has Dr. Kim's talk been uploaded yet?

lza_menace: not uploaded at their request

aw man

Will be uploaded later

And you can see the streams

all good, will be patient. thanks sgp_

sgp_: there is an open issue about the redo of that page. I never started doing it because rehrar stated it's something he was working on. but that was more than 1 year ago, so i guess that's not the case anymore. If rehrar confirms he is not working on it i can put it in my todo list.

I hear that if someone asks to borrow your shower, that means sex, in japan.

Erciccione if you saw the list of things I need to get to you would laugh then cry then laugh then cry.

I actually started it. Got 60% of the way through. I'll look for the file in the morning. It's 1AM for me.

Inge-: Yes and no. Not really a conversation best for this channel though

<Inge- "I hear that if someone asks to b"> How can you ask someone to actually borrow the shower then?

Since I'm not running the meeting Saturday I'll probably skip this one and have lunch with family

I will sadly also miss due to family plans

xmrscott[m]: Dont mind me. I just cant use a computer. this was (obviously) meant for -pools :D

A clarification from me: old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i8…kgroup_is_preparing_for_the/g1gdj4z

Thank you Diego by making the clarification. Anyway you're a free man even if you work with the Core team. I know you know you're a free man, I'm saying it because working with the Core team brings responsibilities and you have always stepped in front of everyone when you have to say something and I myself admire that courage you have by doing so. Thank you rehrar for all the work you do as always inside the

community.

Rehrar: maybe worth making a dedicate post. That thread is already older than 24 hours, o don't know how many will read your post.

* i don't know

ErCiccione[m]: if you think it'll help. Although maybe it'll just make more drama.

I think it's an important communication, especially since you were listed as part of the LLC and you are a rappresentarive of core. If you are stepping back from the LLS, i think it's something important to share. I understand your concerns tho, so, whatever you think ot's best :)

Maybe you are right rehrar, probably better to post it after the news about the LLC will be officialy shared.

meh. Maybe you're correct ErCiccione[m]. I'll post it now.

I gotta deal with the consequences, eh? :P

Well. From what i got from reddit, i think people will be happy to read your post. Personally i think it's a good choice. But again, if you think it will spark more drama, makes sense to wait. But i do think it's an important news that should be shared sooner or later.

ok. Posted.

go brigade this with love ErCiccione[m]

?

I'm joking

I just want your attention :/

even for just a moment

you looking in my direction

however briefly

erm. Anyways. Back to work.

Well, that's a weird joke.

goodness I need a break from this place

Yeah. Sounds like it.

We originally intended to release a statement on behalf of the Monero Community Workgroup, but it fell through. Doug and I will have our own statement out shortly

is the outreach group going to incorporate as well?

kinghat[m]: that's up to them but probably not

<@rehrar> go brigade this

you are now banned from /r/monero

b@

bat?

b&

oof

recent conversation has me wondering: in the past, has there been discussion on patenting something created by the developers or workgroups?

have*

Rehrar: maybe i misunderstood your "go brigade this with love". Probably you meant "go brigate this by giving it some love", but seeing the storm of downvotes that justin and nm90 got on that reddit post for one moment i thought it was some subtle message in my direction.

But since that wouldn't make any sense, i probably misunderstood. Apologies.

Yes. I was joking to go brigade it in my favor. These kinds of jokes have been made before. That said, it was still probably in poor taste since tensions are high these past days.

So my apologies for the misunderstanding ErCiccione[m]

It has been an honor serving you all. This workgroup means so much to me as it has been a huge part of my life the last several years.

The king is dead! Long live the king!

As i said in private, i think separating the workgroup with the company is the way to go and creating a new workgroup for it is the right move. I can only wish you both good luck :)

<bemore "recent conversation has me wonde"> No. Pretty much everything used is FOSS bar GitHub itself. All out of the box stuff bar CCS

<ErCiccione[m] "As i said in private, i think se"> For sure, think this is the correct move to keep the MCW functioning separately and let the new workgroup provide services/focus to whichever workgroups want it.

Should be a good compromise, and should benefit Monero in the long run :)

Sethsimmons: i couldn't agree more. That's literally what i suggested here the day after the announcement on reddit :P

xmrscott[m] and sethsimmons: it's absolutely amazing to have you two onboard right away

Glad to assist. ☺

Happy to jump in, think this will be a great way for me to contribute!

sgp_: I think this was the right move after all this drama: gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/db745ee6b967e91b5318f2db04f4ee2f. I like the idea what you are trying to do. Do you still need some volunteers?

xmrpow: yes absolutely! We hope to have a name and channel up late today

(Correction: i made my suggestion during the discussion here on irc, not after the announcement on reddit)

sgp_: I dont understand why they were all going crazy about this name. Nobody cared about tari....

Tari does support xmr as well...

sgp: Reddit?

Sure that too

I'd be happy to help as well, either with with the workgroup or the new effort

sgp:What channel did you mean?

irc?

Yeah

ok

bemore: noted :)

sgp_ : Is the soly purpose of this workgroup to reach the goals you mentioned in the reddit thread?

Or do you have other goals as well on the agenda?

At the moment just those I think

sgp_: What about a fiat xmr bridge?

im very much not trying to get this tied up in money transmission

We're not an exchange and don't aspire to be one

"get needmoney90 arrested LLC."

pls no

probably too complicated with regulation.

There was this guy at librem promising that ;)

librem have promised a lot of things

and didnt deliver

i'll volunteer to help with server and software administration

I have a feeling we'll be juggling plenty of servers, I'll shoot you a pm later lza

aight

What about hosting some additional high bandwidth servers for rpc calls under this hood?

For the moment, the intent was to aggregate payments that Justin and myself were already making, so we weren't seeking external funds. If we did that we would have to figure out who's paying :)

But that's a good idea

It's in the general vein of things we would reasonably expect to host

"xmrpow" (matrix.to/#/@freenode_xmrpow:matrix.org): Didn't deliver... yet

(I say this as someone who has had one on order for years and is waiting for my 3GB ram variant PinePhone to ship

needmoney90: lza_menace: might as well cancel the forum because it won't be based and wowpilled

even the viagra spammers won't want to come, they're busy living the WOW life

) I don't think many people realize the sheer amount of work they've put in to mainline stuff the HW vendor was supposed to or the fact they created libhandy + Phosh

For the pricetag I would expect the people did expect the amount of work.

xmrscott: I do think at this price point you do need a working product and not a work in progress. Especially their marketing was bad, because they sold a dream and not a product ready for shipment.

I think at this point pine64 is much better

asymptotically: my thoughts exactly

They clearly tell you that is a product that is for tinkering.

Regarding the Flarum. Would it be best for core to host this? Or do people think the new workgroup should?

Why not the new workgroup? It would "decentralize" things in some way.

Fair enough I suppose. I've seen similar laybacks with the Turris MOX and the mycroft mk II so I'm probably jaded a decent amount to these kinds of things

As of now, besides IRC/Mattermost, core doesn't own any communication points

Core effectively owns the sub

Reddit is modded by third parties (and owned by Reddit), telegram is the same.

mailing list too?

Because of eizh?

eizh hasn't been active for three years, fluffy is the next mod

rehrar: But they do have control over the whole software part. I think that should be enough.

Inge-: ah. Good. Forgot that one.

xmrpow: reasonable

I guess people also use GitHub for comms for some reason.

I think splitting up the powers wouldnt be bad, because marketing people do need the software people and the other way round.

Also, I'd rather Core use war chest funds on more critical stuff like MRL

Flarum is nice, but nowhere near as critical. Reddit takeover/shutdown is not imminent

rehrar: Couldnt you host some gitlab instance?

Would be better than github.

isn't gitlab expensive?

There is an open source version

We have a gitlab

repo.getmonero.org

Decided to migrate off of it back to GitHub.

Why?

whaaa?

rehrar: Maybe hosting a second one as a fallback?

In short, the gitlab was started a couple years back with the goal of transitioning there in the future. We moved the site repo over first for testing purposes.

Inge-: self-hosted GitLab is free

cost wasn't the issue, ease of use was

amongst other things

After some time it was decided to abandon the idea for r reasons outlined in the post.

we have BackHub and individual backups of the GitHub repos, so I personally no longer consider this a major issue

fluffypony: but we haven't tried gogs yet

especially because we have outlined our use-case to BackHub

and they know that if GH blocks us we'll be using the backup to restore elsewhere (eg. self-hosted GitLab)

rehrar: half a dozen of one, six of the other

GH has really nailed the FOSS workflow down

fluffypony: the only truly decentralized way is for everyone to have the reps on their computers and push to everyone else.

the problem is that git is *just* the code

I'm shocked Monero is taking the easy way out in this regard.

it isn't issues, PRs, comments, wikis, etc.

I'm joking!!! :P

BackHub captures all of that

It would be nightmarish.

Speaking of, it's been discussed a couple of times, but should CCS be migrated to GH?

The functionality is already there for GH.

fluffypony: so you're saying we should switch to fossil instead of git? :D

xiphon: made it so when doing the ZCS for Zcoin because that's what they use.

asymptotically: no :-P

rehrar: I think so, but I'm not a CCS user (rather just a contributor) so users may have strong opinions

fluffypony: Ok, never have used github. Just some local git repo. But it does make sense.

xmrpow: yep - and the code currently exists on literally tens of thousands of computers

so we don't need to worry about that

But whose copy are you going to trust if it fails?

the ones with the signed commits and tags

xmrpow: we sign merge commits

so there's a GPG-signed tree to follow

ah ok

fluffypony: By the way: How is tari s testnet doing?

rehrar: before Core starts hosting more infra, I hope they have the maintenance/moderation covered

because if you are give that task... big yikes

rehrar: What happens to GitLab comments on CCS proposals if you move to GitHub?

Things like updates, reports, and important discussion happen there

Yeaaaah

Maybe don't touch it. :P

As far as hosting on GitHub goes, IIRC one reason was visibility and ease of onboarding contributors

Plus a lot of the CI stuff seems more mature, and it's free to FOSS projects AFAIK

Why not take advantage of free computing power?

Plus little things like proper SSH key support etc.

sgp_: why do you and needmoney90 have to step down from monero-community?

It is core controlled and apparently people dont want anyone associated with a corporation near it.

So we have left it under core, where it originally was.

needmoney90: I don't think that's true about not wanting anyone near a LLC near it.

People didn't want community to "become" an LLC

That's different

Some people were very vocal.

Maybe not you.

But some people directly called for us to quit.

personally, I think that Core's leadership here best reflects many people here's vision for the #monero-community channel

and thus there isn't much benefit to me remaining a leader here

sgp_: I would probably agree with that, but that doesn't mean you and needmoney90 shouldn't have "leadership" roles here. Maybe not "formally" but certainly in spirit.

I'll still be around

You can have your decentralized paradise. I'll check in from time to time.

🏖️

fair enough, it's both your choices. it seems a strange compromise to me, but if that's what you felt was best

I personally just am not especially inspired to work on this workgroup as-is

anyway, for those interested, I have started motions on this

We will need seven people

I would prefer more

what is this for?

a co-op

I know but what is the co-op for

have not a clue

haha all right

But thought it an interesting idea

Have no plans

But it's a nice way to form a legal entity around common goals

seems excessive for at the root what looks like a need for the optics of legitimacy and to pay for some hosting.

someone was saying that was needed

kinghat[m]: oh totally agree

but people wanted a viable alternative

and I sort of like the idea of a hippy dippy community

also, I think you'll find that the legal act that supports the coop gives the entity considerable legal weight

If that's something that is required

either now, or the future

It's also a way to ensure there is minimum hierarchy in the structure

well at least formally ensure there is little hierarchy

midipoet: I agree. I don't think it was necessary for them to "quit", but if they feel like they don't want to have leadership roles in a community structured as the monero community workgroup is, i understand the choice.

And yes, nobody was against the creation of an LLC as far as i can tell, one of the main problems was always only the MCW becoming an LLC

ErCiccione[m]: to be honest, I didn't like the idea of the LLC at all. others were more ok with it than I. That's why I suggested an entity like a co-op, which I think is more palatable, even if there could easily be criticisms of it as well. However, it's a pity that they chose the LLC over guiding #monero-community . That's an interesting decision, but ultimately theirs to make.

Some good info on co-ops if people are interested. Feel free to say stfu if not

Well, let's create an example or two that involve finances and figure out how they should be handled. An idea I've seen mentioned before is to sponsor an e-sports streamer. They're not expensive, have an audience, and some of them are very wholesome. Many other streams are becoming popular now, too, such as musicians and chess players.

What kind of organization would best be suited to collect funds and carry out this idea?

why do we need to sponsore someone?

midipoet: a co-op is a type of LLC/corporation in the US

As it is here. It's a legal entity

there are different rules regarding how it is required to interact with the state

And it's obligations to members and members to it

I think it would be fun to sponsor someone.

fair enough

seems a cheap marketing trick to me

Didn't fluffy or someone sponsor some long distance boating rig maybe 3 years ago?

I guess that's true, but for little events like that, an entire prize pool might not be more than $1,000. It would support a (perhaps too small to matter) community.

Yep, found it: forum.getmonero.org/9/work-in-progr…l-in-the-bermuda-one-two-yacht-race

anyway, the bigger idea here is: would an LLC be good for this?

(I don't think so, they could just use the CSS like everyone else :P)

I guess I'm confused as to why an LLC is needed at all. Is it just for making server payaments?

Getting donations is kind of what's going on. I might be wrong, but my mind spits it...[:shrug:]

Donations=funding/funds

i could understand them not wanting something like that going to their personal bank account

the reasons given were 'aggregating payments' (an LLC pays for goods/services) and to avoid the 'bus factor' (assets being held by one individual who may go missing/pass away). They are valid reasons, in some ways. Whether the community and its assets (current and future) needed to be subsumed into the LLC was a concern, among others.

bemore: if a person accepts "donations" then they are obligated to treat it as income even if they turn around and spend it on monero crapola

lol crapola

or lie on their taxes

That's not true in all jurisdictions, afaiu

it's certainly true in the united states, which is where all three of the folks in question reside

So receiving CCS funds was the tax issue?

For the three involved?

CCS funds are also to be treated as income and then assets for capital gains if you don't immediately sell

I remember that fucking over the kovri guy supposedly

but I'm just saying, you can't accept "donations" without treating it as income or lying on your personal taxes

Gifts/presents are not taxable im US FWIW

that is true to an extent, but there are limitations there

which I'm pretty sure would preclude taking money from strangers on the internet

IANAL, so no clue if you spin up a server and ask for 'gifts' of money that is acceptable to not have taxes

donations are also not taxable here in Ireland

jwinterm: so if I set up a donattome page for a heart operation, I would be taxed as income?

*donatetome

Yes

Or at least a GoFundMe page is apparently taxable

seems kinda murky tbh journalofaccountancy.com/issues/201…ar/donation-based-crowdfunding.html

jwinterm: there are ways for donations (up to a certain amount) to not be taxable in the US

Sec. 61 states that "gross income means all income from whatever source derived," unless specifically excepted. Statutory exceptions include the value of property acquired by gift (Sec. 102). A gift is given from " 'detached and disinterested generosity,' ... 'out of affection, respect, admiration, charity, or like impulses,' " and not from " 'any moral or legal duty,' or from 'the incentive of anticipated benefit,' " or "in return for

services rendered"

in this case the donator would expect some benefit or services rendered

services rendered is murky

so I don't think it would really be a "gift"

you're not giving money to justin and doug to do whatever they want with, right?

but is this what the whole thing was about?

I'm not commenting on donations to a general business fund here, just talking about some CCS gifts perhaps

sgp_: I don't understand

For the CCS: it depends

Someone using CCS to cover their job? Income. Reimbursement? Maybe gift

I am talking about the LLC

Depends on the factors in that FAQ

For LLC probably income

We consider the Mastering Monero donations as income

Right, but was the LLC to make tax burden easier for a CCS

That was related to capital gains mostly

it's a yes or no answer

Ok.... Not going to engage then because what you're asking for is a complex topic where many different tax laws apply, so definitely can't respond with yes/no

I was asking whether the impetus to create the LLC was because you wanted the LLC to be used for a CCS

I never wanted the main source of income to be from the CCS (you took issues with this)

So CCS taxation was never my primary consideration

This I don't really have opinions on it

s/this/thus

Lol not that :p

In any case y'all don't need to worry about any of this now

Do people here worry about taxes?

here in Ireland, they just get taken from me automatically

I don't have a choice

easy come, easy go

after having to pay an ungodly amount of taxes a couple years ago, yes

yes I do

I was chatting with a Dr. Today. He is writing on tax moral

pretty interesting topic

The Russians can identify how much tax you owe on their systems in 90 seconds

They have ALL the data

The US can do that since they usually have all the data, but they don't because of lobbying lol

my irl day job is such that I can't risk trying to skirt taxes

I have the privilege of paying tax preparers money for them to lobby for the IRS to not provide easy, free tools

Yes. US is absolutely horrible. Multi Billion dollar tax software industry spun up because of lobbying

It's common to spend >$100/yr on taxes

for last few years we just pay few hundred bucks to have a professional do them

this year she moved to our neighborhood

So many memes out there out there about being fined by the IRS for not reporting correctly and saying why don't you just f'ing tell me IRS since you obviously know much I owe

and came over and drank a bunch of wine while we did taxes

was kinda weird

*tell me how much I owe to begin with

I actually had the experience a couple times as a grad student where I filed, then they got back to me and told me I missed a credit, and told me to amend and I got a few hundred bucks more back

gg irs

yes

Lol

not now, now I hate you

sry

:(

midipoet: would it blow your mind if I told you we can use LIFO? Haha

afaik that's not allowed in Europe