00:21:14 yikes: 00:21:14 https://twitter.com/SVNewsAlerts/status/1290753501598027778 00:21:14 https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1290676318871445505 00:39:49 needmoney90: Isn't there something like Changelly, but w/o the KYC/email registration BS? 00:45:30 Ah, MorphToken is what I was thinking of 00:46:00 They don't support ZEC for better or worse 00:49:29 Not even transparent? 00:51:32 Not even transparent 00:51:58 Limited to BTC, ETH,XMR, LTC,Dash, and BCH 00:53:55 morphtoken, changenow, tradeogre 00:54:09 oh for ZEC 00:56:29 As a sidenote, do not recommend Simple Swap now; they ate my moniez 01:29:28 needmoney90: Don't spend it all in one place. https://explorer.zcha.in/accounts/t1YSMT1y3U6QsHB242ffkyRL8ki8JmtDShP 01:30:12 thank you :) 01:30:20 * needmoney90 spends it in a traceable way 03:03:24 needmoney90: I'm super looking forward to this :) 03:04:50 Add the FB to the list of services that needs a dedicated maintainer https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i3uatl/does_anyone_know_someone_in_control_of_the_monero/ 03:04:52 [REDDIT] Does anyone know someone in control of the monero facebook page? It is reinforcing every worst stereotype about cryptocurrency and might well be the main way that some people are exposed to the Monero brand (https://i.imgur.com/BcM60d3.png) to r/Monero | 23 points (84.0%) | 6 comments | Posted by asrtartaass3332323 | Created at 2020-08-04 - 23:27:17 05:27:07 So I got a PM from an exchange 05:27:11 and for once 05:27:16 its very cool 05:27:17 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/exxMlQPi/image.png 05:27:53 seems that changenow is donating 0.4% of volume that goes through their monero exchange to the devs (still uncertain how) 05:41:09 bitmonero hmmm 05:42:42 I would imagine that they would send to the general fund 05:44:23 I have no idea but someone mentioned that their exchange rate is not very good 05:52:26 * needmoney90 shrugs 05:52:44 They're freely donating a portion of proceeds, regardless of their exchange rate 05:52:45 thats neat 06:19:44 Yeah, the more funding can be decentralized, the better off the project/ecosystem is 07:26:51 What if the company won't absorb "#monero-community"? I think most of the problems would be solved if you would just use a name which is not "Monero community workgroup" and not include some of the assets you want to absorb. 07:28:12 I don't see why it must be either #monero-community will be incorporated in the company or other people will run these meetings. Why must be like that? Can't the company just be a different entity on its own that provides those services (jitsi, youtube stuff, etch)? 07:29:06 I don't understand why you want a gerarchy to be so defined (i really don't like the notion that is keep being pushed: we are the leaders, you are community members) for the community workgroup 07:29:16 can't those be two parallels things? 07:29:41 without one absorbing the other. I really don't see the need of that if the main goal of this company is to make easier to pay bills 07:32:51 You want to have a better way to pay bills/taxes and maybe grow in something more structured. Sure, go ahead. Just don't absorbe the existent structure with the only reason "we are the leaders of that structure, so we decide its destiny". That mindset will only create conflicts, as we are seeing. 07:36:35 Also, the fact that these intentions weren't discussed at all with the community is quite bad and shows again the mentality "we are the leaders, we decide how to move forward". You cannot really expect people to be happy about this move, that's why you are getting a lot of pushbacks. 07:37:19 so then setup a company that provides services to the workgroup 07:37:26 and if the workgroup doesn't like it then they don't have to use the company? 07:37:36 exactly 07:37:44 the company and the group don't have to be the same thing 07:37:48 *workgroup 07:38:01 They're not 07:38:20 they are not in theory but they would be in practice 07:38:57 I mean, not really. #monero-community would continue to be a meta of the other workgroups 07:39:18 yeah, but technically is an asset of the company. Why is that necessary? 07:39:31 It's not though 07:39:52 Literally anything #monero-* is 'owned' by Core/Freenode admins 07:40:23 Then you agree with me listing it as an asset of the company doesn't make sense 07:41:08 Maybe I missed it, but please quote either the draft or the backscroll wherein it's listed as a resource 07:41:19 good to know that fluffypony and luigi1111 are of the same opinion. I hope they are heard. 07:42:26 It was stated multiple times that the LLC doesn't own any assets 07:42:42 the LLC should be in service of the workgroup, not the other way around. 07:42:50 geonic: in fairness, I'm just asking questions, I don't actually know much about what's being proposed 07:43:11 See: ^ 07:43:15 xmrscott: #monero-community is listed under the resources/assets in the gist sgp published 07:43:22 i don't have it handy now, i'm going by memory 07:43:33 https://gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/77932db05ada82012d4f86bc862c17fb 07:44:14 xmrscott: Well, that's not true. There is an entire chapter named "Assets, Services, and Responsible Parties" 07:44:27 "The following are assets and services provided by the MCW. They are maintained by the listed responsible parties, which can be committees." 07:44:34 tks 07:44:40 the first listed asset is #monero-community 07:44:59 "Asset or Service" 07:45:08 Or Service being the keyword here 07:45:37 a chat room is not a service by any definition :) it's digital real estate. 07:45:50 how can be #monero-community a service? 07:45:53 "Meeting Committee" 07:45:57 and why list assets if there are none? 07:46:13 Its in reference to the bi-weekly meetings that sgp/rehrar typically heads 07:46:24 that is the service, yes. 07:46:52 xmrscott: Also "or", is not the keyword at all. As i quoted: ""The following are assets and services provided by the MCW. They are maintained by the listed responsible parties, which can be committees."" 07:47:08 so saying there are no assets is simply not true or somebody messed up the terminology there 07:47:19 It's quite literally the column header 07:48:54 Individual items are 'assets' or 'services', the set itself consists of assets and services 07:49:28 If that's really the case i hope the terminology will be clarified, because right now i don't believe you are right 07:49:41 I mean, it's basic set theory 07:50:13 You have a bag of marbles. Marbles can be red or blue. The bag is a set of red and blue marbles 07:51:26 But that conflict with the description right on top of the table that says "[...]They are maintained by the listed responsible parties, which can be committees" 07:51:58 That clearly implys some kind of ownership, even if not practical (since as we said, they cannot own #monero-community) 07:52:14 Anyway, without going too much into the semantics 07:53:15 my proposal still stands: clearly separate the workgroup and the company. With one provifing services to the other (at this point i think we can discard the initial notion that was pushed "it's only to pay the bills") 07:54:36 Bills or services, this is a nuance that is perhaps lost 07:54:45 Let's take a Flarum forum as basic example 07:55:19 Sure, you have to pay the monthly bills for the VPS, domain etc. However, you do need people to play sysadmin, moderators, etc 07:56:09 However, it's primarily to pay the bills 07:56:19 As I understand it 07:56:27 Sure, the company sounds like a good fit for this purpose 07:57:05 That would be the company providing a service to the community workgroup. 07:57:13 I don't see any problem with that 07:57:20 Ok. Yay. 07:57:35 FWIW, the LLC name is not locked in stone. 07:57:52 Why yay. That's literally my proposal 😛 be an external entity, not absorbe the existing workgroup and transform it into a company 07:57:52 Rehrar said early on that they'd probably change the name to avoid misunderstanding 07:58:11 And that is quite literally their proposal 07:58:21 Yeah that was my proposal too :P 07:58:39 their proposal reads very differently to me 07:58:41 People seem to have misunderstood the #monero-community aspect and gotten stuck on that 07:59:01 It is only in reference to the bi-weekly meetings 07:59:18 No. That's not true. It was said from the beginning that the company is made "to give a proper structure to the workgroup" 07:59:27 not to work alongside it 08:01:08 I think there is a lot of confusion because differnet and opposite things have been said. After the feedback i hope the company board will come out with a better proposal that clarifys misunderstandings if there were any and clearly state the structure they want to adopt and what's the relation with the community workgroup 08:01:42 i remind you xmrscot that sgp stated that the company name could be different, but they will still act as "monero communtiy workgroup", that doesn't sound like separing the two things/ 08:02:28 forgot a t: xmrscott 08:02:48 So let's looks at the definition on the official website: The Monero Community Workgroup is one of the largest and oldest groups of people in the Monero community. It is focused on providing essential services, including community meetings, coffee chats, and more. It connects the various, wide aspects and projects of the Monero community together. 08:03:32 (https://www.communityworkgroup.org/home) 08:04:31 What specifically is the issue w/ giving that a formal legal entity? 08:05:08 does it actually need to be an LLC? 08:05:09 I'll give the community meeting as a freebie because the regular people who head it have never asked for help really for someone to take over, but that's about it 08:05:24 or is "some LLC" needed to pay the bills for the MCW? 08:05:34 there is a big difference between the two options 08:05:47 imo 08:05:57 I'm not a lawyer, so can't speak to LLC vs some other legal entity being the best choice 08:06:09 that's not the question 08:06:20 the question is whether the MCW needs to be a legal entity 08:06:29 or a legal entity is required to pay the bills for the MCW 08:06:45 exactly. That's what i mean with separing the two things 08:06:56 ErCiccione: yes, i agree with you 08:06:59 xmrscott I hope we can now agree that we are talking about different proposals 08:07:17 i think NOT separating the two things is antithetical to the MCW 08:07:44 but then again, i didn't create the MCW, so maybe that was always envisioned 08:08:16 I doubt it would've taken 3 years if that was the plan all along. 08:08:45 i don't think that's the case midipoet. Since the reason for creating the company is "we are getting bigger and we need to pay bills" 08:09:19 It's worth noting that the existing things are all owned by sgp, rehrar, nm90, etc. I have no issue w/ them bundling what they own for a variety of reasons into something managed by a legal entity 08:10:14 The fact that they are fine with renaming suggests they view what is in the proposal as different from what people consider MRW 08:10:27 xmrscott: Again, that't not a problem at all. I feel we are swinging from an argument to another 08:10:41 xmrscott[m]: there is a lot of truth in that point and this maybe the sticking point 08:11:08 they are fine with renaming <- as i already said. Sgp stated it was ok to rename the company, but they will still act as "monero community workgroup". We clearly need clarifications. 08:11:19 so the issue is that a legal entity is required to pay bills, and maintain/own assets 08:11:22 I believe they're fine with renaming as long as the LLC is the "parent company". i.e. the Alphabet to MCW's Google. 08:11:49 They will continue to oversee the resources they already oversee, namely Nextcloud, etc 08:11:50 MWG* 08:12:26 That's what they mean by act as MCW 08:12:35 Per the earlier website definition 08:12:41 to be honest, i was more concerned with the whole self appointed board, no line of redress, and no line for new board members that weren't voted in for by the board. i mean if ZCash did something similar, what would we say to that? 08:12:53 we might laugh a little. 08:12:57 As I see it 08:12:59 xmrscott: Come one you cannot interpretate their statements for us and tell us you are right and we are wrong :P 08:13:27 let's have some clarifications so no interpretations will be needed 08:13:28 Am I not allowed to interpret what they wrote just like you? 08:13:46 wut? 08:13:48 I'm simply showing another person can interpret it anotherway 08:14:26 Sure. That's your interpretation and i believe that according to the statements read until now, it's wrong. 08:15:15 midipoet: Yes I totally understand. I was admittedly a little taken back by that as well. 08:15:35 However people are free to spin up whatever community resources they want 08:16:07 If someone hates the Jitsi instance and wants to pay more for better servers, more Nextcloud storage etc, they are free to do so 08:16:25 Is how I've choosen to take it 08:17:50 Anything operated by the LLC or co-op or whatever it ends up being is completely tangent to the 'official' resources. Even if choose to believe it's a long con by them, they can't really damage the heart of the project with said tangent resources 08:18:10 xmrscott[m]: yeah, i suppose this is true, hence the repeated communications yesterday of something to the strain of"if you don't like it, make your own" 08:18:18 there is a lot of truth to that, i suppose 08:18:41 i wouldn't have maintained that position myself, but maybe i am a pacifist. 08:20:34 * Anything operated by the LLC or co-op or whatever it ends up being is completely tangent to the 'official' resources. Even if one choses to believe it's a long con by them, they can't really damage the heart of the project with said tangent resources 08:21:24 I mean, this has played out in so many ways across the past 4 years. 08:24:18 For example, people were frustrated since at least 2016 about fluffy being the primary speaker only 'face' to the project despite being primarily a code maintainer. So people like sgp took a very proactive role in giving talks, building out other things like Coffee Chat. An LLC may not feel as cypherpunk, but what happens when, and I hate to use this example, but it's the best example I can think of, the 08:24:19 creator of a resource dies unexpectedly 08:26:31 That account/domain may not come into control of someone within the community 08:26:32 An LLC better gurantees that, and is arguably more decentralized than a single person 08:26:33 BitcoinTalk forums is a great example of this I think 08:26:33 I personally would prefer a Monero forum to be controlled legally by multiple people rather than a single person like Thermos or whatever their alias is 08:27:33 Less subject to the whims of a benevolent tyrant gone mad 08:27:48 lol thermos 08:29:12 instead of spending his riches on big buildings or statues of himself, he's spending billions on new forum software that will never arrive 08:31:57 * xmrscott[m] goes off to grab some z's 12:52:08 Lots of conversation last night on the same topics we already discussed in detail 12:52:25 The three of us very much provide the "service" of biweekly meetings 12:53:51 We provide all these things and want to organize how we do it and allow more faces in. I genuinely don't see that as a problem 13:10:36 in many ways, the "fight" over this channel shows the problem; the Monero community workgroup is not and simply cannot be an IRC channel only 13:20:30 and this IRC channel isn't changing materially, so you're good there 13:22:00 Feedback on Monero Revuo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i40tg9/revuo_suggestions_concerns_complaints/ 13:22:01 [REDDIT] Revuo Suggestions / Concerns / Complaints? (self.Monero) | 11 points (87.0%) | 1 comments | Posted by Rehrar | Created at 2020-08-05 - 07:20:52 13:31:26 Thanks for sharing that, I've added a couple comments 14:32:40 sgp_: Since the conversation is closed on your side and the intention of transforming the workgroup into a company is clear (I get from the silence that the idea of having a company providing services to the workgroup as many suggested as been discarded too), i don't see any point in commenting further, i agree. I will wait to see the public announcement of the final form of this company to state my conclusions. 14:33:59 And by that i mean that there have been a lot of conflicting statements and unanswered questions. Makes sense to see where this thing is going before commenting further. 17:07:23 https://mobile.twitter.com/ZenGo/status/1291003566346457090 17:10:30 fluffypony: if I had a twatter account, I would vote 17:10:37 lol 17:12:49 fluffypony: Are they well known? I've never heard of them 17:12:57 never heard of them 17:13:01 just cross-posting 17:13:14 Oki 17:24:02 I've never heard either 17:24:19 we shall rename this channel to #monero-brigading or #monero-vote-manipulation 17:24:59 new keyless wallet! never worry about losing your funds again, we store it in plaintext on the blockchain so that it can always be easily recovered 17:29:58 asymptotically: lol 17:31:18 the goal of incorporating is so things can be paid for, correct? 17:32:02 kinghat[m]: really the main goal is to assist with everything we wrote out in the doc 17:32:15 but we need to pay for things to make that happen, yes 17:32:50 sorry im behind, is there a link to that doc? 17:34:42 sent 17:35:29 for the Monero Meme competition this Friday, make sure you have LibreOffice installed so I can send templates in Draw 17:35:34 that will hopefully speed things up 19:38:21 sgp_ nah, just rename it to #monero-community-LLC :) 19:39:05 To be fair, there is probably a good meme in this somewhere. 19:39:40 Wee three kings or something like that 19:50:19 waiting for Core to form their LLC next. I think they've put in a lot of work over the years and an LLC structure would benefit Monero as a whole. it would also simplify keeping rehrar on salary. 19:51:43 Die mad 19:52:20 mad at what? I think Core could hire more people if they were an LLC and we could be even more productive. 19:52:52 Your plausible deniability is completely transparent, dude. Nobody is fooled. 19:53:10 huh? 19:54:15 Lol. You're telling me that you really, honestly think core should make an LLC? And you're not being sarcastic? 19:54:29 geonic: let's not mix up Core and three people who aren't a part of the Core team 19:54:37 not sure if LLC allows pseudononymous board members 19:55:04 at least not easily in practice 19:56:34 rehrar - since when does sarcasm require plausible deniability? you're framing it like it's a crime to jest with the three kings 19:56:49 lol 19:56:57 geonic: please take it down a notch 19:57:02 actually several 19:57:26 no one reasonably thinks jest is a "crime", cmon 19:58:55 you're trying to compare two obviously dissimilar things (Core with others). This workgroup never has officially represented Monero 19:59:08 I propose that we take it down a notch with the legal terms. at least until you've renamed the channel to -LLC 19:59:17 nah 19:59:39 sgp_ you wield a lot of soft power in the community. let's not pretend like the three of you are some random individuals. 20:00:07 pretty sure that most community members know your nicknames but not those of all 7 core members. 20:00:25 so they're not as dissimilar as you think 20:00:38 maybe that's because we have done all the work for all these community resources you use and benefit from all the time 20:00:49 s/all/a lot of 20:00:49 sgp_ meant to say: maybe that's because we have done a lot of the work for all these community resources you use and benefit from all the time 20:06:43 are you saying Core hasn't done a lot of the work that we benefit from all the time? if anything, you're drawing an even closer parallel. 20:26:15 it's absolutely not the same 20:30:11 why? were Core elected? or did they just roll up their sleeves and do the work that the community has benefited from? the three of you are basically saying, "if you don't like the way we're running things, fork it from us". so enlighten me how they're different. 20:39:40 I'm not going to describe how we are different than Core. If you don't see the difference, then so be it 20:41:58 ah, the old “If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry.” 20:42:57 What is your problem dude? You’re literally just trolling and being sarcastic with everyone. 20:43:12 It’s not helpful, and if you have real concerns discuss them like an adult. 20:43:37 sethsimmons if you have nothing to add to the conversation, I'd prefer if you kept your comments to yourself. 20:43:44 Coating everything in sarcasm and vitriol is unhelpful, demeaning, and has no place in real conversations. 20:44:03 I have added many things, they just didn’t annoy people and I’ve said my piece so I’ve let it be. 20:44:19 I’m not here to waste people’s time and demean those doing the majority of the work. 20:44:31 But I’m sick and tired of you wasting everyone else’s time. 20:44:42 how am I demeaning them if I'm saying their status is high enough to be compared to that of the Core team? 20:45:12 Every sentence is coated in sarcasm and is written in a rude and demeaning way, that is clear to everyone in here. 20:45:31 If you have real opinions and thoughts share them like an adult in a meaningful way. 20:45:38 You’re not helping anyone being a troll. 20:45:49 Unless you just get off on it. 20:45:57 Then I guess you’re at least helping yourself 🙃 20:46:18 You can have contrarian opinions and share them in a way that’s constructive. 20:46:28 I wasn't speaking with you and I'm not engaging with you going forward. Please direct your comments elsewhere. 20:46:45 Enjoy. 20:47:05 Consider it speaking to everyone else in the room as a show of support 🙂 20:48:39 Back to the topic at hand. Justin, you're the face of the project in many ways that Core isn't. 20:48:54 http://convos.yantra.pw:3000/file/2/RR3vHDA1Cuw0ZXJN 20:49:08 Blockfolio Justin Ehrenhofer, Diego Salazar, xmrhaelan, binartyFate (want to delegate to marketing) 20:49:12 CoinGecko Beam Justin Ehrenhofer (want to delegate to marketing) 20:49:17 Delta Direct Justin Ehrenhofer (want to delegate to marketing) 20:49:44 That just means he controls the new pushes to those services, it doesn’t even have his name attached. 20:49:50 I sort of do wonder why it's all delegation. Doesn't delegation imply hierarchy? 20:49:52 I don't see why you're asking to be held to a lower code of conduct than Core 20:49:54 It comes across as Monero the entity. 20:50:34 There is a hierarchy if they’re the ones doing/driving the majority of the work. 20:50:58 They’re helping to craft the overall action items/objectives, and those of us spending less time (like me) are happy to be delegated to to spread the load. 20:51:17 There doesn’t have to be some huge fear of a slight hierarchy 20:51:31 The protocol needs near complete decentralization, work groups do not. 20:51:44 I don't see it that way 20:51:53 I’m not sure why people get so focused on needing every aspect of a community to be wholly decentralized. 20:51:54 I always did things as I wanted to take responsibility for things 20:52:02 And was afforded that responsibility 20:52:03 That just means nothing gets done as we scale. 20:52:16 I am talking from my own experience 20:52:19 It's valid 20:52:28 If they own the thing, and want to hand off the thing, the word for that is delegation. 20:52:38 And I looked up delegation. It explicitly implies hierarchy 20:52:43 As I thought 20:53:16 So again, I wonder why the ethos is delegation 20:53:40 They can change the wording if it makes you feel better. 20:53:40 As opposed to "fostering a sense of shared responsibility" or some other such nonsense 20:53:51 What’s a better word for spreading the workload you already do to other people? 20:53:56 yes Seth. It's all about the wording. Silly me 20:54:34 What’s a better way to phrase that? 20:54:41 The same thing still has to happen 20:54:47 Seth. They took on the work for themselves. It was a choice, as far as I see it. Some of it may not even need to be conducted. 20:54:56 ie. I don't think Monero needs a Twitter 20:55:05 I definitely don't think it's needs a Facebook 20:55:20 It absolutely does need a Twitter, run by the community 20:55:20 It also doesn't need a TikTok instasham or any other crap 20:55:27 ok. 20:55:28 Facebook is actually an example here. 20:55:30 Or you’re missing a LARGE swath of users and devs. 20:55:33 We dont run a facebook. 20:55:36 Some scammer set one up 20:55:42 and now we cant really do much except complain to them 20:55:52 and if it gets taken down, someone else will pop up claiming to be official 20:55:56 needmoney90: exactly. We can't control everything 20:56:05 Do we get every Monero domain? 20:56:16 Every possible Monero Twitter handle? 20:56:16 The community tends to try, when possible. 20:57:02 needmoney90: what do you mean "when possible". 20:57:11 There are thousands possible 20:57:14 Its about people wanting an unofficial 'official' source for info on each platform. 20:57:19 And if we dont run one, someone else does. 20:57:48 If no good one exists, people go to bad ones. 20:57:51 They dont just stop 20:58:03 you can't stop people doing bad 20:58:10 you can create a source thats trusted. 20:58:13 And anyway, that's not the discussion 20:58:15 and point people there instead of nowhere 20:58:22 I started a discussion about the need to delegate 20:58:32 A need to do exactly whats happening now 20:58:49 people come in, ask what they can do, and get passed off to various workgroups based on what they say they're good at 20:58:50 You can still point people to trusted sources 20:58:57 thats literally what happens now 20:58:58 We do it all the time, and don't own all of them 20:59:01 I don’t really get what the SM point has to do with it 20:59:01 maybe thats 'hierarchy' 20:59:02 What does that have to do with delegation?’ 20:59:02 isn't that centralization though? 20:59:12 we are a source for knowing where to go 20:59:19 they can clearly choose anywhere to do anything they want 20:59:29 we are one option for giving direction 20:59:31 I was delegated part of owning the MCW twitter, its a good way to do things .shrug 20:59:51 If I had come up with something new that needed to be done I would have just done it 21:00:02 its a central place to get info for where to go or what to do, of potentially many 21:00:03 needmoney90: we don't need to own all the trusted sources. The WHOLE point is to ensure that trust moves outwards into the community organically 21:00:05 'centralized' 21:00:07 But the three OGs of MCW have done almost everything thats core to building a community, or started to 21:00:16 So that has to be handed off to new people, i.e. delegated. 21:00:28 we don't want control over most of it lol 21:00:38 Yeah no kidding lol 21:00:50 Can’t imagine managing all the platforms/sources involved ATM 21:00:57 sgp_ is a wizard 21:01:03 needmoney90: I don't doubt that the motives are benevolent, as I know all of you 21:01:13 Between 3 people, I’m excited to see more of that get spread out 21:02:03 I'm not here to complain about all the work I do; I however want to delegate it so we can keep growing 21:02:05 How could the “delegation”, for lack of a better word, be done better midipoet? 21:02:33 never give up control, benevolent dictator for life by force of shame 21:02:35 But if you can't sit back and say, yeah, ok maybe we shouldn't have appointed ourselves as the board, or maybe we should have thought about the name, or about the ownership structure, or about the line of redress, or about how the "formalisation" would be perceived.... 21:03:08 sgp_: maybe there won't be people to delegate to, as they don't want to be delegated at! 21:03:18 Maybe that's why people find it hard to stay around 21:03:22 lol delegated at 21:03:30 Maybe that's why we only have X amount of people... 21:03:38 How else could it be done better? 21:03:39 That's what I am getting at... 21:03:54 Instead of just shooting down the proposal, how could it be handled better to pull in all of these people waiting to contribute? 21:04:05 There is a certain perception about Monero (good or bad). LLCs, boards, hierarchy are not it (imo) 21:04:22 What is a better way to do it? 21:04:24 MyMonero is a company and it has Monero in the name, is that bad? 21:04:33 Make a clear proposal on how to do it in a better way than the proposed way. 21:04:35 A core team member runs it too 21:04:39 I don't know. How did it turn out!! 21:04:45 it's not bad. it's been a company since inception 21:04:51 It seems like a good overall proposal to me, with some small changes to LLC name etc. 21:05:06 it didn't transition from a community-run project to a company without community input. 21:05:30 An LLC being used to pay bills != MCW becoming a company lmao 21:05:46 you are all now employees, deal with it 😎 21:05:57 I want a raise. 21:06:00 shit does that mean I need to pay you 21:06:12 Inge- okay. 10% raise. Don't come asking for more soon though. 21:06:15 I would like a 10% raise on my 0XMR salary 21:06:20 Harrumph 21:06:22 I need to see the health benefits first. 21:06:38 independent contractors 21:06:41 or interns 21:06:43 take your pick 21:06:54 sgp_: it's not necessarily about the name (even though I do worry about it, but I am not a lawyer). It's about the ideology. I can't say I am right. But I can certainly say what I feel isn't right about it. I could also be completely off base. it seems others have similar concerns, but maybe we are all off base. 21:06:59 unpaid interns are so unethical lol. side rant we don't need to go on 21:07:35 What would you like to see done instead? 21:07:43 sgp_ interns are paid in more than cash 21:07:52 some people have something to learn from teams etc 21:07:54 They get some exposure too 21:07:54 why not a non-profit instead? 21:07:56 endogenic: yeah but 99.99% it's bullshit 21:07:57 and there are willing teachers 21:08:03 citation pls 21:08:12 msavoritias: A nonprofit...LLC? 21:08:12 Non-profit takes a ton of work/time delay up front apparently msavoritias 21:08:32 ignore me 21:08:39 I dont know the legal stuff thats someone else's part 21:09:11 sethsimmons: just have some entity/company that pays the bills. That's it. I don't see why anything more is needed in terms of formalisation? 21:09:23 leaning doesn't bring food on the table for interns though. Its basically free labor 21:09:26 we need an entity for payments, and to aggregate 'ownership' of various handles above individuals, because people leave or get disinterested or (please no) die. 21:09:27 endogenic: off-topic, no need to actually discuss 21:09:28 seems more ethical than an LLC 21:09:29 sgp fluffy and i put a ton of time and money into mymonero knowing it would only produce open source software rather than revs during much of my tenure 21:09:34 Like an LLC? 21:09:48 when other projects focus on monero 21:09:51 or a cooperative. 21:09:53 (not your fault, my fault for bringing it up) 21:09:54 dedicating brand to it 21:09:54 And then spread the existing/new work among people, via something like delegation? 21:09:56 that's a good thing 21:10:44 how does btc handle this? 21:10:56 not mcw != monero 21:10:59 *note 21:11:07 They don’t have an community workgroup AFAIK 21:11:10 like blockstream != btc 21:11:25 It’s all organic, but we aren’t afforded the luxury of first movers advantage/network effect. 21:11:26 its just theymos 21:11:30 Lol 21:11:38 theres no workgroup, just theymos 21:11:42 at least for the time period that we 21:11:46 we have thrmos 21:11:47 we're discussing in its history 21:11:50 btc community is a dumpster fire 21:12:03 at least on Reddit 21:12:07 needmoney90: sure. I get the practicalities. I never said no to a company/entity. I mean, I don't think any of it is that important to be honest, and if it is, give it to core. They are the stewards 21:12:19 and you asked why its needed for more than payments 21:12:23 sgp_ i find it weird you tell me what to say or not discuss 21:12:24 as I said, people die, or get disinterested 21:12:27