ok lets not fork for 4 years. will we be decentralizede then

jwinterm: hmm, want to take another stab at an image that conveys the message I intended? It will be good to nail that down

eh, i like the real potential.

its a subtle nod to the fact that monero's still in development, and that theres actually a real potential that monero is the magic internet money ppl think the corn is

or it has a real potential to change the world

mebbe

Still I'd like to see another take

Maybe "Monero has REAL privacy" is enough

mebbe posted already forbes.com/sites/shehanchandraseker…privacy-coins-like-monero-and-zcash

<rehrar "how do you get the point where y"> I mean, honestly, heavy bags really given money is involved. If this was politics or worldview one might argue willful delusion via a combination of Id in hero worship or something... that is the refusal to acknowledge something is imperfect because you place your Id in it and to acknowledge it would somehow be a blow to your Id

OpenSSL was created circa 1998, but just because it was around for for almost 20 years does't grant it immunity to say, Heartbleed. Was heartbleed terrible? Yes. But you acknowledge it, patch it and move on. Denying it exists serves no purpose. Perhaps there's some parallel in CC tribalism/maxi's akin to psychology in dealing w/ people in denial in mid/advanced alcoholism

In other words treat BTC maxis like you would treat an alcoholic, IDK

xmrscott[m]: one reason why I don't own much Monero. It keeps me honest.

Yep, I think it's one of the great things about the community. Justin is involved in Zcash related protcols, Sarae gave a closer on don't be a tribalist basically at the end of Konferenco, etc. We're inevitably going go have some bias, but hopefully it's relatively small enough to be inconsequential to seeing things as they are

* Yep, I think it's one of the great things about the community. Justin is involved in Zcash related protcols, Sarae gave a closer on don't be a tribalist basically at the end of Konferenco, etc. We're inevitably going to have some bias, but hopefully it's relatively small enough to be inconsequential to seeing things as they are

Please let's not nuke the Facebook if anyone was thinking of that. It's important to meet people where they are. We should find more moderators for it if needed though

Is there much engagement there?

I nuked my FB account long ago

I'm kind of bummed I can't get more community support for the Discord, but I guess thats to be expected for privacy-conscious users. Its just such a common on-ramp for newbies in the space.

not necessarily, it may also look bad/ironic to newcomers

I doubt that for most who aren't heavily down the rabbit hole of privacy

I certainly understand the sentiment, but its a big loss in onboarding IMO

No one I know uses (or has heard of) IRC outside of my infosec coworkers

I'm certain I can't convince ya'll here but at least I voiced my opinion

I mean there isn't much activity in the Discord, but not sure if thats because its never been pushed/shared

Or if its because no one wants to use it

If the latter I'm happy with that

Would rather we moved to a better, more modern alternative for the majority of discussion like Keybase or Matrix

fort3hlulz: in my opinion there's a whole other set of users who are interested in using Discord. More similar to the Telegram users than the IRC users

We just have been turning them off until this point since we're using tools that they don't ever use

I only joined the community IRC channels initially because someone relayed them to Slack, then I found out about Riot

Yeah exactly

Discord serves a totally different userbase

At the end anybody can fire up a discord and discuss monero stuff, no? What's the blocker?

There is a discord, but not much activity, and no one that I recognize from the community is active on there

Apparently it was recently overhauled but not sure by who and with no announcement via any official channels

Discord is the largest platform for discussing cryptocurrency in the US, telegramm is the largest non-US chatting platform

(unbased claims but I'm pretty sure they're true)

bitcoin is the largest cryptocurrency by txs

in my opinion, it would be worth expanding the Monero Discord.. most channels on Discord are particularly unethical. Pump groups are common and users move from one scamcoin to the next

a large number of Discord users are teenagers, I believe. It's something to consider, many pump groups are likely run by teenagers

If that's the case than you only need reputable community members willing to deal with loads of teens on discord mostly interested to pump and dump. Good luck with that (maybe that's the reason why known folks are not interested in discord)

what I've been hoping to see from monero is some kind of catch for students

if someone tried to help, they're often pointed to github issues and that's.. hard on an experienced programmer

so that helpful person ends up somewhere else

discord would be a good home for that kind of workgroup

i rarely see people being pointed to github issues if they want to help. Usually they are suggested to contact a workgroup on irc, matrix etc. I agree more and diverse points of contact are good, but the problem remains: who is going to deal with that? Moderation requires time and efforts. The only thing needed is somebody to step up and start doing it, otherwise we can speak for days about how this or that

other tools would be good to have.

it's not that much effort, discord has partially working methods to block bot accounts

could bridge it to a new IRC channel and if just a few monero folk joined it, there would be more answers than questions

I guess it's not that unreasonable, might as well try it

#monero-learn is available

if I see a couple joins, I'll set up a discord bridge

"-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- The #monero namespace is managed by the monero project."

yeah I don't know how freenode works, but looks like #monero-learn is usable if others agree

relaying that music chat both ways might be a good start?

I didn't realize the freenode chats are only one way

anything that's collaborative is good

the Discord pools category can probably be cut down to one channel

some trading game would go over well I think, where users could bet or something. could pair well with r/xmrtrader

there's a trading game in #bitcoin-pricetalk we can steal :)

how does it work?

not sure to be honest, i just see people playing with it every now and again. i think that people bet on the bitcoin price

SatoshiBot, if you want to play around with it

this is a project that osrsneedf2p would be crazy enough to undertake

people really like games. minko blew up the transaction count when it came out haha

who's able to host them, though? they're not really legal in the states

no clue

i would

trading game is one game. what's another game idea?

for web projects?

spades, poker, blackjack

mostly for Discord, meant to encourage participation

we can come up with a bunch of trivia questions and spit one out at random

.trivia

Monero trivia though

yeah i think the monerobux one is broken too :( he's meant to give you 4 options

have you guys seen the SSO system recently created for wow?

.seen sso

that would be kind of cool in the monero ecosystem as well. community people have the option to setup an account on one platform managed by core team

then others can build apps that tie into that authentication system

lza_menace: asymptotically is trying to code "authenticate with wownero/monero priv8 key" functionality

an authentication system eh. should use a monero address and openalias

hyc: yeah, we're trying to modify RedHat's Keycloak atm

cool

what do you want to be able to login to with this SSO system?

... Symas has built a couple different SSO systems over the years

forum, ccs, gitea

the matrix

hyc: we (Wownero) use it for forum/ccs/gitea

I want to build some web apps and tie it into that auth as well

hyc: keycloak is nice SSO software, you should try it. I've had worse in past (CAS)

easiet is just to use Kerberos

in the past*

can never avoid needing to pass session cookies in a web app. so annoying.

hyc: Yes, but the web app does not need to validate against SSO, it can validate locally when it has the pubkey of SSO

Err, that came out confusing. Yeah, you'll have a session cookie.

sure. but kerberos already lends itself well to that style of interaction

Is Kerberos much different from OpenID Connect / OAuth2?

I don't have experiecne with it :D

kerberos prcedes them by a couple decades. it is often running in the backend of systems like that

it's also the basis of windows authentication. M$ uses it for their own seamless SSO fro internet explorer

back in 2003 or so I wrote an apache module to support it as well.

More intellectual honesty from the "core" bitcoiners :)

tl;dr - Bitcoin wont ever have Monero-like privacy

lol

fort3hlulz: is that what Andreas said or is that your analysis?

hyc: Heh' interesting. At my previous employer we did similar authentication related things with lua inside nginx-plus

Thats what he said

its a 1.5m vid

Well worth the watch

He made a unique post/video on the question of if Bitcoin would ever have Monero-like privacy

great reply twitter.com/mezie16/status/1280525920764395525 in crypto, 99% of the time, "zero knowledge" describes the person saying it

Saw that lol

hyc: LMAO

annoying that he mentioned the regulated exchanges comment. It's a naive way to look at compliance

We need that regulation framework....

fort3hlulz: can you share this link on Reddit?

yes

1:46 video and the last 20 seconds are just "please subscribe!" nonsense

nice video =)

yeah, overall a clear message

yeah it's quite clear overall which is super good

it' taken a while to get here

but "bitcoin is not a privacy coin" means "bitcoin is not a currency"

even in August he was sorta in the "hopefully CT will be a thing" camp

they still have a way to go ...

ty

worth a Blockfolio push?

Hmmm

Since it's not clearly advising Monero usage, and is more focused on Bitcoin I'm not sure

Oof, "zero-knowledge proof"... proving systems are not transaction protocols :/

I get the intent of the tweet

hyc: ring signatures are also zero-knowledge afaik

not necessarily

You can build ring signature constructions out of certain kinds of zkp systems, but also can build them with other witness-indistinguishable building blocks

Ring signatures are also not a transaction protocol :)

it has been proved that I have zero knowledge,

I have absolute anonymity \o/

I really wish the common terminology wasn't "ring signature == limited anonymity, zkp == full anonymity"

no kidding lol

They're both types of building blocks that can be used in transaction protocols with different properties

<fort3hlulz "Would rather we moved to a bette"> Keybase should be avoided like the plague. They got bought by Zoom who has not only deleted US based Hong Kong activists at China's request

But also given data to China on users which is suggestive of them giving data to USA as well

Zoom also for a time basically pulled a Zooko and said all free chats would be listened on as part of a collab w/ US LE

Oh damn forgot about that...

If you want a 1:1 type chat app I would recommend GNU Jami, have used it for a couple of months w/o issue w/ family

Ive moved my whole family/friends to signal over the last 6m

Jami looks cool

xmrscott[m]: have you tried toxchat?

i liked it

albeit the UI is very basic

I used Toxchat before I knew about Monero 😎

ooh, the real hipster! :D

Ah, Signal... surely the best way to support private communication is to give out your phone number :/

sigh

I love the idea of Signal; I hate the way they went about the implementation

its far better than anything else I could get normies on

And theyre going to phase out phone number

Yeah, it certainly has the convenience factor in its favor

but yes thats a huge drawback

dsc_: Yes, I tried either it or a client w/ the protocol I want to say 2.5ish years ago, community seemed dead at the time so I looked elsewhere

Like there was still very basic functionality missing at the time

<sarang "I love the idea of Signal; I hat"> Signal was even offered to federate their servers, someone had implemented the code for federation, and the Signal guy refused

Why?

Did they specify?

I don't remember exactly, at the time to me it sounded like excuses

Yep, they also at least a year ago refused to provide ARM binaries, which is why I started trying to get people to use Jami

Because Signal would then be nigh unusable when Linux phones came out this year, and I wanted encrypted texts and calls with friends when I make the jump via the postmarketOS CE PinePhone release this/next month

signal is moving away from the phone number being tied to accounts fwiw

Re: Discord, I believe the one that is currently bridged is 'official' right? Any reason why it can't be added here: web.getmonero.org/community/hangouts

For the purposes of easing bringing people into the community

Since that is a valid point, whoever raised it

it should be added

Alright, if no one else does, I'll add a PR by sometime late tonigbt

Can we allow people with high rep on the Discord server to send messages to here from Discord?

is this derpy_bridge_?

Yes

It looks like only publicly visible roles are pool ops and bots (and generic members)

Can we "rank up" users for completing a quiz about Monero?

Probably create another role that allows text send access on ORC channels

Via talking to one of said bots, etc

Pass the quiz, then you can post

Already done

Explained in changelog it looks like

See:

due to spambots if you wanna communicate with the bridges over the category IRC-RELAYS, you now have to type -role bridges in any text channel, it will unlock the permissions to write over there

Who owns the server?

Do any of you have admin on there?

(Also in welcome-info)

And can someone link me? Lost the Discord server somehow and cant find the URL lol

Rehrar and nm90 technically own, admin'd by a Kayla

<[discord] sgp#7572>: Test

i'm not a fan of the bridges (unless they work like the matrix ones) because irc mods only have the option to mute/ban the whole bridge and not someone on the other end

fort3hlulz: discord.gg/KstUYzW

asymptotically: ideally mods can be given permissions over their relevelant channels

Thanks

asymptotically: anecdotally, has there been any issue w/ Discord bridge since April

I'm happy to help out modding there, as I use Discord for other CC projects and so am normally on there pretty regularly

bridges are faily safe to use, trolling isn't common in my experience

But yes, also what sgp said should suffice, hopefully

not sure about since april specifically but i think the bridge has been k-lined at least once due to spam

<[discord] GoodEnough#2932>: test test

Nice

test failed

lol

If there are individual users abusing the bridge we can ban them in Discord

Instead of kicking the bridge like has been done recently lol

s/we/admins

<[discord] bemore#3657>: \wave

\wave

fort3hlulz: I'm happy to have you help mod discord if you want.

Id love to jump in

LOVE

<xmrhaelan> Is #monero-compliance matterbridge still down?

looks like it

<xmrhaelan> How to get back up?

rehrar? idk who does it

Is the bridge down as a whole?

Well obviously not.

Cuz xmrhaelan is talking through it.

When did it go down?

April 7?

<xmrhaelan> I just haven’t seen anything on #monero-compliance in awhile

> not sure about since april specifically but i think the bridge has been k-lined at least once due to spam

asymptotically to be fair, freenode itself also experiences spam attacks that they cannot handle

there are days where a user logs in, spams three offensive messages, leaves, and then pops onto a new account and repeats

spam is a general issue with chat platforms as a whole, it is not an issue with any particular relay. Being able to enforce the spam over the relay is important, though. Generally if theres a relay, the room's mods should have mod privs over the relay so they can deal with spam as it happens.

The benefits of relays far outweigh their costs imo

You might find it hard to believe, but newbies dont think IRC is the flashiest thing ever, and are usually pretty hesitant to use it.

Which is a shame

IRC being push-only with no ability to retroactively enforce, the 'spam issue' is really an IRC issue

sgp_ perhaps we should have an initiative to somehow get relay statuses

idk how we'd do it

but a page saying whats up/down would be neat

eh? you just said spam happens on all chat platforms, why is it an IRC issue?

Ok. Is it good now?

Hyc IRC is push only

You can't delete spam as a mod

Only remove users after the fact

It's one of the only chat platforms I can think of where that's the case, actually

The telegram relay had to be removed, for example, because despite fantastic automated enforcement of spam half a second after it comes up, it still passed through the relay, and IRC's design made that horrendous for the people on the other end

<cankerwort> ia801504.us.archive.org/34/items/da…Enforcement%20Tracing%20Efforts.pdf

Hey rehrar, revuo says that CLI v0.26.0.1 is out :P Might wanna fix the typo before people think they're way behind haha

Ah, looks like hyc reported the same in Reddit. Sorry for the double report :)

cankerwort: note that this doesn't really reflect negatively of Monero. The report very clearly is about an entity the US government seems to think is a VASP

<cankerwort> @sgp I agree, although it makes me think that KYC-free instant exchanges will end up a sort of hydra like the DNMs themselves

Is that not expected by many?

<cankerwort> Yes I suppose so. Also an interesting example of how the messaging of "monero is better than a mixer" alone can lead to BTC being tainted.

<[discord] Kayla#5718>: blog.chainalysis.com/reports/plustoken-scam-bitcoin-price

<[discord] Kayla#5718>: mixers dont work, is just a myth 😛

<[discord] Kayla#5718>: "The scammers have transferred the Bitcoin more than 24,000 times, using more than 71,000 different addresses — and that’s not even counting cash outs or transfers to off-ramps such as exchanges. "

<[discord] Kayla#5718>: still the funds were able to get tracked down and those analysis algo getting better by the minute