-
apotheon
Holy crap. Reading more of the Google v. Oracle majority opinion by Breyer shows that actually a lot of previous expectations and assumptions about copyright adjudication are being subtly, but strikingly, overturned.
-
apotheon
I'm beginning to sense a mortal blow to the copyright maximalists' "copyright is a property right" side, with Breyer running a lance through that motherfucker while wearing the favor of the "copyright is a pragmatic incentive for innovation" principles.
-
as2333
apotheon, is that why the 'copyright' privilege has been extended to 200 years after the death of the author or so?
-
apotheon
That's part of it.
-
apotheon
Mostly, it's money.
-
as2333
hehe
-
apotheon
Money at that level is a proxy for political power.
-
apotheon
. . . but the people with that money *love* to argue that copyright is property, because that serves them.
-
apotheon
Mostly, they just want to be served, and will latch onto any argument that works for that purpose.
-
Plummybo[m]
Copyright length always extends when Disney's copyright on Mickey Mouse is about to run out.
-
as2333
well the utilitarian argument that it's good for 'innovation' is even worse IMO
-
as2333
...because utilitarianism boils down to "anything goes"
-
apotheon
Plummybo[m]: Not always, actually. The earliest Mickey-related works have entered the public domain, because Disney was too busy sucking all the blood out of Marvel.
-
apotheon
. . . but up to that point, yes, what you say was right.
-
apotheon
I think Disney decided that Steamboat Willie doesn't matter any longer.
-
apotheon
I also think that Disney decided that the overwhelmingly huge trademark situation around Mickey is plent for the sake of crushing people who get near its copyright.
-
apotheon
as2333: The "incentive" argument at least doesn't result in the entire culture being frozen in concrete for all time, with creative people never being able to make anything new unless they're working in the coal mines of major copyright holders.
-
apotheon
The incentive principle of copyright means that, if something doesn't incentivize innovation, it's not protected from being reused in some way.
-
apotheon
The property principle means that just *looking* at someone a big corporation "owns" is dangerous if you are professionally creative.
-
apotheon
s/at someone/at something/
-
apotheon
though perhaps "someone" applies a little, too
-
apotheon
The dissenting opinion by Clarence Thomas is basically just a bowl of sour grapes and assertions that nobody should ever be able to make API-compatible things without paying so much money it becomes effectively impossible.
-
apotheon
Clarence Thomas' opinion, if it represented the majority decision, would basically result in the death of a lot of open source software and probably the entirety of the industry of independent software development.
-
as2333
apotheon, so you think the utilitarian 'justification' may lead to less insane copyright laws? Well, could be.
-
apotheon
Hell, it might even create an opportunity for someone who wrote a howto book years ago to sue a bunch of other authors and publishers for organizing a book in a usefully instructive way.
-
apotheon
as2333: I think it'll lead to less insane court decisions, at least. I don't know if this will make a dent in Congress at all.
-
apotheon
I guess the downside of this is that, if Clarence Thomas had won, darknet-based software development and distribution would almost *certainly* have to become *HUGE*.
-
apotheon
Open source devs would have to move to pseudonymous dev with distribution via onion and garlic routing just to survive the legal fallout, probably.
-
apotheon
That's a little bit of an upside, but it's kind of an "accelerate toward open war to overthrow the regime" upside -- and I'm uncomfortable describing dead bodies as an upside.
-
apotheon
Copyright-as-inviolable-property-right would basically be a new war of prohibition.
-
apotheon
Well . . . I'm getting too exhausted from reading all this stuff from the court decisions.
-
apotheon
I should get off the computer for a bit.
-
louipc
would the play in 3 acts be banned
-
apotheon
louipc: No. The fourth century use of the three act structure would no longer be protected by copyright. In fact, it would be substantially more than a thousand years later before the first example of meaningful copyright as we know it was even conceived.
-
boogerlad
are there any stats on how many attempted double spends have occured? As a thought experiment, I was wondering about monero being accepted at brick and mortar stores. Obviously, waiting 20+ minutes for a transaction is unacceptable, but 0 or 1 confirmations might be enough if the risk of double spending is equal to the likelihood of counterfeit
-
boogerlad
fiat
-
nioc
I don't know the answer to your question but the other thing to consider is the value of what is being sold
-
louipc
grsec sells a non distributable gpl licensed product just fine :D
-
nioc
from both the perspective the amount that the merchant could lose and the likelihood that someone would try
-
louipc
for mad bux
-
nioc
for a cup of coffee I don't think either side cares
-
louipc
depends. sometimes they must protect their brand
-
boogerlad
what about for groceries? Someone can spend more than 100USD at checkout
-
Elementoshi[m]
nioc: is your last name tib?
-
boogerlad
I was thinking for groceries, they could prepay how much they think they'll spend, and on checkout, they'll be refunded (like preauthorized gas pump via credit card), but it's complex with lots of potential problems
-
nioc
boogerlad: ultimately it's up to the merchant
-
Elementoshi[m]
what's wrong with just sending monero to pay for groceries?
-
nioc
boogerlad: yes I think that someone mentioned something similar quite a while ago
-
Elementoshi[m]
if it's a physical checkout line, you don't need escrow I wouldn't think
-
nioc
double spending is not easy
-
Elementoshi[m]
right now I have to pay with a debit card at the grocery store. Or cash.
-
nioc
when xmrto was in business they would send as soon as the tx hit the mempool for smaller amounts and $100 would definitely qualify
-
Elementoshi[m]
Now that xmrto is down, where do you go to exchange monero for bitcoin, or vice versa?
-
boogerlad
isn't double spending as easy as broadcasting transactions to nodes on opposite sides of the world?
-
nioc
if it was easy then nothing would work
-
boogerlad
*attempted double spending
-
Elementoshi[m]
double spending is one of the first problems addressed in 3blue1brown's video "But how does bitcoin work exactly?"
-
boogerlad
in reality, I'm sure timing the network is hard
-
Elementoshi[m]
transactions you make have a unique ID so if you wanted to double spend you'd have to make a new transaction with a different ID
-
Elementoshi[m]
which has to be signed again by the sender
-
Elementoshi[m]
so wouldn't double spending by "not easy" as in if you had the ability to do a double spend attack you might as well just empty the victim's address/account too?
-
as2333
boogerlad, yes you can attempt to double spend as much as you want. The whole thing is designed to prevent double spends =P
-
boogerlad
correct me if I'm wrong: "The whole thing is designed to prevent double spends" AFTER several confirmations right?
-
as2333
boogerlad, yes.
-
boogerlad
so for high value transactions, how can monero replace cash? Right now, you'd need to wait for however many confirmations the recipient feels is necessary
-
boogerlad
assuming an in person situation
-
as2333
boogerlad, yes, the higher the value, the more confirmations you should wait for. I'm not sure that's the biggest obstacle for cryptocurrencies to replace cash tho. (I don't think cash should be replaced anyway)
-
boogerlad
yes, the more that I think about it the more it makes sense for monero to be for general online transactions (it's totally fine to wait for confirmations since it takes time to prepare an item to ship)
-
as2333
boogerlad, notice that in order to double spend you have to be a miner and to re-write many blocks you have to be a big miner.
-
boogerlad
big miner as in > 50%?
-
boogerlad
of the network hashrate
-
as2333
I don't know the exact relationship between % of hashrate and the number of blocks you can re-write. If you had say 10% you might be able to reverse a transaction after say 5 blocks. Something like that. But the thing is, if you're selling something to a potential scammer, the scammer has to be a miner, or somehow contract with a miner.
-
as2333
(which is not something a random is scammer is likely to do IMO)
-
boogerlad
I see what you're saying. In that case, the scammer wouldn't bother trying to double spend 100-1000USD since the costs might not be worth it?
-
as2333
right
-
boogerlad
They would want to try to double spend a much higher value, but then since it's a higher value the recipient would naturally want to wait for the standard 10 confirmations
-
as2333
yeah
-
boogerlad
thanks as2333, that puts my mind at ease
-
boogerlad
0-conf is fine for brick and mortar stores :)
-
as2333
and to reverse big transactions with many confirmations requires a 'rogue' miner.
-
as2333
a rogue miner can in theory exist but attacking the network is likely to go against his own interests.
-
boogerlad
then, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on why "(I don't think cash should be replaced anyway)"
-
as2333
(though in the case of monero where commodity hardware is used for mining, I gues it might be possible)
-
as2333
guess*
-
as2333
boogerlad, well, digital systems are rather tricky when it comes to tracking/surveillance. Physical cash has less problems in that area (though of course curreny physical cash is controlled by the govt, which is pretty bad)
-
fdidmwkk
For a community that prides itself on manipulating people, you can't manage a single guy that spends most of his time in his underpants :D
-
williamjack[m]
Been in the rabbit hole for a while now but I’m curious as to what made you choice element over any other messenger
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
monerod logs say "Verification failure". Should I be worried? What is it about and why did it happen?
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
Does this mean that there's an invalid block/transaction in the blockchain now? I suppose not, but that's what it sounds like.
-
Bill48105
what up Norkle
-
Bill48105
.tip Norkle $0.05
-
Wallet
Bill48105 tipped 0.0001864 XMR (≈$0.05) to norkle [7d1690ed]
-
Norkle
hey Bill48105!
-
Norkle
WOH!
-
Norkle
thank you Bill48105.
-
Norkle
so generous and kind
-
Bill48105
Wallet taking over the world eh
-
Norkle
tytytytyty
-
Norkle
sure.
-
rottenwheel
.balance
-
rottenwheel
.bal
-
bxbapgjanfd
Dear fireice_uk. I must strongly object to you reporting our great Monro community members to Freenode for racism AND getting people K-lined as a result! i.imgur.com/R0T9GGY.png THEY ARE NOT NEO-NAZI!!! THEY ARE JUST SAYING NEO-NAZI THINGS!! i.imgur.com/JYu44As.png I know this because they have been nice to me and made me their Magical Crypto Friend! If you don't cease immediately I shall throw another tantrum!
-
bxbapgjanfd
Monero Community Member PS. You are interrupting my session of masturbation to The Man in the High Castle.
-
jonah_xd[m]
imagine being british
-
azy
dont need to. what did we do now?
-
jonah_xd[m]
being british
-
azy
-
jonah_xd[m]
wish matrix could embed images
-
charolastra
oi mate, got a loicense for that (beeing british)?
-
azy
im glad hexchat doesnt
-
mechanic41turk[m
azy: you guys still need loicence to leave your country?
-
azy
funnily enough we're currently not allowed
-
azy
its somewhat possible to just swim to france though
-
hyc
you'll need a license to stay in other countries tho. just ask the brits living in Spain about that
-
moneromooo
It's just what passports are. You need to request permission from your govt and the other in order to move around. The default is DENIED.
-
moneromooo
Currently, it's just that the default is seldom overridden :)
-
azy
laws are for good bois
-
azy
bad bois do whatever they please, and get away with it
-
jonah_xd[m]
guess i'm a bad boy
-
azy
illegal immigration seems to be very popular, and tolerated, especially in europe
-
azy
ive kinda tickled myself with the bad boi analogy. i actually genuinely believe that. i dont think it pays to be a good boi at all, you'll just get trampled on
-
azy
brb swimming to france illegally
-
hyc
azy: probably true in most of modern society, but that's because criminals are controlling govt and writing the rules
-
azy
there's also massive limitations on what police forces can actually achieve, and so so so many people doing so many illegal things. it's herding cats
-
moneromooo
I wish they wouldn't waste *my* money on spying on me and bothering pot smokers. That might free a lot of resources to actually do some police work.
-
moneromooo
OK, that's a bit flippant but... ffs, it pisses me off sometimes.
-
azy
even that. i saw a guy on tv with a house full of plants, stealing electricity, and he gets a caution
-
azy
in that game, to get caught i think you need to get really really unlucky, do something really dumb, or have someone snitch on you
-
azy
it seems incredibly hard to enforce laws, we should have far less of them
-
hyc
who governs least, governs best
-
hyc
most laws are just nitpicky special cases anyway
-
hyc
should just have a few, like don't harm others, don't deal dishonestly with others. done.
-
mechanic41turk[m
<moneromooo "It's just what passports are. Yo"> I don't remember getting a stamp of approval from my govt whenever I try to visit other countries.
-
moneromooo
EU ?
-
moneromooo
Those (most) have an agreement so it doesn't apply there.
-
mechanic41turk[m
Not an explicit stamp, anyways.
-
moneromooo
Oh, the fact it might not be checked doens't mean you're supposed to ask.
-
moneromooo
Like, you might not be searched when you leave the supermarket, doesn't mean you're allowed to steal :)
-
ieatglueinthegul
Also wear ten masks
-
mechanic41turk[m
moneromooo: well the with the uk you get to be searched for thieving everytime you leave the supermarket
-
mechanic41turk[m
If the analogy permits
-
ieatglueinthegul
Well you better get used to requesting them stamps
-
mechanic41turk[m
Communism is back!
-
ieatglueinthegul
It never went away, merely changed its aesthetics
-
» moneromooo steps back carefully
-
mechanic41turk[m
Hmmm... Long walk through the institutions..
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
In RPC-Pay, does the client that generates the hash know whether that hash is valid for a new block or not? That is, could the client filter out all hashes that can be used to mine a new block and send only the other worthless hashes?
-
moneromooo
Yes, yes.
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
Ok! Does the monerod server need to run in mining mode for it to utilize these hashes? Or can it not mine, but just when someone sends a valid hash, then use that. But otherwise, not mining.
-
moneromooo
No.
-
moneromooo
And yes, if the second sentence was also a question.
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
"No" = "doesn't need to mine"?
-
moneromooo
Yes.
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
Yeah, my message was very unclear..
-
chile09[m]
how long does an XMR swap take usually?
-
Elementoshi[m]
you mean an atomic swap?
-
chile09[m]
what's an atomic swap?
-
azy
how are you swapping monero
-
moneromooo
Monero doesn't need sweeping, it's naturally untainted.
-
moneromooo
Alternatively, Monero can't be sweeped, it's naturally tainted...
-
chile09[m]
<azy "how are you swapping monero"> using an online swap service
-
chile09[m]
it's actually LTC to XMR
-
charolastra
you're sure you didn't get scammed?
-
moneromooo
Ah, an exchange. It then depends on both chains finding blocks really. And whether each of them has txpool backllog.
-
azy
then it's a question for the service, not monero
-
moneromooo
Monero's unlikely to have serious backlog, and 2 minutes per block.
-
chile09[m]
what would be the block time for LTC
-
moneromooo
Pretty sure it's less than 10 minutes.
-
moneromooo
Of course, these are averages/targets for both monero and litecoin. You could get unlucky.
-
chile09[m]
Is there a recommended swap service that you can vouch for
-
sech1
LTC block time is 2 minutes
-
chile09[m]
What is a recommended way to do LTC to XMR swaps
-
moneromooo
-
moneromooo
Now vouching is another matter.
-
somethingUniqueR
.faucet
-
Wallet
somethingUniqueR: Access denied for faucet. Are you logged in?
-
rottenwheel
.faucet
-
somethingUniqueR
.faucet
-
Wallet
somethingUniqueR: Access denied for faucet. Are you logged in?
-
rupee[m]
.faucet
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: Zero less than 9?
-
rupee[m]
yes
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: Oops that is not correct. Try again later.
-
rupee[m]
dammit. i knew that one. I've seen it before.
-
rupee[m]
Oh, I bet it wanted "9"
-
moneromooo
It's numbers. 1 is true. Then again, 2-9 are also true.
-
rupee[m]
.faucet
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: 10000000 times 3 divided by 7 multiplied by 0
-
moneromooo
nice one
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: Oops you took too long.
-
rupee[m]
0
-
somethingUniqueS
.faucet
-
Wallet
somethingUniqueS: Access denied for faucet. Are you logged in?
-
rupee[m]
.calc 10000000 * 3 / 7 * 0
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: 0
-
rupee[m]
this is hard
-
rupee[m]
.faucet
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: 1 more than six
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: Oops you took too long.
-
rupee[m]
7
-
rupee[m]
wth. I can't type that fast.
-
rupee[m]
screw it
-
rupee[m]
.soak $1
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: Really soak 0.00376569 XMR? y/n (10s)
-
Wallet
Cancelled Soak
-
rupee[m]
y
-
rupee[m]
:(
-
rupee[m]
.soak $1 y
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: Really soak 0.00376569 XMR? y/n (10s)
-
rupee[m]
y
-
Wallet
rupee[m] soaked 0.00025 XMR (0.00376569 Total) upon 15 users @ 955 minutes charolastra louipc moneromooo bxbapgjanfd stev3 hyc Elon_Satoshi NickvanSaberhagn Bill48105 norkle nioc Wallet boogerlad chaper fdidmwkk @bonuspot (0.00001569 scraps) [9efc171e]
-
moneromooo
.help dice
-
Wallet
moneromooo: I'm a cool multi-coin multi-platform bot by Bill48105. Docs:
bill48105.github.io/wallet | My core commands: .balance .deposit .faucet .ping .soak .tip .val .withdraw | .help <games|share|misc|other> to see others | .help <cmd> for more details.
-
moneromooo
oh well
-
somethingUniqueR
.balance
-
Wallet
somethingUniqueR: • Your balance is: 0.0000013 XMR (≈0 USD)
-
somethingUniqueR
.faucet
-
Wallet
somethingUniqueR: Of 3 & 0, which is 3
-
somethingUniqueR
3
-
Wallet
somethingUniqueR: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000041 XMR to somethingUniqueR [d989d790] Wait ≈23 hrs 54 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01236468
-
somethingUniqueR
.balance
-
Wallet
somethingUniqueR: • Your balance is: 0.0000054 XMR (≈0 USD)
-
nioc
.balance
-
Wallet
nioc: • Your balance is: 0.01023936 XMR (≈2.75 USD)
-
nioc
w0w
-
hv-bridge
<Ericfreeman> .balance
-
entry1[m]
Damn, you both rich rich
-
azy
.balance
-
Wallet
azy: Your default coin is now set to XMR. Change with coins command.
-
Wallet
azy: • Your balance is: 0.00025 XMR (≈0.07 USD)
-
azy
.tip moneromooo 0.00025
-
Wallet
azy tipped 0.00025 XMR (≈$0.07) to moneromooo [5fd72843]
-
moneromooo
ty
-
moneromooo
.tip gingeropolous 0.00024
-
Wallet
moneromooo tipped 0.00024 XMR (≈$0.06) to Gingeropolous [953f6b1a]
-
moneromooo
Let's play the pass it around till it reaches 0 ^_^
-
gingeropolous
.tip nioc 0.00023
-
Wallet
gingeropolous tipped 0.00023 XMR (≈$0.06) to nioc [eb2ede3c]
-
NickvanSaberhagn
.balance
-
Wallet
NickvanSaberhagn: Your default coin is now set to XMR. Change with coins command.
-
Wallet
NickvanSaberhagn: • Your balance is: 0.00025 XMR (≈0.07 USD)
-
NickvanSaberhagn
.tip moneromooo 0.00025
-
Wallet
NickvanSaberhagn tipped 0.00025 XMR (≈$0.07) to moneromooo [bf0ea4fb]
-
gingeropolous
.balance
-
Wallet
gingeropolous: • Your balance is: 0.002941 XMR (≈0.8 USD)
-
nioc
.tip NickvanSaberhagn 0.00022
-
Wallet
nioc tipped 0.00022 XMR (≈$0.06) to NickvanSaberhagn [4371af81]
-
nioc
Am I doing this correctly?
-
nioc
Just woke up from a nap
-
nioc
.00021 is next?
-
donkeydonkey[m]
.balance
-
Wallet
donkeydonkey[m]: Your default coin is now set to XMR. Change with coins command.
-
Wallet
donkeydonkey[m]: • Your balance is: 0.0005 XMR (≈0.14 USD)
-
donkeydonkey[m]
.soak 0.0001
-
Wallet
Total was <= 0. Minimum: 0.00015 XMR. (Min per user met?)
-
donkeydonkey[m]
.soak 0.00015
-
Wallet
donkeydonkey[m] soaked 0.00001 XMR (0.00015 Total) upon 15 users @ 871 minutes Bill48105 hyc stev3 fdidmwkk moneromooo rupee[m] nioc Elon_Satoshi norkle boogerlad bxbapgjanfd charolastra hv-bridge louipc Wallet [3480d715]
-
yeswepump
nice
-
yeswepump
.balance
-
Wallet
yeswepump: • Your balance is: 0.0000077 XMR (≈0 USD)
-
hyc
.balance
-
Wallet
hyc: • Your balance is: 0.001061 XMR (≈0.29 USD)
-
hyc
woohoo
-
donkeydonkey[m]
<moneromooo "Someone (can't recall who) poste"> chile09: i posted that list originally and since have had feedback that
xmr.is works great and actual people respond to support questions.
-
lnpqecvqyrvf
Why lie about something that can be easily disproven? monerologs.net/monero/20201207#c165563 - github.com/fireice-uk/cryptonote-speedup-demo/blob/master/ecops64/ecops64-c.c#L4 Why steal from your community and then laugh at them? reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6d6okb/what_fluffypony_just_did_is_not_ok Reason is the same - to laugh at morons that are gullible enough to believe you and repeat your lies.
-
ra33it0[m]
.balance
-
Wallet
ra33it0[m]: Access denied for balance. Are you logged in?
-
chile09[m]
Is there an app that can perform atomic swaps between locally held wallets
-
raccoondude
Hey, I need some help, a transaction I made over 16 minutes ago isn't in the mempool
-
raccoondude
What should I do?
-
raccoondude
Wait, it says "failed" now?
-
raccoondude
BTW, I need to get a place to buy monero or BTC in small amounts fast, any ideas?
-
moneromooo
That's odd. "Failed" implies it's neither in the txpool nor the chain. 16 minutes is way too early to have been dropped from the txpool with a timeout.
-
moneromooo
So it implies the tx is invalid. But if it were, your daemon would have rejected it outright...
-
moneromooo
Binance, kraken are good places to buy monero with bitcoin.
-
raccoondude
Using a ledger to sign the transactions
-
raccoondude
Yeah, im using gemini
-
raccoondude
But its S L O W
-
raccoondude
Let me resend the XMR...
-
selsta
raccoondude: which wallet are you using?
-
moneromooo
Can you this in monerod: print_tx TXID (and replace TXID with the actual txid).
-
raccoondude
Ok resending it worked (371412cf0a5161aed12112427f5982e80dbfda47cc297f9295e02b8d7a4066da)
-
raccoondude
Im using monero gui
-
raccoondude
wallet, on getmonero
-
raccoondude
the one that supports ledger
-
raccoondude
Sadly I can't find many that do, I might switch my wallet to one thats just a seed instead of my physical wallet
-
MichaelAmoani[m]
How can I join the pool
-
raccoondude
Like a mining pool?
-
moneromooo
You point a miner to it, with your monero address as username.
-
moneromooo
Then you wait while it mines. You'll get monero to that address after your share of the spoils reaches the payour threhold (which varies per pool).
-
moneromooo
xmrig is the go to choice.
-
apotheon
rupee[m]: I suspect the "Zero less than 9?" is Bill48105's way of saying "Of Zero and 9, which is smaller? Render your answer in the form of a single digit." because grammar doesn't matter at all.
-
apotheon
rupee[m]: The rules of this game seem to be "the answer will be in the question unless it's an arithmetic operation, and it will always be a single digit", so if the question makes absolutely zero sense you should just pick a digit to represent one of the things mentioned.
-
moneromooo
I remember a cultural knowledge thing about... pigs IIRC.
-
hurricane[m]
-
hurricane[m]
WTF
-
hurricane[m]
why MOB and not XMR?
-
rupee[m]
<apotheon "rupee: I suspect the "Zero less "> Then I should've typed "Zero" instead of 0, maybe?
-
rupee[m]
<hurricane[m] "why MOB and not XMR?"> Because monero is decentralized and permissionless
-
hurricane[m]
yep
-
hurricane[m]
another shitcoin on cryptonote, with Ring Signature and RingCT. Pff...
-
hurricane[m]
ridicolous
-
apotheon
rupee[m]: Oh, did you answer 0?
-
apotheon
hmm
-
apotheon
. . . and it was rejected?
-
apotheon
damn it
-
apotheon
Grammar is actually important.
-
selsta
hurricane[m]: afaik signal creator also created mobilecoin
-
apotheon
hurricane[m]: What's MOB?
-
rupee[m]
ah, no I typed "yes"
-
hurricane[m]
MOB? One new shitcoin
-
apotheon
rupee[m]: I see.
-
apotheon
hurricane[m]: What's the supposed value proposition?
-
apotheon
I don't think I've ever heard of it. Is MOB short for something?
-
moneromooo
Mafia.
-
rupee[m]
-
hurricane[m]
idk
-
apotheon
(like how XMR is stock-ticker-style abbreviation for Monero)
-
apotheon
mobile
-
apotheon
hmm
-
apotheon
'kay
-
hurricane[m]
MOBile shitcoin
-
selsta
it uses stellar consensus protocol combined with ringct, also you have to use an intel CPU to run a node
-
apotheon
So . . . what's the actual problem with it?
-
hurricane[m]
btw, i don't think the sec will let them, like they did with telegram
-
apotheon
Oh, the Intel thing seems weird.
-
moneromooo
It gives intel the right to mint AFAICT.
-
apotheon
That seems like an issue.
-
apotheon
Is that the main problem?
-
selsta
also they had an undisclosed premine
-
apotheon
weird
-
rupee[m]
no, it was disclosed
-
moneromooo
I'm not sure, mind. It does give intel some special power though.
-
rupee[m]
250 mm coins
-
rupee[m]
they just don't disclose who gets them
-
selsta
right I meant undisclosed is who they are distributed
-
rupee[m]
and if they ever do disclose who got what there won't be anyway to prove they're not lying
-
selsta
that wasn't a proper english sentence :D whatever
-
moneromooo
Don't worry, we also fuck up our grammar.
-
Bill48105
moneromooo actually 0 less than 9 is 9-0 or 9 :)
-
apotheon
Oh, undisclosed recipients . . . slightly less weird.
-
moneromooo
Ah.
-
apotheon
still a little weird, in a way
-
Bill48105
they're designed to be weird & ambiguous they're text based captchas
-
rupee[m]
weird in a big way. 100% of monero was/is distributed to miners
-
apotheon
Bill48105: Oh, that wasn't as ungrammatical as I thought, in that case. It was just ambiguous as to whether it was awkward grammar or incorrect grammar. Sorry.
-
Bill48105
kek
-
Bill48105
no point in over-analyzing them. they're not meant to be grammar school pop quiz questions
-
selsta
-
Bill48105
i mean guess it's cool they make people think a little but they're supposed to be fun not cause stress
-
selsta
> Purchasers of MobileCoins may not transact, transfers, or trade MobileCoins in the United States or with U.S. Persons or entities, or persons or entities present in the United States.
-
selsta
that's also weird
-
moneromooo
Yeah, it's ungrammatical.
-
sech1
Safeguard against SEC/IRS
-
apotheon
Bill48105: It's not over-analysis if one doesn't yet know how to even answer it.
-
apotheon
one 9 with a 7 boat
-
Bill48105
lol if you say so
-
apotheon
6?
-
Bill48105
in school we were taught x less than 9. maybe you werent
-
apotheon
What's the answer?
-
moneromooo
42
-
Bill48105
yours is literally gibberish
-
apotheon
In school, I learned "What number is x less than 9?"
-
apotheon
Bill48105: So was the subject of debate about grammar in another channel.
-
Bill48105
you're being pedantic
-
Disorganized
Question for the crowd, I'm following the directions for running monero on QubesOS at
getmonero.org/resources/user-guides…_daemon_isolation_qubes_whonix.html however the monero-wall-cli is unable to connect to monerod in the other domain. I'm not sure if I should ask here or over in #qubes, but i'm trying to figure out what might be wrong.
-
Disorganized
I guess one question for this channel would be, does monerod need to be fully synced before a wallet can make a connection to it?
-
apotheon
probably at least very-nearly-synchronized
-
moneromooo
No, however not all RPC will work.
-
moneromooo
getinfo will work, for example.
-
moneromooo
But.... /me thinks
-
moneromooo
Well, memory fails, but at least one will return "BUSY".
-
moneromooo
Also, having monerod sync while the wallet tries to sync off monerod kills performance. You don't want that.
-
apotheon
Ah, that's interesting.
-
nioc
.faucet
-
Wallet
nioc: 3 more than six
-
nioc
42
-
Wallet
nioc: Oops that is not correct. Try again later.
-
Bill48105
6+3=9
-
moneromooo
.faucet
-
Wallet
moneromooo: How many wolves in Three Little Pigs
-
Bill48105
1
-
apotheon
I think nioc enjoys testing incorrect answers.
-
moneromooo
lol
-
Wallet
moneromooo: Oops that is not correct. Try again later.
-
moneromooo
see ?
-
moneromooo
Cultural thing
-
Bill48105
i had someone bitch at me for 2 hours that it's wolfs not wolves
-
moneromooo
Though that one I know. It wasn't the one I was thinking about...
-
apotheon
Bill48105: That person is wrong.
-
nioc
wolves
-
moneromooo
.faucet
-
Wallet
moneromooo: Zero less than 8?
-
Bill48105
point isnt if they were right or wrong it's that they were so obsessed they wasted 2 hours on nonsense
-
apotheon
. . . and I wouldn't care much about wolfs vs. wolves, anyway, because it doesn't interfere with figuring out the answer.
-
moneromooo
Indeed.
-
Wallet
moneromooo: Oops that is not correct. Try again later.
-
moneromooo
But wasting hours on nonsense can be *fun* :D
-
apotheon
The only thing that bothers me about the three little pigs here is that it's not clear whether it's 1 (because there's one wolf in the story) or 0 (because it only refers to three little pigs, not any wolves, in the prompt).
-
Bill48105
pro tip: all answers are single digit 0 thru 9. while some may have multiple correct answers the correct one is the best one within that scope.
-
Bill48105
it's no different than taking an iq test & failing miserably because you over think "how far can the human eye see"
-
apotheon
"best"
-
apotheon
in someone's head
-
moneromooo
Ooooooh, good point apotheon, very pedantic outlook :D
-
moneromooo
Well, fucking far. Light years away at least.
-
Inge-
There is no limit to how far the eye can see
-
Bill48105
more proof of over-thinking a Fn bot text captcha based on children's stories
-
apotheon
It didn't occur to me that 1 was a valid answer until Bill48105 offered that answer.
-
apotheon
. . . but it is valid given the lack of clear parameters.
-
Inge-
or, the limit is 0, since it can't actually see anything at a distance - photons must hit your eye
-
somethingUniqueR
overthinking is what humans do
-
Bill48105
i need to remind myself daily there are people on the spectrum online
-
moneromooo
OOooh, I like your answer Inge-
-
apotheon
The human eye can see to the first obstacle, at least.
-
Bill48105
indeed Inge
-
nioc
anyway that story totally mischaracterizes wolves
-
Guest_28
If i want to learn more about the project, is Zero to Monero v2 a good start?
-
Bill48105
you can see as far as light can travel but you can't focus on it
-
moneromooo
Yes, definitely a good start.
-
apotheon
I like Inge-'s from a sort of "that's interesting" approach, but I think that abuses the term "see".
-
Inge-
Guest_28: that should take you trhough a lot of detail too
-
moneromooo
If you're technically minded anyway.
-
Inge-
apotheon: then perhaps Existential Comics aren't for you :P
existentialcomics.com/comic/1
-
apotheon
nioc: How do you mean it mischaracterizes wolves? I can think of several answers, but I'm curious about yours.
-
Bill48105
some of the questions on the bot were taken from my kindergartener's school book so.. lol
-
moneromooo
In the one I know, it implies wolves are capable of complex communications with humans (well, at least one wolf with at least one human).
-
apotheon
Inge-: I like existentialism, so . . . maybe?
-
Bill48105
like the 0 less than 9 one.. was about apples Jane had
-
Guest_28
I see thanks. Math part looks challenging, should be doable though.
-
moneromooo
Also, the unlikely size of a wolf's stomach.
-
moneromooo
The expected lifetime of a human in a wolf's stomach.
-
moneromooo
The ability of a wolf to eat a human without the humans's or the wolf's death.
-
nioc
wolves are not the indiscriminent (sp) predators that they are portrayed in so much of literature
-
moneromooo
The lack of fight/flight response from the wolf when confronted with a human.
-
» moneromooo stops the pedantry
-
Inge-
do Pedantic people naturally end up with software, or does working with software development make you a pedant?
-
moneromooo
Good question. I don't remember... I suspect those things kinda reinforce each other...
-
nioc
wolves are amazing beings
-
Inge-
apotheon: This sentence contains exactly one error.
-
» moneromooo goes find it to prove Inge- wrong on a technicality
-
apotheon
moneromooo: That's the Red Riding Hood story, not the Three Little Pigs story (re: human in a stomach).
-
moneromooo
Right. I'm not familiar with the pig thing. Kinda rings a bell though...
-
apotheon
nioc: Oh, so you mean literally. cool.
-
apotheon
Inge-: Software dev, for someone trying to be good and thoughtful at it, probably makes people more pedantic, regardless of what kinda people software development attracts.
-
nioc
if moneromooo doesn't know the story of the 3 little pigs then my whole view of the universe will crumble
-
moneromooo
To my disquiet, I have been thinking coders and lawyers have a fair bit in common re pedantry...
-
Inge-
heh
-
Inge-
Software development and ambiguous specs are always fun.
-
Inge-
"fun"
-
apotheon
Inge-: That's a good strip. I come to different conclusions about various parts of it, but it's a good story anyway.
-
Inge-
apotheon: and that is just one of many ... lots of fun stuff there
-
apotheon
moneromooo: The pig thing is the story where the wolf will huff and puff and blow the house in.
-
apotheon
moneromooo: It's an admonishment to build things to last, to value quality, and to not be a slovenly jerk who has to mooch off others because of a failure to plan for the future.
-
apotheon
moneromooo: I think the main difference beween programmer-style pedantry and lawyer-style pedantry is that programmers want to build things and lawyers seek rents (in the economic sense of the term).
-
apotheon
There are exceptions, of course.
-
apotheon
There are almost certainly more exceptions on the programmer side than the lawyer side.
-
apotheon
Inge-: Thanks. I might read more of that.
-
apotheon
One big failing in that specific strip is that it assumes a world where longevity research isn't getting anywhere significant.
-
apotheon
. . . which we don't yet know.
-
apotheon
. . . but that's fine. As a self-contained tale, it's good.
-
apotheon
Another is that it assumes things about the source of consciousness that evidently aren't provable at this time.
-
apotheon
(By training, I'm more philosopher than anything else, I guess.)
-
yanmaani
moneromooo: Did that "multisig messaging system" ever take off?
-
moneromooo
It's in. Whether used, I don't know.
-
yanmaani
moneromooo: does it work good etc?
-
yanmaani
is it considered stable for production use?
-
moneromooo
I don't know.
-
Bill48105
my favorite part is being so pendantic to analyze and break down specific classes of pendantry LoL
-
Disorganized
following up on my question, i figured out the problem. the documentation needs one change to mention that the rpc action file in the monerod-ws needs to be executible. I'll make a PR for the documentation update.
-
chile09[m]
will monero GUI wallet work in Qubes?
-
moneromooo
Yes.
-
moneromooo
er, actually... I did a year or two ago. I assume it will still do...
-
chile09[m]
but it requires separate ws for monerod and wallet?
-
moneromooo
Dunno what ws is.
-
chile09[m]
workstation
-
moneromooo
Oh, course not. Just an appvm or two.
-
chile09[m]
but will it work in 1 appvm or it requires 2
-
moneromooo
Either works.
-
chile09[m]
how long to sync?
-
moneromooo
Days with HDD, hours with SSD.
-
chile09[m]
pruned?
-
Disorganized
chile09[m]: i'm going through that process right now. throw some solid vcpu on the monerod appvm while syncing.
-
moneromooo
Should not matter that much, network should not be your bottleneck.
-
moneromooo
Currenrly, syncing pruned still writes everything, then prunes ~5k blocks earlier. This is for simplicity in case you're used by another peer.
-
moneromooo
But it does mean more I/O usage.
-
Disorganized
now if I can just get monero-wallet-cli to recognize my trezor...
-
selsta
Disorganized: try installing trezor bridge
-
Disorganized
yeah i think that's gotta be my problem. i've got it installed, but not sure it's working.
-
Elementoshi[m]
try systemctl start trezord?
-
Disorganized
it fails
-
Disorganized
failed (Result: exit-code)
-
Disorganized
nice lol
-
Disorganized
and /var/log/trezord.log is empty
-
chile09[m]
is it possible for sync to be blocked?
-
moneromooo
Yes. If no peers, if there's a bug which causes it to reject valid blocks.
-
Disorganized
okay, fixed that
-
chile09[m]
Is remote node faster?
-
chile09[m]
or security is bad
-
moneromooo
Remote means your comms with it are going through the internet, so use SSL and a cert whitelist. But traffic analysis can be done.
-
moneromooo
Your server may also be compromised, if it's a VPS somewhere.
-
moneromooo
Now, if by remote you mean "some stranger's node" then... duh.
-
chile09[m]
yeah then no lol
-
chile09[m]
so bottleneck for sync is not network speed?
-
moneromooo
On your setup ? Dunno. But probably not.
-
chile09[m]
network speed is slow according to sync_info
-
moneromooo
What is the queue line looking like ? It should have lots of o and . in it.
-
moneromooo
Near the top.
-
chile09[m]
more o than .
-
moneromooo
Does it start with m(atch) then several o ?
-
moneromooo
If so, the network download's ahead.
-
chile09[m]
.oooooooo_ooooooooooooo
-
moneromooo
Oh, not good. It means it's waiting fo the network for the next block. Though it's got a nmber of the next blocks ready.
-
chile09[m]
its at ~40%
-
chile09[m]
is it possible the traffic is being throttled or blocked by port# or protocol its TCP right?
-
chile09[m]
how can you tell what the . o and _ mean
-
moneromooo
. is requested, o is received, _ I can't recall. Some rare thing.
-
moneromooo
m is received and matches what we need next.
-
chile09[m]
where did you find that info
-
moneromooo
I made it up.
-
moneromooo
It's true though.
-
chile09[m]
I'm confused
-
moneromooo
I coded the thing, so made the symbols up.
-
chile09[m]
oh ok, is there documentation that contains a legend
-
moneromooo
No.
-
moneromooo
But if it says mooo, you're good. And the more o's the better.
-
chile09[m]
is that a joke
-
moneromooo
IIRC / or _ mean a break in the set, something was not requested but we need it.
-
moneromooo
No :/
-
chile09[m]
it just seems to be staying at the same %
-
moneromooo
Does the sync line starti with mooo ? :P
-
chile09[m]
8 kB/s
-
chile09[m]
is that slow
-
moneromooo
Yes.
-
moneromooo
But if it's downlaoded enough, it'll stop for a bit and wait for the queue to drop.
-
chile09[m]
the queue?
-
moneromooo
As represented in that line.
-
moneromooo
It downloads spans of blocks to a queue, and monerod verifies those spans. The mooo line represents the state of the queue.
-
chile09[m]
ok what protocol is used to contact the blockchain
-
moneromooo
Custom.
-
moneromooo
over HTTP.
-
chile09[m]
its plaintext protocol?
-
moneromooo
Yes.
-
chile09[m]
can't MITM just block this
-
chile09[m]
isn't it supposed to use encryption
-
moneromooo
MITM can block it. It's public atm, but vtnerd may add encryption at some point.
-
chile09[m]
vtnerd? is CLI wallet more secure?
-
moneromooo
Than what ?
-
chile09[m]
than GUI
-
moneromooo
I would say yes, but not great certainty.
-
chile09[m]
what I mean is, is it using same HTTP protocol?
-
moneromooo
Yes.
-
moneromooo
However these don't squawk P2P, monerod does.
-
chile09[m]
how do they squawk
-
moneromooo
JSON RPC between wallets and to monerod, P2P between monerod and monerod peers.
-
chile09[m]
P2P is a protocol?
-
moneromooo
monerod uses a custom P2P (peer to peer) protocol over HTTP to talk to other monerod.
-
apotheon
erm
-
apotheon
Are you saying monero-wallet-cli effectively uses the same P2P protocol because it's attached to the monerod node?
-
moneromooo
No.
-
apotheon
okay
-
moneromooo
JSON RPC between wallets and to monerod, P2P between monerod and monerod peers.
-
apotheon
I guess I'm confused about why this:
-
apotheon
21:23 < moneromooo> I would say yes, but not great certainty.
-
apotheon
(re: "more secure" than GUI wallet)
-
apotheon
Is that just a commentary on software complexity?
-
melona
hello
-
moneromooo
I'm... not sure. I think it's mostly a bias due to knowing it less, and it using javascript.
-
moneromooo
Both use wallet2 internally, so only the shell differs.
-
apotheon
I see. Okay, thanks.
-
melona
for smartphone mining is not working
-
melona
with disabled jit works but is useless
-
moneromooo
Then don't mine on the phone.
-
melona
why not to have real mining on phones too
-
melona
today smarphones are very powerful
-
apotheon
Yeah, it doesn't seem likely that mining (even in a pool) is an especially useful pastime on a smartphone.
-
chile09[m]
RPC is JSON is more secure than P2P HTTP?
-
melona
mining on a phone means to decentralize more
-
moneromooo
If you find a way to speed up mining / make jit work on that phone, a PR would be welcome.
-
apotheon
melona: Smartphones consume a lot of resources just for the base OS setup with its default-included services and applications, so it's difficult for me to imagine it being productive with leftover resources.
-
dgoddard
IIRC hyc said he was mining happily on his phone, don't recall the details
-
moneromooo
The P2P comms are more secure, mostly because there's much less attack surface and that's suppose dto be exposed.
-
M4268583364[m]
<melona "today smarphones are very powerf"> Not that powerful, you'd get around 500h/s if you're lucky but you'd be wearing out a lot of components
-
melona
i mean that are not like 10years before and this help on decentralize more
-
M4268583364[m]
Yeah
-
chile09[m]
but http is plaintext and you can just firewall to DoS
-
chile09[m]
can it sync over tor
-
melona
hyc is here?
-
apotheon
signed in, at least
-
melona
i have xiaomi note 4 and 8
-
moneromooo
Both are over HTTP. It can sync over tor. Not much point though unless your ISP will report you to your govt for running a monreo node.
-
melona
not working
-
apotheon
Whether hyc is paying attention to the channel right now is another matter entirely.
-
apotheon
melona: ISPs might do that.
-
melona
block monero
-
apotheon
moneromooo: I meant to send that to you, but whatever.
-
apotheon
Weirdly, if I type m and start tab-completing, it seems to want to go through the whole list of m-names other than moneromooo before it gives me moneromooo.
-
moneromooo
Anti spam measure.
-
apotheon
I'm guessing that was a joke.
-
apotheon
. . . because I'm pretty sure tab completion is implemented in the client here.
-
moneromooo
It was.
-
chile09[m]
ISPs throttle and block traffic
-
chile09[m]
how to route via Tor
-
moneromooo
See README.md, grep for torsocks.
-
apotheon
moneromooo: good one
-
apotheon
I just started second-guessing. "Wait. Is that possible?"
-
apotheon
"It's a good joke -- almost *too* good."
-
chile09[m]
<moneromooo "See README.md, grep for torsocks"> Thank you for your patience and responses🙂
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Hi
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
On macos trying to install the Monero cli
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Where do you guys recommend extracting the folder to?
-
Bill48105
ok cool good catching up too many a's
-
moneromooo
That guy whould win the lottery first try, no question.
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
I'm still here
-
moneromooo
Then as long as it's not overwriting anything else, it should not matter.
-
moneromooo
Somewhere in your PATH if you want to use it later without cd or writing path.
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Thanks
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Ok another question sorry still new, its giving me the "monerod" cannot be opened because dev not verified error
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
I know I can right click > open to get past this
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
But if I want to do everything through terminal how do I allow it to open
-
moneromooo
"cannot be opened because dev not verified" doesn't look like monero error. GFive the exact error.
-
selsta
aaaaaaaaaaaa_: you have to open it once through finder I think
-
selsta
then you can use from terminal
-
moneromooo
Oh it's a "signed by apple" thing ?
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Yeah
-
selsta
yes
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
That annoying thing
-
selsta
we sign the GUI
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Ok ill just open it in finder once
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Just messing around with monerocli to learn so I was trying to do everything through terminal
-
selsta
you can compile monero yourself :P
-
selsta
then you can open it through the terminal
-
exypjhbtkgt
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Failed to bind IPv4 (set to required)
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Failed to bind IPv4 (set to required)
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Failed to bind IPv4 and Failed to initialize p2p server
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Oh shit I spammed it my bad
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
But I'm getting that when trying to run ./monerod
-
selsta
aaaaaaaaaaaa_: do you have monerod already running?
-
selsta
try ./monerod exit
-
selsta
wait 20 seconds
-
selsta
then ./monerod
-
selsta
hmm he quit
-
aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Sorry did I miss the response
-
selsta
yes
-
selsta
maybe monerod is already running in the background
-
selsta
try ./monerod exit
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selsta
wait 20 seconds and then ./monerod again
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cryptoglyph[m]
Can I buy monero using cake wallet?
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apotheon
moneromooo: Do you use any smartphone-based wallets for Monero?
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apotheon
ndorf: Do *you* use any smartphone-based wallets for Monero?
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aaaaaaaaaaaa_
selsta: thanks that worked
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apotheon
No, I won't ask everyone in the channel individually.
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aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Can I use a remote node as a seed to sync?
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aaaaaaaaaaaa_
Like one off moneroworld or something