yikes:

needmoney90: Isn't there something like Changelly, but w/o the KYC/email registration BS?

Ah, MorphToken is what I was thinking of

They don't support ZEC for better or worse

Not even transparent?

Not even transparent

Limited to BTC, ETH,XMR, LTC,Dash, and BCH

morphtoken, changenow, tradeogre

oh for ZEC

As a sidenote, do not recommend Simple Swap now; they ate my moniez

needmoney90: Don't spend it all in one place. explorer.zcha.in/accounts/t1YSMT1y3U6QsHB242ffkyRL8ki8JmtDShP

thank you :)

needmoney90: I'm super looking forward to this :)

Add the FB to the list of services that needs a dedicated maintainer reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i3uatl…ow_someone_in_control_of_the_monero

So I got a PM from an exchange

and for once

its very cool

seems that changenow is donating 0.4% of volume that goes through their monero exchange to the devs (still uncertain how)

bitmonero hmmm

I would imagine that they would send to the general fund

I have no idea but someone mentioned that their exchange rate is not very good

They're freely donating a portion of proceeds, regardless of their exchange rate

thats neat

Yeah, the more funding can be decentralized, the better off the project/ecosystem is

What if the company won't absorb "#monero-community"? I think most of the problems would be solved if you would just use a name which is not "Monero community workgroup" and not include some of the assets you want to absorb.

I don't see why it must be either #monero-community will be incorporated in the company or other people will run these meetings. Why must be like that? Can't the company just be a different entity on its own that provides those services (jitsi, youtube stuff, etch)?

I don't understand why you want a gerarchy to be so defined (i really don't like the notion that is keep being pushed: we are the leaders, you are community members) for the community workgroup

can't those be two parallels things?

without one absorbing the other. I really don't see the need of that if the main goal of this company is to make easier to pay bills

You want to have a better way to pay bills/taxes and maybe grow in something more structured. Sure, go ahead. Just don't absorbe the existent structure with the only reason "we are the leaders of that structure, so we decide its destiny". That mindset will only create conflicts, as we are seeing.

Also, the fact that these intentions weren't discussed at all with the community is quite bad and shows again the mentality "we are the leaders, we decide how to move forward". You cannot really expect people to be happy about this move, that's why you are getting a lot of pushbacks.

so then setup a company that provides services to the workgroup

and if the workgroup doesn't like it then they don't have to use the company?

exactly

the company and the group don't have to be the same thing

*workgroup

They're not

they are not in theory but they would be in practice

I mean, not really. #monero-community would continue to be a meta of the other workgroups

yeah, but technically is an asset of the company. Why is that necessary?

It's not though

Literally anything #monero-* is 'owned' by Core/Freenode admins

Then you agree with me listing it as an asset of the company doesn't make sense

Maybe I missed it, but please quote either the draft or the backscroll wherein it's listed as a resource

good to know that fluffypony and luigi1111 are of the same opinion. I hope they are heard.

It was stated multiple times that the LLC doesn't own any assets

the LLC should be in service of the workgroup, not the other way around.

geonic: in fairness, I'm just asking questions, I don't actually know much about what's being proposed

<needmoney90 "there aren't any assets"> See: ^

xmrscott: #monero-community is listed under the resources/assets in the gist sgp published

i don't have it handy now, i'm going by memory

xmrscott: Well, that's not true. There is an entire chapter named "Assets, Services, and Responsible Parties"

"The following are assets and services provided by the MCW. They are maintained by the listed responsible parties, which can be committees."

tks

the first listed asset is #monero-community

"Asset or Service"

Or Service being the keyword here

a chat room is not a service by any definition :) it's digital real estate.

how can be #monero-community a service?

"Meeting Committee"

and why list assets if there are none?

Its in reference to the bi-weekly meetings that sgp/rehrar typically heads

that is the service, yes.

xmrscott: Also "or", is not the keyword at all. As i quoted: ""The following are assets and services provided by the MCW. They are maintained by the listed responsible parties, which can be committees.""

so saying there are no assets is simply not true or somebody messed up the terminology there

It's quite literally the column header

Individual items are 'assets' or 'services', the set itself consists of assets and services

If that's really the case i hope the terminology will be clarified, because right now i don't believe you are right

I mean, it's basic set theory

You have a bag of marbles. Marbles can be red or blue. The bag is a set of red and blue marbles

But that conflict with the description right on top of the table that says "[...]They are maintained by the listed responsible parties, which can be committees"

That clearly implys some kind of ownership, even if not practical (since as we said, they cannot own #monero-community)

Anyway, without going too much into the semantics

my proposal still stands: clearly separate the workgroup and the company. With one provifing services to the other (at this point i think we can discard the initial notion that was pushed "it's only to pay the bills")

Bills or services, this is a nuance that is perhaps lost

Let's take a Flarum forum as basic example

Sure, you have to pay the monthly bills for the VPS, domain etc. However, you do need people to play sysadmin, moderators, etc

However, it's primarily to pay the bills

As I understand it

Sure, the company sounds like a good fit for this purpose

That would be the company providing a service to the community workgroup.

I don't see any problem with that

Ok. Yay.

FWIW, the LLC name is not locked in stone.

Why yay. That's literally my proposal 😛 be an external entity, not absorbe the existing workgroup and transform it into a company

Rehrar said early on that they'd probably change the name to avoid misunderstanding

And that is quite literally their proposal

Yeah that was my proposal too :P

their proposal reads very differently to me

People seem to have misunderstood the #monero-community aspect and gotten stuck on that

It is only in reference to the bi-weekly meetings

No. That's not true. It was said from the beginning that the company is made "to give a proper structure to the workgroup"

not to work alongside it

I think there is a lot of confusion because differnet and opposite things have been said. After the feedback i hope the company board will come out with a better proposal that clarifys misunderstandings if there were any and clearly state the structure they want to adopt and what's the relation with the community workgroup

i remind you xmrscot that sgp stated that the company name could be different, but they will still act as "monero communtiy workgroup", that doesn't sound like separing the two things/

forgot a t: xmrscott

So let's looks at the definition on the official website: The Monero Community Workgroup is one of the largest and oldest groups of people in the Monero community. It is focused on providing essential services, including community meetings, coffee chats, and more. It connects the various, wide aspects and projects of the Monero community together.

(communityworkgroup.org/home)

What specifically is the issue w/ giving that a formal legal entity?

does it actually need to be an LLC?

I'll give the community meeting as a freebie because the regular people who head it have never asked for help really for someone to take over, but that's about it

or is "some LLC" needed to pay the bills for the MCW?

there is a big difference between the two options

imo

I'm not a lawyer, so can't speak to LLC vs some other legal entity being the best choice

that's not the question

the question is whether the MCW needs to be a legal entity

or a legal entity is required to pay the bills for the MCW

exactly. That's what i mean with separing the two things

ErCiccione: yes, i agree with you

xmrscott I hope we can now agree that we are talking about different proposals

i think NOT separating the two things is antithetical to the MCW

but then again, i didn't create the MCW, so maybe that was always envisioned

I doubt it would've taken 3 years if that was the plan all along.

i don't think that's the case midipoet. Since the reason for creating the company is "we are getting bigger and we need to pay bills"

It's worth noting that the existing things are all owned by sgp, rehrar, nm90, etc. I have no issue w/ them bundling what they own for a variety of reasons into something managed by a legal entity

The fact that they are fine with renaming suggests they view what is in the proposal as different from what people consider MRW

xmrscott: Again, that't not a problem at all. I feel we are swinging from an argument to another

xmrscott[m]: there is a lot of truth in that point and this maybe the sticking point

they are fine with renaming <- as i already said. Sgp stated it was ok to rename the company, but they will still act as "monero community workgroup". We clearly need clarifications.

so the issue is that a legal entity is required to pay bills, and maintain/own assets

I believe they're fine with renaming as long as the LLC is the "parent company". i.e. the Alphabet to MCW's Google.

They will continue to oversee the resources they already oversee, namely Nextcloud, etc

MWG*

That's what they mean by act as MCW

Per the earlier website definition

to be honest, i was more concerned with the whole self appointed board, no line of redress, and no line for new board members that weren't voted in for by the board. i mean if ZCash did something similar, what would we say to that?

we might laugh a little.

As I see it

xmrscott: Come one you cannot interpretate their statements for us and tell us you are right and we are wrong :P

let's have some clarifications so no interpretations will be needed

Am I not allowed to interpret what they wrote just like you?

wut?

I'm simply showing another person can interpret it anotherway

Sure. That's your interpretation and i believe that according to the statements read until now, it's wrong.

midipoet: Yes I totally understand. I was admittedly a little taken back by that as well.

However people are free to spin up whatever community resources they want

If someone hates the Jitsi instance and wants to pay more for better servers, more Nextcloud storage etc, they are free to do so

Is how I've choosen to take it

Anything operated by the LLC or co-op or whatever it ends up being is completely tangent to the 'official' resources. Even if choose to believe it's a long con by them, they can't really damage the heart of the project with said tangent resources

xmrscott[m]: yeah, i suppose this is true, hence the repeated communications yesterday of something to the strain of"if you don't like it, make your own"

there is a lot of truth to that, i suppose

i wouldn't have maintained that position myself, but maybe i am a pacifist.

* Anything operated by the LLC or co-op or whatever it ends up being is completely tangent to the 'official' resources. Even if one choses to believe it's a long con by them, they can't really damage the heart of the project with said tangent resources

I mean, this has played out in so many ways across the past 4 years.

For example, people were frustrated since at least 2016 about fluffy being the primary speaker only 'face' to the project despite being primarily a code maintainer. So people like sgp took a very proactive role in giving talks, building out other things like Coffee Chat. An LLC may not feel as cypherpunk, but what happens when, and I hate to use this example, but it's the best example I can think of, the

creator of a resource dies unexpectedly

That account/domain may not come into control of someone within the community

An LLC better gurantees that, and is arguably more decentralized than a single person

BitcoinTalk forums is a great example of this I think

I personally would prefer a Monero forum to be controlled legally by multiple people rather than a single person like Thermos or whatever their alias is

Less subject to the whims of a benevolent tyrant gone mad

lol thermos

instead of spending his riches on big buildings or statues of himself, he's spending billions on new forum software that will never arrive

Lots of conversation last night on the same topics we already discussed in detail

The three of us very much provide the "service" of biweekly meetings

We provide all these things and want to organize how we do it and allow more faces in. I genuinely don't see that as a problem

in many ways, the "fight" over this channel shows the problem; the Monero community workgroup is not and simply cannot be an IRC channel only

and this IRC channel isn't changing materially, so you're good there

Feedback on Monero Revuo: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i40tg9…vuo_suggestions_concerns_complaints

Thanks for sharing that, I've added a couple comments

sgp_: Since the conversation is closed on your side and the intention of transforming the workgroup into a company is clear (I get from the silence that the idea of having a company providing services to the workgroup as many suggested as been discarded too), i don't see any point in commenting further, i agree. I will wait to see the public announcement of the final form of this company to state my conclusions.

And by that i mean that there have been a lot of conflicting statements and unanswered questions. Makes sense to see where this thing is going before commenting further.

fluffypony: if I had a twatter account, I would vote

lol

fluffypony: Are they well known? I've never heard of them

never heard of them

just cross-posting

Oki

I've never heard either

we shall rename this channel to #monero-brigading or #monero-vote-manipulation

new keyless wallet! never worry about losing your funds again, we store it in plaintext on the blockchain so that it can always be easily recovered

asymptotically: lol

the goal of incorporating is so things can be paid for, correct?

kinghat[m]: really the main goal is to assist with everything we wrote out in the doc

but we need to pay for things to make that happen, yes

sorry im behind, is there a link to that doc?

sent

for the Monero Meme competition this Friday, make sure you have LibreOffice installed so I can send templates in Draw

that will hopefully speed things up

sgp_ nah, just rename it to #monero-community-LLC :)

To be fair, there is probably a good meme in this somewhere.

Wee three kings or something like that

waiting for Core to form their LLC next. I think they've put in a lot of work over the years and an LLC structure would benefit Monero as a whole. it would also simplify keeping rehrar on salary.

Die mad

mad at what? I think Core could hire more people if they were an LLC and we could be even more productive.

Your plausible deniability is completely transparent, dude. Nobody is fooled.

huh?

Lol. You're telling me that you really, honestly think core should make an LLC? And you're not being sarcastic?

geonic: let's not mix up Core and three people who aren't a part of the Core team

not sure if LLC allows pseudononymous board members

at least not easily in practice

rehrar - since when does sarcasm require plausible deniability? you're framing it like it's a crime to jest with the three kings

lol

geonic: please take it down a notch

actually several

no one reasonably thinks jest is a "crime", cmon

you're trying to compare two obviously dissimilar things (Core with others). This workgroup never has officially represented Monero

I propose that we take it down a notch with the legal terms. at least until you've renamed the channel to -LLC

nah

sgp_ you wield a lot of soft power in the community. let's not pretend like the three of you are some random individuals.

pretty sure that most community members know your nicknames but not those of all 7 core members.

so they're not as dissimilar as you think

maybe that's because we have done all the work for all these community resources you use and benefit from all the time

s/all/a lot of

are you saying Core hasn't done a lot of the work that we benefit from all the time? if anything, you're drawing an even closer parallel.

it's absolutely not the same

why? were Core elected? or did they just roll up their sleeves and do the work that the community has benefited from? the three of you are basically saying, "if you don't like the way we're running things, fork it from us". so enlighten me how they're different.

I'm not going to describe how we are different than Core. If you don't see the difference, then so be it

ah, the old “If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry.”

What is your problem dude? You’re literally just trolling and being sarcastic with everyone.

It’s not helpful, and if you have real concerns discuss them like an adult.

sethsimmons if you have nothing to add to the conversation, I'd prefer if you kept your comments to yourself.

Coating everything in sarcasm and vitriol is unhelpful, demeaning, and has no place in real conversations.

I have added many things, they just didn’t annoy people and I’ve said my piece so I’ve let it be.

I’m not here to waste people’s time and demean those doing the majority of the work.

But I’m sick and tired of you wasting everyone else’s time.

how am I demeaning them if I'm saying their status is high enough to be compared to that of the Core team?

Every sentence is coated in sarcasm and is written in a rude and demeaning way, that is clear to everyone in here.

If you have real opinions and thoughts share them like an adult in a meaningful way.

You’re not helping anyone being a troll.

Unless you just get off on it.

Then I guess you’re at least helping yourself 🙃

You can have contrarian opinions and share them in a way that’s constructive.

I wasn't speaking with you and I'm not engaging with you going forward. Please direct your comments elsewhere.

Enjoy.

Consider it speaking to everyone else in the room as a show of support 🙂

Back to the topic at hand. Justin, you're the face of the project in many ways that Core isn't.

Blockfolio Justin Ehrenhofer, Diego Salazar, xmrhaelan, binartyFate (want to delegate to marketing)

CoinGecko Beam Justin Ehrenhofer (want to delegate to marketing)

Delta Direct Justin Ehrenhofer (want to delegate to marketing)

That just means he controls the new pushes to those services, it doesn’t even have his name attached.

I sort of do wonder why it's all delegation. Doesn't delegation imply hierarchy?

I don't see why you're asking to be held to a lower code of conduct than Core

It comes across as Monero the entity.

<midipoet "I sort of do wonder why it's all"> There is a hierarchy if they’re the ones doing/driving the majority of the work.

They’re helping to craft the overall action items/objectives, and those of us spending less time (like me) are happy to be delegated to to spread the load.

There doesn’t have to be some huge fear of a slight hierarchy

The protocol needs near complete decentralization, work groups do not.

I don't see it that way

I’m not sure why people get so focused on needing every aspect of a community to be wholly decentralized.

I always did things as I wanted to take responsibility for things

And was afforded that responsibility

That just means nothing gets done as we scale.

I am talking from my own experience

It's valid

If they own the thing, and want to hand off the thing, the word for that is delegation.

And I looked up delegation. It explicitly implies hierarchy

As I thought

So again, I wonder why the ethos is delegation

They can change the wording if it makes you feel better.

As opposed to "fostering a sense of shared responsibility" or some other such nonsense

What’s a better word for spreading the workload you already do to other people?

yes Seth. It's all about the wording. Silly me

What’s a better way to phrase that?

The same thing still has to happen

Seth. They took on the work for themselves. It was a choice, as far as I see it. Some of it may not even need to be conducted.

ie. I don't think Monero needs a Twitter

I definitely don't think it's needs a Facebook

It absolutely does need a Twitter, run by the community

It also doesn't need a TikTok instasham or any other crap

ok.

Facebook is actually an example here.

Or you’re missing a LARGE swath of users and devs.

We dont run a facebook.

Some scammer set one up

and now we cant really do much except complain to them

and if it gets taken down, someone else will pop up claiming to be official

needmoney90: exactly. We can't control everything

Do we get every Monero domain?

Every possible Monero Twitter handle?

The community tends to try, when possible.

needmoney90: what do you mean "when possible".

There are thousands possible

Its about people wanting an unofficial 'official' source for info on each platform.

And if we dont run one, someone else does.

If no good one exists, people go to bad ones.

They dont just stop

you can't stop people doing bad

you can create a source thats trusted.

And anyway, that's not the discussion

and point people there instead of nowhere

I started a discussion about the need to delegate

A need to do exactly whats happening now

people come in, ask what they can do, and get passed off to various workgroups based on what they say they're good at

You can still point people to trusted sources

thats literally what happens now

We do it all the time, and don't own all of them

I don’t really get what the SM point has to do with it

maybe thats 'hierarchy'

What does that have to do with delegation?’

<needmoney90 "and point people there instead o"> isn't that centralization though?

we are a source for knowing where to go

they can clearly choose anywhere to do anything they want

we are one option for giving direction

I was delegated part of owning the MCW twitter, its a good way to do things .shrug

If I had come up with something new that needed to be done I would have just done it

its a central place to get info for where to go or what to do, of potentially many

needmoney90: we don't need to own all the trusted sources. The WHOLE point is to ensure that trust moves outwards into the community organically

'centralized'

But the three OGs of MCW have done almost everything thats core to building a community, or started to

So that has to be handed off to new people, i.e. delegated.

we don't want control over most of it lol

Yeah no kidding lol

Can’t imagine managing all the platforms/sources involved ATM

sgp_ is a wizard

needmoney90: I don't doubt that the motives are benevolent, as I know all of you

Between 3 people, I’m excited to see more of that get spread out

I'm not here to complain about all the work I do; I however want to delegate it so we can keep growing

How could the “delegation”, for lack of a better word, be done better midipoet?

never give up control, benevolent dictator for life by force of shame

But if you can't sit back and say, yeah, ok maybe we shouldn't have appointed ourselves as the board, or maybe we should have thought about the name, or about the ownership structure, or about the line of redress, or about how the "formalisation" would be perceived....

sgp_: maybe there won't be people to delegate to, as they don't want to be delegated at!

Maybe that's why people find it hard to stay around

lol delegated at

Maybe that's why we only have X amount of people...

How else could it be done better?

That's what I am getting at...

Instead of just shooting down the proposal, how could it be handled better to pull in all of these people waiting to contribute?

There is a certain perception about Monero (good or bad). LLCs, boards, hierarchy are not it (imo)

What is a better way to do it?

MyMonero is a company and it has Monero in the name, is that bad?

Make a clear proposal on how to do it in a better way than the proposed way.

A core team member runs it too

I don't know. How did it turn out!!

it's not bad. it's been a company since inception

It seems like a good overall proposal to me, with some small changes to LLC name etc.

it didn't transition from a community-run project to a company without community input.

An LLC being used to pay bills != MCW becoming a company lmao

you are all now employees, deal with it 😎

I want a raise.

shit does that mean I need to pay you

Inge- okay. 10% raise. Don't come asking for more soon though.

I would like a 10% raise on my 0XMR salary

Harrumph

I need to see the health benefits first.

independent contractors

or interns

take your pick

sgp_: it's not necessarily about the name (even though I do worry about it, but I am not a lawyer). It's about the ideology. I can't say I am right. But I can certainly say what I feel isn't right about it. I could also be completely off base. it seems others have similar concerns, but maybe we are all off base.

unpaid interns are so unethical lol. side rant we don't need to go on

<midipoet "sgp_: it's not necessarily about"> What would you like to see done instead?

sgp_ interns are paid in more than cash

some people have something to learn from teams etc

They get some exposure too

why not a non-profit instead?

endogenic: yeah but 99.99% it's bullshit

and there are willing teachers

citation pls

msavoritias: A nonprofit...LLC?

Non-profit takes a ton of work/time delay up front apparently msavoritias

ignore me

I dont know the legal stuff thats someone else's part

sethsimmons: just have some entity/company that pays the bills. That's it. I don't see why anything more is needed in terms of formalisation?

<endogenic "some people have something to le"> leaning doesn't bring food on the table for interns though. Its basically free labor

we need an entity for payments, and to aggregate 'ownership' of various handles above individuals, because people leave or get disinterested or (please no) die.

endogenic: off-topic, no need to actually discuss

<sethsimmons "Non-profit takes a ton of work/t"> seems more ethical than an LLC

sgp fluffy and i put a ton of time and money into mymonero knowing it would only produce open source software rather than revs during much of my tenure

<midipoet "sethsimmons: just have some enti"> Like an LLC?

when other projects focus on monero

or a cooperative.

(not your fault, my fault for bringing it up)

dedicating brand to it

And then spread the existing/new work among people, via something like delegation?

that's a good thing

how does btc handle this?

not mcw != monero

*note

They don’t have an community workgroup AFAIK

like blockstream != btc

It’s all organic, but we aren’t afforded the luxury of first movers advantage/network effect.

its just theymos

Lol

theres no workgroup, just theymos

at least for the time period that we

we have thrmos

we're discussing in its history

btc community is a dumpster fire

at least on Reddit

needmoney90: sure. I get the practicalities. I never said no to a company/entity. I mean, I don't think any of it is that important to be honest, and if it is, give it to core. They are the stewards

and you asked why its needed for more than payments

sgp_ i find it weird you tell me what to say or not discuss

as I said, people die, or get disinterested

midipoet: Core doesn't want to do everything

Should core be the stewards of every community workgroup?

just saying man :)

maybe it's a texting thing

sethsimmons: don't take the piss please. I have better things to be doing than taking the piss with you

That seems antithetical to decentralization and resource usage.

but i keep getting that feeling

having a larger entity over the handles makes sense logistically

endogenic: lol, discuss that in another channel then, just off-topic here :p

.bbl

no

boot me

weirod

<midipoet "sethsimmons: don't take the piss"> I’m not, I’m trying to figure out if you have an idea on how to improve things.

sethsimmons: fuck me, checking others for sarcasm, then behaves exactly the same. Wise up.

if Core was more centralized and did a ton of stuff, then maybe the MCW wouldn't need to exist, sure

People keep saying no to the LLC/proposal but have no proposal for how to keep things moving as we grow.

<midipoet "sethsimmons: fuck me, checking o"> What sarcasm?

They’re all honest questions lol

sethsimmons: i am discussing what I think. Is that not a good start?

<sethsimmons "People keep saying no to the LLC"> why not a non-profit or a cooperative though

we haven't reached a point where we can't continue to grow under the current infrastructure

I have made a number of recommendations

it is! I’m just trying to figure out what you think :/

but Core doesn't want all the responsibilities, for a variety of reasons

<msavoritias[m] "why not a non-profit or a cooper"> I’m not a lawyer, no idea on the technical details of that.

<midipoet "I have made a number of recommen"> Sorry I must have missed those in backscroll — mind summing them up for me?

sethsimmons: if you just listened you might find out.

we can register as a nonprofit and then just not get an IRS "certs" of sorts

a non-profit in the US at least is a corporation

<midipoet "sethsimmons: if you just listene"> I’m trying to find out...

I’m asking you serious questions.

For me I see an LLC as a for profit thing. The whole ethos of Monero goes out of the window

a non Profit or a Cooperative seems more aligned

AFAIK there is nothing explicitly for-profit about an LLC

msavoritias[m]: I think that's a misconception about how entities work

Would it be different if someone outside the US could handle payments?

sgp_ the comparison you're making between MCW LLC and Blockstream is scary to some of us. if you want to start your own Blockstream, hire some cryptographers and have at it. I don't see how appropriating community resources (spearheaded by you, of course) under a centralized umbrella is in service to the community.

geonic: do not take that as a comparison between MCW and Blockstream

Yeah I never saw that comparison

niocbrrrrrr: there are a host of companies that could handle payments that I know of.

And would vehemently oppose anything resembling Blockstream lol

msavoritias[m], non-profits are frequently LLCs

but they're always corporations

Blockstream burns millions a year. MCW has a budget of $0.99

and the goals are very different

eh, server fees and s tuff

monero satellite wen?

8/5/2020, 2:10:56 PM <sgp_> not mcw != monero

8/5/2020, 2:11:10 PM <sgp_> like blockstream != btc

MCW mission to mars for the Monero Moon Prize

for those that missed it

lol geonic stop trolling

or else leave if you can't participate in good faith

I saw another troll saying he never saw that comparison. just helping him :)

you have no god-given right to participate here

I'll leave it to you to boot me when I've given you good cause

geonic how does the formation of a LLC negatively impacts you?

serious question ;p

sgp_: to be fair, he is quoting what you wrote (for a second I thought he made it up)

it centralizes in the hands of a few resources that were created by the efforts of many

like websites? and coffee chat?

whatever.

Yeah, like what exactly? :P

It's not like the LLC will commercially benefit or?

dsc_: it sets a precedent for what the goal of any monero workgroup should be that reaches a certain size and influence.

geonic is entitled to the coffee chats that I organize

it also sets a bad precedent. which one of our volunteer groups is going to form an LLC next?

geonic: whichever one wants to

i don't think it sets any precedent at all

why not Core? or is that not a volunteer group in your eyes?

dsc_: it also raises the possibility that other workgroups could be subsumed into the MCW due to the assets at their disposal

dsc_: when GUI LLC :DD

selsta: exactly my point, that will never happen

selsta: careful, it's a slippery slope dontyouknow

it creates a centrifugal force

therefor, I don't really care if -community is a LLC, on the moon, or in another dimension

it does not though

"it creates a centrifugal force" wut

most critical mass is in the dev channels

if those turn into LLC - yes, that would be a big problem :)

dsc_: there is also the distinct chance that the incorporation of MCW into an LLC means that they could leverage substantial economic weight to inventivise the goals and motives of what would otherwise be independent workgroups formed organically

name another workgroup that adopted the CoC

centrifugal forces puch things out away from the center though right?

aren't dev decisions driven by community consensus? when you have a large workgroup that more or less represents the "community", don't you think they can affect dev decisions?

<midipoet "dsc_: there is also the distinct"> What economic weight? They don’t even have donations, nor a profit source.

midipoet: ok thats a fair point

geonic: no

maybe graviational force is more appropriate

we don’t do dev decisions in here

midipoet dsc_ you can argue the same of a whale, or XMR.TO, or Tari, or anything

CCS stuff gets discussed here in the meetings, but core decides in the end

geonic: so while I agree with your overall feeling of "LLC bad" - I actually think that some workgroups it can benefit, others the complete opposite

sethsimmons: I would imagine an obvious step would be a CCS

is that mentioned somewhere in the LLC's bylaws? I didn't see it in the draft proposal

centripetal jwinterm noob

centripetal yay that's my word.

dsc_: I think that's fair; not the right fit for everyone obviously

sgp_: yes, you could. Accept, this is the main comms channel, as well as the others that would be assets. That is also a vector

centripedal works also but is the mcw llc going to rapidly rotating, or is just an enourmous mass sucking everything in by its mere presence?

If the LLC is only to pay bills and isn’t used to monopolize resources or conversation, I see no issues.

sgp_: it's not like we HAVEN'T seen that sort of stuff before

Fact is, sgp/rehrar et. al. can ALREADY monopolize resources and/or conversation

MCW is the new MEW

<midipoet "sgp_: yes, you could. Accept, th"> They’ve said many times they don’t own the channels.

You don't need a LLC for a community takeover

True

jwinterm lol

Just send me the bills

midipoet: you are now theoretically (not actually) banned from coffee chats. See, can manipulate even without LLC

much easier to see dictatorial trends if exhibited directly by an individual rather than a "board"

If the LLC is the best way to move towards more people doing the work necessary to drive community and adoption, I don’t get the big fuss.

"the board has decided that..."

yea, I understand the hesitancy to go with a corporate structure just because of the optics, but in the end I don't think really affects anything

geonic: there are tons of ways around that though

I have no legal expertise and therefore no idea if there are better legal methods to handle bills/payments/resources.

geonic, core can already hide behind that in the same way, no?

"monero core has decided that..."

"mcw has deciced that..."

just without a formalized legal structure

sgp_: yes. But the coffee chat (as it stands) doesn't have a stamp and sealed approval of being a owned by an LLC that is the "official" MCW

I think people would bat an eye at "MCW has decided", in its current form

I don't see the difference really midipoet

to what extent does an LLC make that more or less official?

sgp_: there is key distinction between being banned from a "coffee chat" and being banned from the "coffee chat that is owned and run by the official LLC that maintains/stewards/operates the Monero community"

sgp_: you don't think there would be a difference in the eyes of the law?

in the eyes of the law? no. I don't even know how that is a relevant question

plus at the moment you would be hypothetically banned by MCW leaders anyway

law doesn't care

IMO an LLC would make things better, as the ownership of things is more spread out

It’s no longer one/two people owning a resource/having admin/etc.

And can be used to spread those resources out while simplifying payments

and it helps make sure we vote before taking important actions, rather than justin representing the workgroup with whatever he feels that day

"Minions" called, they're asking for all the extras to return to set

Is there a link for this LLC proposal, or is it just a conversation here at this point?

i still have to read the draft before i make any comments on the whole thing. not that my opinion matters anyways 😛

Constructive feedback I would think is always valued :)

sgp_: who votes? The board?

Firefox is having a fit or else I’d grab the link

I assume sgp_ or others can link you to the proposal rhadamanthus

what does matter is 🍍🍕

There :)

thanks

My only recommendations thus far:

* Clarify what the asset ownership/management means practically now and after the LLC

* Go with a less “official” sounding LLC name so it’s not confused as *the* community formed into an LLC

sgp_: and honestly, there is a difference to the example you gave, imo. The example you used about "banning" an individual is actually really interesting. Being banned from some "loose community" is one thing. Being banned from a "digital meeting place of an incoporrated entity" is another altogether, i would imagine - especially if I didn't agree to the ban, and tried to get back in through other methods.

There would be completely different legal ramifications, potentially.

legal ramifications? on what grounds would you sue?

sgp_: the legal ramifications work both ways. I could sue the entity. The entity could sue me

if you're threatening to sue me, I definitely need this LLC

On what grounds? Unjust denial of entry to a "community event"

I have no idea lol

this all seems crazy to me

sgp_: I am saying I couldn't sue if there was not entity that ran the digital space

that absolutely is not true

I hope that the LLC name does not contain the words "monero community"

and your grounds would be incredibly weak in both cases

But if there was, and it was owned, operated, maintained and managed entity, I could potentially sue

you can sue individuals...

<selsta "I hope that the LLC name does no"> Agreed selsta

That could get very confusing to people.

sgp_: it's hypothetical. We don't even know the hypothetical situation.

in any case I think any reasonable person would see this hypothetical situation is so hypothetical it's not worth concerning ourselves over

I'm not concerned about my legal liability in either case

sgp_: you have the example!!

*gave

I never brought up legal liability

the meetings happen on freenode

freenode is owned by a for-profit corporation

has anyone ever sued freenode for being banned?

lol

I personally like "Monero Foundation". has a nice ring to it

jwinterm: this may not always be the case

There was talk of self hosted instances

midipoet: seriously, this isn't relevant

Was there not?

yeah, but individuals can't reasonably sue others from being banned from their platform unless it's proven discrimination maybe

doesn't matter who runs the platform. in no cases are these public services

Sorry for the amp.

people can sue for any reason

sgp_: so then why are you saying I can't sue

Lol

I don't even know what this conversation is anymore

I'm not going to talk more about legal liability

the conversation is not relevant

so would this be for-profit or not-for-profit?

Not for profit

Legal status as a nonprofit is more difficult, so legally it may be a for profit entity.

sgp_: I was only using it to demonstrate the difference between a "loose community" on a "public" platform, and a LLC owned and operated communication medium, along with the different legal ramifications that may ensue from this. And only then to show the difference between the two! You gave the example in the first place, I just ran with it.

if the Bitcoin Foundation could pull off nonprofit status, I don't see why we couldn't

What is the Bitcoin Foundation?

geonic: there are no plans to register at the moment

Never heard that name.

homework

lmao

choosing beggar much?

How have similar entities worked out in other communities? The Bitcoin Foundation was a bust, but how is the Zcash Foundation or the Ethereum Foundation working out?

they're corruptible and centralizing forces wherever they've been tried

pretty sure zcash foundation is just a front for electric coin company

eth foundation is front for consensys

I don’t think those are comparable honestly, they’re very different entities

Neither of those are even focusing on community.

agree. This sort of thing has not worked out well in the past. Don't see why we think it would work out any different.

I really hate the comparison between the MCW and the ZF and the ECC. The two latter get funds from the network directly

the Monero Foundation could be a front for MCW LLC. we must think two steps ahead.

lol

Sigh...

only two? :p

Grandmaster needs 42

haha

11 entities owning each other in a circle

that's a co-op

but that would surely attract more contributors and make paying our bills easier!

sigh

Which was my suggestion waaaay back

Just so Seth knowa

*knows

sorry, have you already gone over this? I can be filled in later if so.

midipoet: I definitely wasn't referring to a co-op there; it was a joke

What would a co-op improve/change about the proposal?

I honestly don’t know what that is in practice

sgp_: yes I know. I was riffing a joke on your joke

I just want to stress a co-op is not a standalone business structure

And how it would effect things moving forward.

LLC or corporations can act as a cooperative

sgp_: yes that may be true. Where I am, they are (afaiu)

REI, one of the largest co-ops, is "Recreational Equipment, Inc."

I keep seeing this: "centralized resources to a few that many have put effort into"

And I'm struggling to visualize this hypothetical many.

oooh we're all just recipients of your benevolence here

Can you just go away and let people who actually are able to have common sense discuss?

Thank you needmoney90

Not my fault not everyone contributes, and most don't do so often.

There is literally 0 value coming from him ATM.

I'm being a mod. Sue me.

Here's the issue I see. It's true that we three don't do everything. Others have contributed in the past. Things like editing for Mastering Monero, being a part of coffee chats, and other odd jobs here and there.

Insulting people and talking down to them on every damn message gets old. He needs to grow up.

<needmoney90 "Insulting people and talking dow"> No kidding...

But, I'll be blunt, these are the minority of contributions. Many (most?) of the contributions are being done by us three, and honestly, most of that by sgp

So should we structure our entire setup for the infrequent contributions?

Or should we structure to get the day-to-day done with less headache?

There's what we would like to have happen (more contributors), and what is the reality (few contributors)

That said

I understand the concern that if we make certain steps, people are concerned it will lock us into the few contributors format.

In other words, if we assume few contributors and structure around that, it may be a self fulfilling prophecy.

But at the same time, this workgroup has been a thing for years now, and hadn't been structured in a way that a self-fulfilling prophecy would happen, and we still are hurting for help. :/

As long as there is a clear goal of delegation/committees, I see this as a good step forward.

How long do we hold out for the hypothetical flood of volunteers? Are we willing to burn out our consistent volunteers to hold on to this hope?

We needed some formalization/focus, and this seems like a good first step and path forward.

FWIW I can say in general LLCs would make me want to contribute less

<selsta "FWIW I can say in general LLCs w"> LLCs in general, or this specific proposal that includes an LLC?

What are your thoughts on how we can better handle payments/ongoing costs without one?

If we can work around that I’m for it, but I haven’t seen a better way forward yet.

Selsta, and would you not have the options n to contribute to literally every other workgroup that doesn't have an LLC?

E.g. I wouldn’t contribute to something like Zcash

rehrar: MCW creating an LLC does not really bother me as I don’t contribute here too much anyway

Honest question to ask people opposed to this idea. If someone put in the work and made it a non-profit instead of an LLC, would this alleviate some concerns or not really?

no.

no,

a non-profit is an LLC tho

or an s-corporation

it's some kind of corporation

it's like a trick question

Ok, so I want another honest answer here.

I just think it’s weird joining a community where there a 3 "board members" and the rest

Do you think this who pay for resources or of pocket should just suck it up in terms of the tax difficulties?

but you are afforded the opportunity of being delegated certain tasks. that makes up for it.

Like, all FOSS takes sacrifices. Deal with it and stop bitching.

rehrar: I volunteered to help pay for resource out of pocket and suck up the tax difficulties.

I can't speak for others.

resources*

what are MCW expenses on a yearly basis at this point?

I don't really care which way this shakes out. I understand the desire to reduce out of pocket expenses. I'm just curious what the magnitude of the issue is at the moment.

rehrar: the proposal wasn’t solely about payments

selsta: I know, but it's a big reason.

sethsimmons: LLCs in general, like I said I don’t care too much about this proposal here

Thanks

it's not a board for managing the community, it's a board for selecting what to spend resources on for the community's benefit

I don’t really have a deep understanding of them so I’m trying to learn more about people’s objections.

resources = time and money

<sgp_ "it's not a board for managing th"> I think that’s something that should be clarified in the doc

It’s a bit vague, and I think a lot of people are interpreting it differently.

I tried to make that clear under goals of the organization overall

At this point, I honestly think the name of the workgroup should be changed and it will clear a lot of things up.

"here's the board, here are the goals of what they want to do"

"We're doing all this work, and no one is offering to help us! It's so hard dealing with the tax implications of $500/m in server fees." "I'll pay for it and deal with the tax issues!" "No one, not one person!"

if you think this is just about cost you're mistaken

these resources take effort to maintain

I imagine someone would take me up on my offer if that was the issue. It's the third time I've made it.

Who guna sysadmin?

so it's not the tax implications, it's the.... "effort to maintain"?

how is your LLC solving that?

geonic: since you keep being divisive, go form your own workgroup then bye. prove us wrong

spend 3 Saturdays a week organizing events

did you make Defcon talk or event proposals?

Monero events aren't real and you've never seen one.

sgp_: the LLC thing also talks about subsuming new/other functions, does it not?

want to make blockfolio updates for every happening?

there are a billion things

and a billion more we can't do but want to do

so, if you feel we aren't doing a good job, you have no requirement to support us or be beholden to us

rehrar: a lot of people out hard graft into Monero events. Certainly way more that 3 people

we will listen to useful feedback, but your bad-faith arguments have no place anywhere. good-faith fine

Even though we decided not to make it a part of the theoretical LLC, I'll use the Monero radio idea as an example.

Someone has to hold the licenses. An entity has to hold the rights to the songs. Etc.

what's with the kicking someone out repeatedly? I didn't think they were being that divisive?

In this case, we decided to probably just do it under Cypher Stack (my business). But I'm certain some people will say "oh look, Diego is holding all of the licenses to this thing, so he can personally benefit from it if he wanted to."

I kicked him once for constantly trolling and talking down to people.

i think in that case you wouldnt have a monero radio, monero radio would be internet based.

It wasn't "repeatedly"

sure, I can do Blockfolio, together with xmrhaelan. but is that how these decisions are made? to prove a point?

and if he continues acting like that I will happily give him a tempban

with xmrhaelan? he is able to push these now and doesn't

needmoney90: ah I thought he was kicked a second time. Apols

he/she/it

you didnt say xe

how dare you

ok then. I volunteer to help push them.

midipoet, regarding events, I understand lots of people put effort, but I have a hard time listening to you regarding them when every time I was mildly miffed about how the Defcon volunteer situation panned out last year (causing me tons of extra work) you tell me to hush.

actually does outreach form part of -community? That wasn't clear. Outreach in general isn't clear to me.

No. Outreach is their own thing.

outreach is on telegram

if a dev wants to get paid for working on monero they have to go to the CCS, why should that be different for any other contributor?

fwiw I'm looking into nonprofit registrations (not 501(c)(3)) and they seem to be more work but I'll see if they are reasonable. They usually need to be corporations, not LLCs

kinghat[m]: who says they have to go to the CCS?

no one

no, i know they can get funding from anywhere but through the official channels setup via the community.

nothing about this workgroup officially represents Monero

rehrar: the volunteer situation was just that. They are volunteers. It'll work well sometimes, others not. I wouldn't dwell on it, that's all I say. My point still stands, Monero events wouldn't work without the whole crew (and more)

Some were paid you dingus.

rehrar midipoet: it's probably best not to focus on who is getting paid or not; I don't really see how it's relevant here

rehrar: I would imagine if you totted the hours it was fair. Maybe they weren't as reliable...that's another point though

Lul

still havent read the thing yet but it sounds like its two issues at hand. people want to be paid for their efforts and it would make paying for stuffs easier?

kinghat[m]: nah, not using this to get paid

no idea where that came from

kinghat[m]: no. Nobody is wanting to use this to get paid.

sgp_: it's not relevant. Rehrar brought up events, I was saying that events are way more then MCW

I dont want to get paid either, I've explicitly kept myself away from anything like that

same

My work here is strictly volunteer :/

btw i dont have anything against anyone being paid for their efforts*

good

Actually I think it is somewhat important to discuss the payment portion. Because, like it or not, it means my contributions to MCW are technically contributions from Core.

So it's not the "trinity" doing things that were discussing.

It's sgp_ and needmoney90

So Core has a paid for board member ;-)

Who do this free of charge, volunteer, do most of it, and I want to support what they want.

midipoet: I actually won't be a part of the board.

yeah, he mentioned that to us

For specifically this reason.

I think I put that in the doc?

Look, we all agree the doc needs work

I think that's fair to say

so it's a two-person board. sounds even better.

I'm not a moron. I know my paid position means "core influence" wherever I go.

"(unofficial capacity as requested)"

I also think it's fair to say that the doc was always going to get criticism

the question is which one of the two holds veto power? In that case, why even have a board at all?

midipoet: I don't think anybody thought it was going to be anything but this when the doc was shared. :P

midipoet: yeah, I expected nothing less from you all

you all hated on me for Monero Means Money lol

or at least the overwhelming community sentiment was originally negative

“You all” is currently 2 people FWIW

ErCiccione offered disagreements too

And selsta has raised good contrarian points, along with some points by erciccione

Yeah

Would love it if more people would speak up

It's true this discussion has been smaller.

regardless of intent this will probably and unfortunately create a "community fork"

The CoC one was a huge shit show.

kinghat[m]: nah

sgp_, why do you want an LLC with a two-person board? how are disagreements going to be handled?

we will count Diego's vote

Ree

even though unofficial

To be honest, I always disagree with attempts at formalisation (that's my own personal view)

can the board please enumerate monero community workgroup official position on hawaiian pizza?

soft pass

(my vote)

jwinterm: nasty

fork off kinghat[m]

I’d ban it if I was on the board

I'd eat it if there was no other pizza

I like it

But I'm overruled

So board says no

<jwinterm "fork off kinghat"> see, this is how it starts.

omg entire monero community hates hawaiian pizza how dare we

no i said the skeptical 🦛

not*

I know that was a joke, but for real we will take significant efforts to make sure this workgroup does not imply the will of anything unreasonable

Ok. Enough fighting. Group hug.

other than the tech and the og community, im here for the chaos of it all. any legal entity takes away from that for me. thats just one cent of my selfish take on it ☹️

see, chaos isn't the goal for most people

kinghat[m]: I know bro. It's hard.

Like when your favorite indie punk band makes it mainstream and has to go pop to survive.

relatable

oof the feels

i wasnt using chaos pejoratively here

<rehrar "Like when your favorite indie pu"> or when a band member leaves.. or they break up..

Let it be known that I sold out two years ago for a paycheck.

this is more like someone refusing to attend a concert because the band is no longer performing out of a garage because they are more successful than that and now play on large stages

Ok. Hear me out. A new MoneroKon. But for furries.

sold out. gone corporate. cut their hair!

rehrar: plz dont cut your hair!

😼

no smirk dog, what an oversight

Join #monero-yiff

core should shut that down

Immediately.

metallica cut their hair and were never the same.

luigi1111w: will take part

Dude, we have a guy named fluffypony

there was some fuzzy guys at monerokon last year

And our mascot js a bird

it was weird

Apparently

guys & girls

Wait what? People in fursuits at Kon?

the 14 word seed

whats the status

on that

I didn't see any fursuits /me goes back over photos of Kon

they came in for couple talks in morning session on saturday I think

one was fuzzy dino I think forget what other was

oh yeah

I forgot about that

I mean it's a downtown hotel so I suppose it's possible there was another Kon downtown or something

Feds probably

Everyone knows feds = furries

alright pop stars, I'm out for now. if anyone feels like their Blockfolio pushes are taking too much time or they can't handle the tax burden of paying for servers any more, you can always PM me. it's easier than forming an LLC. if you have the urge to feel bullied or victimized and need to kick someone, I'm there for that as well. <3

there were a bunch of furries at the LGBT party under the Monero Defcon party in 2018

"dsc_" (matrix.to/#/@freenode_dsc_:matrix.org): tevador hasn't been active for about 2 months reddit.com/u/tevador

Reddit or GitHub

Geonic nerds don't bully well. :/

O__o

rehrar is booly

xmrscott[m]: thanks

Nuuuuu

"dsc_" (matrix.to/#/@freenode_dsc_:matrix.org): I'd probably PM them on reddit or if you seem them on IRC, IRC I guess (on mobile so can't easily tell)

\whois tevador

Bah, Matrix can't handle either slash

+v rehrar

he's not in dev channel and last github commit was july 4

just wondering if someone were to create a new GUI if that would use 14 word seed and ignore legacy

wouldn’t you need backwards comp?

it would be nice, but necessary

if someone wants to restore their old wallet

people can restore on other wallets I suppose

I would guess you don’t gain much from only supporting 14 word seed

unless tevador also provided a conversion utility

xmrscott: message @appservice-irc:matrix.org with !whois tevador

as GUI wouldn’t bother with wallet2 code anyway

selsta: it would, since restore height is embedded, its more fool proof

ah true :P

I have traumatic experiences from helpign people with bad restore heights

"welp my balance is gone"

everytiiem

so just wondering if any new GUI should just use 14 word seed and be done with it

always set restore height to 0

Make the change sooner rather than later. We're still niche.

Quick! Before the masses get in!

there is a non-zero chance your address might have received random xmr before you created it

We're still on the ground floor!

charuto: haha

rehrar: yes

Buy BTC, sell altcoinz

Selsta is a maximalist!

selsta is bae

"charuto" (matrix.to/#/@charutocafe:matrix.org): Thanks

dsc_: 2troo

w0w

I want a calendar of 2021

Every month is a new selsta pic

!tip selsta 1 barolo

Sell on cypher market

maybe pointers from the KDE community could help us: pointieststick.com/2020/08/04/the-s…-kde-or-how-anarchy-sometimes-works

KDE actually has a foundation that keeps the Qt company in check

ya well see how long that lasts

havent recent developments suggested a move in the wrong direction?

kinghat[m]: regarding Qt?

ya

yes there is a cyberwar going o

going on*

let me find the blogpost

im sure ive read it. was a few months ago

i think i talked with you about it, actually.

ahh

but yeah basically KDE is in danger maybe idk

but the article is fitting and timely given the recent goings on here.

not really

the discussions here rarely impact development efforts

while KDE vs Qt do

There was a flare up circa March/April

(that sounded worse than I meant it btw)

Nothing came of it, Qt backed down from their shenangians

dsc_ why r u so meen

yes but we are an anarchy like lot

also a sponge

KDE has a license in place to split from Qt should Qt be evil, we are le safe from framework fights

surprised it hasnt been forked

Because it's mutually beneficial

lul

KDE contributes to Qt, as does Qt. Only when Qt's greed gets enough to change the license will things hit the fan however briefly

Well I would assume that a good portion of Qt employees are former open-source devs or otherwise came from that background

so it's not greed, more likely a commercial company (thats also tradeable btw) in bad financial state

due to corona and whatevs

really doubt it's just greed

and then their shareholders get salty

I mean I think any publicly traded company is subject to shareholder greed

the tragedy of capitalism

Exactly

fork Qt, open, dont profit. simple.

Yeah, but then you lose the labor of the Qt conpany. Which is bad because now KDE have to waste energy on the framework itself making everything dandy for Wayland, etc

maybe the power would shift to the open project instead.

KDE is certainly holding the cards I think

i think the opposite and will get burned but only time will tell 🤷‍♂️

Why use a framework you have to pay for when you can use the exact same code for free. Qt would have to develop lots of shiny features in a short time to ask for money

would have to come up with a different business model.

Hello guys, i just saw in Twitter a gif (meme) about Monero Comunity Workgroup "LLC"

Are the team behind that page turning on a legit institution? If yes, i think maybe is better to change the name "Comunity " ??

sgp_: rehrar : needmoney90 : ^

There people are comparing Monero Comunity Workgroup like a Electric coin company... 🤣🤣 i think is nonsense, AFAIK MCW is not directly the "Monero Comunity " right?

What page?

geonic's Twitter

Twitter account I mean

Oh

Of course

xmrscott: yes, exactly! You know him

Lol

Lovera: You're correct, basically the three I pinged above are exploring creating an LLC to sponsor things like a forum outside of reddit, etc

Good faith huh

Nothing crazy is changing

-community will still be owned by Core team, etc

Lovera no, it is not the community. Its a potential future LLC used to organize payments/funds and an umbrella for a number of social media accounts (so they're not in the hands of one person, in case of disinterest/(please no) death or something).

With the ability to decide who has access to what accounts, among other things.

Monero Hamlet Workgroup

Lovera[m]: there is nothing to worry about. There is no entity that represents Monero to the extent the ECC and ZF represent Zcash. That is an egregious false equivalency

Link to tweetM

?

Monero Body Politic LLC

Best to ignore

2 likes lol

Yeah just ignore, not a big deal.

Just another sign he has no interest in actually engaging in a meaningful way.

lol jw

Sad :/

wownero and thunderosa such traitors

wow

:DDD

He helped a lot for Monero Means Money

Monero Neck of the Woods LLC

has a nice ring to it

<xmrscott[m] "Lovera: You're correct, basicall"> Oh!! Nice! I think is a good idea, so what is the problem?

Corporations big bad

Lovera[m]: we want to set up a bunch more community resources

Things like forums, storage, task boards, etc

Lovera: geonic wants a forum ran by a single individual like Thyrmos of BitcoinTalk or something or likes trolling, who knows

Twitter alternative Mastodon

they keep conflating this with stuff like blockstream, ECC, the ethereum foundation, despite none of those being reasonable comparisons

No they’re not at all similar lol

we have grown large enough that potentially thousands of dollars a year will be flowing through individual hands

<sgp_ "Lovera: there is nothing to worr"> Yes i know, is not a right equivalency... Is something like Monero Outreach right? Is a separate from "Monero" like ecosystem

Yeah, there's a level of separation

and that kind of requires some sort of legal structure

forgive us

Lovera[m]: I can see your passion on Twitter, thanks for being here :)

Same here, thankful for all your outreach on Twitter!

<sethsimmons> Just another sign he has no interest in actually engaging in a meaningful way. <- I've offered to help with what are being given as the reasons this LLC needs to exist in the first place. So far, no takers. I'll continue to offer my help, regardless of whether you think it's meaningful or not.

geonic: you don't seem like a cool-headed person to serve in a leadership position to me

So best of luck. I can't control what you do, but I hope you see your actions as destructive

sethsimmons: sgp_ thanks guys 🙏

where did I say I want to be in a leadership position?

We need people to take ownership of tasks

needmoney90: certainly more money goes through core than thru the cwg

afaik core has some sort of legal structure there

fluffypony can you comment?

I have no idea but do you think pony needs to comment?

Why comment? To perpetuate irrational fear?

Nah, I just recall some sort of legal structure being in place for core

Ok

wtf is this? moneropaymentsolutions.com

sgp_: not sure who your comment was directed at

Mostly nm

spg_ I didn't take ownership of the tasks I handled for MMM? it's kind of disappointing that you feel like you need to give out qualifications.

Monero Payment Solutions with "100% Transparency" haha