-
geonic
quick question. why are tweets going out when the Atomic Swap paper hasn't even been fully vetted by MRL (Sarang)?
-
geonic
talking about the official @monero twitter account. he would be the first person I'd ask before announcing something like that. or are we doing pre-announcements now?
-
fluffypony
geonic: we want to invite others to review it and comment on it, surely?
-
fluffypony
the Twitter account Tweets lots of ecosystem stuff, including announcements
-
geonic
if that was the intention of the tweet then it certainly doesn't convey it. it flat out says "successful completion of research" when even our very own research lab hasn't given it its blessing
-
Inge-
geonic: It is a new bull market. Preannouncements are practically required. Next week we start pre-announcing preannouncements.
-
» Inge- takes out the duster and dusts off the Monero Enterprise Alliance
-
fluffypony
geonic: the CCS proposal was successfully completed, I'm pretty sure that's all it was meant to convey
-
fluffypony
I don't think "blessed by the MRL" is a criteria for research on Monero
-
h4sh3d[m]
geonic: the CCS proposal was successfully completed, that's the intention of my post on Reddit at least.
-
h4sh3d[m]
I hope one day receiving MRL's blessing!
-
geonic
h4sh3d[m]: all clear on that and am super grateful for your work, as is everyone else. asking about twitter here. hopefully the author of the tweet can chime in. :)
-
fluffypony
the author of the Tweet is anonymous, all Tweets use a ring signature
-
fluffypony
:-P
-
h4sh3d[m]
;D
-
fluffypony
seriously, though, knowing who has access to the Twitter account is a security risk
-
fluffypony
they can then be targeted with spear-phishing attacks, or wrench attacks
-
fluffypony
so I doubt the author will chime in
-
geonic
we know who has access to the twitter account, fluffy
-
geonic
it's not a secret
-
fluffypony
(and it wasn't me, before anyone thinks that it was)
-
kayront
fluffypony!
-
kayront
when fluffypony joe rogan?
-
kayront
:D
-
fluffypony
geonic: I doubt so, we totally changed the access list during the recent Twitter attack
-
kayront
i can see it in my mind, tell the audience you got to the US by boat
-
fluffypony
like as it was happening
-
fluffypony
just in case
-
fluffypony
kayront: LOL
-
kayront
hehe
-
kayront
man, you're a character. in the nicest possible sense
-
kayront
<3
-
kayront
bonus points if you'd pull an elon and get ultrabaked in the show
-
kayront
****, I'd pay for that episode
-
ErCiccione
What's with these CCS proposals asking to be funded for 6 months? some folks are even asking 37k O_O
-
kayront
adoption
-
geonic
I'd be more worried if one of the devs with merge access got phished than whoever runs the Twitter account. and that information is public, so the "it's for your own security" argument doesn't hold water for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-
geonic
we also know that what happened on Twitter was not due to any individual user getting phished, but a Twitter admin.
-
geonic
anyway... I rest my case. the tweet was in bad taste. "we", meaning Monero, should not be "happy to announce" any research until the research lab has taken a look at it. It was even mentioned by name in the tweet, so it's easy to see how it could be interpreted as having that seal of approval.
-
fluffypony
we didn't know at the time
-
fluffypony
so our reaction was to dump the ACL off a cliff and then change up who has access
-
fluffypony
it became apparent a few hours in that it wasn't spearphishing against account holders
-
xmr-pr
[css-proposals] Avis opened pull request #160: Norwegian translation of User guides & Moneropedia
-
xmr-pr
-
gingeropolous
ErCiccione, the press kit is all creative commons, right?
web.getmonero.org/press-kit
-
gingeropolous
i can't se eit on there
-
sarang
geonic: I am not the gatekeeper for research
-
sarang
Nor should be
-
sethsimmons
Yeah I really see no reason that there has to be MRL approval before sharing of any Monero-related research
-
sethsimmons
Especially when h4shed has been working off and on with the MRL throughout the process
-
sarang
How research is presented by different channels (like Twitter accounts) is up to those channels
-
sethsimmons
It's exciting research that has been completed per the CCS, and should be shared as such.
-
sethsimmons
That doesn't negate that it's great if sarang et al review and contribute more feedback moving forward, but this is just the research phase, and I'm sure lots more will be shared/learned as it moves towards a working implementation.
-
sarang
I love that research is being done by a broader set of people
-
sarang
Sign of a healthy ecosystem
-
sethsimmons
Absolutely, GREAT to see the growth in interest around research by people outside of MRL.
-
sarang
Swaps are tricky in their risks, and I want to be sure I fully understand how they apply to this construction
-
Inge-
I wonder how long it takes to sync 16.0.1 from scratch
-
Inge-
will soon know...
-
sethsimmons
Whats your HW?
-
Inge-
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-8559U CPU @ 2.70GHz
-
sethsimmons
What disk?
-
sarang
sethsimmons: you make a good point that research does not guarantee implementation
-
sarang
Plenty of research does not result in code, and that doesn't mean it isn't useful or important
-
Inge-
samsung sata SSD
-
Inge-
sethsimmons: it is a little unfair since now at the start I am also copying a bitcoin and electrum node onto it
-
sethsimmons
Poor SSD haha
-
sethsimmons
<sarang "Plenty of research does not resu"> Yeah, our "filter" for research can (and should IMO) be much looser than that of an approved implementation
-
sethsimmons
Even if the work was off in a few areas, it's a valuable and large leap forward to trustless swaps with Monero and should be lauded as such
-
Inge-
sethsimmons: hm. cpu is running around 100C I think I need to check the cooling
-
sethsimmons
Not to mention sharing it broadly quickly helps to draw more eyes on the research (hopefully) and gives more of a chance to see others chime in and improve it/help in the future.
-
ErCiccione
gingeropolous: i'm not sure if we have a dedicated cc license for those files. I can take a look later.
-
sethsimmons
<Inge- "sethsimmons: hm. cpu is running "> uhhhh yeah your CPU cooler is broken/not seated
-
sarang
I hope h4sh3d[m] posts to the IACR archive too
-
Inge-
sethsimmons: if there is interest I could do another run later on the 3970x + 3x NVME drives in raid0
-
sethsimmons
<Inge- "sethsimmons: if there is interes"> I'd love to see a HW comparison post/tweet thread/etc., but lets take this convo elsewhere :)
-
h4sh3d[m]
sarang: I didn't yet but wiil do
-
sarang
Only if you wish to
-
sarang
But it will give it more eyes for sure
-
sarang
And perhaps publicity
-
sarang
The process is quite easy
-
h4sh3d[m]
yes, that's why I want to do it
-
sarang
Great!
-
h4sh3d[m]
more eyes
-
sgp_
IACR would be great
-
sgp_
mostly just to get all those crypto news articles from it
-
sgp_
(kidding, I know sarang hates this)
-
sarang
-___-
-
sgp_
on a different note:
-
sgp_
the MCW board was able to vote yesterday and drafted their high-level ideas for this workgroup going forward
-
sarang
I'm fine with media coverage as long as it makes clear what a preprint is
-
sgp_
-
sgp_
We feel that formalizing the workgroup will allow for new participants to get involved, especially on non-developer projects
-
sarang
Why an LLC?
-
sgp_
and it will make maintaining community resources more stable and less reliant on people like Diego, Doug, and me
-
midipoet
yeah, was going to say - what is the LLC about?
-
sgp_
sarang: good question, something we talked about a lot
-
sarang
I think that will be interpreted as saying the Monero community is a company
-
sarang
Even though it isn't
-
sgp_
as you all know the workgroup is very much acting in an informal nonprofit capacity at the moment
-
sgp_
we considered an official nonprofit registration, but that is a ton of work, more than any of us can manage to put in at the moment
-
sarang
Yeah a 501(c)(3) would be a lot
-
sgp_
and we decided that the benefits of having some entity are too strong to pass up
-
sarang
Like what?
-
midipoet
why does it have to registered in the US?
-
midipoet
if even registered at all?
-
sgp_
for example, having a bank account to pay for server fees, rather than having me pay for them and doing a CCS all the time in XMR, then converting on an exchange someone is registered on rather than an entity
-
sgp_
midipoet: doesn't have to be, but all our expenses are in USD
-
midipoet
sgp_: fair point
-
midipoet
maybe we should work towards greater geographical distribution, especially in your board. i mean if the US gets nuked, MCW is screwed
-
sgp_
midipoet: if it gets nuked (unlikely; we aren't doing anything illegal), we can operate unregistered again I guess
-
sgp_
I consider it getting nuked an extremely low risk
-
sgp_
oh wait
-
sgp_
read that wrong
-
sgp_
hopefully we don't actually get nuked :)
-
sgp_
but then you all are here to start your own entity or whatever. It's just been US people putting in a lot of these efforts so far
-
sgp_
TL;DR on why we want an entity: we want a bank account
-
midipoet
well, personally i don't really agree with all the formalisation, but if you think it's necessary - its up to the board!
-
sgp_
other than the company, what are your other concerns?
-
sethsimmons
It's certainly more formal/centralized than I expected
-
sethsimmons
But thats not necessarily a bad thing, and could help to drive this effort forward if handled well
-
sgp_
the biggest change in practice will be to come up with "committees"
-
sethsimmons
Honestly it's probably the right approach, as centralization of a workgroup is really an advantage IMO, as long as people still see the gaps where they can contribute/the leadership don't do weird things contrary to the communities wishes
-
sethsimmons
My only concern is if the board is interpreted as speaking on behalf of the project as a whole it could cause a lot of confusion.
-
midipoet
i think creating a board that votes for its own members is questionable
-
sgp_
would incorporating as "Not Monero LLC" help? lol
-
sethsimmons
XD
-
sethsimmons
I think just clear signalling/branding that makes it hard for people to conflate MCW the organization and Monero the project as one and the same
-
sgp_
"Justin, incorrectly represented as the king of Monero and an officer of Not Monero LLC"
-
midipoet
i also can't see (though i have not read it in that much detail) a formal manner to get someone removed from the board by the community.
-
midipoet
but anyway, i don't really mind. i mean i trust the three board members - but to outsiders it may seem very different
-
sethsimmons
Hmm thats a good point -- what community oversight is there if one or more board members goes rogue?
-
sgp_
the committees can perform a coup I guess and migrate everything over to their own entity
-
midipoet
there is also no defined reporting or audit mechanism for the board, as far as i can see?
-
midipoet
is the board accountable to anyone/group? what keeps them in check?
-
sgp_
midipoet: I don't think I included anything about specific reporting or auditing there
-
sgp_
but with an open finance workgroup, the finances will also be pretty open
-
sgp_
*committee
-
midipoet
whats an open finance committe/workgroup?
-
sgp_
basically volunteers who help with the basic books
-
midipoet
anyway, i am getting distracted. i am sure other's have questions
-
ErCiccione
I won't say my opinion, because i didn't give a deep read yet, but i wouldn't use the name "Monero Community Workgroup" for a legal entity. I think that would create a lot of confusion and could give the impression that an LLC is the general structure of Monero wokgroups, which is not the case. Monero workgroups are informal groups, if the community workgroup choose a different road, the difference should be
-
ErCiccione
clear
-
midipoet
i would also worry about having Monero in a LLC name
-
midipoet
i mean, could end up in a law suit somewhere
-
ErCiccione
Yeah i don't like that at all
-
midipoet
not that i am a lawyer, but anyway
-
sgp_
I'm more worried about the reputational risk than the legal risk
-
midipoet
to who, Monero, or youself?
-
sgp_
Monero if we named it poorly
-
midipoet
the risk works both ways, imo
-
ErCiccione
more i read the post more i think that calling it "workgroup" should be really avoided.
-
midipoet
the whole thing sort of reminds me of what ZCash would do. or some other cryptos that have foundations, entities, organisations, etc.
-
sgp_
well, we are neither Core Team members nor receive the block reward
-
ErCiccione
My general opinion is that if you want to make an LLC who works with Monero, you shouldn't really use the name "Monero workgroup" in it. Simply because the structure you are adopting is not the structure of a monero workgroup, but something completely different and i don't want people to think the monero community suddenly decided to adopt this structure for its workgroups.
-
ErCiccione
Personally i don't like such hyperformalization, i don't see the reason for it, but if people going be part of it are happy, good for you, but make clear that it's something different.
-
sgp_
We will do our best to make sure that there is as little confusion as possible. Most people will not even know there's an entity involved, since how would they know and why does it matter? We are an entity around for the sake of providing free services to the community
-
ErCiccione
I understand your point. But you are not just an entity, now you are a *legal* entity. I don't think making your best is enough, names are important. And calling a newly formed legal entity "Monero workgroup" is misleading
-
ErCiccione
Also, i woud like to have more info about the legal consequences of this change. Because if i understood correctly, now the biweekly community meetings will be run by this "official" entity.
-
ErCiccione
The #monero-community channel (and other things) is now listed as an asset of the company, what is changing from a legal point of view?
-
midipoet
i think the MCW should hire a lawyer to provide an impact assessment whitepaper
-
ErCiccione
I agree. I don't think you should just drop a change like this. Especially because you are not planning to create new tools, channels, resources, but to incorporate preexisting resources to a newly formed legal entity.
-
asymptotically
can you really own a freenode channel?
-
Mumuks[m]
fluffypony what is your relation to fluffychat? We demand answer
-
midipoet
he owns IT ALL
-
fluffypony
fluffychat?
-
asymptotically
this is MEA2!
-
asymptotically
.primer
-
monerobux
The point is not how much i made, point is fluffy did this on purpose, more than 10 people were in on it. His commit access needs to be revoked asap!
-
Mumuks[m]
fluffypony: don't pretend like you don't know?
-
fluffypony
I'm seriously lost - too much backlog lol
-
Mumuks[m]
"Open. Nonprofit. Cute" is your kind of slogan
-
Mumuks[m]
-
sethsimmons
Can we keep this on topic Mumuks:
-
sethsimmons
This is a pretty important discussion IMO
-
sethsimmons
<ErCiccione "I agree. I don't think you shoul"> I didn't fully realize that this was taking over many of the existing tools of MCW, which again, with the particular people on this board I'm not too concerned
-
ErCiccione
Yeah please avoid shitposting at least when an important conversation is ongoing
-
Mumuks[m]
I did not realize there was a conversation going on
-
sethsimmons
But it's a weird and sudden move that I was not expecting
-
sethsimmons
I didn't even know there was already a MCW board :D
-
sgp_
ErCiccione: we are not going to call the entity "Monero Workgroup LLC". Help us pick a better name
-
Inge-
"Monero Workgroup LLC (unofficial)"
-
asymptotically
Services For The Monero Community? a mouthful, but accurate :)
-
sethsimmons
I'm all for a formalization/organizing of the focus for the group, but the LLC and limited board with no oversight is a bit.. odd for something that many correlate to the Monero project as a whole
-
sgp_
also this channel is already technically supreme-owned by Core
-
sgp_
and it's already run by the same people
-
sgp_
nothing is changing
-
sgp_
f we do something dumb, Core can take this channel from us
-
ErCiccione
But that's not really the case sgp_. Even in practice doesn't change anything, you cannot say that having some resources under the umbrella of a company doesn't make any difference.
-
midipoet
Core is also definitely not a LLC (afaiu)
-
ErCiccione
also, the name itself is not really much the point if the goal of the company is to basically replace the Monero Workgroup with a legal entity
-
ErCiccione
So if you change the name of the company but you call yourself "Monero community workgroup", doesn't really change much :P
-
sgp_
we still intend to call this the Monero Community Workgroup
-
ErCiccione
What is "this"?
-
sgp_
the operating name I guess
-
ErCiccione
Well, that's what my objection is about. Incorporating existing structures to a new legal entity with a closed board who decides about it, it's a move i don't like. And calling it "Monero Community Workgroup" is misleading. That's not a workgroug, you are just transforming a workgroup in a legal entity.
-
sgp_
Mastering Monero has always had a legal entity behind it, yet it's still open, people can contribute, and there's still a workgroup that's around supporting it that the entity is in "charge" of
-
sgp_
the board is closed, but the entity is basically irrelevant since it understands how to best work with the community, since it's made of community members
-
sgp_
the same people who have run the workgroup up to this point are the same three people who will continue to lead it
-
sgp_
and we don't need to mention the company really at all if it makes people weirded out
-
ErCiccione
"always had" is the key here and the entity produces a product "The mastering Monero book" so that makes sense. I don't understand why you speak like this change doesn't make any practical difference, it's obviously not the case, even if the people are the same and do the same things they were doing before.
-
sethsimmons
I guess I'll sum up my question as this: what advantage does a closed board and new LLC bring, instead of just an open CW that has an agenda item to formalize it's focus/goals?
-
sethsimmons
I think the formalization/focus is good, but I don't see why the closed board + LLC are necessary for that
-
sgp_
sethsimmons: the "closed board" is already how it works in effect; if there ever were disagreements, people would always need to start their own group
-
sethsimmons
I wasn't aware of that structure, but that's good to know.
-
midipoet
i actually always thought the community workgroup was just an open workgroup
-
midipoet
i definitely did not know there was a board
-
sethsimmons
Same, I had no idea there was a controlling group of 3, but I guess it makes sense that there is a core group driving things.
-
sgp_
midipoet: who did you expect has been planning all the stuff in the background for years?
-
midipoet
but a closed group?
-
midipoet
sgp_: the people who wanted to plan!
-
sgp_
yeah exactly :)
-
midipoet
i mean, i have lended some time to planning, so never felt it was closed
-
midipoet
but now you are saying it was, and also that you want to formalise it!
-
oceanus[m]
Oh wow another sjw code of conduct
-
sgp_
fwiw the group doesn't plan to ever be closed, which is exactly why we want to start delegating some tasks to people
-
sgp_
people who are able to help out
-
midipoet
what do you mean, you have just announced a plan to close the board!
-
midipoet
literally!
-
sethsimmons
He's saying the board will be closed, but committees will take over day to day tasks
-
sethsimmons
and will be sued to delegate things out
-
sgp_
the board still will care about community sentiment, and I guess you need to trust that us 3 will do that
-
sethsimmons
So functionally it will remain the same, just formalized
-
midipoet
so what if the board decides not to delegate, and to maintain control of the committees?
-
sgp_
then that's a terrible, tiny community lol
-
midipoet
(in some hypothetical scenario, let's say)
-
sgp_
and honestly that's what it mostly looks like now (see the gist for all the rando stuff I'm doing)
-
midipoet
sgp_: cmon, it' snot funny. we have seen things go bad
-
midipoet
saying "it won't go bad here"
-
midipoet
is not that valid...
-
sgp_
the intent is to get more people involved than are currently helping with these tasks
-
sgp_
with it being so informal, it's less clear what people should do, leading the barriers to entry high, and thus meaning the same faces keep doing the same work
-
sgp_
we should be getting new faces in here in new leadership roles
-
midipoet
yes, i agree.
-
midipoet
so having a closed leadership board that essentially owns an LLC, is not the way to do that, imo
-
sgp_
this entity is around to support the infrastructure I really believe needs to be in place to allow that to happen easily
-
ErCiccione
I really don't see the point in keep saying "it was already like that but not fomalized". It's not a formalizations. It's a transformation into a legal company, with legal obligations, which is trasforming public resources into "assets of the company". I feel like this point is being understated.
-
sgp_
ErCiccione: nah, the "assets" will still be open for anyone to use
-
sgp_
we can still CC everything
-
ErCiccione
In rpactice yeah, but not legally or formally
-
ErCiccione
you can't ignore that
-
sgp_
and if we don't, then we should receive pushback from you all, which is awesome and healthy
-
fluffypony
Mumuks[m]: hah cool - first time I'm seeing that
-
fluffypony
wish I could take credit
-
fluffypony
but it's not mine
-
midipoet
why can't the MCW become a co-operative?
-
fluffypony
looks like it's just a Matrix clieent
-
fluffypony
*client
-
midipoet
surely that legal structure is possible to implement?
-
oceanus[m]
sgp_ : you know what would be healthy? If you stopped making unnecessary power grabs. LOL
-
sethsimmons
Idk that this is a power grab.
-
sgp_
midipoet: possibly, depends what you specifically have in mind
-
sgp_
since when is "I need an easier way to pay bills" a money grab lol
-
fluffypony
not that there's lots of things a cooperative will struggle to do, for eg. get a DUNS number
-
midipoet
-
monerobux
[WIKIPEDIA] Cooperative#:~:text=co-op values.-,Cooperatives as legal entities,a range of social characteristics. | "A cooperative (also known as co-operative, co-op, or coop) is "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned enterprise".Cooperatives may include:businesses owned and managed by the people who..."
-
midipoet
cooperatives are pretty established where i am - and have substantial rights and affordances granted to them. may be different elsewhere, admittedly.
-
sgp_
midipoet: I would probably need to talk to a lawyer to start one
-
sgp_
a co-op might make sense; members who pay dues get votes, and they receive a "dividend" of sorts based on how much they spend on business goods/services
-
sgp_
a co-op isn't a standalone structure in the US afaict; it's a corporation or LLC acting as a cooperative
-
sgp_
imo to get this project off the ground, it's best to proceed as-is and consider operating as a cooperative if that makes sense. I need to do more research however
-
sgp_
members getting votes is reasonable to me
-
sgp_
I will need a good finance committee in place before we can do this though
-
oceanus[m]
Can't you just switch to a server that accepts crypto? What else do you need a bank account for?
-
selsta
I might have missed that in the backlog, what kind of USD payments is the workgroup expecting?
-
sgp_
selsta: servers for NextCloud, Flarum, Mastodon, Chatwoot, Sandstorm/Wekan, etc.
-
selsta
What is the plan for funding?
-
xmrscott[m]
"sethsimmons" (
matrix.to/#/@sethsimmons:matrix.org): On a board of 3 you'd need at least 2 of 3 to go rogue to be a real concern, IMO
-
xmrscott[m]
"sgp_" (
matrix.to/#/@freenode_sgp_:matrix.org): What is the main work with creating a non-profit? Is it annual upkeep or creation based that's the problem
-
xmrscott[m]
As an employee at my company I have access to a lawyer retainership thing for a flat $20/month that may be of use. Far rather have a nonprofit than a LLC
-
selsta
Creating a LLC or non profit just to pay for servers sounds super overkill IMO, isn’t this the exact use case for the general donation fund?
-
selsta
Hosting these services does not seem too costly
-
Mumuks[m]
Plus paying with USD for an xmr association when you can pay them with xmr is just sad
-
Mumuks[m]
Apart from bad pr
-
sgp_
Mumuks[m]: lol you find reliable, inexpensive servers payable in XMR for your own workgroup then
-
sgp_
selsta: Core doesn't want to maintain any of this
-
sgp_
and to be honest, there should be a group separate from Core who is willing to provide services
-
sgp_
xmrscott[m]: both? you need a bunch of initial policies, then you need to prepare the main application, then you need to file more extensive returns annually, and then you are prohibited from doing certain things
-
cassact[m]1
501c3 non profits are time consuming and expensive to incorp with irs because they have so many tax benefits, and they get a LOT more donations
-
xmrscott[m]
Ah, so might even need an accountant rather than just a lawyer
-
cassact[m]1
But there are other non profit structures. 501c4, 501c12,
-
sgp_
cassact[m]1: I know, I have one pending registration whose process started in early 2017 :)
-
cassact[m]1
Yeah IRS looks at 501c3s HARD
-
cassact[m]1
But don’t need to be a 501c3 to be a nonprofit, is what I’m saying
-
cassact[m]1
IMO it doesn’t really matter what the formal legal structure is, what matters is whose runnin it, and the bylaws
-
sgp_
yeah, that's my perspective too. plus we aren't anticipating a profit so the benefits of a non-c3 nonprofit would be very small
-
cassact[m]1
<sgp_ "Mumuks: lol you find reliable, i"> Capsul.org (which I’m a part of) has affordable and payable in xmr, but we are still in open beta
-
cassact[m]1
Our group is having a lot of these same discussions so it will be interesting to see where it goes here
-
sgp_
cassact[m]1: do you have scalable storage?
-
sgp_
we will need for NextCloud especially
-
cassact[m]1
By request yes.
-
dsc_
holy backlog :) What's the TL;DR? LLC for Community Workgroup?
-
cassact[m]1
<dsc_ "holy backlog :) What's the TL;DR"> Discussions around that topic yeah
-
sgp_
dsc_: yeah, only for the sake of paying for stuff y'all need :)
-
dsc_
seems benign
-
dsc_
In true Monero spirit, people can do with their workgroup whatever they want :P
-
sgp_
cassact[m]1: Cyberia is out of Minnesota? Nice :)
-
sgp_
are the servers there too?
-
xmrscott[m]
Indeed. People can create a 'Monero Illuminati LLC' if so inclined and throw XMR at people if so inclined
-
cassact[m]1
Our matrix and jitsi server is
-
cassact[m]1
<sgp_ "are the servers there too?"> We shipped off our Capsul server to Georgia though. Also right now we are pricing .25 cents for additional GB
-
midipoet
so is anybody allowed to make s claim for community assets to be incorporated into their LLCs as well?
-
midipoet
checking for a friend
-
cassact[m]1
Iirc that’s pretty fact specific
-
xmrscott[m]
"midipoet" (
matrix.to/#/@freenode_midipoet:matrix.org): I mean who is going to stop you, the Monero Illuminati?
-
midipoet
nobody i suppose. all's fair in blockchain wars episode 4.
-
sgp_
midipoet: I have no idea what you're getting at
-
midipoet
It was a joke sgp_ , I was intimating that there are no real rules in the land of blockchain, as its decentralised and trustless.
-
sgp_
ah
-
sgp_
I will confirm with anhdres that we can continue using his artwork
-
sgp_
'cause that brick-building Monero logo one is amazing
-
ErCiccione
Let me just say that i'm not a big fan of "That's how we do it, if you don't like it fork away (or fund your own group)" IMO it's just an absolute mentality who leaves very few space for growth and increase the possibility of conflict when there could be none.
-
ErCiccione
Beside, i still think that a for-profit company made to "pay bills" it's way overkill and doesn't explain the capillary structure of the company itself.
-
ErCiccione
In any case, i hope that when the company will be formed and the assets absorbed by it, it will be made public, so that people will be aware of the structure "above them". People who contribute to the "workgroup" must be aware of its legal structure
-
sgp_
What experience does everyone have here trying to manage US taxes, receiving donations, converting on exchanges, and paying bills for a non-formed organization on their personal tax return? Seriously
-
sgp_
it's easy to armchair this problem away
-
sgp_
sure, let me just handle all this extra work which messes up my other investment capital gains, no biggie 🙄
-
cassact[m]1
<erciccione_[m] "Let me just say that i'm not a b"> An LLC does not have to be “for profit”, only publicly traded corps with fiduciary duties to its shareholders have legal obligations to pursue profit
-
cassact[m]1
(Iirc)
-
ErCiccione
And that's why we need more pseudonym cypherpunks to join this community, so that leading a workgroup doesn't mess up with "other investment capital gains"
-
sgp_
lmao ok, that's respectfully absurd ErCiccione
-
sgp_
don't tell me to ignore tax laws
-
ErCiccione
It was just a provocation
-
ErCiccione
i never said that
-
cassact[m]1
IMO it’s mildly crazy that Monero Core doesn’t have a lawyer on payroll.
-
cassact[m]1
Cuz this is what lawyers are for haha
-
Inge-
maybe rehrar can do a by-mail degree?
-
sgp_
they kinda do indirectly through Tari, etc
-
fluffypony
yeah cassact[m]1 we do
-
fluffypony
we use the Software Freedom Law Center for some stuff
-
ErCiccione
It just make me feel a bit sad. I liked Monero when it was rough and dirty. Now i have the feeling that there is more interest in being compliance and make sure you don't bother uncle sam. I really understand the concerns and the wish of having a legal structure, i just think this is not a good way to do it.
-
fluffypony
and then stuff that falls out of their purview we use the GCs at Tari, GloBee, and one of my companies
-
fluffypony
so we really have no lack of legal help
-
sgp_
ErCiccione: this isn't the whole community. Everyone else can still do whatever they want. This workgroup tries to involve everyone, but it certainly doesn't represent everyone
-
rehrar
Core is sending me to law school boys.
-
sgp_
lol noice
-
cassact[m]1
@fluffypony oh good.
-
rehrar
"it's surprising Monero doesn't have an on staff doctor"
-
cassact[m]1
Oh god don’t do it rehear
-
rehrar
Core is sending me to medical school boys.
-
sgp_
fluffypony needs 24/7 anti-trolling counseling
-
dsc_
+1
-
fluffypony
rehrar: akshully I have a Level 3 First Aid from St. John's
-
fluffypony
:-P
-
dsc_
we need an intervention
-
sgp_
I have my First Aid merit badge, available for hire
-
fluffypony
ErCiccione: I think you can still be "rough and dirty" while still doing stuff that doesn't land you in prison
-
fluffypony
like you can work on privacy software and also pay your taxes
-
fluffypony
and there's also an argument to be made for being open to attack if you don't take pre-emptive action on things like copyrights, trademarks, and patents
-
cassact[m]1
Tbh I’d be surprised if core doesn’t end up eventually needing a whole legal team, Monero is like a ticking time bomb of potential thorny legal questions, and the devs are the most likely target for frivolous lawsuits and gov overreaching
-
fluffypony
(fwiw Tari Labs has got a slow burn side-project looking at building defensive patents for Monero and Tari)
-
sgp_
I think people overestimate the actions the US government will take against developers
-
sgp_
well, at least against developers who are not adminstrators of a centralized network
-
fluffypony
s/defensive patents/a defensive patent portfolio
-
monerobux
fluffypony meant to say: (fwiw Tari Labs has got a slow burn side-project looking at building a defensive patent portfolio for Monero and Tari)
-
cassact[m]1
<sgp_ "I think people overestimate the "> Your probably right, I’m just paranoid haha
-
fluffypony
sgp_: yeah definitely
-
ErCiccione
fluffypony: Yes, i wasn't talking about practical implications. it's just the feeling it's giving me. I too would have been surprised if core didn't have any lawyer or "legal strategy", but core has way bigger responsability.
-
ErCiccione
I think i made clear the multiple aspects of this change. I hope i am wrong about everything obviously, but i still didn't like the move.
-
cassact[m]1
Patent law is incredibly fascinating. It’s even explicitly mentioned in the US constitution
-
sgp_
any other questions or concerns? I wanted to make sure to openly share what we want to do that way there aren't any surprises, and allow for changes before they happen
-
ErCiccione
I still think that if the reason is really merely "to pay taxes", many things in the post i read are superfluous and many "assets" didn't need to be incorporated. Anyway, i wrote enough about it.
-
cassact[m]1
<sgp_ "any other questions or concerns?"> A suggestion would be to post Bylaws and (redacted) articles of incorporation online.
-
sgp_
I'm open to that, but they will probably be super boilerplate for simplicity
-
cassact[m]1
Also a warning to be very careful about who actually incorporates
-
cassact[m]1
Cuz depending on the state,
-
cassact[m]1
Personal details will probably become public
-
sgp_
I already incorporated a company called rCryptoCurrency LLC in Wyoming that will be renamed and restructured. Wyoming is a favorable state
-
cassact[m]1
Ah yup, that’ll do it.
-
sgp_
:)
-
xmrscott[m]
"ErCiccione" (
matrix.to/#/@erciccione_:matrix.org): FWIW, if you want that chrome cypherpunk feeling you can always attend the C3 Monero stuff in incognito assuming you don't already
-
ErCiccione
i've been trying to participate for 2 years. For one reason or another i never could. In the future maybe? Or maybe not, we'll never know :P
-
sgp_
ErCiccione: make sure to do the online Defcon stuff this weekend :)
-
dsc_
I hope HCCP is still a live event
-
ErCiccione
sgp_: Oh yeah, i won't miss that.
-
ErCiccione
Conferences with no human interaction <3
-
rehrar
dsc_: should I come?
-
dsc_
rehrar: yes
-
dsc_
you liked it so much last time
-
dsc_
!
-
rehrar
In regards to this whole LLC thing, I honestly don't think there's a wrong way to do this.
-
rehrar
For all accounts and purposes, the workgroup more or less already has just under a BDFL set up
-
rehrar
maybe incorporating under a name like Monero Resources would be better than community though. I see that concern for sure.
-
rehrar
because you can never underestimate people's stupidity. They will get it confused. The news WILL say that the Monero community started a business (when they didn't). If the business does something wrong they WILL say the Monero community did it (which would be wrong)
-
rehrar
we saw this with things like the Bitcoin foundation.
-
rehrar
Better to just avoid that entirely by choosing an appropriate name.
-
xmrscott[m]
That name certainly sounds better and at least less likely to cause confusion
-
rehrar
And no, adding Workgroup on the end doesn't fix anything. We won't be able to explain to everyone what a workgroup is.
-
rehrar
dsc_: hanging out with friends was fun
-
rehrar
the conference was kinda trash
-
dsc_
it was :)
-
dsc_
hmm I don't think it's trash
-
Inge-
what conf was that?
-
rehrar
HCPP
-
xmrscott[m]
Monero Center For Scrubs Who Can't Pay Good, or something
-
rehrar
critical thinking was at an all-time low, and maximalists ran rampant screeching about altcoins
-
Inge-
rehrar: cue today.
-
dsc_
.quote add <@rehrar> critical thinking was at an all-time low, and maximalists ran rampant screeching about altcoins
-
Inge-
$LINK! $XAMPL! $STORE! $HEX!
-
rehrar
and dsc_ didn't want me to play guitar
-
dsc_
rehrar: out of the 6 times i went to CCC i went to a total of 2 talks, soo for me it's more about meeting people and shitposting IRL as opposed to shitposting on IRC
-
dsc_
and one of those was a fluffypony talk
-
ErCiccione
rehrar: Those are exactly my concerns. I think using a different clear name would avoid a lot of possible issues.
-
rehrar
ErCiccione: Monero Conglomerate
-
sgp_
World Domination LLC
-
ErCiccione
Monero Evil Corp
-
rehrar
it's just I'm articulate and charismatic
-
rehrar
so I think I can be the MDFL of Monero
-
Inge-
I guess Monero Enterprise Alliance is out?
-
xmrscott[m]
moneroenterprisealliance.org and .com are available, FWIW
-
sgp_
lmao
-
sgp_
how about we don't actually make that a thing
-
fluffypony
we already have mea.business
-
fluffypony
because MEA means business
-
xmrmatterbridge
<cankerwort> I liked "fondajo" or however it was spellt
-
sgp_
yeah it was fondajo
-
zkao
if MEA partners up with our friends, the chain-analysis buddies, we can capture the highest grade, extremely low in dirt, precious bitcoins, against some average monero with atomic swaps. because, after all, all monero is average
-
xmrscott[m]
.mea
-
zkao
as in mea culpa
-
xmrscott[m]
Nah, just curious if the bot had anything for it, like it does for...
-
xmrscott[m]
.zooko
-
monerobux
And by the way, I think we can successfully make Zcash too traceable for criminals like WannaCry, but still completely private & fungible.
-
Inge-
MEA - Monero Enterprise Analysis suite of tracking software for Panopticoins
-
geonic
I'm with selsta midipoet and ErCiccione on that one
-
geonic
if it's about paying bills, why do you need to rename your rCryptoCurrency LLC ? just use that
-
geonic
have you asked for help from other community members with regard to accepting XMR and paying server bills in USD? or is your new legal structure solving a problem that you created by not asking for that help? I know there are plenty of people that would be willing to accept XMR and pay server bills in USD, myself included
-
sethsimmons
I would gladly also do that, if we could decentralize the ownership between a few people and rotate payments etc? Idk how that works out legally, though, as far as taxes are concerned for each of us
-
sethsimmons
But thats a great idea geonic
-
cassact[m]1
Decentralizing ownership should be fairly straightforward, especially if done before LLC has assets. Add new folks to the board, vote on share distribution.
-
geonic
it is even more straightforward than that. offer to decentralize before you've formed the LLC so that other members can take on the burden that you don't wish to carry. it's not like the community assets were created by the sole efforts of three individuals.
-
needmoney90
Its almost like you guys think an ad-hoc nonformalized way of ensuring payment and consistency are something to be avoided
-
needmoney90
its silly
-
sethsimmons
:P
-
sethsimmons
Overall I'm not completely against the LLC, just seems like its maybe a more drastic jump than necessary
-
needmoney90
The amount of libertarian drivel people in this community shout is disappointing sometimes. Its a direct impediment to actually getting shit done. And everyone who hasn't been directly involved in the existing (inefficient) processes thinks "well, why dont you just donate *more* of your time instead of doing things properly"
-
sethsimmons
But its also hard since we weren't privy to any of the conversations that led to this so I don't see a lot of the thought process.
-
sethsimmons
But the legal side is way out of my scope so I can't really comment on that.
-
needmoney90
Especially some of the people who are literally getting paid by the community getting pissy at people who are working, for free
-
needmoney90
Maybe some of your perspectives are skewed because you dont realize this is volunteer work.
-
geonic
wow. so doing volunteer work allows you to appropriate community resources into an LLC with an unelected board?
-
sethsimmons
I realize that 😕
-
needmoney90
And the moment us volunteers want to formalize and get shit organized so we can separate it from our own lives, we get yelled at for having the gall not to do it adhoc, ask for donations every month, or pay out of pocket
-
needmoney90
get over yourselves
-
geonic
needmoney90 you sound a little jaded from all the unpaid volunteer work you've been doing. maybe you should take a break.
-
needmoney90
I think your behavior is insulting for people trying to get shit done.
-
sethsimmons
Just stop geonic. No time to be so aggressive.
-
geonic
who's being aggressive? we're voicing our concerns and needmoney90 is preaching from the pulpit
-
needmoney90
lol
-
geonic
at least hear us out and maybe try to understand where we're coming from
-
sethsimmons
I realize the work you guys are doing, and I'm extremely thankful for it, I just think the people who are smaller contributors to MCW stuff were a bit blind sided.
-
sethsimmons
At least I was
-
needmoney90
Its literally a first draft
-
needmoney90
It's silly how up in arms a lot of you are
-
needmoney90
and some of the 'suggestions' for alternatives are laughable.
-
needmoney90
And geonic_ you're totally being aggressive.
-
geonic
the way it's been done for the past 3-4 years is suddenly laughable?
-
needmoney90
yes, because we've gotten just a tad bigger, yes.
-
sethsimmons
As we grow things are going to get... interesting with how informal/loose all of our consensus/workgroups are
-
needmoney90
ad hoc processes work in small venues
-
geonic
make a call for help and outline the responsibilities that need to be delegated.
-
sethsimmons
I'm thankful you three are trying to formalize/focus things.
-
needmoney90
lol
-
ErCiccione
needmoney90: since i'm the only one of the people who answered who is funded by the community i guess you are referring to me. I don't understand why you are being so aggressive
-
geonic
yeah that was way more aggressive than anything I've said
-
geonic
I think calling our concerns silly and laughable is dismissive and condescending
-
needmoney90
Well, its my opinion for a lot of the suggestions made.
-
geonic
when you haven't even asked for help and are shoving a solution down our throats.
-
needmoney90
I guess that's how you see it, but its not how I see it.
-
ErCiccione
But if what you are getting is "we don't agree with setting up a company because we want people to work for free" there isn't even much to discuss. That doesn't make any sense
-
geonic
fine, we see it differently. does it change the fact that you haven't asked for solutions from the community?
-
needmoney90
what do you think a first draft is
-
needmoney90
a mandate from god that's inflexible?
-
geonic
lol
-
geonic
" the MCW board was able to vote yesterday and drafted their high-level ideas for this workgroup going forward"
-
geonic
90% of your contributors didn't even know there's an "MCW board"
-
sgp_
I'm busy and can't respond now but will read later and respond
-
geonic
looks self-elected to me.
-
needmoney90
Most shit in this community is self elected by people who are actually doing stuff
-
needmoney90
if you can name anyone outside of rehrar sgp and myself who have been organizing -community i'm all ears
-
needmoney90
If you think other people are putting in work and unrecognized, please speak
-
ErCiccione
Ehm ehm
-
sgp_
-
monerobux
[REDDIT] Accouncing /r/moneromarketing (and some explanation inside) (self.Monero) | 22 points (77.0%) | 7 comments | Posted by Rehrar | Created at 2017-03-02 - 16:06:31
-
needmoney90
erciccione, you are paid. I don't consider your work on the same level here.
-
needmoney90
And you're mainly on translations afaik
-
selsta
rehrar is also paid
-
needmoney90
that is true.
-
selsta
why is that relevant
-
ErCiccione
needmoney90: dude, you should look up what i was and i'm paid to do and what i do and did unpaid beford saying nonsense
-
ErCiccione
I suggest you to calm down and come back to discuss later. You are not coming of very well from these rants
-
needmoney90
:/
-
sethsimmons
We need a bit of a restart on these discussions I think :P
-
sethsimmons
Why don't we make a meta issue about this to have more long-form discussions?
-
cassact[m]1
Yes plz
-
sethsimmons
That way it's easier for people to follow up on later as well, and more clear for people looking back.
-
selsta
getting paid for something does not make the work less valuable
-
cassact[m]1
Governance in general is both really important and really complicated.
-
sethsimmons
No kidding...
-
geonic
buy Decred! it solves it for you.
-
geonic
sethsimmons :)
-
geonic
if the organizing burden is suddenly too much for the three of you, lay out the responsibilities that you do not want to deal with and see if anyone steps up. announce it on Reddit and do it in a community meeting. if no one steps up to ease your burden, form an LLC or handle it however you wish. but if you don't follow the processes established by this community workgroup so far, don't be surprised by the backlash
-
sethsimmons
lol
-
sethsimmons
<geonic "if the organizing burden is sudd"> Yeah, i do agree with this, I am more than happy to jump in and do more, and will have a lot of time on my hands for sept-dec
-
geonic
yep, a lot of us are ready to step up. but the holy trinity has been burdened with so much and no one else is doing anything! and you're all paid, anyway! please...
-
sethsimmons
Not sure if an LLC/board is needed, but more formalized agenda's/action items/assigned tasks is definitely a must.
-
needmoney90
speaking of aggression geonic
-
needmoney90
you should take a break.
-
geonic
when did sarcasm become aggression?
-
sethsimmons
Can everybody just take a step back.
-
sethsimmons
No need for the aggression from either of you
-
sethsimmons
Lets just come back to this later, or move it to a meta issue
-
needmoney90
libertarians, amirite
-
sethsimmons
:P
-
rottensox
ugh.
-
dsc_
so wait whats the possible issue of having a LLC to pay for server stuff?
-
rehrar
selsta: I was not paid when I started Monero Marketing
-
rehrar
I was not paid when sgp and I transitioned it to Monero Community
-
needmoney90
dsc_: an LLC makes an entity that's persistent and can make payments/organize stuff with other legal entities on a continuous basis, even if members drop in and out.
-
selsta
rehrar: oki
-
needmoney90
Oh, issues with an LLC?
-
needmoney90
idk. It's not libertarian enough for them I guess.
-
selsta
rehrar: did you read the backlog?
-
dsc_
yeah, what are the possible problems that can come from having a LLC? I don't understand what geonic is saying, or I'm not reading correctly - not sure
-
needmoney90
We should be paying out of pocket and changing who pays for stuff every month
-
rehrar
going through it yeah
-
needmoney90
because LLCs big bad
-
needmoney90
how dare we not encapsulate the libertarian spirit
-
sethsimmons
I don't have a specific issue with the LLC
-
sethsimmons
It was juts a more drastic jump than I expected
-
sethsimmons
There are many opinions happening in here :)
-
needmoney90
its the least drastic way of getting a consistent entity for payments
-
sethsimmons
I have no background to know if/when an LLC is needed so can't comment at all
-
needmoney90
without tying an individual to it of course
-
sethsimmons
<needmoney90 "its the least drastic way of get"> sounds great then.
-
needmoney90
we're pretty over paying for stuff out of pocket/dealing with it on taxes
-
needmoney90
its just a major hassle that can be alleviated if we make an entity as the face
-
cassact[m]1
IIRC By default LLCs are governed by owners who have total control over assests
-
dsc_
surely someone must *own* the server
-
rehrar
ok, caught up
-
dEBRUYNE
needmoney90: I presume the latter part is the most hassle, due to short and long-term cap gains?
-
needmoney90
yes.
-
rehrar
cassact[m]1: true, but in this case the biggest asset is arguably the IRC chat, and it's owned de-facto by core because of the #monero- in the name
-
dsc_
the way I see it, having a LLC does not impact decentralization? Like, person A can host service A, person B can host service B - both paid for via LLC, or whatever
-
needmoney90
The paying out of pocket isnt as much of a problem as sourcing info on where it came from, selling, cap gains, etc
-
rehrar
really, sgp_ is trying to deploy more things, that will be useful, in a way that is easy to do on taxes
-
rehrar
deploy a Jitsi, a sandstorm, why not a Matrix server? What about Chatwoot? Why not this or that? Big possibilities here.
-
rehrar
CCS makes it easier to collect money, but not to declare money.
-
rehrar
I think this is an important distinction.
-
sethsimmons
if an LLC is a helpful thing along the way go for it.
-
sethsimmons
*then
-
needmoney90
but its not libertarian! Its centralized, and therefore bad
-
dsc_
I'm also interested in geonic / ErCiccione's opinion though, probably best to create a meta issue
-
needmoney90
sorry. I'm not helping.
-
cassact[m]1
<rehrar "cassact: true, but in this case "> Yeah, and even then you could easily add structure to the LLC that makes it transparent and community run. LLCs are super flexible. Just wanted to point out where a gut dislike might be coming from
-
sethsimmons
Idk I don't have a big issue with things, I just didn't even know there was a board at all so I was caught off guard :P
-
sethsimmons
Yeah the sarcasm isn't super helpful to constructive discussions :/
-
geonic
needmoney90 that's so aggressive..
-
rehrar
sethsimmons: this is probably true of many people
-
geonic
;)
-
needmoney90
the 'board' was an overnight thing in the past two days because rehrar sgp and I were fed up with a lot of stuff
-
rehrar
I'll be blunt and say that people take for granted that things go along relatively smoothly
-
needmoney90
like payments
-
rehrar
they think it just happens
-
rehrar
decentralization has scaled moderately well so far
-
needmoney90
we were squabbling about who pays what and decided that, you knjow, this is exactly why incorporated entities exist
-
needmoney90
to aggregate the needs of many
-
luigi1111w
seems more confusion in the name than anything. If you just want to pay for services, use a narrow name, if you want to absorb other things, use additional justification beyond paying for services.
-
rehrar
Monero Pay For Stuff LLC
-
geonic
yep
-
sethsimmons
well said luigi
-
rehrar
ok, difficult question here then
-
rehrar
should sgp_ needmoney90 and I leave Monero Community workgroup into other hands and start a new thing? More or less functionally the same except for the channel here.
-
needmoney90
I would be fine letting whoever wants to take over all my responsibility take it
-
needmoney90
please
-
needmoney90
please please
-
rehrar
we can fine tune and discuss further
-
needmoney90
starting bid is 0xmr
-
geonic
outline those responsibilities and publish them somewhere
-
needmoney90
lol
-
needmoney90
as if thats possible
-
needmoney90
its so ad-hoc
-
rehrar
so far an incomplete list
-
needmoney90
People constantly push back on formalization :D
-
geonic
"lol! I'm indispensable" :)
-
needmoney90
why are you being so stuck up geonic
-
needmoney90
seriously
-
rehrar
let's start with getting a volunteer to run this next meeting :)
-
sethsimmons
He's... a bit difficult lol
-
sethsimmons
Anyways
-
needmoney90
no shit seth.
-
sethsimmons
No, I think y'all are doing a good job and should keep running this.
-
needmoney90
I'm pretty over getting shit for nothing
-
sethsimmons
More transparency over what responsibilities need to be delegated will be great, and give people a clear way to get into the community.
-
needmoney90
I might just peace out for a month
-
sethsimmons
Pls dont :(
-
sethsimmons
You do great work around here dude
-
needmoney90
with people bitching constantly at me, it doesn't feel like it.
-
Inge-
+1
-
sethsimmons
Although if you need the time off seriously then take it.
-
sethsimmons
But I appreciate all you're doing SO MUCH.
-
rehrar
dEBRUYNE: said something last time we discussed the CoC that has stuck with me. The Monero Community workgroup may have started out as one thing (my idea to expand beyond devs), but it has turned into something more. The most accessible workgroup for Monero.
-
sethsimmons
You hold a hard role, and don't even get paid for it (somehow)
-
rehrar
In this case, I can see how it may be sacred ground to some, and not just the plaything of a few individuals anymore.
-
rehrar
hence the suggestion to release it to be that sacred ground and do something else
-
rehrar
the community can even vote to have the new LLC manage the new meeting, in the sacred ground, but at that point we're being pedantic and it gets silly. :P
-
sethsimmons
That wouldn't do any good, IMO, as like you've said you three are the "glue" at this point making things stick together for MCW
-
sethsimmons
That should continue IMO
-
needmoney90
Apparently people dont actually think that.
-
geonic
rehrar I thought the issue that the LLC was solving was payments, not running community meetings? why is this on the table now?
-
rehrar
I literally said that we can release the community workgroup things, like meetings, back to you all or a volunteer who wants to do them.
-
geonic
needmoney90 if you need to take a break, I encourage you to do it.
-
dsc_
geonic: cmon :P
-
needmoney90
stop being an ass geonic
-
geonic
?????
-
rehrar
I also literally said that in this IRC channel, things don't really matter in terms of LLC ownership because it's all de facto owned by core
-
geonic
you said it and now I'm being an ass? can you stop with the name calling? aggressive, stuck up, an ass
-
needmoney90
yes. You are being.
-
xmrscott[m]
<dsc_ "the way I see it, having a LLC d"> Yes, this is precisely how I see it. I really don't know why things are blowing up out of nowhere.
-
geonic
I'd prefer it if you stopped with the insults
-
sethsimmons
geonic: there's literally no reason for being so disrespectful/aggressive
-
kinghat[m]
all of core would have names attached to the LLC?
-
sethsimmons
Give the man a break and have a real convo.
-
selsta
kinghat[m]: no
-
selsta
core is not involved with this
-
xmrscott[m]
Certain things I don't quite understand, core can't exactly own #monero-community precisely because they're not the actual freenode operators TMK
-
rehrar
kinghat[m]: no. None of them.
-
needmoney90
freenode has granted core control over all #monero- rooms.
-
needmoney90
If core asks, they will take over.
-
needmoney90
#xmr- is not covered, only #monero-
-
needmoney90
So core has been granted control through freenode's operators
-
luigi1111w
IDK if "control" constitutes "ownership"
-
kinghat[m]
i dont see how anyone can stop ppl from forming an LLC 🤷♂️
-
rehrar
ok, core controls then
-
luigi1111w
in case of a dispute, yeah
-
luigi1111w
so far, effectively no
-
rehrar
they can't, but they can get mad about it
-
cassact[m]1
I actually don’t have a clear understanding of the governance/structure of core. I tried looking for bylaws/voting structures/whatever, but I was unable to find anything after about 20 minutes of looking
-
rehrar
cassact[m]1: you don't want to know just how deep the informality goes
-
cassact[m]1
Oh Noez lol
-
sethsimmons
lol
-
cassact[m]1
I’m a huge legal nerd, so this stuff is really interesting to me.
-
xmrscott[m]
Yeah, I'm just curious as a curious person how an LLC could technically list an IRC channel of an IRC network they don't admin as a controlled asset, but I'm not really a legal buff
-
kinghat[m]
i think some skepticism is warranted, even w/o evidence of wrongdoing in crypto. turns out its flooded with it. not really surprising to me.
-
rehrar
ok, what exactly are people uncomfortable about in regards to the LLC? That it will be given the responsibilities that were previously held by the community workgroup?
-
rehrar
Can we explicitly name the things we are concerned about?
-
rehrar
Are we concerned about the meetings?
-
rehrar
Are we concerned about the channel?
-
rehrar
It can't be the jitsi since none of you use it and it's so new. :P
-
rehrar
Are we concerned about the coffee chat?
-
geonic
strict vs fluid structure
-
» xmrscott[m] notes he's not really concerned about anything, just to be clear :) He also believes nm90 should take a sabbatical if he wants. rehrar was out for a week-ish, moved, etc, sgp is out for a weekend. People have things outside Monero they recharge with
-
sgp_
catching up now
-
sethsimmons
I have no real issue, as long as the closed board doesn't become an issue in the future.
-
geonic
I think the more appropriate place to start is, what problem is the LLC trying to solve? if it's about payments, set up a general monero payments LLC and use that. I see no reason the workgroup needs to have a legal entity sitting above it.
-
sethsimmons
But it's probably the best solution to codify some things and make sure shit actually gets delegated/assigned/completed properly without handholding
-
sethsimmons
Commitys are a good approach to delegating work, and I look forward to seeing where I can help out.
-
sethsimmons
s/Commitys/committees
-
monerobux
sethsimmons meant to say: committees are a good approach to delegating work, and I look forward to seeing where I can help out.
-
rehrar
geonic: it can't just be a general monero payments LLC can it? So moving money around for anyone who needs help with Monero payments? That would be very suspicious in terms of money laundering. :P That money needs to be defined in what it's used for and who is in charge of it.
-
rehrar
general money movement LLC would be a money transmitter of sorts and need an appropriate money transmitter license
-
geonic
yep. how do you plan on avoiding this in the structure you're proposing?
-
rehrar
by having assets defined as for purposes of this workgroup. Not just anyone will be able to send, receive, and make payment stuff from this LLC, and it won't be done on behalf of others.
-
kinghat[m]
i dont think the community knew that people(?) were being paid outside of the CCS? is this related? i dont care, i just didnt know. <--not referring to hosting and the like.
-
rehrar
kinghat[m]: person
-
rehrar
as far as I know I'm th eonly one.
-
rehrar
*the only
-
rehrar
luigi1111w: plz confirm
-
kinghat[m]
got ya
-
sgp_
okay, I'm mostly caught up
-
geonic
can you give us a ballpark idea of what those monthly costs are, that necessitate building out a bureaucracy around them? if I recall the CCS amounts, they weren't staggering
-
sgp_
first I want to say that even though a lot of these comments are heated, it's great news that people care so much
-
sgp_
people don't give a f in other shitcoin communities
-
luigi1111w
I can only confirm that core doesn't pay anyone else. Other entities probably do.
-
Inge-
wen moon?
-
rottensox
are you implying monero is a shitcoin now?
-
sgp_
rottensox: always was :p
-
luigi1111w
just state it outright
-
sgp_
but it's OUR shitcoin <3
-
Inge-
Once everything has been said, it would probably be a good idea to take a nights sleep break before jumping to conclusions.
-
kinghat[m]
🤗
-
sgp_
I do think that there are huge misconceptions about what is actually being done here and why
-
sethsimmons
TIL Monero is shitcoin :'(
-
rehrar
deja vu
-
sgp_
geonic: rCryptoCurrency LLC was used for simpler accounting for Monero Means Money. Was that painful?
-
xmrscott[m]
#doomero
-
sgp_
you were a huge contributor to that
-
sgp_
and we needed an entity to talk to all the services that list movies and the like
-
sgp_
somewhere credible for the theaters to send invoices
-
sgp_
an entity to onboard to accept payments
-
cassact[m]1
Ooooh that’s interesting sgp_
-
kinghat[m]
SOMEONES GOING TO NEED TO TALK TO THE COPS!
-
sgp_
entities are often evil, sure. but this is an entity run by the same people who already lead this workgroup. the leadership and trust isn't changing
-
kinghat[m]
😁
-
sgp_
this workgroup started from something that has 22 upvotes and 7 comments on Reddit
-
kinghat[m]
ya but they all start out good.. absolutely..
-
sgp_
we now have 146 people here alone, not counting bridges
-
sgp_
well, counting bridges but not the people using them :p
-
midipoet
Kind of questions the size of the proposed board then
-
midipoet
but anyways....
-
geonic
the point of contention is if the legal entity and the workgroup will be one and the same. if they are different and distinct, go for it. if you're putting a legal structure over an existing workgroup, you'd have to get buy-in from all of your members.
-
sgp_
midipoet: the whole point is for us to write some stuff down, find a way to get stable services going, and then find ways to grow
-
rehrar
I really would like to come back to the question of what exactly is being threatened here? The IRC channel is controlled by core. Meetings can be done by anyone. Heck, any stuff we deploy is going to be FOSS, and if the community doesn't like it or our leadership they can deploy their own stuff (because it's FOSS) and move onto there.
-
geonic
or at least a majority of them
-
cassact[m]1
I’m bridging in from matrix woo
-
rehrar
And the IRC channel can be taken from us by core and given to others so....
-
midipoet
sgp_: sure, I understand the sentiment. I just questioned the name, the absorption of assets, the self appointment of the board, and the no line of redress for the community.
-
rehrar
cassact[m]1: their change from Riot to Element was by and large a lateral move
-
sgp_
midipoet: fwiw we haven't done anything and this is a draft
-
geonic
well, you did form an unelected board 2 days ago :)
-
sgp_
however it is clear to us, who have handled the administration for the past several years, that we need to make some simple changes to grow
-
kinghat[m]
can the board be voted on by the community like the CCS is voted on?
-
rehrar
midipoet: but as I just showed, there is no assets to absorb. :P
-
sgp_
and this will better allow people to join
-
cassact[m]1
<rehrar "cassact: their change from Riot "> And a dumb one too. I heard whispers it was cuz of Riot Games, but only whispers
-
rehrar
kinghat[m]: is the current de facto leadership voted on?
-
rehrar
cassact[m]1: Element has so many facepalmy UX issues.
-
midipoet
rehrar: to be honest I don't have the link to the proposal anymore, and forget the composition of the assets being absorbed. I remember it being quite long
-
sgp_
we only started referring to us 3 as the "board" 3 days ago, though the three of us were the leaders for a while
-
xmrscott[m]
freenode_cassact[m]: Well it was quite literally cited on their blog post circa mid July
-
geonic
I'm not sure how an LLC is easier to join than a decentralized, permissionless workgroup?
-
sgp_
-
sgp_
geonic: it's not a decentralized, permissionless workgroup
-
rehrar
geonic: it's not the workgroup that would be hard to get into, but the leadership of it
-
sgp_
workgroups are not decentralized and permissionless
-
rehrar
and it's currently no different now
-
kinghat[m]
no but its also not a legal entity trying to represent monero.
-
rehrar
you can't just come in and say you want to be a part of the leadership of this workgroup and get in
-
sgp_
kinghat[m]: "no but its also not a legal entity trying to represent monero." <- NO, we are not trying to represent Monero
-
geonic
OK, let me rephrase. how would an LLC structure attract more contributors?
-
cassact[m]1
<rehrar "you can't just come in and say y"> That’s how it works ina lot of community orgs I’m a part of tbh
-
rehrar
geonic: I can answer that actually
-
sgp_
geonic: we can organize tasks easier into committees using reliable tools we can pay for
-
xmrscott[m]
I'm guessing you'd be able to do things like OpenCollective, etc more easily
-
rehrar
it allows us easier accounting, which means more likely to deploy new things, such as Jitsi, Mastadon, etc. etc.
-
sgp_
xmrscott[m]: also yes, easier to raise money
-
kinghat[m]
fwiw i dont really care but i think there needs to be a healthy devils advocate for things this precious 😘
-
rehrar
and these new platforms can touch on communities that are already on those platforms
-
rehrar
and they can discover Monero
-
cassact[m]1
<geonic "OK, let me rephrase. how would a"> Clear pipeline, official structure, easier entry points, easier delegation
-
rehrar
basically, it allows for expansion of platforms by having clear pathways for the finances. More platforms means more participation. Not everyone likes IRC. Not everyone likes Reddit.
-
geonic
why don't you form an LLC that is independent of the workgroup and helps the workgroup on an informal basis?
-
midipoet
The more I read the proposal the less I like it!
-
rehrar
geonic: we could, but it would literally just be playing with definitions
-
sethsimmons
I'm going to have to hop off for a bit but will try and catch up/respond later.
-
midipoet
There are quite a few assets
-
rehrar
if the same people are running the LLC and the workgroup
-
rehrar
and they 'help' each other
-
rehrar
then it's literally no different, but pretending that it is
-
sgp_
midipoet: notice how many times my name is listed. I need to delegate to others for my sanity
-
geonic
you can easily decentralize who's running the workgroup. that seems to be part of the issue here, as you three are being burdened with too many responsibilities
-
cassact[m]1
<rehrar "then it's literally no different"> It’s worse imo
-
rehrar
midipoet: which ones in particular are you worried about?
-
sgp_
geonic: this is our way of simplifying the delegation process
-
sgp_
you may do it differently, but this doesn't seem like the "wrong" way in our opinion
-
midipoet
sgp_: nobody doubts the work that some (you included) do for Monero. I think people (myself included) always enjoyed the fact that it wasn't formalised.
-
sgp_
midipoet: I've hated doing informal work lmao
-
sgp_
it just meant that it was hard for me to ask for help
-
cassact[m]1
<geonic "you can easily decentralize who'"> You can easily decentralize a formal structure.
-
midipoet
but I suppose the goal is integration into the system.
-
midipoet
But I do want to say now, that I really don't like the threats to quit that seem to be becoming commonplace. On the whole I think it's extremely unhelpful.
-
kinghat[m]
even if it makes perfect sense to establish an LLC for this, IMO it doesnt really fit the ethos or narrative that something like monero represents.
-
rehrar
Group: "You will do it in a way that you hate." person: "er, I'd rather leave." Group: "That's not helpful. Don't make threats."
-
sgp_
midipoet: that's fair, but from the other perspective there's also not much else we can say to get the point across. We need people who volunteer to do specific things
-
sgp_
somewhere closer to the middle is appropriate
-
midipoet
sgp_: the whole idea of decentralisation is not a board delegating. It should be a bottom approach. Perhaps the reason few people get involved and stay involved is due to the perceived it actual hierarchy that might exist.
-
kinghat[m]
if we dont get a pump out of this im going to be pissed
-
rottensox
lol.
-
cassact[m]1
<kinghat[m] "even if it makes perfect sense t"> That’s a fair point. Speaking for myself I’m a big fan of co-ops
-
sgp_
midipoet: perhaps, but I'm going to instead bet on the fact that we just don't have supporting infrastructure
-
midipoet
rehrar: thats not how it goes, and you know it
-
sgp_
midipoet: sometimes it feels like that
-
needmoney90
it does.
-
rehrar
that's literally what you said
-
geonic
it seems like years of unpaid work are being rewarded by appointment to an unelected board that will manage the efforts and contributions of a large and growing community. with no line of redress by said community, like midipoet said.
-
rehrar
people expressed a desire to not continue working the way things are and to change the status quo
-
rehrar
they said they might even be impacted on continuing to work if the status quo doesn't change
-
rehrar
you said this is unhelpful
-
rehrar
in the context of everyone fighting to keep the status quo
-
midipoet
rehrar: again, that's not true.
-
cassact[m]1
<midipoet "sgp_: the whole idea of decentra"> Again speaking for myself, I don’t get much involved because there does not seem to be a clear place for me to apply my primary skill set (accounting, lobbying, etc)
-
midipoet
the threats to quit are used as leverage to gain a better negotiating position
-
needmoney90
(we need that)
-
rehrar
cassact[m]1: be my accountant
-
sgp_
cassact[m]1: you're an accountant? Get ready for 1m tasks now :p
-
sgp_
also lobbying wow
-
needmoney90
we were literally discussing lobbying potential the other day
-
needmoney90
and concluded that we dont have any lobbyists
-
sgp_
"I don't know how to help with these super in-demand things" :p
-
sgp_
making a joke, not making fun of you :)
-
sgp_
but yeah, there are so many things we should be organizing here
-
kinghat[m]
-
midipoet
sgp_: you could have raised this issue in a meeting. Perhaps you have, but I have seen it. Even an issue in meta?
-
cassact[m]1
Right see this is perfect, I didn’t know there was a need for these things lol
-
rehrar
why are people so obsessed with talking about things on github?>
-
rehrar
?
-
xmrscott[m]
Worth noting that threats to quit don't really IMO result in a better neogotiating position
-
sgp_
midipoet: as far as I see it, it was better to introduce it here in chat before making a formal announcement elsewhere
-
xmrscott[m]
Anyone can create a LLC right now called Monero Core LLC w/o any inputs
-
sgp_
y'all would have complained regardless :p
-
needmoney90
^
-
midipoet
rehrar: GitHub issues have slower refresh rate, meaning responses can be more considered.
-
rehrar
so do regular forums. We should move to one of those. And it's not github which isn't meant for that
-
sgp_
almost like we should have a Flarum
-
rehrar
and when I tried to launch a forum people said that it would further fracture the community
-
rehrar
sgp_: LOL
-
sgp_
who could support that I wonder
-
geonic
anyone who wants to quit, you can hand your resignation letters to me. I'll accept them :) just putting it out there
-
rehrar
geonic: and you'll take over responsibilities
-
geonic
lol
-
geonic
:)
-
rehrar
lol
-
rehrar
:(
-
midipoet
sgp_: you made a formal announcement in chat did you not? You even pre announced it a few days ago.
-
sgp_
I also agree with xmrscott[m] it's not useful to trade these things back and forth
-
sethsimmons
<geonic "anyone who wants to quit, you ca"> Dude... Just stop it already, you’re just trolling and being incredibly unhelpful.
-
sgp_
midipoet: we still also need to make wider announcements
-
geonic
sethsimmons it's OK, you don't have to be the knight in shining armor. just calling people's bluff.
-
rehrar
I can't quit. Core has dirt on me. :(
-
rehrar
"You work for a drug coin!!"
-
sgp_
lmao
-
needmoney90
its true
-
midipoet
rehrar: adding an additional platform is a valid concern. GitHub is not an additional platform, it's an existing one, where there is precedent for discussions being had.
-
xmrscott[m]
Got 'em
-
rehrar
midipoet: goodness gracious, bro. It's like arguing that you should use a hammer to screw in a screw rather than buying a screwdriver, a tool that was designed for screwing in screws.
-
sgp_
midipoet: I can share on meta if people really want, but it will be more of an announcement when it happens
-
xmrscott[m]
It's worth highlighting again, any LLC would not hold ownership of critical infrastructure. Core owns moderation of #monero-* on freenode, core owns the monero repositories, getmonero.org
-
sgp_
I get that people are skeptical, but I advise people to trust us
-
rehrar
xmrscott[m]: I have tried explaining this thrice
-
midipoet
xmrscott[m]: the threats to quite ends the discussion, or changes it to one that has no middle ground, which is helpful for the person making the threat to quit.
-
needmoney90
I also think people should trust me
-
needmoney90
I trust me
-
needmoney90
its easy
-
sgp_
you've trusted us so far
-
needmoney90
'tolerated' more like 👀
-
dsc_
i trust nm90 except for his taste in music
-
dsc_
true story
-
sgp_
often times with disagreements
-
sgp_
dsc_: lol
-
midipoet
rehrar: my point was about an additional platform, not about the tool
-
rehrar
dsc_: mood
-
dsc_
<3
-
sgp_
midipoet: we'll do our best to get the word out there for the benefit of the community
-
xmrscott[m]
midipoet: My point is that the three individuals could just up and create it w/o dealing w/ the drama on IRC and then go about creating a Flarum based community, etc
-
midipoet
sgp_: my point is not about where you made the announcement, it's more of when have you mentioned or discussed that the workload was too much/burdensome and you needed help
-
sgp_
though the takeaway should be that we are growing and opening up new avenues to support this growth as a result
-
xmrscott[m]
They have instead opted to create a RFC draft of the LLC, kinda
-
sgp_
midipoet: I actually talked about this a lot here:
youtube.com/watch?v=MjNXmJUk2Jo
-
monerobux
[ Justin Ehrenhofer - Improving Monero Release Schedule - DEF CON 27 Monero Village - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
-
sgp_
though the focus was on the release schedule
-
sgp_
the message was the same
-
geonic
giving a talk on the subject is not the same as raising it in a meeting or on Reddit, where it can actually be solved
-
sgp_
we need to feel okay with some structure
-
geonic
if you have trouble recruiting candidates into the leadership fold, create a vacuum and see what happens
-
sgp_
and this isn't Monero itself, but a side group of people who care too much for their own good
-
sgp_
geonic: no
-
midipoet
sgp_: ok, so if you think you have discussed the burden issue with the community enough before this announcement, so be it. I didn't feel it was that way, but perhaps I was oblivious.
-
needmoney90
-
rehrar
...perhaps we should split the difference and leave Monero Community as is. Make the LLC a different thing entirely. Deploy infrastructure through the LLC that the community workgroup can use as it pleases. That way we can play security theater and people can be happy.
-
geonic
sgp_ ?
-
dsc_
nm90 <3
-
geonic
rehrar thank you
-
rehrar
it would literally and practically be the same thing, but people will like the definitions so we gucci
-
sgp_
geonic: suggesting a vacuum is prudent is... insane
-
needmoney90
but its so libertarian!
-
needmoney90
Think of how libertarian it is, isn't that something worth shooting for?
-
cassact[m]1
<rehrar "...perhaps we should split the d"> That can get messy legally
-
sgp_
no, I will argue that people need to get used it. it's the same leadership, ideals, etc
-
midipoet
Stfu with the libertarian shit.
-
sgp_
there's no actual difference
-
geonic
is libertarian an insult now? your tone isn't coming across on IRC
-
rehrar
sgp_: I was mostly being sarcastic
-
rehrar
because it's literally the same thing
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sgp_
didn't come across lol
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rehrar
it'd be different if we left the -community workgroup in someone's hands
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rehrar
but nobody has stepped up
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rehrar
tons of opinions and nobody wanting to do anything
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sgp_
the three of us will talk about the feedback we received and will make sensible adjustments
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geonic
oh my. when the only sensible compromise from the three of you is sarcastic we've got issues. the other alternative is quitting altogether, of course.
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sgp_
however the three of us will pursue additional infrastructure for the community
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geonic
rehrar in the 30 minutes since you've made the offer, sure
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rehrar
I'll be blunt. Go make your own workgroup. Structure it how you like. :)
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sgp_
people don't need to use it
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xmrscott[m]
<rehrar "but nobody has stepped up"> Has there been a call for example, heading weekly -community meetings that has gone unanswered?
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sgp_
but we need these tools provided by someone if we want to grow
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xmrscott[m]
If there has, I've sadly missed it
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sgp_
xmrscott[m]: there definitely will be in the future
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geonic
rehrar we've joined this workgroup because of its current structure. you're proposing to change the structure. we're discussing it.
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geonic
if your proposal to quit and leave the workgroup to be managed by someone else is serious, discuss it internally among the other two board members and present it at a community meeting. you might be surprised by the response.
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geonic
but I'm pretty sure that's another joke of yours
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rehrar
I myself never threatened to quit. ;)
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geonic
ho-ho-ho
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xmrscott[m]
He has dirt on 'em, after all
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rehrar
Dealing with the horrendously frustrating portions of Monero is one thing I'm paid for.
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geonic
I don't begrudge anyone their salary. get that money
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rehrar
One of the reasons I stuck with Kovri and nobody else did.
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rehrar
And I don't begrudge anyone their opinion.
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rehrar
But I'm fine being sarcastic too. ^__^
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sgp_
okay, looks like this conversation isn't really productive anymore
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sgp_
I also need to duck out for a while
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midipoet
rehrar: your example isn't the same thing. There is a transfer of assets into an LLC (I assume officially in some manner), a self appointed board, no line of redress by the community formalised, and I assume shares in that LLC held by someone/something somewhere? (TBC)
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sgp_
the shares aren't worth anything since there are no assets
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sgp_
and we aren't hiring people; the volunteers will keep rights to all the work that they do
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sgp_
we aren't having people sign NDAs haha
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midipoet
Practically speaking it is a lawful transfer of assets into a single entity.
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needmoney90
what assets
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rehrar
THE JITSI!!1!11
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needmoney90
there aren't any assets
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sgp_
if anything it's only assets that nm, rehrar, and I have rights to transfer
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midipoet
A social media account is not an asset?
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sgp_
yeah, @xmrcommunity is my right to transfer
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sgp_
same with Monero YT, etc
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sgp_
*MoneroCommunityWorkgroup YT
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midipoet
yes. I understand that someone owns/controls them now
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midipoet
In the scenario, the LLC owns them, correct?
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sgp_
there will actually be more oversight over these now
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needmoney90
it will turn accounts owned by one person into accounts owned by multiple, that need to agree.
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xmrscott[m]
This is useful for example, when the creator dies in a freak boating accident
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midipoet
And what if the shareholders wish to sell their shares?
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needmoney90
only our coins get lost in boating accidents
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needmoney90
not our lives
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sgp_
midipoet: we can say that they can't
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sgp_
tons of options
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midipoet
Who is we?
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sgp_
LLC is hella flexible
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sgp_
bylaws
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midipoet
Understood.
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sgp_
we're open to suggestions on how to best outline these, absolutely
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sgp_
companies can have various restrictions
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cassact[m]1
I’d love to help with that
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cassact[m]1
I write bylaws for fun :p
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needmoney90
I....don't
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sgp_
lmao
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needmoney90
we would love assistance
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sgp_
yes absolutely
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midipoet
As I said, I think it should be a cooperative. Or at least a number of smaller LLCs geographically distributed, with shares distributed to the community.
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sgp_
will hit you up after Defcon. Nothing will happen before then
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rehrar
ick!
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rehrar
all this time spent on this. I have to go back and work on defcon things.
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needmoney90
oh, question, does anyone have a couple bucks worth of zcash that I can have?
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needmoney90
I'm making a puzzle for defcon
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needmoney90
and I'm not a dirty turncoat
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sgp_
midipoet: I'm okay penciling that in as a long-term goal, but acting as a cooperative takes expertise I don't have
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cassact[m]1
An LLC can be a cooperative.
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sgp_
yeah, why I tried to use the "acting as" language
-
sgp_
and bylaws can be changed
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needmoney90
(with a majority vote)
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needmoney90
(or supermajority if thats the previously set bar)
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sgp_
nah, with supreme Justin vote
-
asymptotically
needmoney90: ooo is it gonna be like the ctf?
-
needmoney90
asymptotically yes :)
-
sgp_
(obviously /s)
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luigi1111w
<needmoney90> oh, question, does anyone have a couple bucks worth of zcash that I can have? <= nice try, IRS
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needmoney90
The plan is to have a few tracing puzzles
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needmoney90
where you have to identify the output tx
-
needmoney90
for various chains (wasabi, monero EABE, and zcash)
-
needmoney90
But I have no zcash to make a tx :p
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sgp_
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sgp_
okay I for real need to bounce now, peace
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rehrar
bai
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dsc_
y u link docx
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dsc_
r u spreading macros
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Inge-
needmoney90: I'm sure zooko will source you some
-
needmoney90
After he called my community a cult to my face, I'm not too interested
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xmrscott[m]
needmoney90: Is there a service to convert XMR to ZEC that doesn't involve KYC?
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cassact[m]1
Oh cool I’ve always wanted to join a cult
-
xmrscott[m]
If so give me a link and a z/t-addr and I'll dirty my hands
-
needmoney90
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Inge-
xmrscott[m]: binance? tradeogre?
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xmrscott[m]
Alright, give me like, 3.2 hours; dealing w/ shipping issues w/ a vendor. Will still need an addr to send to
-
xmrscott[m]
Perfect way to test out Firefox Relay
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needmoney90
ill get one set up in a bit
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needmoney90
Oh interesting - Are you guys aware that the zcash light wallet defaults to displaying your zaddress?
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needmoney90
It takes an extra click to get the taddress
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needmoney90
That makes me happy
-
needmoney90
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needmoney90
xmrscott: t1YSMT1y3U6QsHB242ffkyRL8ki8JmtDShP
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needmoney90
I would give the zaddress, but it kinda has to start in a taddress for puzzle purposes
-
dsc_
nice puzzle though
-
needmoney90
:)
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needmoney90
I'll have a few puzzles of different difficulties for each coin, obv
-
dsc_
yeah
-
needmoney90
And before anyone accuses me of doing this to make fun of other coins, I'm also including monero attacks :p
-
needmoney90
we don't get a free pass just because we're the best around
-
asymptotically
petition to change eve->alice->bob->eve to nm90->asymptotically
-
Inge-
I can already envision the crypto-media headlines: "Moneros untraceability broken at defcon"
-
needmoney90
we literally have a show called Breaking Monero
-
needmoney90
that talks about all the stuff that breaks us
-
needmoney90
we were doing that well before defcon :D
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sarang
-
monerobux
[REDDIT] Add to your calendar Monero (XMR) event: CLSAG Live on Mainnet - October 31, 2020 (
kryptocal.com/event/54073/clsag-live-on-mainnet) to r/Monero | 14 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by cryptocalbot | Created at 2020-08-04 - 13:00:43
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sarang
That didn't change from October 17, right?
-
sarang
I mean, CLSAG _will_ still be live on October 31, so it's technically correct =p
-
sarang
(the best kind of correct)
-
xmrscott[m]
badbot
-
Inge-
I know, I know. Cryptomedia is what cryptomedia does though.
