06:18:28 quick question. why are tweets going out when the Atomic Swap paper hasn't even been fully vetted by MRL (Sarang)? 06:20:35 talking about the official @monero twitter account. he would be the first person I'd ask before announcing something like that. or are we doing pre-announcements now? 06:21:35 geonic: we want to invite others to review it and comment on it, surely? 06:22:18 the Twitter account Tweets lots of ecosystem stuff, including announcements 06:25:27 if that was the intention of the tweet then it certainly doesn't convey it. it flat out says "successful completion of research" when even our very own research lab hasn't given it its blessing 06:41:18 geonic: It is a new bull market. Preannouncements are practically required. Next week we start pre-announcing preannouncements. 06:41:32 * Inge- takes out the duster and dusts off the Monero Enterprise Alliance 06:43:02 geonic: the CCS proposal was successfully completed, I'm pretty sure that's all it was meant to convey 06:43:13 I don't think "blessed by the MRL" is a criteria for research on Monero 07:15:25 geonic: the CCS proposal was successfully completed, that's the intention of my post on Reddit at least. 07:16:41 I hope one day receiving MRL's blessing! 07:23:31 h4sh3d[m]: all clear on that and am super grateful for your work, as is everyone else. asking about twitter here. hopefully the author of the tweet can chime in. :) 07:24:26 the author of the Tweet is anonymous, all Tweets use a ring signature 07:24:29 :-P 07:24:58 ;D 07:27:22 seriously, though, knowing who has access to the Twitter account is a security risk 07:27:39 they can then be targeted with spear-phishing attacks, or wrench attacks 07:27:42 so I doubt the author will chime in 07:27:58 we know who has access to the twitter account, fluffy 07:28:00 it's not a secret 07:28:18 (and it wasn't me, before anyone thinks that it was) 07:28:45 fluffypony! 07:28:48 when fluffypony joe rogan? 07:28:52 :D 07:29:19 geonic: I doubt so, we totally changed the access list during the recent Twitter attack 07:29:24 i can see it in my mind, tell the audience you got to the US by boat 07:29:28 like as it was happening 07:29:30 just in case 07:29:35 kayront: LOL 07:30:11 hehe 07:30:24 man, you're a character. in the nicest possible sense 07:30:26 <3 07:32:33 bonus points if you'd pull an elon and get ultrabaked in the show 07:32:38 ****, I'd pay for that episode 07:34:20 What's with these CCS proposals asking to be funded for 6 months? some folks are even asking 37k O_O 07:38:41 adoption 07:46:42 I'd be more worried if one of the devs with merge access got phished than whoever runs the Twitter account. and that information is public, so the "it's for your own security" argument doesn't hold water for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 07:47:25 we also know that what happened on Twitter was not due to any individual user getting phished, but a Twitter admin. 07:50:33 anyway... I rest my case. the tweet was in bad taste. "we", meaning Monero, should not be "happy to announce" any research until the research lab has taken a look at it. It was even mentioned by name in the tweet, so it's easy to see how it could be interpreted as having that seal of approval. 07:57:38 we didn't know at the time 07:58:18 so our reaction was to dump the ACL off a cliff and then change up who has access 07:58:19 it became apparent a few hours in that it wasn't spearphishing against account holders 10:16:11 -xmr-pr- [css-proposals] Avis opened pull request #160: Norwegian translation of User guides & Moneropedia 10:16:12 -xmr-pr- > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/160 12:32:34 ErCiccione, the press kit is all creative commons, right? https://web.getmonero.org/press-kit/ 12:32:37 i can't se eit on there 13:09:18 geonic: I am not the gatekeeper for research 13:09:25 Nor should be 13:09:55 Yeah I really see no reason that there has to be MRL approval before sharing of any Monero-related research 13:10:02 Especially when h4shed has been working off and on with the MRL throughout the process 13:10:13 How research is presented by different channels (like Twitter accounts) is up to those channels 13:10:21 It's exciting research that has been completed per the CCS, and should be shared as such. 13:10:55 That doesn't negate that it's great if sarang et al review and contribute more feedback moving forward, but this is just the research phase, and I'm sure lots more will be shared/learned as it moves towards a working implementation. 13:10:56 I love that research is being done by a broader set of people 13:11:23 Sign of a healthy ecosystem 13:12:04 Absolutely, GREAT to see the growth in interest around research by people outside of MRL. 13:13:54 Swaps are tricky in their risks, and I want to be sure I fully understand how they apply to this construction 13:15:02 I wonder how long it takes to sync 16.0.1 from scratch 13:15:09 will soon know... 13:15:25 Whats your HW? 13:16:16 Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-8559U CPU @ 2.70GHz 13:16:56 What disk? 13:17:35 sethsimmons: you make a good point that research does not guarantee implementation 13:17:55 Plenty of research does not result in code, and that doesn't mean it isn't useful or important 13:18:09 samsung sata SSD 13:18:29 sethsimmons: it is a little unfair since now at the start I am also copying a bitcoin and electrum node onto it 13:18:54 Poor SSD haha 13:19:21 Yeah, our "filter" for research can (and should IMO) be much looser than that of an approved implementation 13:19:37 Even if the work was off in a few areas, it's a valuable and large leap forward to trustless swaps with Monero and should be lauded as such 13:19:50 sethsimmons: hm. cpu is running around 100C I think I need to check the cooling 13:20:10 Not to mention sharing it broadly quickly helps to draw more eyes on the research (hopefully) and gives more of a chance to see others chime in and improve it/help in the future. 13:20:30 gingeropolous: i'm not sure if we have a dedicated cc license for those files. I can take a look later. 13:20:30

uhhhh yeah your CPU cooler is broken/not seated 13:20:50 I hope h4sh3d[m] posts to the IACR archive too 13:20:56 sethsimmons: if there is interest I could do another run later on the 3970x + 3x NVME drives in raid0 13:21:21

I'd love to see a HW comparison post/tweet thread/etc., but lets take this convo elsewhere :) 13:21:40 sarang: I didn't yet but wiil do 13:22:04 Only if you wish to 13:22:17 But it will give it more eyes for sure 13:22:25 And perhaps publicity 13:22:42 The process is quite easy 13:22:44 yes, that's why I want to do it 13:22:50 Great! 13:22:51 more eyes 13:24:22 IACR would be great 13:24:37 mostly just to get all those crypto news articles from it 13:24:43 (kidding, I know sarang hates this) 13:24:44 -___- 13:26:10 on a different note: 13:27:04 the MCW board was able to vote yesterday and drafted their high-level ideas for this workgroup going forward 13:27:08 I'm fine with media coverage as long as it makes clear what a preprint is 13:27:26 You can read the draft here: https://gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/77932db05ada82012d4f86bc862c17fb 13:28:30 We feel that formalizing the workgroup will allow for new participants to get involved, especially on non-developer projects 13:28:48 Why an LLC? 13:28:51 and it will make maintaining community resources more stable and less reliant on people like Diego, Doug, and me 13:29:06 yeah, was going to say - what is the LLC about? 13:29:09 sarang: good question, something we talked about a lot 13:29:46 I think that will be interpreted as saying the Monero community is a company 13:29:55 Even though it isn't 13:30:09 as you all know the workgroup is very much acting in an informal nonprofit capacity at the moment 13:30:51 we considered an official nonprofit registration, but that is a ton of work, more than any of us can manage to put in at the moment 13:31:28 Yeah a 501(c)(3) would be a lot 13:31:35 and we decided that the benefits of having some entity are too strong to pass up 13:31:47 Like what? 13:31:54 why does it have to registered in the US? 13:32:01 if even registered at all? 13:32:10 for example, having a bank account to pay for server fees, rather than having me pay for them and doing a CCS all the time in XMR, then converting on an exchange someone is registered on rather than an entity 13:33:02 midipoet: doesn't have to be, but all our expenses are in USD 13:33:13 sgp_: fair point 13:33:57 maybe we should work towards greater geographical distribution, especially in your board. i mean if the US gets nuked, MCW is screwed 13:34:39 midipoet: if it gets nuked (unlikely; we aren't doing anything illegal), we can operate unregistered again I guess 13:34:58 I consider it getting nuked an extremely low risk 13:35:05 oh wait 13:35:09 read that wrong 13:35:15 hopefully we don't actually get nuked :) 13:35:45 but then you all are here to start your own entity or whatever. It's just been US people putting in a lot of these efforts so far 13:36:46 TL;DR on why we want an entity: we want a bank account 13:36:50 well, personally i don't really agree with all the formalisation, but if you think it's necessary - its up to the board! 13:37:51 other than the company, what are your other concerns? 13:38:47 It's certainly more formal/centralized than I expected 13:38:59 But thats not necessarily a bad thing, and could help to drive this effort forward if handled well 13:39:40 the biggest change in practice will be to come up with "committees" 13:39:42 Honestly it's probably the right approach, as centralization of a workgroup is really an advantage IMO, as long as people still see the gaps where they can contribute/the leadership don't do weird things contrary to the communities wishes 13:40:12 My only concern is if the board is interpreted as speaking on behalf of the project as a whole it could cause a lot of confusion. 13:40:22 i think creating a board that votes for its own members is questionable 13:40:44 would incorporating as "Not Monero LLC" help? lol 13:41:02 XD 13:41:31 I think just clear signalling/branding that makes it hard for people to conflate MCW the organization and Monero the project as one and the same 13:41:34 "Justin, incorrectly represented as the king of Monero and an officer of Not Monero LLC" 13:41:43 i also can't see (though i have not read it in that much detail) a formal manner to get someone removed from the board by the community. 13:42:06 but anyway, i don't really mind. i mean i trust the three board members - but to outsiders it may seem very different 13:42:17 Hmm thats a good point -- what community oversight is there if one or more board members goes rogue? 13:42:46 the committees can perform a coup I guess and migrate everything over to their own entity 13:42:55 there is also no defined reporting or audit mechanism for the board, as far as i can see? 13:43:57 is the board accountable to anyone/group? what keeps them in check? 13:44:16 midipoet: I don't think I included anything about specific reporting or auditing there 13:44:36 but with an open finance workgroup, the finances will also be pretty open 13:44:41 *committee 13:45:22 whats an open finance committe/workgroup? 13:45:35 basically volunteers who help with the basic books 13:45:38 anyway, i am getting distracted. i am sure other's have questions 13:46:14 I won't say my opinion, because i didn't give a deep read yet, but i wouldn't use the name "Monero Community Workgroup" for a legal entity. I think that would create a lot of confusion and could give the impression that an LLC is the general structure of Monero wokgroups, which is not the case. Monero workgroups are informal groups, if the community workgroup choose a different road, the difference should be 13:46:14 clear 13:46:21 i would also worry about having Monero in a LLC name 13:46:32 i mean, could end up in a law suit somewhere 13:46:40 Yeah i don't like that at all 13:46:44 not that i am a lawyer, but anyway 13:46:59 I'm more worried about the reputational risk than the legal risk 13:47:10 to who, Monero, or youself? 13:47:20 Monero if we named it poorly 13:47:28 the risk works both ways, imo 13:48:28 more i read the post more i think that calling it "workgroup" should be really avoided. 13:48:36 the whole thing sort of reminds me of what ZCash would do. or some other cryptos that have foundations, entities, organisations, etc. 13:50:03 well, we are neither Core Team members nor receive the block reward 13:54:43 My general opinion is that if you want to make an LLC who works with Monero, you shouldn't really use the name "Monero workgroup" in it. Simply because the structure you are adopting is not the structure of a monero workgroup, but something completely different and i don't want people to think the monero community suddenly decided to adopt this structure for its workgroups. 13:56:00 Personally i don't like such hyperformalization, i don't see the reason for it, but if people going be part of it are happy, good for you, but make clear that it's something different. 13:57:24 We will do our best to make sure that there is as little confusion as possible. Most people will not even know there's an entity involved, since how would they know and why does it matter? We are an entity around for the sake of providing free services to the community 13:58:38 I understand your point. But you are not just an entity, now you are a *legal* entity. I don't think making your best is enough, names are important. And calling a newly formed legal entity "Monero workgroup" is misleading 14:00:08 Also, i woud like to have more info about the legal consequences of this change. Because if i understood correctly, now the biweekly community meetings will be run by this "official" entity. 14:01:31 The #monero-community channel (and other things) is now listed as an asset of the company, what is changing from a legal point of view? 14:02:40 i think the MCW should hire a lawyer to provide an impact assessment whitepaper 14:05:47 I agree. I don't think you should just drop a change like this. Especially because you are not planning to create new tools, channels, resources, but to incorporate preexisting resources to a newly formed legal entity. 14:06:13 can you really own a freenode channel? 14:06:28 fluffypony what is your relation to fluffychat? We demand answer 14:06:40 he owns IT ALL 14:06:44 fluffychat? 14:06:49 this is MEA2! 14:06:50 .primer 14:06:50 The point is not how much i made, point is fluffy did this on purpose, more than 10 people were in on it. His commit access needs to be revoked asap! 14:08:38 fluffypony: don't pretend like you don't know? 14:08:56 I'm seriously lost - too much backlog lol 14:09:19 "Open. Nonprofit. Cute" is your kind of slogan 14:09:28 https://fluffychat.im/en/ 14:09:53 Can we keep this on topic Mumuks: 14:09:59 This is a pretty important discussion IMO 14:10:35 I didn't fully realize that this was taking over many of the existing tools of MCW, which again, with the particular people on this board I'm not too concerned 14:10:38 Yeah please avoid shitposting at least when an important conversation is ongoing 14:10:39 I did not realize there was a conversation going on 14:10:45 But it's a weird and sudden move that I was not expecting 14:11:06 I didn't even know there was already a MCW board :D 14:11:10 ErCiccione: we are not going to call the entity "Monero Workgroup LLC". Help us pick a better name 14:11:36 "Monero Workgroup LLC (unofficial)" 14:11:48 Services For The Monero Community? a mouthful, but accurate :) 14:11:53 I'm all for a formalization/organizing of the focus for the group, but the LLC and limited board with no oversight is a bit.. odd for something that many correlate to the Monero project as a whole 14:12:05 also this channel is already technically supreme-owned by Core 14:12:20 and it's already run by the same people 14:12:23 nothing is changing 14:13:05 f we do something dumb, Core can take this channel from us 14:14:06 But that's not really the case sgp_. Even in practice doesn't change anything, you cannot say that having some resources under the umbrella of a company doesn't make any difference. 14:14:31 Core is also definitely not a LLC (afaiu) 14:14:58 also, the name itself is not really much the point if the goal of the company is to basically replace the Monero Workgroup with a legal entity 14:15:35 So if you change the name of the company but you call yourself "Monero community workgroup", doesn't really change much :P 14:15:55 we still intend to call this the Monero Community Workgroup 14:16:31 What is "this"? 14:19:32 the operating name I guess 14:22:57 Well, that's what my objection is about. Incorporating existing structures to a new legal entity with a closed board who decides about it, it's a move i don't like. And calling it "Monero Community Workgroup" is misleading. That's not a workgroug, you are just transforming a workgroup in a legal entity. 14:24:08 Mastering Monero has always had a legal entity behind it, yet it's still open, people can contribute, and there's still a workgroup that's around supporting it that the entity is in "charge" of 14:24:53 the board is closed, but the entity is basically irrelevant since it understands how to best work with the community, since it's made of community members 14:25:20 the same people who have run the workgroup up to this point are the same three people who will continue to lead it 14:26:04 and we don't need to mention the company really at all if it makes people weirded out 14:26:21 "always had" is the key here and the entity produces a product "The mastering Monero book" so that makes sense. I don't understand why you speak like this change doesn't make any practical difference, it's obviously not the case, even if the people are the same and do the same things they were doing before. 14:26:25 I guess I'll sum up my question as this: what advantage does a closed board and new LLC bring, instead of just an open CW that has an agenda item to formalize it's focus/goals? 14:26:57 I think the formalization/focus is good, but I don't see why the closed board + LLC are necessary for that 14:27:26 sethsimmons: the "closed board" is already how it works in effect; if there ever were disagreements, people would always need to start their own group 14:27:55 I wasn't aware of that structure, but that's good to know. 14:28:45 i actually always thought the community workgroup was just an open workgroup 14:28:59 i definitely did not know there was a board 14:29:15 Same, I had no idea there was a controlling group of 3, but I guess it makes sense that there is a core group driving things. 14:29:27 midipoet: who did you expect has been planning all the stuff in the background for years? 14:29:28 but a closed group? 14:29:54 sgp_: the people who wanted to plan! 14:30:11 yeah exactly :) 14:30:16 i mean, i have lended some time to planning, so never felt it was closed 14:30:29 but now you are saying it was, and also that you want to formalise it! 14:30:48 Oh wow another sjw code of conduct 14:30:49 fwiw the group doesn't plan to ever be closed, which is exactly why we want to start delegating some tasks to people 14:31:00 people who are able to help out 14:31:15 what do you mean, you have just announced a plan to close the board! 14:31:19 literally! 14:31:37 He's saying the board will be closed, but committees will take over day to day tasks 14:31:45 and will be sued to delegate things out 14:31:53 the board still will care about community sentiment, and I guess you need to trust that us 3 will do that 14:31:53 So functionally it will remain the same, just formalized 14:32:18 so what if the board decides not to delegate, and to maintain control of the committees? 14:32:33 then that's a terrible, tiny community lol 14:32:33 (in some hypothetical scenario, let's say) 14:32:49 and honestly that's what it mostly looks like now (see the gist for all the rando stuff I'm doing) 14:32:51 sgp_: cmon, it' snot funny. we have seen things go bad 14:32:58 saying "it won't go bad here" 14:33:47 is not that valid... 14:34:10 the intent is to get more people involved than are currently helping with these tasks 14:34:31 with it being so informal, it's less clear what people should do, leading the barriers to entry high, and thus meaning the same faces keep doing the same work 14:34:45 we should be getting new faces in here in new leadership roles 14:34:52 yes, i agree. 14:35:16 so having a closed leadership board that essentially owns an LLC, is not the way to do that, imo 14:35:16 this entity is around to support the infrastructure I really believe needs to be in place to allow that to happen easily 14:35:27 I really don't see the point in keep saying "it was already like that but not fomalized". It's not a formalizations. It's a transformation into a legal company, with legal obligations, which is trasforming public resources into "assets of the company". I feel like this point is being understated. 14:35:53 ErCiccione: nah, the "assets" will still be open for anyone to use 14:36:11 we can still CC everything 14:36:18 In rpactice yeah, but not legally or formally 14:36:22 you can't ignore that 14:36:34 and if we don't, then we should receive pushback from you all, which is awesome and healthy 14:38:40 Mumuks[m]: hah cool - first time I'm seeing that 14:38:45 wish I could take credit 14:38:48 but it's not mine 14:39:17 why can't the MCW become a co-operative? 14:39:23 looks like it's just a Matrix clieent 14:39:24 *client 14:39:25 surely that legal structure is possible to implement? 14:40:52 sgp_ : you know what would be healthy? If you stopped making unnecessary power grabs. LOL 14:41:16 Idk that this is a power grab. 14:42:39 midipoet: possibly, depends what you specifically have in mind 14:43:12 since when is "I need an easier way to pay bills" a money grab lol 14:43:42 not that there's lots of things a cooperative will struggle to do, for eg. get a DUNS number 14:44:03 sgp_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative#:~:text=co%2Dop%20values.-,Cooperatives%20as%20legal%20entities,a%20range%20of%20social%20characteristics. 14:44:03 [WIKIPEDIA] Cooperative#:~:text=co-op values.-,Cooperatives as legal entities,a range of social characteristics. | "A cooperative (also known as co-operative, co-op, or coop) is "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned enterprise".Cooperatives may include:businesses owned and managed by the people who..." 14:45:40 cooperatives are pretty established where i am - and have substantial rights and affordances granted to them. may be different elsewhere, admittedly. 14:53:04 midipoet: I would probably need to talk to a lawyer to start one 14:57:53 a co-op might make sense; members who pay dues get votes, and they receive a "dividend" of sorts based on how much they spend on business goods/services 14:58:41 a co-op isn't a standalone structure in the US afaict; it's a corporation or LLC acting as a cooperative 15:06:27 imo to get this project off the ground, it's best to proceed as-is and consider operating as a cooperative if that makes sense. I need to do more research however 15:06:37 members getting votes is reasonable to me 15:09:17 I will need a good finance committee in place before we can do this though 15:12:54 Can't you just switch to a server that accepts crypto? What else do you need a bank account for? 15:20:40 I might have missed that in the backlog, what kind of USD payments is the workgroup expecting? 15:21:56 selsta: servers for NextCloud, Flarum, Mastodon, Chatwoot, Sandstorm/Wekan, etc. 15:26:24 What is the plan for funding? 15:28:50 "sethsimmons" (https://matrix.to/#/@sethsimmons:matrix.org): On a board of 3 you'd need at least 2 of 3 to go rogue to be a real concern, IMO 15:29:32 "sgp_" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_sgp_:matrix.org): What is the main work with creating a non-profit? Is it annual upkeep or creation based that's the problem 15:30:40 As an employee at my company I have access to a lawyer retainership thing for a flat $20/month that may be of use. Far rather have a nonprofit than a LLC 15:31:19 Creating a LLC or non profit just to pay for servers sounds super overkill IMO, isn’t this the exact use case for the general donation fund? 15:31:33 Hosting these services does not seem too costly 15:33:21 Plus paying with USD for an xmr association when you can pay them with xmr is just sad 15:33:26 Apart from bad pr 15:34:26 Mumuks[m]: lol you find reliable, inexpensive servers payable in XMR for your own workgroup then 15:34:45 selsta: Core doesn't want to maintain any of this 15:35:08 and to be honest, there should be a group separate from Core who is willing to provide services 15:36:32 xmrscott[m]: both? you need a bunch of initial policies, then you need to prepare the main application, then you need to file more extensive returns annually, and then you are prohibited from doing certain things 15:38:22 501c3 non profits are time consuming and expensive to incorp with irs because they have so many tax benefits, and they get a LOT more donations 15:38:52 Ah, so might even need an accountant rather than just a lawyer 15:39:09 But there are other non profit structures. 501c4, 501c12, 15:39:10 cassact[m]1: I know, I have one pending registration whose process started in early 2017 :) 15:39:45 Yeah IRS looks at 501c3s HARD 15:40:19 But don’t need to be a 501c3 to be a nonprofit, is what I’m saying 15:42:29 IMO it doesn’t really matter what the formal legal structure is, what matters is whose runnin it, and the bylaws 15:43:01 yeah, that's my perspective too. plus we aren't anticipating a profit so the benefits of a non-c3 nonprofit would be very small 15:47:43 Capsul.org (which I’m a part of) has affordable and payable in xmr, but we are still in open beta 15:49:59 Our group is having a lot of these same discussions so it will be interesting to see where it goes here 15:50:09 cassact[m]1: do you have scalable storage? 15:50:26 we will need for NextCloud especially 15:51:07 By request yes. 15:51:49 holy backlog :) What's the TL;DR? LLC for Community Workgroup? 15:55:02 Discussions around that topic yeah 15:55:16 dsc_: yeah, only for the sake of paying for stuff y'all need :) 15:56:01 seems benign 15:56:24 In true Monero spirit, people can do with their workgroup whatever they want :P 15:57:25 cassact[m]1: Cyberia is out of Minnesota? Nice :) 15:57:29 are the servers there too? 15:58:20 Indeed. People can create a 'Monero Illuminati LLC' if so inclined and throw XMR at people if so inclined 15:58:26 Our matrix and jitsi server is 16:00:00 We shipped off our Capsul server to Georgia though. Also right now we are pricing .25 cents for additional GB 16:00:17 so is anybody allowed to make s claim for community assets to be incorporated into their LLCs as well? 16:00:28 checking for a friend 16:01:25 Iirc that’s pretty fact specific 16:03:33 "midipoet" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_midipoet:matrix.org): I mean who is going to stop you, the Monero Illuminati? 16:05:31 nobody i suppose. all's fair in blockchain wars episode 4. 16:22:17 midipoet: I have no idea what you're getting at 16:24:08 It was a joke sgp_ , I was intimating that there are no real rules in the land of blockchain, as its decentralised and trustless. 16:26:29 ah 16:27:08 I will confirm with anhdres that we can continue using his artwork 16:28:19 'cause that brick-building Monero logo one is amazing 16:29:43 Let me just say that i'm not a big fan of "That's how we do it, if you don't like it fork away (or fund your own group)" IMO it's just an absolute mentality who leaves very few space for growth and increase the possibility of conflict when there could be none. 16:30:18 Beside, i still think that a for-profit company made to "pay bills" it's way overkill and doesn't explain the capillary structure of the company itself. 16:31:34 In any case, i hope that when the company will be formed and the assets absorbed by it, it will be made public, so that people will be aware of the structure "above them". People who contribute to the "workgroup" must be aware of its legal structure 16:32:21 What experience does everyone have here trying to manage US taxes, receiving donations, converting on exchanges, and paying bills for a non-formed organization on their personal tax return? Seriously 16:32:37 it's easy to armchair this problem away 16:33:37 sure, let me just handle all this extra work which messes up my other investment capital gains, no biggie 🙄 16:35:09 An LLC does not have to be “for profit”, only publicly traded corps with fiduciary duties to its shareholders have legal obligations to pursue profit 16:35:25 (Iirc) 16:36:24 And that's why we need more pseudonym cypherpunks to join this community, so that leading a workgroup doesn't mess up with "other investment capital gains" 16:36:46 lmao ok, that's respectfully absurd ErCiccione 16:37:06 don't tell me to ignore tax laws 16:37:10 It was just a provocation 16:37:19 i never said that 16:39:36 IMO it’s mildly crazy that Monero Core doesn’t have a lawyer on payroll. 16:39:56 Cuz this is what lawyers are for haha 16:40:07 maybe rehrar can do a by-mail degree? 16:40:11 they kinda do indirectly through Tari, etc 16:40:24 yeah cassact[m]1 we do 16:40:30 we use the Software Freedom Law Center for some stuff 16:40:38 It just make me feel a bit sad. I liked Monero when it was rough and dirty. Now i have the feeling that there is more interest in being compliance and make sure you don't bother uncle sam. I really understand the concerns and the wish of having a legal structure, i just think this is not a good way to do it. 16:40:56 and then stuff that falls out of their purview we use the GCs at Tari, GloBee, and one of my companies 16:41:19 so we really have no lack of legal help 16:41:30 ErCiccione: this isn't the whole community. Everyone else can still do whatever they want. This workgroup tries to involve everyone, but it certainly doesn't represent everyone 16:42:59 Core is sending me to law school boys. 16:43:06 lol noice 16:43:17 @fluffypony oh good. 16:43:28 "it's surprising Monero doesn't have an on staff doctor" 16:43:37 Oh god don’t do it rehear 16:43:41 Core is sending me to medical school boys. 16:43:51 fluffypony needs 24/7 anti-trolling counseling 16:43:58 +1 16:44:03 rehrar: akshully I have a Level 3 First Aid from St. John's 16:44:05 :-P 16:44:07 we need an intervention 16:44:24 I have my First Aid merit badge, available for hire 16:46:09 ErCiccione: I think you can still be "rough and dirty" while still doing stuff that doesn't land you in prison 16:46:18 like you can work on privacy software and also pay your taxes 16:46:51 and there's also an argument to be made for being open to attack if you don't take pre-emptive action on things like copyrights, trademarks, and patents 16:47:12 Tbh I’d be surprised if core doesn’t end up eventually needing a whole legal team, Monero is like a ticking time bomb of potential thorny legal questions, and the devs are the most likely target for frivolous lawsuits and gov overreaching 16:47:34 (fwiw Tari Labs has got a slow burn side-project looking at building defensive patents for Monero and Tari) 16:47:39 I think people overestimate the actions the US government will take against developers 16:48:04 well, at least against developers who are not adminstrators of a centralized network 16:48:16 s/defensive patents/a defensive patent portfolio 16:48:16 fluffypony meant to say: (fwiw Tari Labs has got a slow burn side-project looking at building a defensive patent portfolio for Monero and Tari) 16:48:24 Your probably right, I’m just paranoid haha 16:48:31 sgp_: yeah definitely 16:49:14 fluffypony: Yes, i wasn't talking about practical implications. it's just the feeling it's giving me. I too would have been surprised if core didn't have any lawyer or "legal strategy", but core has way bigger responsability. 16:50:12 I think i made clear the multiple aspects of this change. I hope i am wrong about everything obviously, but i still didn't like the move. 16:50:50 Patent law is incredibly fascinating. It’s even explicitly mentioned in the US constitution 16:52:45 any other questions or concerns? I wanted to make sure to openly share what we want to do that way there aren't any surprises, and allow for changes before they happen 16:52:55 I still think that if the reason is really merely "to pay taxes", many things in the post i read are superfluous and many "assets" didn't need to be incorporated. Anyway, i wrote enough about it. 16:54:23 A suggestion would be to post Bylaws and (redacted) articles of incorporation online. 16:54:47 I'm open to that, but they will probably be super boilerplate for simplicity 16:55:39 Also a warning to be very careful about who actually incorporates 16:56:01 Cuz depending on the state, 16:56:07 Personal details will probably become public 16:56:27 I already incorporated a company called rCryptoCurrency LLC in Wyoming that will be renamed and restructured. Wyoming is a favorable state 16:56:56 Ah yup, that’ll do it. 16:57:00 :) 17:02:30 "ErCiccione" (https://matrix.to/#/@erciccione_:matrix.org): FWIW, if you want that chrome cypherpunk feeling you can always attend the C3 Monero stuff in incognito assuming you don't already 17:03:45 i've been trying to participate for 2 years. For one reason or another i never could. In the future maybe? Or maybe not, we'll never know :P 17:07:52 ErCiccione: make sure to do the online Defcon stuff this weekend :) 17:08:58 I hope HCCP is still a live event 17:12:48 sgp_: Oh yeah, i won't miss that. 17:13:14 Conferences with no human interaction <3 17:14:44 dsc_: should I come? 17:14:49 rehrar: yes 17:14:55 you liked it so much last time 17:15:01 ! 17:15:13 In regards to this whole LLC thing, I honestly don't think there's a wrong way to do this. 17:15:45 For all accounts and purposes, the workgroup more or less already has just under a BDFL set up 17:16:09 maybe incorporating under a name like Monero Resources would be better than community though. I see that concern for sure. 17:16:55 because you can never underestimate people's stupidity. They will get it confused. The news WILL say that the Monero community started a business (when they didn't). If the business does something wrong they WILL say the Monero community did it (which would be wrong) 17:17:05 we saw this with things like the Bitcoin foundation. 17:17:16 Better to just avoid that entirely by choosing an appropriate name. 17:17:21 That name certainly sounds better and at least less likely to cause confusion 17:17:36 And no, adding Workgroup on the end doesn't fix anything. We won't be able to explain to everyone what a workgroup is. 17:18:12 dsc_: hanging out with friends was fun 17:18:15 the conference was kinda trash 17:18:16 it was :) 17:18:35 hmm I don't think it's trash 17:18:35 what conf was that? 17:18:41