welcome accelerate_capit!

we don't have a huge set of running tasks per se, but there are always things that we need help with

for example, we Monero Space is looking for someone to do a weekly trading show, but that's a pretty big commitment

Hi sgp_ - that makes sense. Is there a way to stay in the loop on those tasks as they come up? Would I just need to frequent this chat or is there another way?

also what is Monero Space?

accelerate_capit: best way is to frequent this chat and #monero-space imo

Monero Space is another workgroup that tries to be more project-focused

Ok cool - will do. I'm curious what this weekly trading show is?

we don't really have a Monero-focused trading show at the moment, but there's a pretty large community in r/xmrtrader on Reddit. The point would be to do short recap videos focused around news and trading to support that community

needmoney90 is a mod there and he would be a great person to talk to about that

so maybe a good starting point would be to review the most recent discussions there to see what the community is like

Ok will do - thanks so much for the welcome and starting suggestions! If I have learned anything so far, it is that the Monero community is very welcoming.

we also have a general need for a more news-y show that doesn't talk about trading much

hhaa yeah, like I said, a lot to do and it's really what you make of it :)

it's always easiest when people contribute in ways they enjoy

Samsung, when do you disclose the Monero Space is your private company? I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.

Do your say it or do other people?

I know there are typos,..it's been a long day,...but please answer the question this time.

thunderosa__: Monero Space is a workgroup, and it doesn't take an agreement with MS to join a chat hosted by another company (Freenode)

That's not what I asked.

I know you see yourself as a defender against tyranny of sorts, but really you're just putting people off who really just want to get more involved and do good, like everyone else here should be doing

I find no need to say "Monero Space LLC" in regular conversation, there

No, you've misjudged and dodged in one motion.

When does he find out?

whenever they want, it's not a secret

It's kinda a secret and you just went through lengths to try to keep it a secret. I'm confused I guess.

we have a company whose purpose is to be billed for the cool stuff we build, whoa

jesus to what extent do I go through lengths to keep it a secret

am I murdering people in their sleep

or do I talk openly about it when you keep asking/spamming about it endlessly in every related thing we do

I keep asking because you decline to answer.

I decline to answer whether Monero Space LLC is a company?

No, that you merely try to subdue

I think you have unrealistic expectations

you wouldn't be happy if we renamed the workgroup to Monero Space LLC

That was mostly what I was asking.

I wonder where Monero Outreach gets it's money from

that makes no sense, I was originally known as my nickname sgp_, not my SSN

for-profit would be nice,..I understand that to be your chosen status

lol, "for-profit" = "I have spent thousands of my own money this year"

yep,..same here

so what's the difference?

I'm merely billing the relevant expenses as business expenses

I'm actually completely fine with you having your company. I really am. It bothers me when that might come as surprise to people.

there's no difference. the only people who would freak out are those who have no understanding of how organizations work

In the whole LLC thing on getmonero,...I just wanted clear labeling

it's dumb fear-mongering

Be whatever,..do whatever,....but be open about it

it's like me warning against all usernames who begin with the username "t" *might* be malicious

like sure that's possible, but it's a useless thing to say

You were right that the "T" thing was a stupid example.

It's immaterial at least.

glad we're on the same page, now just look at your actions from an outsider's view

I do,...I check myself constantly.

okay, just please leave us alone

Who's us?

well, me especially, but don't hate on everything related to Monero Space. The volunteers make a lot of good stuff

and getting caught on these quarrels is just a waste of everyone's time

I agree there.

Be a company, do what you want,....but be upfront. That's it.

maybe set some clear expectations about what you exactly would be happy with so people can see just how high of a bar you have

I have a pretty high bar it's true. This is Monero,...high bars are expected.

I don't want to express the bare minimum,...I'd like you to exceed the bare minimum and change the fucking world.

wow so productive, it was so obvious all along

my apologies for not wanting to improve the world from the start

take it how you'd like. That's what I'm about,..doing better than before.

I could have sworn I saw an announcement, maybe on the YT channel.

Several weeks ago... right?

There was also a very quiet Reddit announcement after the whole monero-community thing.

Saying it once and being done with it isn't quite right though.

why don't you share your full name in every post for transparency's sake? because that would be a dumb expectation

Because I do not want personal attention on me,..I want the work to be worthwhile or not. I'm not you.

but for all I know you work for the NSA

sure

so maybe chill that we're open about who we are and where we're registered

But you can look at my track record and see that I've never led a visitor into the 5 eyes knowingly.

The effort is to keep getting tighter,...smaller,..more secure. That's what makes me lose sleep.

TBH, I don't see the issue. I've formed LLCs. never thought of it as a nefarious act.

More decentralized,...not more.

I've setup dozens of LLC's,..it's not a problem with the instrument. Sometimes it's right.....but this use case doesn't add up

Alot because it's Monero,..and the bar IS high.

Should be high.

Justin could have done this in a way that I might be able to support.

But I need alot more honesty to trust,.....and Justin will agree that we've bumped heads a few times on the visitors right to privacy,...or at least trying.

I think it's worth trying.

Like if we talk about financial privacy all day,...but don't work on how that's happening.....I am black and white on this. How could you look those folks in the eye?

You must be kidding right?

I don't mean to be kidding.

What have I missed?

To me it seems tjat you are going overboard with this

Seems that there is more here than your "simple" request

I'd agree that I'm advocating for higher,...I don't know if it's overboard. I know this tastes like metal.

I've had a few run-ins with Justin,....I'm not hanging on to that though. But where it comes to visitors and contributors and their right to know,...I do get passionate. I guess I feel like if we're not taking that serious then we've lost the plot.

perhaps perfection is the enemy is great

Good enough is the enemy of great. Good luck!

Perfection is the enemy of good.

Justin, I just want to make this clear. I like what you do. Really. But I don't like how you do it. I've got no grudges,...no vendettas. I just think you could be more honest then you have been. I'm sure you've got a come back...you can type it if you want. But until I see a different pattern from you, that's where I'm at.

I'm rooting for you,...I want you to succeed.....this is Monero.

<xmrhaelan> Not how I was hoping to jump back in on the matterbridge.... thanks for fixing it though! (Pigeons?)

<xmrhaelan> Thunderosa and SGP are both passionate about protecting peoples privacy and freedom. They both have very different means to that end. Let’s keep our eyes on the prize and not get too hung up on our perceived differences....please....

<xmrhaelan> As grandpa said, “There are many ways to skin a cat.” We don’t have to always agree on how we do things as long as we can trust we are working toward a common goal. I haven’t seen any reason to believe I can’t trust either of you to be working toward what you believe

<xmrhaelan> ...to be the best thing for Monero

I know it's easy to armchair this, but really I see the solution as quite clear: allow Monero Space to do its own thing without interrupting and making a fuss every two seconds

Label it.

Chin up.

<xmrhaelan> I must have missed something. You guys are taking this too far.

No,..it's the same as all the other stuff from the past few weeks....probably just as a nexus here. I said what I meant,...I suppose that Justin did too. I do not know where it goes from here, but I do want to make it clear again that do like what Justin does, just not how he chooses to do it. I'd be a goddamn kitten otherwise.

The request to put 'llc' next to every instance of our name solely because we use a legal tool to aggregate payments for tax purposes is a ridiculous request.

> we have a company whose purpose is to be billed for the cool stuff we build

^ that does say a lot though, to be fair.

> I wonder where Monero Outreach gets it's money from

nioc: also a fair question

> the only people who would freak out are those who have no understanding of how organizations work

sgp_: ^ i really do not think this is true.

> I could have sworn I saw an announcement, maybe on the YT channel.

dgoddard: there was also a pledge to publish the company by-laws, including information about the board and profit distribution (when/if it makes profit)

How much is preserving e-penis of your leaders worth? A month of work? Three moneths of work? A year of work? 2.8 bil?

Come to t.me/monero_peace Telegram, if you are not afraid of getting excommunicated.

jess: ^^

Wtf, the propaganda is getting petty

Getting?

i would not advise petting e-penises

I have not yet given up hope that people can agree to some sort of compromise regarding that "LLC" story

Monero Space would be completely free where to mention that, or not mention that

Monero Space would also not get excluded anywhere from getting mentioned / listed because of this

But in exactly one place, where Monero Space is introduced in sort of an "official way", on the GetMonero.org group page

there would be not a warning, not a disclaimer, but a simple stating of fact, in a short sentence, that this is an LLC incorporated in the US

so all fundamentalists, people who have a grudge against anything US, people from US-sanctioned countries like Iran get informed and can stay clear if they so wish

and everybody else is not molested, confused, etc., but can happily interact with Monero Space

I don't understand why people assume that the scope of US involvement doesn't impact individuals...

Again, the company destination is completely arbitrary

And I'm tired of saying this over and over

@needsmoney - Most companies display their status in their materials. Often it's small text, but it's not hidden.

@nioc - Most MO funding has come from the community and so we're answerable to the community.

^ that doesn't make sense. If I opened a CCS up for Monero Space for 1 XMR, suddenly it's all good? Is that what you're saying?

because I'm happy to do that if that's all it takes

No, you're conflating the hell out of my answer.

But go ahead if you'd like.

.c 150*10

+100 for rbrunner comment

-1 for the constant bickering

xmrhaelan[m]: it's one person, one vote here. make some alts if you need ;-)

shit, i mean one pseudonym, one vote

to be fair though - this sort of comment is what (i think) makes people (me at least) question the LLC structure for Monero Space "we have a company whose purpose is to be billed for the cool stuff we build"

it can, of course, be called "fundamentalist" to not agree with that ethos

but it's not necessary, imo

and indeed could even be seen as an underhanded attempt to draw comparisons to more nefarious ideologies

I'm failing to understand the perceived problem here honestly

there were a number of concerns raised initially

my own was concerning the self-appointed board

and the pursuit of profit by a "community workgroup"

and the fact that the LLC was said to going to have by-laws to ensure it didn't become something akin to the ECC debacle

the three above are just my own opinion

feel free to ignore

my take is that these are perceived concerns, and if they ever become real ones, then add disclaimers. But that would be necessary because the workgroup would then be generally acting in bad faith, and would have nothing to do with whether it has a supporting company or not

but "this person might eventually be a bad actor" can apply to literally anything

sure. but it sets precedent for how a workgroup "may" look

does it not?

so what happens if that starts becoming the defacto?

I don't think the Monero website should dictate these things

would that be a good thing?

sorry?

that's not what i getting at

the website has nothing to do with this

it's about my perceived concerns about how work groups should be organised

this is why the website is relevant monero-project/monero-site #1383

as legal entities or not, about profit pursuing or not, about hierarchies, or not.

sgp_: i am not discussing a pull request

i am discussing my own concerns

I'm confused, is this a general thought exercise about community organizations in general or something you are asking of Monero Space

i was responding to a question posed by Lyza

ah

well obviously I can't speak for what other workgroups do

no

Sgp honest question.. what’s the worst that could happen by having a small print disclaimer the workgroup is an LLC?

but you can place in context what Monero Space might mean for future workgroups

and you can also place in context of whether Monero Space sets some form of precedent for workgroups

xmrhaelan[m]: I'm worried that the ill-informed will just use it to cause conflict

there's no justifiable reason for the statement there in my opinion

what does ill-informed mean?

a newcomer?

Sgp what about the reasons rbrunner stated? “so all fundamentalists, people who have a grudge against anything US, people from US-sanctioned countries like Iran get informed and can stay clear if they so wish”

in this case, I mostly mean those who improperly assign risks to the distinction

xmrhaelan[m]: the MCW is run by rehrar who is a US resident...

Anyone could assume leadership though, an individual is different than a legal entity

no see that's where your perception is inaccurate

How so?

an individual is a legal entity

an individual is a "sole proprietorship"

Only if they register as such with the government to do business

not true, you're still personally liable for everything you do

the fear of the US government reaching out to an entity or individual is the same in both cases

people perceive them to be different but they are NOT

sgp_: that only applies if rehrar is running MCW as a business

is he?

not only "businesses" can be contacted by the government

this seems to suggest that it is a business

the US gov could try to contact Outreach organizers, for example, and ask that they hand over all site traffic data

obviously they would try to say no, just like MS would try to say no

of course they could

but MS would have a legal obligation to do so (and indeed to collect them afaiu)

there's no reason an entity would have a greater legal obligation for the same activity than an individual

yes they would. as they are bound by different legal frameworks

one is simple criminal law (an individual), one is whatever the equivalent business law in the US

that gives businesses more protections, not less...

because of the limited liability

so I guess sure, there's potentially lower individual consequences for saying "no" if we're an entity

no. as directors you will have MORE legal liability

not compared to if we were doing it individually

in aspects of national security?

I don't picture myself having greater liability running a website as one of several directors compared to it literally just being me running it

i think you will find you will be prosecuted under two different legal frameworks

i don't know US law at all - but i would imagine the penalities will be substantially different

it totally depends on the case, but back to the core of the argument, there still is no major difference at the end of the day if you're assuming the US gov is asking for someone to conduct forced mass surveillance or whatever

as a LLC in the US you will probably already have a legal obligation to surveil

like dumb thought, but how do you all know rehrar doesn't work for the NSA right now

especially if you host a forum

wasn't that something that passed recently?

i am pretty sure it did

midipoet: that's a concern with the services offered, not about it being offered under a company

sgp_: would it matter? he isn't committing or approving code :P

neither am I :D

I'm just saying I don't see a disclaimer being proposed that the MCW is led by a US resident

because that would be a stupid disclaimer

sgp_: there are a few questions i posed above. it would be cool if you could try and answer them. if not, don't worry about it

I got lost sorry. Are these the ones about MS or about community orgs in general?

community orgs in general

well, community workgroups in general

> so what happens if that starts becoming the defacto?

ie workgroups all LLCs

seeking to bill for what they build (one assumes in the pursuit of profit)

I don't really see that being an issue. Workgroups being an LLC, their other actions unchanged, wouldn't change things much in my opinion

oh I think you took my statements on "bill" incorrectly

so for profit entities should seek community funding through the CCS system?

ie. Monero Research Lab should be an LLC that seeks funding/donations?

no, I don't think they need to, and I've been pretty clear that MS does not want to rely on the CCS for its funding

I've covered nearly all funding up to this point

so some workgroups should be LLCs that seek profit/revenue in their own revenue streams.

but if the MRL wanted to open an account on an exchange, having an entity to hold some operating funds wouldn't be insane imo

midipoet: workgroups can raise money in many different ways. Some may use the CCS, some may use other methods. I don't see one as good and the other as bad

obviously the CCS can only be used for things that Core thinks is reasonably worthy, after receiving feedback

?

so if a dumb workgroup tried asking for money for something stupid, we would say no

i thought the community decided on what goes to CCS?

maybe i am wrong

well community provides feedback to Core

Core ultimately "decides"

I never had the ability to merge anything with the CCS for example

ok. well, if all workgroups were to becomes companies, i would be pretty saddened if i am honest. perhaps that is naive or ignorant, but that is how i feel.

i also question whether "companies" should be seeking funding from the community - but understand the tax implications that may occur if they don't have that option

the incentive for tax compliance, is of course - very strong.

companies have sought funding before, for example with the konferenco and the monero swaps proposal

yes

and the quantum computer research

yes

that is true

like I said, this isn't something we plan to do with MS

all those entities were pretty open about themselves being an LLC, as far as i remember

and of course, they weren't "official" workgroups.

but perhaps that is a silly distinction admittedly.

<sgp_ "the US gov could try to contact "> This is why we limit what our site stores

yeah that's a good practice

you do that better than us but we want to get there

<xmrhaelan[m] "This is why we limit what our si"> It would be ideal to use a decentralized system and have each instance under the control of people in different countries

I know that can be hard to so, but something to look into

also Iranians love their children too

for the Pleroma instance, scott has been working with a swiss hosting company

<Mumuks[m] "I know that can be hard to so, b"> We are working toward serverless if I’m not mistaken.

<xmrhaelan[m] "We are working toward serverless"> Amazing

<ComplyLast "also Iranians love their childre"> A bit too much sometimes...

lol

xmrhaelan[m]: what like the Sia Skynet?

Monero Outreach, not available exclusively on Freenet

*now

Haha it’s above my wheelhouse. Thunderosa has mentioned that as the goal. Our goal is to make ourselves irrelevant and replaceable, while the project could still live on.

IPFS

For static content at least.

So here’s my take on the LLC thing, for what it’s worth. The desire to legitimize certain aspects of what the Monero community does is reasonable and IMO a sign of maturity in a grassroots, open-source, decentralized project. It should be supported so long as goodwill has been demonstrated by its organizers (which I think is the case here).

On the other hand, we have die-hard contributors in our midst who are hyper vigilant and are trying to safeguard the project from perceived social/ geopolitical/ espionage related risks. I appreciate the hell out of them because they keep us honest and on our toes. This is a conversation that needs to happen in order for the project to keep growing. It is understandable that it can get tense, but we need to

remember this is a highly adversarial environment and in this case, we are on the same team.

For someone like Justin, I imagine being able to start a business to support something he is passionate about is a dream come true. It would be disheartening to see that initiative met with such ferocity. And it’s important he understands that ferocity exists out of a deep desire to protect Monero.

All of this can be true at the same time. It’s important we consider where people are coming from and do our best to find a way to compromise and find consensus is these matters. I respect all of those involved here and trust they can find a solution if they keep their egos out of it. Monero is bigger than any one of us.

Well said, xmrhaelan .

I for one do not really understand the goals of Monero Space and would be happy to learn more

from the admittedly little I can find it seems like it very much could have been established as a non-profit so I'm curious why it wasn't

from what I understand reducing personal legal and tax liability, as well as having a corporate entity control assets to avoid the hit-by-a-bus effect

a non-profit is also a corporate entity

a non-profit can be an LLC, it just requires time and approval from the federal government

and filing costs, etc

yeah I'm admittedly not v familiar with all that

there are different levels / classifications of non-profits

Nonprofits are a pain in the ass. LLC is way easier.

I can understand that. maybe there are other things that could be done to mitigate concerns about for-profit status, not sure what off the top of my head, except like I said I would be interested to learn more about the purpose of Monero Space. Maybe some sort of charter or statement of purpose. I haven't been able to find anything like that.

nothing at all against sgp, just that if an entity is being created i further Monero I fele like it should reflect the values of the community in some concrete way

the goals of the organization and the reasons for its formation can be found here: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i8hbr8…nity_workgroup_is_preparing_for_the

seems kind of silly to try and talk about "the community" and its "values" as if a loose knit group of nerds on the internet are some monolithic body

sillier than arguing about how sgp and co want to manage their affairs

I like your style jwinterm

a long-term option is to register a nonprofit with the IRS, but there's no tax incentive to at the moment since we're just burning money anyway

<jwinterm> loose nit but still knit, presumably by something. the community definitely has values. like, just for example, decentralization.

thanks xmrhaelan[m] :P

Lyza that is true. I’ve noticed it can be difficult to see consensus on certain values though

Lyza, I don't really even agree that decentralization is a value necessarily, but how is "the community" forcing its will onto people and how they conduct their business decentralized

seems pretty centralized to me

I for one am not forcing anyone to do anything

I am simply talking about ways to possibly alleviate concerns that have been expressed

at this point the whole argument seems to boil down to whether or not Monero Space should have a tiny LLC under it's logo on the workspace page of getmonero?

Let’s let the folks on GitHub sort out the LLC labeling issue. If you want to raise a concern do it there. That’s where it matters anyway.

which presumably the final decision will be made in a completely centralized manner by the person controlling getmonero anyway

luigi1111: please do not merge monero-project/monero-site #1383

see

lol

read the discussion above

I figured this would be fun

I am going to tune out for the holidays. Catch you all on the other side.

o/

wow that reddit post is 63% upvoted

so many downvotes certainly seems to speak to a split in the community

I know luigi1111w, I'm having lots of fun here :/

I'm reading this announcement thread and I'm wondering why something so obviously contentious would continue to be pushed

you're kinda late to the party Lyza

jwinterm> which presumably the final decision will be made in a completely centralized manner by the person controlling getmonero anyway <= nonsense, I am a hive mind

there are a *lot* of highly upvoted objections here

Lyza: are you referring to the Reddit thread? That was in relation to the original plans to formalize the MCW more which were abandoned

reddit - the pinnacle of decentralized consensus

I am referring to the reddit thread which I was given as an explanation for the purpose of Monero Space, yes

luigi1111w, should just charge 10 xmr per month for listing whatever workgroup you want on getmonero

if that's no longer what was happening then I guess the thread isn't relevant but that leads me back to not really understanding the purpose

ok but don't announce it publicly geesh

I bid 11 XMR to have the premium first slot

screw it lets have an auction

I think most of the purpose is the same Lyza just the name was altered

luigi1111w: free market knows best

you got it

.luigi

midipoet: it is not one pseudonym one vote here.

rehrar: what is it then?

Some votes are worth more than others?

To avoid mob rule?

I think you have told me this before though, to be fair.

Yes. There is reputation and accumulated trust taken into heavy account.

A random Nick I've never seen gets pretty much no say.

Who in their right mind would implement one pseudonym is one vote on a platform like IRC?