUYNE?
17:09:10 <ErCiccione> medusa. Are they still around? :P
17:09:29 <rehrar> sometimes they come on ping
17:10:31 <endogenic> rehrar i cannot find any links on reddit
17:10:36 <endogenic> about that
17:11:03 <rehrar>  b. Localization workgroup
17:11:08 <rehrar> endogenic: we can talk after
17:11:26 <ErCiccione> Nothing new. We are looking for a norwegian translators
17:11:41 <ErCiccione> we have the entire website translated but not reviewed yet
17:11:45 <ErCiccione> oh
17:11:48 <monerod[m]> <ErCiccione "Nothing new. We are looking for "> In to English?
17:12:02 <ErCiccione> i also pushed the first round of translations for getmonero. Waiting for reviews then merge
17:12:25 <ErCiccione> monerod: no, English -> Norwegian
17:12:34 <ErCiccione> see https://translate.getmonero.org
17:13:18 <rehrar> c. Website workgroup
17:13:39 <ErCiccione> A lot of merges and a lot of cool stuf (RSS feed autodetection among other stuff)
17:14:02 <ErCiccione> I'm compiling my usual update as we speak. I think i will post it tomorrow on reddit
17:14:38 <rehrar> xmrhaelan you around?
17:14:41 <rehrar> thanks ErCiccione
17:14:52 <rehrar> if he is  then  d. Outreach workgroup
17:15:57 <rehrar> aight then
17:15:59 <rehrar> sarang you around?
17:16:00 <rehrar> for  e. Monero Research Lab
17:16:08 <ArticMine> I can comment
17:16:17 <rehrar> go for it
17:16:25 <ArticMine> the significant item is CLSAG
17:16:52 <ArticMine> the implication is smaller transaction sizes ~600 bytes
17:17:20 <ArticMine> and a reduction in fees. The fee per byte will reamin the same
17:17:31 <lh1008[m]> Here from the Outreach Workgroup
17:17:44 <lh1008[m]> Hello everyone
17:18:19 <rehrar> hold up lh1008[m]
17:18:23 <rehrar> let ArticMine finish and then you can go
17:18:35 <lh1008[m]> Sure
17:18:56 <sarang> Hi
17:19:06 <ArticMine> In any case this will be in the upcoming hard fork
17:19:07 <sarang> Sorry, was busy with weekend chores
17:19:16 <ArticMine> I will pass on to sarang
17:19:16 <rehrar> awesome! Is that it from you ArticMine?
17:19:19 <rehrar> cool
17:19:21 <rehrar> take it away
17:19:32 <sarang> Yeah, CLSAG is good to go, which is very excitign
17:19:50 <sarang> Otherwise, I may participate in ISO technical committee work on PII and privacy in blockchain technology
17:20:04 <sarang> Which I hope will be helpful to the broader ecosystem
17:20:24 <sarang> I'm finishing up some BP+ proofs-of-concept that would play nicely with our existing setup
17:20:38 <sarang> And a bunch of small tweaks and things to production and research code
17:20:44 <rehrar> sarang: speaking of that. Has anyone been in communication with the people that opened the CCS request?
17:20:53 <rehrar> on BP+
17:20:55 <sarang> For BP+? Yes, I have at least
17:20:58 <sarang> Others perhaps as well
17:21:03 <rehrar> what's the word?
17:21:38 <sarang> They are interested in either writing production code for Monero, or auditing/reviewing any other implementation that is written
17:22:01 <rehrar> ah, ok. So are we planning on doing the engineering in house then?
17:22:04 <sarang> We've been working together on some more accurate numbers (their initial timing comparisons do not hold up)
17:22:27 <sarang> I do not want the decision of whether or not to accept the current CCS to be left to me
17:23:00 <rehrar> ok. We'll get to that soon then. That it from you?
17:23:17 <sarang> Given the few people who I think are particularly qualified to review BP+ given expertise, having these researchers audit code (they couldn't audit code they write) seems like a good idea IMO
17:23:19 <sarang> That's about it, sure
17:23:38 <rehrar> cool deal.
17:23:39 <rehrar> lh1008[m]: you're up
17:24:08 <lh1008[m]> Okay
17:24:09 <lh1008[m]> So
17:25:09 <lh1008[m]> Triptych article has its final details. We wanted to sarang to take a look at it
17:25:22 <sarang> Oh sure, are there recent changes?
17:25:32 <lh1008[m]> I think xmrhaelan or thunderosa will be reaching sarang soon
17:25:38 <sarang> Sounds good
17:25:53 <lh1008[m]> Yes, the article has a final drat that need your review
17:26:04 <endogenic> final drat
17:26:09 <endogenic> 2rl
17:26:18 <lh1008[m]> The Spanish, Portuguese, and French translations are in production too
17:26:33 <lh1008[m]> Draft** oups
17:26:38 <sarang> heh
17:26:48 <sarang> lh1008[m]: just PM or mention when it's ready
17:27:09 <lh1008[m]> Yep I will
17:27:20 <rehrar> aight sounds good
17:27:21 <rehrar> so then
17:27:35 <lh1008[m]> The quickfacts is also going to be delivered this week
17:27:47 <lh1008[m]> And the calendar is almost done too
17:28:13 <lh1008[m]> Those would be to fulfill the second milestones from the 3 CCS round
17:28:57 <lh1008[m]> I think thunderosa an any time will give a more detailed update on the calendar, I'm working on the quickfacts
17:29:30 <rehrar> cool
17:29:39 <rehrar> anything else?
17:29:55 <lh1008[m]> The quickfacts will change a bit. We will make it more user friendly, a one page quickfacts instead of 3-4 pages we had
17:30:10 <lh1008[m]> And we are also working to update the meet-up-kit
17:30:24 <lh1008[m]> We don't have anything clear yet but is under our bulletpoints
17:30:43 <lh1008[m]> That would be it :)
17:30:55 <rehrar> awesome. Thanks for the update.
17:31:04 <rehrar> Let's do some CCS Update stuff. Mostly focusing on the BP+ discussion.
17:31:14 <lh1008[m]> Thank you for the space and time
17:31:44 <rehrar> So what needs to be decided is whether or not we merge the proposal as is (meaning they do the engineering) or whether we'd like to engineer the thing in-house and have them edit their proposal for an audit. Correct sarang?
17:31:55 <rehrar> the idea being that we know the Monero codebase better and could probably engineer better and for less time and cost than they
17:32:03 <rehrar> but still keeping around their valuable expertise
17:32:10 <sarang> FWIW I am not arguing we could do it "better"
17:32:10 <rehrar> something which they seemed open to
17:32:21 <sarang> Nor am I speaking for them
17:32:51 <sarang> The proposers were very open to the idea of auditing another implementation, FWIW, and said they would update the CCS (or just make a new one) once a timeline and plan is set
17:33:16 <sarang> Everyone should read the proposal themselves, as well as the comments and notes on it
17:33:28 <sarang> Link: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/156
17:34:39 <sarang> Familiarity with the Monero codebase and test framework is certainly something that is likely to be a factor in any timeline, but it's worth noting that BP+ is still very new anyway
17:35:11 <sarang> The size benefits are nontrivial, but I don't see that there's a particular rush to deploy (especially given the likely network upgrade schedule)
17:35:13 <rehrar> for newcomers here can you briefly summarize what BP+ would do for us?
17:35:32 <sarang> Bulletproofs+ (BP+) is a modification to Bulletproofs (BP), which we use in the protocol
17:35:51 <sarang> BP -> BP+ would give a 96-byte reduction in transaction size
17:36:04 <sarang> With effectively the same verification time (marginally faster, but not much)
17:36:33 <sarang> Note that there is a 0% chance it would be ready for the fall upgrade
17:37:21 <rehrar> does anybody have any thoughts on this?
17:38:35 <sarang> Also note that as you read the CCS, the relative timing data in Table 1 should not be used (this is discussed in later comments) to make decisions
17:38:59 <sarang> That data uses different methods for BP than for BP+ in a way that isn't comparable
17:40:11 <niocbrrrrrr> From the discussion in MRL it seems to me that Arcturus is currently the best candidate for the next protocol.  Any idea when it would be ready for implementation?  Thinking of timeline comparison
17:40:47 <rehrar> benefits from BP+ would carry over into our next gen tech, correct sarang?
17:43:19 <sarang> Keep in mind that Arcturus relies on a novel and untested cryptographic hardness assumption
17:43:48 <sarang> One reviewer presented a claim about a break to that assumption, but I disagree
17:43:57 <sarang> (will discuss this at the next MRL meeting)
17:44:18 <sarang> Deploying it would carry risk
17:44:26 <sarang> Triptych does not rely on this assumption
17:45:07 <rehrar> with all of these disclaimers in mind
17:46:00 <rehrar> does BP+ carry over to Triptych and/or Arcturus?
17:46:01 <rehrar> benefits
17:46:07 <sarang> Yes
17:46:10 <rehrar> wee
17:46:22 <sarang> Both BP and BP+ are independent of Triptych/Arcturus/CLSAG/MLSAG
17:46:31 <sarang> You can mix and match as you like
17:46:39 <sarang> and the benefits come along for the ride
17:47:19 <rehrar> cool
17:47:20 <rehrar> thanks
17:47:24 <rehrar> I'm going to skip over the Defcon stuff. We'll schedule a meeting in #monero-defcon for that.
17:47:31 <sarang> Anyway, IMO provided that BP+ gets additional eyes over time, it seems a good idea
17:48:09 <sarang> But give that it wouldn't be deployed until sometime next year (depending on desired upgrade schedule), I think it's worth giving the preprint time to receive additional scrutiny
17:48:27 <rehrar> ye. No rush.
17:48:35 <sarang> Having the CCS proposers around for code or audit seems like a definite win; they have expertise with it
17:49:03 <rehrar> ok
17:49:05 <rehrar> Open ideas time!
17:49:20 <dsc_> no
17:49:23 <dsc_> I have an update
17:49:23 <rehrar> This is the part where anyone can suggest anything that they'd like to see happen, or whatever, in the Monero Community Workgroup, or in general.
17:49:25 <rehrar> ok go dsc_
17:49:35 <dsc_> For the past 1.5 years I have been working on a new Monero GUI for desktop written in C++ almost from scratch using libwallet, QtWidgets. Since 2-3 months I have dedicated substantial time in getting it finished and currently most functionality is working - so it's just polishing now. This new wallet has several benefits over the official Monero GUI, I will provide details at a later point in time.
17:49:41 <dsc_> In short; It is remote node minded and the interface resembles Bitcoin's Electrum. You are of course free to connect to your own node, just like in the GUI. The wallet will ship with Tor embedded (just like Brave). Fully open-source, MIT license (probably). Coin/output control / single_sweep. Multi-sig. 14 word seeds. A user-interface that inherits from your OS's style, and a wallet that "feels"
17:49:47 <dsc_> fast and performant to use.
17:49:58 <endogenic> nice
17:50:03 <dsc_> I currently have a CCS proposal going for the official GUI, in which I brought up my thoughts on supporting Purism's Librem 5. I stated in my CCS that the current codebase is not fit for such implementation due to much of libwallet's business logic being implemented in QML (the mixing of business logic in the presentation layer) and that a seperate/clean codebase would need to be developed. So I
17:50:09 <dsc_> took precaution in this new codebase to trivially support other GUI interfaces, such as ncurses, QML, or QtWidgets specifically for certain platforms/devices.
17:50:11 <endogenic> seed thing is interesting?
17:50:36 <endogenic> nice!
17:51:04 <endogenic> haha ye olde code complexity strikes again
17:51:06 <endogenic> what did endo say
17:51:11 <endogenic> factor that shit!
17:51:20 <rehrar> awesome dsc_ !
17:51:20 <dsc_> It's just polishing now, and the many exciting features I will share in a video soon. I will also launch the new website associated with this new project. When that is released, the community will be able to see and what they can expect from this forthcoming release - and possibly also critique. I will try to get a CCS payout soon, for the upcoming 2 months leading up to release. But we'll discuss
17:51:26 <dsc_> that after I presented my work ;)
17:51:40 <ArticMine>  Purism's Librem 5 is both a desktop and a phone in one device
17:51:41 <dsc_> thx :) hard work but worth it, gonna be cool
17:52:07 <dsc_> ArticMine: Purism suggested to include "a Monero app" by default when you buy the device
17:52:10 <endogenic> this is for wownero's dominance over monero isnt it
17:52:13 <endogenic> calling it
17:52:23 <ArticMine> Yes I know
17:53:41 <ArticMine> but what makes it interesting is the need to support both a phone and desktop interface on one device
17:54:24 <kinghat[m]> will work fine on any of the nix phone ports, for example the pine64 phone?
17:54:45 <ArticMine> It is literally the phone becomes the tower part of a desktop
17:55:19 <kinghat[m]> i know there are a few disros out there working on DEs for these phones.
17:55:22 <dsc_> ArticMine: Indeed, most/all business logic is in something I call "AppContext" - the rest is just presentation. So multiple devices/platforms could be supported.
17:55:47 <dsc_> Maybe GUI workgroup has other plans, maybe they want to port the official GUI.
17:56:02 <dsc_> But I fear for it's complexities there. Anyway, food for thought.
17:56:07 <dsc_> I will present everything soon :P
17:56:35 <rehrar> awesome. Thanks for the update.
17:56:39 <rehrar> NOW open ideas time.
17:56:41 <dsc_> Another thing to note; i co-created this with another Monero member
17:56:45 <dsc_> thanks
17:57:34 <rehrar> I have an idea.
17:57:48 <rehrar> 'A things the community would like to see rehrar do before the next meeting'
17:57:56 <midipoet> dsc_: are you allowed to say what member?
17:58:22 <rehrar> As you guys know, I work for the Core Team, and I do what I feel needs to be done. I'm answerable to Core who is answerable to the community. So indirectly I'm answerable to the community, but not directly.
17:58:27 <dsc_> midipoet: he likes to be called "tobtoht"
17:58:32 <dsc_> very mysterious person
17:58:36 <rehrar> That said, I want to start getting community input for what they think urgent tasks are.
17:58:38 <dsc_> >_<
17:58:50 <rehrar> I can do this in the Monero Community meeting, as the major workgroup leaders tend to show up.
17:58:53 <midipoet> dsc_: if it's just your imaginary friend, that's ok too.
17:59:00 <dsc_> midipoet: (he has previously comitted to GUI)
17:59:03 <rehrar> useful or nah?
17:59:15 <christnofskimn> I think thats a good idea rehrar
17:59:36 <rehrar> christnofskimn has spoken! so shall it be
17:59:43 <midipoet> rehrar: sort of like a "community to-do list"?
17:59:49 <kinghat[m]> urgent task: create LLC 🤤
17:59:55 <rehrar> midipoet: yes, but a non-binding one
18:00:25 <midipoet> rehrar: so a suggestion box
18:00:37 <rehrar> yes
18:00:40 <christnofskimn> First suggestion: updating the thingy that says the next community meeting is two days from now?
18:00:52 <christnofskimn> the irc channel descritpion i think
18:01:28 <midipoet> rehrar: I would like to know who the mods are of this channel now
18:01:32 <rehrar> me
18:01:47 <midipoet> and is the CoC still binding?
18:01:53 <rehrar> any volunteers?
18:02:00 <rehrar> I do not foresee the CoC to continue, no.
18:02:42 <rehrar> but the workgroup now belongs to core which does a good job of implementing community desire
18:02:50 <rehrar> so if the community here decides they still want it, then we can keep it
18:02:52 <rehrar> what do you all say?
18:03:11 <sgp_> You know my opinion lol
18:03:13 <midipoet> I would have to read it again
18:03:20 <midipoet> it seemed pretty fair
18:03:36 <midipoet> I just wanted to know what the "rules" were now
18:04:16 <rehrar> that's in flux
18:04:22 <rehrar> I don't think anyone has everything nailed down atm
18:04:28 <rehrar> if you have some suggestions go ahead
18:04:46 <rehrar> We're over time for the meeting, so I'll officially call it done here. Anyone who needs or wants to leave can.
18:04:57 <rehrar> But the discussion will continue here if you want to stay.
18:05:30 <christnofskimn> I had suggestion/question, are there any ongoing legislative efforts?
18:05:46 <rehrar> meaning?
18:06:30 <christnofskimn> like, does monero have any desire to engage in shaping gov policy, or even just keeping track of policy
18:06:34 <sgp_> christnofskimn: closest thing is the legal whitepaper, or our conversations with Coin Center
18:07:19 <rehrar> I would certainly like to shape policy in privacy's favor
18:07:46 <sgp_> christnofskimn: are you in #monero-compliance
18:07:59 <christnofskimn> the irc channel yes
18:08:09 <endogenic> Oh it was the LLC thing?
18:08:40 <endogenic> MRL put work into the compliance thing but i dont see them called out
18:08:47 <endogenic> fyi
18:08:57 <sarang> ?
18:09:21 <christnofskimn> not really endogenic, curious about if monero has ears to the ground on potential policy changes, like if the IRS wants to tax xmr differently, or if congress mandates encryption backdoors that make the coin illegal in the US
18:09:21 <sgp_> endogenic: different efforts. Yours seemed to be mostly independent
18:09:32 <endogenic> well when you take our paper and dont communicate
18:09:38 <endogenic> what do you expect weirdo
18:09:47 <IRS> yes, we will tax xmr
18:09:52 <endogenic> ^
18:10:12 <endogenic> christnofskimn: that wont be monero anymore
18:10:24 <ArticMine> <christnofskimn> like, does monero have any desire to engage in shaping gov policy, or even just keeping track of policy <---- I would say yea
18:10:32 <ArticMine> We have to
18:10:34 <sgp_> christnofskimn: are you aware of some groups who are doing this for crypto now?
18:10:44 <sgp_> Probably best to start there
18:10:51 <sarang> What does it mean for "Monero" to engage in advocacy?
18:11:05 <sarang> Workgroups are generally free to operate as they see fit, within reason
18:12:05 <christnofskimn> sarang it depends on the outcomes you want to see. can range from an open letter/petition to making meetings with regulators, congressmen, or providing expert testimony at comittee meetings
18:12:14 <sgp_> I can put you in contact with Coin Center if you haven't already spoken to them
18:12:17 <sarang> Sure, but who writes this, and whom do they claim to represent
18:12:21 <christnofskimn> and spg_ not really, any suggestions on some?
18:12:26 <sarang> "We represent Monero" seems sketch
18:12:30 <christnofskimn> that would be great
18:12:42 <sgp_> christnofskimn: okay, remind me Monday :)
18:12:44 <ErCiccione[m]> christnofskimn: Individuals are free to work on whatever they want to. Also by forming workgroups and whatnot. There isn't a central entity called "Monero" who shapes what should be done and what not.
18:12:59 <ArticMine> As a community we cannot allow the narrative to be taken over by those that are hostile to Monero. I mean not just US but also EU etc
18:13:20 <sarang> No, but claiming to represent multiple different communities rubs me the wrong way
18:13:37 <sarang> There are a wide range of views within the communities about what regulation should or shouldn't look like
18:13:37 <rehrar> he's new to the meetings guys
18:13:53 <rehrar> doesn't know the ruffled feathers that come with saying 'monero' does something
18:13:54 <rehrar> give him a break
18:14:00 <sarang> I'm not accusing of christnofskimn of doing this; I mean more generally
18:14:01 <ErCiccione[m]> sarang: I don't think that was never implied. They are probalby just unaware of Monero's structure
18:14:03 <sgp_> He can represent our workgroup if needed, we'll make it work
18:14:04 <sarang> Apologies if it sounded like that christnofskimn
18:14:30 <christnofskimn> no worries chaps. all this feedback is great
18:14:50 <ErCiccione[m]> Isn't the pupose of the compliance workgroup exactly that tho?
18:15:08 <sgp_> Who is in charge of that? Lol
18:15:16 <sgp_> We've never discussed the scope
18:15:41 <ErCiccione[m]> Oh. personally i don't know much about it. I just know it exists :)
18:15:55 <sgp_> Really all we have done is written one blog post
18:16:23 <sgp_> https://web.getmonero.org/2019/12/05/funds-travel-rule.html
18:16:38 <sarang> Advocacy can happen without claiming to represent any particular person's or group's views
18:16:51 <christnofskimn> I would point out that the decentralized nature of all this could diminish impact any testimony. Like, its more impactful if a member of the core team provides testimony/expert opinion on why givin policy proposal is bad/good, if its just a workgroup with only a tangental connection to core devs, less of an impact
18:17:28 <christnofskimn> this is a general rule of thumb btw.
18:17:32 <ErCiccione[m]> That's the downside of being an open community with no central authority :)
18:17:39 <sethsimmons> This may be something more fit for Coin Center etc with Monero community members helping them drive policy/testimonial, etc.
18:17:58 <sgp_> christnofskimn: the best you can do is represent a related workgroup that agrees
18:18:12 <ErCiccione[m]> yeah. Or invent a role for yourself
18:18:24 <sgp_> That too
18:18:25 <ErCiccione[m]> that sounds official
18:18:29 <sethsimmons> Heh
18:18:50 <sethsimmons> Or let a crappy cryptocurrency news network invent a title for you 😂
18:19:02 <christnofskimn> I'm acttually not one for giving testimony myself. what I usually do keep track of stuff thats going through the legislative process and notify stakeholders when their testimony/imput could be needed
18:19:20 <sgp_> christnofskimn: that's super useful
18:19:23 <sarang> Keeping an eye on relevant regulatory actions and directions seems very very useful
18:19:25 <sethsimmons> <christnofskimn "I'm acttually not one for giving"> Sounds like that could be super useful for the community to stay more informed!
18:19:26 <christnofskimn> that and orginize grassroots campaigns
18:19:34 <sethsimmons> Also sounds amazing
18:19:39 <sgp_> I wish I knew to comment on the bitlicense recent discussions
18:19:46 <sarang> ikr sgp_
18:20:09 <ArticMine> The EU is coming up
18:20:38 <ErCiccione[m]> If the compliance workgroup doesn't have a path in mind yet, that could be it
18:21:04 <christnofskimn> so if folks are interested in knowing about legislation/rules that could affect monero, where/who sohuld I be putting that info?
18:22:04 <sethsimmons> Join #monero-compliance as a first step I’d imagine.
18:22:06 <christnofskimn> complience channel?
18:22:08 <sethsimmons> And share there
18:22:39 <sethsimmons> Not sure past that honestly
18:22:40 <christnofskimn> coo. I love the disclaimer that its not legal advice in the description of the channel
18:28:59 <midipoet> I am in the compliance workgroup and have been trying to work with the EC on many things related to AML/KYC/Blockchain through work. Mostly I do it on my own back.
18:29:21 <midipoet> There was talk of an effort to bring stakeholders together through privacyseries.org
18:29:28 <midipoet> Covid slowed that down a lot
18:29:48 <kayront> how are they coming to terms with the fact that anonymous private digital cash is here midipoet ?
18:30:06 <kayront> i always imagine that's not exactly what they have in mind when they announce they want to support "blockchain"
18:30:07 <midipoet> I also have a relatively important journal paper on this coming out very soon, which included a host of perspectives from the Monero community, and broader in the the regulatory space
18:30:26 <sethsimmons> Exciting stuff!
18:30:27 <midipoet> kayront: to be honest, it's a much wider discussion
18:30:48 <kayront> do share midipoet
18:30:58 <midipoet> It included e2e encryption, the Privacy Directive, the NIS Directive, and the new Cybersecurity Act
18:31:37 <midipoet> I have shared my view on crypto / AML/ KYC a number of times in compliance regarding identity, but it sort of got shut down
18:31:49 <xmrscott[m]> :(
18:31:54 <midipoet> Identity is the key to this moving forward. I cannot stress this enough
18:32:09 <kayront> identity as in no anonymous txs?
18:32:20 <sethsimmons> Any good resources for your view midipoet? Would love to read more.
18:32:36 <midipoet> anonymity is pretty much already gone in Europe. McFadden Vs Sony case
18:32:40 <midipoet> 2016
18:32:54 <midipoet> Unless there is new jurisprudence at the European Court of Justice
18:33:07 <midipoet> sethsimmons: yes...hang ob
18:33:28 <kayront> i am not familiar with the case
18:33:44 <kayront> but that seems quite the statement, considering cash is perfectly legal, and tor/i2p/etc also
18:34:47 <christnofskimn> Something can be legal in the sense that there is no specific enforment,
18:35:32 <midipoet> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/5daprP6b/Burke-Who_is_Browsing.pdf
18:35:42 <midipoet> That's the legal background
18:36:18 <midipoet> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/DESkBma9/Wang_DeFilippi-Identity.pdf
18:36:22 <kayront> midipoet: btw, when us ay you've been working with the EC, is that in person, email, what?
18:36:35 <midipoet> That's part of the wider discussion ^ the Wang paper
18:37:04 <sethsimmons> Thanks for the shares 🙂
18:37:35 <midipoet> kayront: I work on a current H2020 Project, that feeds directly into the AML/KYC/identity discussion. That was what we were tasked to do.
18:38:00 <midipoet> The tool is being developed for deployment into the financial services sector
18:38:38 <christnofskimn> oh, I know folks here probably are not interested, but there are some opertunities for tech folks to get paid to be on US congressional staff
18:38:49 <christnofskimn> https://www.techcongress.io/apply
18:38:58 <midipoet> christnofskimn: nice share
18:39:07 <kayront> midipoet: how many of the people there have actually used moreno?
18:39:16 <midipoet> kayront: what people?
18:39:28 <kayront> whoever it is you're in touch with @EC
18:39:39 <christnofskimn> deadline to apply for that particular fellowship is aug 27th
18:40:07 <midipoet> actually used it? I am not sure. Know about? Probably all of them. Monero (or its tech) is mentioned all over the place in official documents
18:40:19 <midipoet> I am not sure if you realise. Mostly always in a positive light
18:40:27 <midipoet> The EC aren't idiots
18:40:43 <midipoet> They are bound by their perspective, but they understand things also
18:41:04 <midipoet> like, they could have NOT created the GDPR for example
18:41:06 <kayront> i do not realize at all, which is why I'm making the questions. hard to tell over text maybe, just being very direct
18:41:27 <midipoet> I think it's foolish to think that it's always state Vs us
18:41:33 <midipoet> That's always been my view
18:41:38 <midipoet> I know others think differently
18:41:44 <kayront> i do however default to a certain cynicism about such matters, that's for sure. but that's probably obvious enough :p
18:41:52 <midipoet> Oh sure. I wonder as well
18:42:08 <kayront> (given the ever-degrading state of affairs over the last 20 yrs esp. when it comes to this stuff)
18:42:11 <midipoet> But the only way to change things is to try and change things, right?
18:42:22 <kayront> yes, you're doing god's work
18:42:26 <midipoet> And it's better "politically" to do it in a friendly manner
18:42:51 <christnofskimn> eh, midipoet not always. Depends on *how* you are trying to change things.
18:43:02 <kayront> i've often thought about contacting some EU officials or the UN and discussing matters, but I fear the mentalities about KYC/AML are so entrenched that simply writing, no matter how eloquently, is probably not enough
18:43:10 <christnofskimn> if your trying to work with regulators directly then yes for sure
18:43:14 <kayront> and besides, coincenter has done a pretty good job at making the case for digital cash
18:43:31 <midipoet> kayront: you'd be surprised
18:43:37 <christnofskimn> but you can get a lot of change done by applying negative public pressure
18:43:45 <xmrscott[m]> <christnofskimn "https://www.techcongress.io/appl"> Ooo, thanks for highlighting. Might apply myself assuming this isn't a full time 40 work week dealio which it isn't as far as I can tell
18:44:15 <kayront> lately i've been focusing on onboarding new users instead, everyone from my dealer (lol) to my teachers now takes it
18:44:16 <christnofskimn> xmrscott[m] Im not sure, but it might involve moving to DC
18:44:17 <midipoet> taxjustice.net is worth a look. They care about jurisdictional arbritage between states
18:44:20 <kayront> i can be .. very persuasive
18:44:24 <midipoet> My company works with them as well
18:44:57 <kayront> i'm also back to chatting up randoms in the street and talking about such things, obviously with a much lower success rate
18:45:04 <kayront> but it gets them searching and it gets them reading
18:45:17 <xmrscott[m]> christnofskimn: Technically my company is WFH until end of at least June, at least for now, I imagine given pandemic surely they'd allow WFH. Not to mention wouldn't have to pay a 2.5K stipend
18:45:26 <xmrscott[m]> *moving stipend
18:45:54 <midipoet> kayront: you know, I asked concentre to help me a few times back a while ago. Blanked me every time. I am not sure if they are interested in anything but their own game
18:46:12 <midipoet> I ended up having to make contact with US regulators myself, with help from others
18:46:18 <kayront> i've tried getting in touch w them several times also, never any reply
18:46:22 <midipoet> Was sad, given the topic of the paper
18:46:26 <kayront> but they sure write sweet pieces and give good podcast interviews
18:47:04 <midipoet> kayront: I think they are just on their own mission. Not anyone elses. You would think a polite decline would be manageable mind you
18:47:05 <christnofskimn> xmrscott[m] on their info page says you gotta move"
18:47:06 <christnofskimn> Is remote participation in the fellowship possible?
18:47:06 <christnofskimn> Unfortunately, no. You will have to relocate to Washington, D.C. for the fellowship. Although we expect a significant amount of the fellowship work to occur virtually until we have a vaccine, there will likely be times you will need to be in person. Fellows have continued to, on occasion, staff Members of Congress at Committee hearings and during floor votes and you will need to be local for those occasions.
18:47:34 <xmrscott[m]> Ah, looks like fulltime to as well, oh well: https://www.womenwhocode.com/jobs/6686
18:47:34 <kayront> man, i'm just afraid that unless we can raise awareness of this tech fast enough, trigger-happy regulators are going to ruin the party for all of us - and worse, for people (that'd be the other 99.999999%) who dont' even realize what tool just got taken off their future hands, why, and why it's important
18:48:03 <christnofskimn> this is sadly fairly common. DC is a weird bubble
18:48:10 <kayront> i'd be 100% in XMR (crypto wise, i'm not that mad) if that wasn't a concern
18:48:25 <christnofskimn> totally agree kayront
18:49:04 <christnofskimn> although regulators are not very trigger-happy as a rukle
18:49:20 <kayront> it's so frustrating, even in crypto most people don't get it. although in all fairness whenever anything remotely privacy related is discussed on the usual channels now, way more often than not monero comes up in the comments
18:50:24 <kayront> midipoet: agree, it would be .. agreeable to at least reply and say, "thx but no thx"
18:51:29 <kayront> i think the dialogue in a society is at a very infantile level regarding privacy/anonymity. i have zero doubt that monroe has, is, or will be used for truly nefarious purposes, and anyone with their head screwed right knows it's only a matter of time
18:51:38 <kayront> but that's a very small minority of people
18:51:46 <midipoet> kayront: indeed. Lost quite a bit of respect for them over that
18:52:01 <midipoet> privacy has a strong place
18:52:07 <midipoet> Data protection has a strong place
18:52:16 <midipoet> Anonymity is less understood
18:52:26 <midipoet> It's actually quite a big knowledge gap
18:52:31 * monerod[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/XsCmOXmZhKfwfqQJMKlPlkya/message.txt >
18:52:59 <kayront> i agree that p&dp (ok, dubious abbreviations, heh) are better understood, but also, it seems to me that these protections don't really apply very much when it's the government coming after the data - i could be wrong
18:53:32 <midipoet> national security does usually get carte blanche
18:53:38 <kayront> for sure it seems to have clicked in their heads that corps have been free-for-alling everyone's (naively-given) data for years, and they're trying to curb that. great, though why not teach people about noscript, ublock and tor etc
18:54:19 <midipoet> kayront: it's just a slow ship to turn
18:54:23 <midipoet> I think it will
18:54:29 <midipoet> Well, I hope it will
18:54:39 <kayront> but ok, i get it. however by the same principle, and given the vast amount of evidence supporting the nearly continuous abuse of human rights by governments across continents and time... you'd expect some consistency
18:55:24 <midipoet> Sure. But they also gave your rights as well
18:55:28 <monerod[m]> If we turn now we will go down 🎿  We are on a steady course up since march
18:55:32 <midipoet> So it goes both ways
18:55:45 <kayront> i understand what you mean but i do dispute the phrasing midipoet
18:55:55 <kayront> they gave me nothing. if they gave it to me, then i was born without the rights
18:56:02 <midipoet> No, I know. I just think it's more helpful to take a bigger picture view
18:56:04 <kayront> if they gave the rights, the rights can be revoked
18:56:23 <midipoet> kayront: well, they can't really as they ensured that wasn't possible
18:57:00 <kayront> then why does it feel less and less free with each passing year man?
18:57:35 <kayront> even disregarding the whole corona madness, the repercussions of which i think we'll be feeling for years to come, but i hope i'm wrong about that (and dont' want to veer too much OT)
18:58:33 <kayront> but anyhow, it's a moot point at some level. we have this organization now and government is a reality. the question is, are we going to be docile digital slaves and have our lives on archive for anonymous (to us - hah) people to browse through at their leisure, or not
19:00:12 <monerod[m]> Ofc is will, And a Electronic  private blockchain like Govenment currency will be implemented as some kind of Saving method,  Adding constant tracking of every single persons economic history , Automatic taxsation and social scoring that probably will end up with people who loose money or cant leave the country or something like that
19:01:05 <kayront> only if people like us who can see the problem well before it's become inevitable stand idly and do nothing
19:01:23 <kayront> this is not china, we have a saying in the matter
19:01:38 <monerod[m]> But we are not using it,
19:01:42 <monerod[m]> So they do what they like
19:01:47 <kayront> i think we're using it right now
19:02:22 <monerod[m]> FED printing as much money as they want, People begging for more free cash so they dont have to work?
19:02:35 <kayront> in the dystopian worlds we hope never come to light, this conversation wouldn't even be happening, because we'd be too scared to be rounded up and shot
19:02:45 <monerod[m]> It is the dream for the government.
19:02:45 <monerod[m]> The digital cash is coming closer faster then ever
19:03:30 <monerod[m]> Or, first the crash of the dollar. Ofc
19:03:56 <kayront> yes monerod[m], both government-controlled, permissioned, traceable digital cash and people begging for free monies is expected. it's human nature
19:04:15 <kayront> the question is, will people be educated enough on such matters and reject it?
19:04:46 <monerod[m]> Yes, But it is not " Using our say in the mather" in the correct way.
19:04:46 <monerod[m]> It is exactly what they want
19:05:04 <kayront> many people in power (and otherwise) want many things
19:05:09 <kayront> it doesn't mean they win by default
19:05:15 <kayront> only if there's no opposition
19:05:34 <kayront> heck, think about it, the very fact that monero exists at all, that's a very big fat middle finger to such systems of control
19:06:12 <monerod[m]> And i am saying there is no opposition,  Once they have control of everyones funds, They are fucked
19:06:23 <monerod[m]> <kayront "heck, think about it, the very f"> Indeed
19:06:40 <kayront> but there is opposition. maybe not enough, not yet. but more and more people understand the issues at stake
19:06:50 <kayront> your average joe/jane on the street? no, not yet
19:07:09 <monerod[m]> Yeah once they see the results of this ned digital cash they will understand,
19:07:16 <kayront> and as long as we can discuss such things without (much) fear of persecution, i do believe more and more will come to know about alternatives
19:07:23 <monerod[m]> I just hope they will be able to buy money with it
19:08:18 <kayront> it's easy to be fatalistic about this stuff monerod[m]
19:08:23 <monerod[m]>  * Yeah once they see the results of this new digital cash they will understand,
19:08:32 <kayront> but remember, if you see the problem, and you don't do anything to solve it, you know where it leads
19:09:07 <kayront> it could be as simple as onboarding a dozen new users every year and ask them to do the same. anything is better than nothing
19:09:28 <monerod[m]> There is a good reason for why i think.
19:09:28 <monerod[m]> It is the road that we are on a formula 1 car with the pedal to the metal
19:09:33 <kayront> as i said previously, in many of my private dealings, XMR is exchanged.
19:10:01 <kayront> the nice weed this afternoon? paid with XMR. several classes i'm taking ? paid with XMR
19:10:06 <kayront> where there's a will there's a way
19:10:17 <kayront> and little by little it grows, and grows, and grows
19:10:28 <kayront> or - you throw down the towel and scream injustice, and it doesn't
19:10:33 <monerod[m]> Indeed, i can buy fruits with XMR locally :)
19:10:43 <kayront> nice
19:10:50 <kayront> can't say I ever did that, but I would love to
19:11:00 <kayront> speaking of which, whatever happened to that point of sale project? kasisto was it
19:11:26 <monerod[m]> Im saying that this fatalistic future for 90% of humans will be extremely bullish for Monero.  Btw
19:11:55 <monerod[m]> <kayront "speaking of which, whatever happ"> Never herd of it? Need to check it out
19:12:31 <kayront> btw
19:12:39 <kayront> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FEfLsFqCUcAAFoey.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall <--- this fox is begging to be memed
19:12:51 <kayront> for any resident memelords..
19:12:51 <kayront> :D
19:13:18 <monerod[m]> 😆
19:13:37 <kayront> "please FATF, mercy!"
19:13:39 <kayront> :D
19:14:04 <kayront> "i don't give out my viewkey on the first date"
19:14:09 <kayront> ok ok, I'll stop
21:22:52 <midipoet> kayront: because "rights" arent definitive, they are sort of loosely defined, according to theory and practice. They adjust according to social norms, court rulings, and general understandings of humanity/society/reality/epistemology.
21:38:42 <rehrar> woof. Well what a past few days it's been, huh?
21:43:01 <endogenic> rehrar!
21:44:01 <dsc_> endogenic!
21:44:15 <endogenic> 💙
21:44:57 <endogenic> dsc_ will you pr 14 word key support to monero / what's the comptability story there?
21:45:02 <endogenic> why 14?
21:45:10 <endogenic> when emoji id?
21:45:15 <dsc_> endogenic: its out there, in the ether!
21:45:22 <endogenic> eh?
21:45:29 <dsc_> https://github.com/tevador/monero-seed <== link against that and you're good to go
21:46:00 <endogenic> dude this looks awesome
21:46:03 <dsc_> ikr
21:46:11 <dsc_> integration took less than a day
21:46:19 <dsc_> and tevador told me it works (tm)(c)
21:46:31 <dsc_> sooo
21:46:38 <dsc_> ill share a video
21:46:42 <dsc_> sec
21:47:04 <endogenic> but
21:47:17 <endogenic> without enough research i'd question randomness security
21:47:32 <rehrar> endogenic: yes?
21:47:36 <endogenic> hey man
21:47:48 <endogenic> talk after..?
21:48:24 <endogenic> oh wait
21:48:27 <endogenic> on randomness sec
21:48:38 <endogenic> i guess the extra bits are beyond the random bits
21:48:41 <endogenic> mbaf
21:48:42 <endogenic> bad
21:49:11 <endogenic> haha monero
21:49:26 <endogenic> so touchy these days!!
21:52:23 <dsc_> endogenic: https://i.imgur.com/CN3K2EP.mp4
21:53:18 <endogenic> sexy
21:53:30 <endogenic> cool name :)
21:53:35 <dsc_> :)
21:53:52 <sethsimmons> Ohhhhhh
21:54:04 <endogenic> gross
21:54:26 <sethsimmons> My body is ready for another Monero GUI 👀
21:55:00 <niocbrrrrrr> monero has a gui?
21:55:01 <sethsimmons> wen feather?
21:55:23 <sethsimmons> Don’t say #soon dsc_
21:55:26 <dsc_> .soon
21:55:26 <monerobux> Two weeks™
21:55:26 <sethsimmons> DONT DO IT
21:55:30 <endogenic> lol
21:55:31 <sethsimmons> Damn it
21:55:35 <endogenic> .barolo
21:55:35 <monerobux> I just opened a 2004 barolo in your and all the devs honor -- https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-JvdfsIeb-s/hqdefault.jpg
21:55:45 <endogenic> .moon
21:55:45 <monerobux> ┗(°0°)┛
21:55:59 <sethsimmons> <niocbrrrrrr "monero has a gui?"> You just use CLI don’t you
21:56:28 <niocbrrrrrr> yeah I thought that's all they had
21:56:39 <sethsimmons> Welcome to 2020 my friend
21:56:43 <endogenic> monero only has trolls
21:56:45 <sethsimmons> Privacy has a pretty face
21:56:52 <endogenic> not even privacy
21:57:30 <endogenic> .bbl
21:57:30 <monerobux> please go back and re-read it, it's good
21:57:37 <endogenic> keep crushing, dsc_
21:58:58 <dsc_> on it
22:01:31 <midipoet> is it just an optics thing that makes me think that 14 words is less safe/secure than 24/25?
22:05:21 <monerod[m]> If the encryption that is used to make the seed is broken it will not matter.
22:05:21 <monerod[m]> But yeah, a small amount of intelligence makes u realize it is harder to brute force a key that is longer then another
22:22:51 <dsc_> monerod[m]: Some discussion on the topic here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/h8ekuk/proof_of_concept_14word_mnemonic_seed_for_monero/ https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/6639
23:04:16 <sarang> It's not about length, it's about entropy
23:04:28 <sarang> They aren't the same
23:32:38 <needmoney90> It's not the length that matters, it's how you use it sarang
23:46:33 <sarang> -__-