00:06:25 <sgp_> welcome accelerate_capit!
00:07:19 <sgp_> we don't have a huge set of running tasks per se, but there are always things that we need help with
00:08:47 <sgp_> for example, we Monero Space is looking for someone to do a weekly trading show, but that's a pretty big commitment
00:11:33 <accelerate_capit> Hi sgp_ - that makes sense. Is there a way to stay in the loop on those tasks as they come up? Would I just need to frequent this chat or is there another way?
00:11:58 <accelerate_capit> also what is Monero Space?
00:12:00 <sgp_> accelerate_capit: best way is to frequent this chat and #monero-space imo
00:12:10 <sgp_> Monero Space is another workgroup that tries to be more project-focused
00:12:47 <sgp_> https://www.getmonero.org/community/team/
00:13:42 <accelerate_capit> Ok cool - will do. I'm curious what this weekly trading show is?
00:14:29 <sgp_> we don't really have a Monero-focused trading show at the moment, but there's a pretty large community in r/xmrtrader on Reddit. The point would be to do short recap videos focused around news and trading to support that community
00:14:47 <sgp_> needmoney90 is a mod there and he would be a great person to talk to about that
00:16:52 <sgp_> so maybe a good starting point would be to review the most recent discussions there to see what the community is like
00:17:35 <accelerate_capit> Ok will do - thanks so much for the welcome and starting suggestions! If I have learned anything so far, it is that the Monero community is very welcoming.
00:17:51 <sgp_> we also have a general need for a more news-y show that doesn't talk about trading much
00:18:04 <sgp_> hhaa yeah, like I said, a lot to do and it's really what you make of it :)
00:18:21 <sgp_> it's always easiest when people contribute in ways they enjoy
03:32:33 <thunderosa__> Samsung, when do you disclose the Monero Space is your private company? I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.
03:33:51 <thunderosa__> Do your say it or do other people?
03:37:05 <thunderosa__> I know there are typos,..it's been a long day,...but please answer the question this time.
04:15:00 <sgp_> thunderosa__: Monero Space is a workgroup, and it doesn't take an agreement with MS to join a chat hosted by another company (Freenode)
04:20:11 <thunderosa__> That's not what I asked.
04:20:12 <sgp_> I know you see yourself as a defender against tyranny of sorts, but really you're just putting people off who really just want to get more involved and do good, like everyone else here should be doing
04:20:59 <sgp_> I find no need to say "Monero Space LLC" in regular conversation, there
04:20:59 <thunderosa__> No, you've misjudged and dodged in one motion.
04:21:15 <thunderosa__> When does he find out?
04:21:23 <sgp_> whenever they want, it's not a secret
04:22:08 <thunderosa__> It's kinda a secret and you just went through lengths to try to keep it a secret. I'm confused I guess.
04:22:13 <sgp_> we have a company whose purpose is to be billed for the cool stuff we build, whoa
04:22:38 <sgp_> jesus to what extent do I go through lengths to keep it a secret
04:22:56 <sgp_> am I murdering people in their sleep
04:23:20 <sgp_> or do I talk openly about it when you keep asking/spamming about it endlessly in every related thing we do
04:24:30 <thunderosa__> I keep asking because you decline to answer.
04:24:44 <sgp_> I decline to answer whether Monero Space LLC is a company?
04:25:03 <sgp_> https://wyobiz.wyo.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=148182127005251116092123125219038058020252005207
04:25:06 <thunderosa__> No, that you merely try to subdue
04:25:34 <sgp_> I think you have unrealistic expectations
04:25:50 <sgp_> you wouldn't be happy if we renamed the workgroup to Monero Space LLC
04:26:12 <thunderosa__> That was mostly what I was asking.
04:26:38 <nioc> I wonder where Monero Outreach gets it's money from
04:26:40 <sgp_> that makes no sense, I was originally known as my nickname sgp_, not my SSN
04:26:44 <thunderosa__> for-profit would be nice,..I understand that to be your chosen status
04:27:11 <sgp_> lol, "for-profit" = "I have spent thousands of my own money this year"
04:27:25 <thunderosa__> yep,..same here
04:27:38 <sgp_> so what's the difference?
04:28:00 <sgp_> I'm merely billing the relevant expenses as business expenses
04:29:05 <thunderosa__> I'm actually completely fine with you having your company. I really am. It bothers me when that might come as surprise to people.
04:29:32 <sgp_> there's no difference. the only people who would freak out are those who have no understanding of how organizations work
04:29:35 <thunderosa__> In the whole LLC thing on getmonero,...I just wanted clear labeling
04:29:49 <sgp_> it's dumb fear-mongering
04:29:55 <thunderosa__> Be whatever,..do whatever,....but be open about it
04:30:07 <sgp_> it's like me warning against all usernames who begin with the username "t" *might* be malicious
04:30:22 <sgp_> like sure that's possible, but it's a useless thing to say
04:30:37 <thunderosa__> You were right that the "T" thing was a stupid example.
04:30:55 <thunderosa__> It's immaterial at least.
04:30:56 <sgp_> glad we're on the same page, now just look at your actions from an outsider's view
04:31:34 <thunderosa__> I do,...I check myself constantly.
04:33:07 <sgp_> okay, just please leave us alone
04:33:32 <thunderosa__> Who's us?
04:34:20 <sgp_> well, me especially, but don't hate on everything related to Monero Space. The volunteers make a lot of good stuff
04:34:35 <sgp_> and getting caught on these quarrels is just a waste of everyone's time
04:35:02 <thunderosa__> I agree there.
04:36:07 <thunderosa__> Be a company, do what you want,....but be upfront. That's it.
04:36:37 <sgp_> maybe set some clear expectations about what you exactly would be happy with so people can see just how high of a bar you have
04:37:22 <thunderosa__> I have a pretty high bar it's true. This is Monero,...high bars are expected.
04:38:17 <thunderosa__> I don't want to express the bare minimum,...I'd like you to exceed the bare minimum and change the fucking world.
04:38:32 <sgp_> wow so productive, it was so obvious all along
04:38:49 <sgp_> my apologies for not wanting to improve the world from the start
04:39:05 <thunderosa__> take it how you'd like. That's what I'm about,..doing better than before.
04:39:17 <dgoddard> I could have sworn I saw an announcement, maybe on the YT channel.
04:39:59 <dgoddard> Several weeks ago... right?
04:40:03 <thunderosa__> There was also a very quiet Reddit announcement after the whole monero-community thing.
04:40:44 <thunderosa__> Saying it once and being done with it isn't quite right though.
04:41:17 <sgp_> why don't you share your full name in every post for transparency's sake? because that would be a dumb expectation
04:41:53 <thunderosa__> Because I do not want personal attention on me,..I want the work to be worthwhile or not. I'm not you.
04:41:57 <sgp_> but for all I know you work for the NSA
04:42:02 <thunderosa__> sure
04:42:17 <sgp_> so maybe chill that we're open about who we are and where we're registered
04:42:48 <thunderosa__> But you can look at my track record and see that I've never led a visitor into the 5 eyes knowingly.
04:43:41 <thunderosa__> The effort is to keep getting tighter,...smaller,..more secure. That's what makes me lose sleep.
04:44:24 <dgoddard> TBH, I don't see the issue. I've formed LLCs. never thought of it as a nefarious act.
04:44:25 <thunderosa__> More decentralized,...not more.
04:45:32 <thunderosa__> I've setup dozens of LLC's,..it's not a problem with the instrument. Sometimes it's right.....but this use case doesn't add up
04:45:59 <thunderosa__> Alot because it's Monero,..and the bar IS high.
04:46:09 <thunderosa__> Should be high.
04:46:39 <thunderosa__> Justin could have done this in a way that I might be able to support.
04:47:40 <thunderosa__> But I need alot more honesty to trust,.....and Justin will agree that we've bumped heads a few times on the visitors right to privacy,...or at least trying.
04:48:06 <thunderosa__> I think it's worth trying.
04:49:55 <thunderosa__> Like if we talk about financial privacy all day,...but don't work on how that's happening.....I am black and white on this. How could you look those folks in the eye?
04:50:35 <nioc> You must be kidding right?
04:50:52 <thunderosa__> I don't mean to be kidding.
04:51:01 <thunderosa__> What have I missed?
04:51:36 <nioc> To me it seems tjat you are going overboard with this
04:52:57 <nioc> Seems that there is more here than your "simple" request
04:52:57 <thunderosa__> I'd agree that I'm advocating for higher,...I don't know if it's overboard. I know this tastes like metal.
04:54:57 <thunderosa__> I've had a few run-ins with Justin,....I'm not hanging on to that though. But where it comes to visitors and contributors and their right to know,...I do get passionate. I guess I feel like if we're not taking that serious then we've lost the plot.
05:05:45 <sgp_> perhaps perfection is the enemy is great
05:09:08 <thunderosa__> Good enough is the enemy of great. Good luck!
05:09:53 <thunderosa__> Perfection is the enemy of good.
05:13:41 <thunderosa__> Justin, I just want to make this clear. I like what you do. Really. But I don't like how you do it. I've got no grudges,...no vendettas. I just think you could be more honest then you have been. I'm sure you've got a come back...you can type it if you want. But until I see a different pattern from you, that's where I'm at.
05:13:41 <thunderosa__> I'm rooting for you,...I want you to succeed.....this is Monero.
05:17:37 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Not how I was hoping to jump back in on the matterbridge.... thanks for fixing it though! (Pigeons?)
05:19:59 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Thunderosa and SGP are both passionate about protecting peoples privacy and freedom. They both have very different means to that end. Let’s keep our eyes on the prize and not get too hung up on our perceived differences....please....
05:22:04 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> As grandpa said, “There are many ways to skin a cat.” We don’t have to always agree on how we do things as long as we can trust we are working toward a common goal. I haven’t seen any reason to believe I can’t trust either of you to be working toward what you believe
05:22:23 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> ...to be the best thing for Monero
05:25:45 <sgp_> I know it's easy to armchair this, but really I see the solution as quite clear: allow Monero Space to do its own thing without interrupting and making a fuss every two seconds
05:28:29 <thunderosa__> Label it.
05:28:59 <thunderosa__> Chin up.
05:37:41 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> I must have missed something. You guys are taking this too far.
05:48:16 <thunderosa__> No,..it's the same as all the other stuff from the past few weeks....probably just as a nexus here. I said what I meant,...I suppose that Justin did too. I do not know where it goes from here, but I do want to make it clear again that do like what Justin does, just not how he chooses to do it. I'd be a goddamn kitten otherwise.
07:46:11 <needmoney90> The request to put 'llc' next to every instance of our name solely because we use a legal tool to aggregate payments for tax purposes is a ridiculous request.
08:32:32 <midipoet> > we have a company whose purpose is to be billed for the cool stuff we build
08:32:43 <midipoet> ^ that does say a lot though, to be fair.
08:33:14 <midipoet> > I wonder where Monero Outreach gets it's money from
08:33:33 <midipoet> nioc: also a fair question
08:34:17 <midipoet> > the only people who would freak out are those who have no understanding of how organizations work
08:34:32 <midipoet> sgp_:  ^ i really do not think this is true.
08:35:37 <midipoet> > I could have sworn I saw an announcement, maybe on the YT channel.
08:36:31 <midipoet> dgoddard: there was also a pledge to publish the company by-laws, including information about the board and profit distribution (when/if it makes profit)
09:15:10 <Toophoned> How much is preserving e-penis of your leaders worth? A month of work? Three moneths of work? A year of work? 2.8 bil?
09:15:11 <Toophoned> Come to https://t.me/monero_peace Telegram, if you are not afraid of getting excommunicated.
09:15:14 <Toophoned> jess: ^^
09:20:08 <Mumuks[m]> Wtf, the propaganda is getting petty
09:43:37 <needmoney90> Getting?
09:52:14 <midipoet> i would not advise petting e-penises
11:01:45 <rbrunner> I have not yet given up hope that people can agree to some sort of compromise regarding that "LLC" story
11:02:02 <rbrunner> Monero Space would be completely free where to mention that, or not mention that
11:02:25 <rbrunner> Monero Space would also not get excluded anywhere from getting mentioned / listed because of this
11:03:09 <rbrunner> But in exactly one place, where Monero Space is introduced in sort of an "official way", on the GetMonero.org group page
11:03:43 <rbrunner> there would be not a warning, not a disclaimer, but a simple stating of fact, in a short sentence, that this is an LLC incorporated in the US
11:04:31 <rbrunner> so all fundamentalists, people who have a grudge against anything US, people from US-sanctioned countries like Iran get informed and can stay clear if they so wish
11:05:35 <rbrunner> and everybody else is not molested, confused, etc., but can happily interact with Monero Space
13:51:10 <sgp_> I don't understand why people assume that the scope of US involvement doesn't impact individuals...
13:51:24 <sgp_> Again, the company destination is completely arbitrary
13:51:37 <sgp_> And I'm tired of saying this over and over
14:34:00 <thunderosa__> @needsmoney - Most companies display their status in their materials. Often it's small text, but it's not hidden.
14:34:00 <thunderosa__> @nioc - Most MO funding has come from the community and so we're answerable to the community.
14:57:42 <sgp_> ^ that doesn't make sense. If I opened a CCS up for Monero Space for 1 XMR, suddenly it's all good? Is that what you're saying?
14:58:15 <sgp_> because I'm happy to do that if that's all it takes
14:59:04 <thunderosa__> No, you're conflating the hell out of my answer.
14:59:36 <thunderosa__> But go ahead if you'd like.
15:07:41 <p3rL> .c 150*10
15:07:41 <monerobux> p3rL: 1,500
15:07:59 <xmrhaelan[m]> +100 for rbrunner comment
15:08:25 <xmrhaelan[m]> -1 for the constant bickering
15:08:45 <midipoet> xmrhaelan[m]: it's one person, one vote here. make some alts if you need ;-)
15:09:10 <midipoet> shit, i mean one pseudonym, one vote
15:10:40 <midipoet> to be fair though - this sort of comment is what (i think) makes people (me at least) question the LLC structure for Monero Space "we have a company whose purpose is to be billed for the cool stuff we build"
15:11:29 <midipoet> it can, of course, be called "fundamentalist" to not agree with that ethos
15:11:47 <midipoet> but it's not necessary, imo
15:12:10 <midipoet> and indeed could even be seen as an underhanded attempt to draw comparisons to more nefarious ideologies
15:12:39 <Lyza> I'm failing to understand the perceived problem here honestly
15:14:41 <midipoet> there were a number of concerns raised initially
15:14:53 <midipoet> my own was concerning the self-appointed board
15:15:19 <midipoet> and the pursuit of profit by a "community workgroup"
15:15:51 <midipoet> and the fact that the LLC was said to going to have by-laws to ensure it didn't become something akin to the ECC debacle
15:16:16 <midipoet> the three above are just my own opinion
15:16:19 <midipoet> feel free to ignore
15:17:15 <sgp_> my take is that these are perceived concerns, and if they ever become real ones, then add disclaimers. But that would be necessary because the workgroup would then be generally acting in bad faith, and would have nothing to do with whether it has a supporting company or not
15:17:46 <sgp_> but "this person might eventually be a bad actor" can apply to literally anything
15:18:23 <midipoet> sure. but it sets precedent for how a workgroup "may" look
15:18:29 <midipoet> does it not?
15:18:44 <midipoet> so what happens if that starts becoming the defacto?
15:18:49 <sgp_> I don't think the Monero website should dictate these things
15:18:49 <midipoet> would that be a good thing?
15:18:58 <midipoet> sorry?
15:19:03 <midipoet> that's not what i getting at
15:19:10 <midipoet> the website has nothing to do with this
15:19:27 <midipoet> it's about my perceived concerns about how work groups should be organised
15:19:40 <sgp_> this is why the website is relevant https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/1383
15:19:58 <midipoet> as legal entities or not, about profit pursuing or not, about hierarchies, or not.
15:20:11 <midipoet> sgp_: i am not discussing a pull request
15:20:16 <midipoet> i am discussing my own concerns
15:20:52 <sgp_> I'm confused, is this a general thought exercise about community organizations in general or something you are asking of Monero Space
15:21:17 <midipoet> i was responding to a question posed by Lyza
15:21:21 <sgp_> ah
15:21:28 <sgp_> well obviously I can't speak for what other workgroups do
15:21:32 <midipoet> no
15:21:43 <xmrhaelan[m]> Sgp honest question.. what’s the worst that could happen by having a small print disclaimer the workgroup is an LLC?
15:21:47 <midipoet> but you can place in context what Monero Space might mean for future workgroups
15:22:14 <midipoet> and you can also place in context of whether Monero Space sets some form of precedent for workgroups
15:22:19 <sgp_> xmrhaelan[m]: I'm worried that the ill-informed will just use it to cause conflict
15:22:34 <sgp_> there's no justifiable reason for the statement there in my opinion
15:22:37 <midipoet> what does ill-informed mean?
15:22:41 <midipoet> a newcomer?
15:23:19 <xmrhaelan[m]> Sgp what about the reasons rbrunner stated? “so all fundamentalists, people who have a grudge against anything US, people from US-sanctioned countries like Iran get informed and can stay clear if they so wish”
15:23:20 <sgp_> in this case, I mostly mean those who improperly assign risks to the distinction
15:23:43 <sgp_> xmrhaelan[m]: the MCW is run by rehrar who is a US resident...
15:24:44 <xmrhaelan[m]> Anyone could assume leadership though, an individual is different than a legal entity
15:25:03 <sgp_> no see that's where your perception is inaccurate
15:25:21 <xmrhaelan[m]> How so?
15:25:22 <sgp_> an individual is a legal entity
15:25:41 <sgp_> an individual is a "sole proprietorship"
15:26:19 <xmrhaelan[m]> Only if they register as such with the government to do business
15:26:32 <sgp_> not true, you're still personally liable for everything you do
15:26:49 <sgp_> the fear of the US government reaching out to an entity or individual is the same in both cases
15:27:07 <sgp_> people perceive them to be different but they are NOT
15:27:30 <midipoet> sgp_: that only applies if rehrar is running MCW as a business
15:27:36 <midipoet> is he?
15:27:55 <sgp_> not only "businesses" can be contacted by the government
15:28:23 <midipoet> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/soleproprietorship.asp
15:28:34 <midipoet> this seems to suggest that it is a business
15:28:56 <sgp_> the US gov could try to contact Outreach organizers, for example, and ask that they hand over all site traffic data
15:29:12 <sgp_> obviously they would try to say no, just like MS would try to say no
15:29:34 <midipoet> of course they could
15:29:54 <midipoet> but MS would have a legal obligation to do so (and indeed to collect them afaiu)
15:30:21 <sgp_> there's no reason an entity would have a greater legal obligation for the same activity than an individual
15:30:40 <midipoet> yes they would. as they are bound by different legal frameworks
15:31:04 <midipoet> one is simple criminal law (an individual), one is whatever the equivalent business law in the US
15:31:30 <sgp_> that gives businesses more protections, not less...
15:31:35 <sgp_> because of the limited liability
15:31:59 <sgp_> so I guess sure, there's potentially lower individual consequences for saying "no" if we're an entity
15:32:22 <midipoet> no. as directors you will have MORE legal liability
15:32:36 <sgp_> not compared to if we were doing it individually
15:32:46 <midipoet> in aspects of national security?
15:33:41 <sgp_> I don't picture myself having greater liability running a website as one of several directors compared to it literally just being me running it
15:34:43 <midipoet> i think you will find you will be prosecuted under two different legal frameworks
15:35:16 <midipoet> i don't know US law at all - but i would imagine the penalities will be substantially different
15:35:47 <sgp_> it totally depends on the case, but back to the core of the argument, there still is no major difference at the end of the day if you're assuming the US gov is asking for someone to conduct forced mass surveillance or whatever
15:36:19 <midipoet> as a LLC in the US you will probably already have a legal obligation to surveil
15:36:29 <sgp_> like dumb thought, but how do you all know rehrar doesn't work for the NSA right now
15:36:30 <midipoet> especially if you host a forum
15:36:43 <midipoet> wasn't that something that passed recently?
15:36:48 <midipoet> i am pretty sure it did
15:36:57 <sgp_> midipoet: that's a concern with the services offered, not about it being offered under a company
15:37:15 <Inge-> sgp_: would it matter? he isn't committing or approving code :P
15:37:24 <sgp_> neither am I :D
15:38:04 <sgp_> I'm just saying I don't see a disclaimer being proposed that the MCW is led by a US resident
15:38:19 <sgp_> because that would be a stupid disclaimer
15:41:01 <midipoet> sgp_: there are a few questions i posed above. it would be cool if you could try and answer them. if not, don't worry about it
15:41:26 <sgp_> I got lost sorry. Are these the ones about MS or about community orgs in general?
15:41:39 <midipoet> community orgs in general
15:41:53 <midipoet> well, community workgroups in general
15:42:21 <midipoet> > so what happens if that starts becoming the defacto?
15:42:29 <midipoet> ie workgroups all LLCs
15:42:56 <midipoet> seeking to bill for what they build (one assumes in the pursuit of profit)
15:43:07 <sgp_> I don't really see that being an issue. Workgroups being an LLC, their other actions unchanged, wouldn't change things much in my opinion
15:43:28 <sgp_> oh I think you took my statements on "bill" incorrectly
15:43:41 <midipoet> so for profit entities should seek community funding through the CCS system?
15:44:01 <midipoet> ie. Monero Research Lab should be an LLC that seeks funding/donations?
15:44:14 <sgp_> no, I don't think they need to, and I've been pretty clear that MS does not want to rely on the CCS for its funding
15:44:21 <sgp_> I've covered nearly all funding up to this point
15:45:04 <midipoet> so some workgroups should be LLCs that seek profit/revenue in their own revenue streams.
15:45:12 <sgp_> but if the MRL wanted to open an account on an exchange, having an entity to hold some operating funds wouldn't be insane imo
15:45:55 <sgp_> midipoet: workgroups can raise money in many different ways. Some may use the CCS, some may use other methods. I don't see one as good and the other as bad
15:46:22 <sgp_> obviously the CCS can only be used for things that Core thinks is reasonably worthy, after receiving feedback
15:46:44 <midipoet> ?
15:46:50 <sgp_> so if a dumb workgroup tried asking for money for something stupid, we would say no
15:47:01 <midipoet> i thought the community decided on what goes to CCS?
15:47:13 <midipoet> maybe i am wrong
15:47:13 <sgp_> well community provides feedback to Core
15:47:20 <sgp_> Core ultimately "decides"
15:47:43 <sgp_> I never had the ability to merge anything with the CCS for example
15:50:30 <midipoet> ok. well, if all workgroups were to becomes companies, i would be pretty saddened if i am honest. perhaps that is naive or ignorant, but that is how i feel.
15:51:25 <midipoet> i also question whether "companies" should be seeking funding from the community - but understand the tax implications that may occur if they don't have that option
15:51:52 <midipoet> the incentive for tax compliance, is of course - very strong.
15:53:38 <sgp_> companies have sought funding before, for example with the konferenco and the monero swaps proposal
15:53:56 <midipoet> yes
15:53:57 <sgp_> and the quantum computer research
15:54:02 <midipoet> yes
15:54:13 <midipoet> that is true
15:54:40 <sgp_> like I said, this isn't something we plan to do with MS
15:55:53 <midipoet> all those entities were pretty open about themselves being an LLC, as far as i remember
15:56:09 <midipoet> and of course, they weren't "official" workgroups.
15:56:18 <midipoet> but perhaps that is a silly distinction admittedly.
15:57:26 <xmrhaelan[m]> <sgp_ "the US gov could try to contact "> This is why we limit what our site stores
15:57:50 <sgp_> yeah that's a good practice
15:57:59 <sgp_> you do that better than us but we want to get there
16:04:54 <Mumuks[m]> <xmrhaelan[m] "This is why we limit what our si"> It would be ideal to use a decentralized system and have each instance under the control of people in different countries
16:04:59 <Mumuks[m]> I know that can be hard to so, but something to look into
16:06:11 <ComplyLast> also Iranians love their children too
16:07:37 <sgp_> for the Pleroma instance, scott has been working with a swiss hosting company
16:07:59 <xmrhaelan[m]> <Mumuks[m] "I know that can be hard to so, b"> We are working toward serverless if I’m not mistaken.
16:08:20 <Mumuks[m]> <xmrhaelan[m] "We are working toward serverless"> Amazing
16:08:37 <Mumuks[m]> <ComplyLast "also Iranians love their childre"> A bit too much sometimes...
16:10:13 <ComplyLast> lol
16:11:00 <sgp_> xmrhaelan[m]: what like the Sia Skynet?
16:11:12 <sgp_> Monero Outreach, not available exclusively on Freenet
16:11:15 <sgp_> *now
16:12:13 <xmrhaelan[m]> Haha it’s above my wheelhouse. Thunderosa has mentioned that as the goal. Our goal is to make ourselves irrelevant and replaceable, while the project could still live on.
16:13:32 <thunderosa__> IPFS
16:14:20 <thunderosa__> For static content at least.
16:25:47 <xmrhaelan[m]> So here’s my take on the LLC thing, for what it’s worth. The desire to legitimize certain aspects of what the Monero community does is reasonable and IMO a sign of maturity in a grassroots, open-source, decentralized project. It should be supported so long as goodwill has been demonstrated by its organizers (which I think is the case here).
16:26:04 <xmrhaelan[m]> On the other hand, we have die-hard contributors in our midst who are hyper vigilant and are trying to safeguard the project from perceived social/ geopolitical/ espionage related risks. I appreciate the hell out of them because they keep us honest and on our toes. This is a conversation that needs to happen in order for the project to keep growing. It is understandable that it can get tense, but we need to
16:26:05 <xmrhaelan[m]> remember this is a highly adversarial environment and in this case, we are on the same team.
16:26:20 <xmrhaelan[m]> For someone like Justin, I imagine being able to start a business to support something he is passionate about is a dream come true. It would be disheartening to see that initiative met with such ferocity. And it’s important he understands that ferocity exists out of a deep desire to protect Monero.
16:26:24 <xmrhaelan[m]> All of this can be true at the same time. It’s important we consider where people are coming from and do our best to find a way to compromise and find consensus is these matters. I respect all of those involved here and trust they can find a solution if they keep their egos out of it. Monero is bigger than any one of us.
16:29:42 <sethsimmons> Well said, xmrhaelan .
16:31:44 <Lyza> I for one do not really understand the goals of Monero Space and would be happy to learn more
16:32:52 <Lyza> from the admittedly little I can find it seems like it very much could have been established as a non-profit so I'm curious why it wasn't
16:34:44 <jwinterm> from what I understand reducing personal legal and tax liability, as well as having a corporate entity control assets to avoid the hit-by-a-bus effect
16:35:14 <Lyza> a non-profit is also a corporate entity
16:35:56 <jwinterm> a non-profit can be an LLC, it just requires time and approval from the federal government
16:36:08 <jwinterm> and filing costs, etc
16:36:34 <Lyza> yeah I'm admittedly not v familiar with all that
16:47:35 <nioc> there are different levels / classifications of non-profits
16:56:49 <xmrhaelan[m]> Nonprofits are a pain in the ass. LLC is way easier.
16:59:15 <Lyza> I can understand that. maybe there are other things that could be done to mitigate concerns about for-profit status, not sure what off the top of my head, except like I said I would be interested to learn more about the purpose of Monero Space. Maybe some sort of charter or statement of purpose. I haven't been able to find anything like that.
16:59:54 <Lyza> nothing at all against sgp, just that if an entity is being created i further Monero I fele like it should reflect the values of the community in some concrete way
17:04:32 <jwinterm> the goals of the organization and the reasons for its formation can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i8hbr8/monero_community_workgroup_is_preparing_for_the/
17:04:33 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Monero Community Workgroup is preparing for the large growth ahead (self.Monero) | 24 points (65.0%) | 97 comments | Posted by SamsungGalaxyPlayer | Created at 2020-08-12 - 16:52:06
17:05:06 <jwinterm> seems kind of silly to try and talk about "the community" and its "values" as if a loose knit group of nerds on the internet are some monolithic body
17:05:22 <jwinterm> sillier than arguing about how sgp and co want to manage their affairs
17:17:23 <xmrhaelan[m]> I like your style jwinterm
17:17:26 <sgp_> a long-term option is to register a nonprofit with the IRS, but there's no tax incentive to at the moment since we're just burning money anyway
17:18:55 <Lyza> <jwinterm> loose nit but still knit, presumably by something. the community definitely has values. like, just for example, decentralization.
17:20:03 <jwinterm> thanks xmrhaelan[m] :P
17:20:43 <xmrhaelan[m]> Lyza that is true. I’ve noticed it can be difficult to see consensus on certain values though
17:20:49 <jwinterm> Lyza, I don't really even agree that decentralization is a value necessarily, but how is "the community" forcing its will onto people and how they conduct their business decentralized
17:21:03 <jwinterm> seems pretty centralized to me
17:21:04 <Lyza> I for one am not forcing anyone to do anything
17:21:23 <Lyza> I am simply talking about ways to possibly alleviate concerns that have been expressed
17:22:27 <jwinterm> at this point the whole argument seems to boil down to whether or not Monero Space should have a tiny LLC under it's logo on the workspace page of getmonero?
17:22:28 <xmrhaelan[m]> Let’s let the folks on GitHub sort out the LLC labeling issue. If you want to raise a concern do it there. That’s where it matters anyway.
17:22:55 <jwinterm> which presumably the final decision will be made in a completely centralized manner by the person controlling getmonero anyway
17:22:57 <sgp_> luigi1111: please do not merge https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/1383
17:23:05 <jwinterm> see
17:23:06 <jwinterm> lol
17:23:07 <sgp_> read the discussion above
17:24:51 <luigi1111w> I figured this would be fun
17:25:02 <xmrhaelan[m]> I am going to tune out for the holidays. Catch you all on the other side.
17:25:12 <jwinterm> o/
17:25:30 <Lyza> wow that reddit post is 63% upvoted
17:25:41 <Lyza> so many downvotes certainly seems to speak to a split in the community
17:26:13 <sgp_> I know luigi1111w, I'm having lots of fun here :/
17:27:41 <Lyza> I'm reading this announcement thread and I'm wondering why something so obviously contentious would continue to be pushed
17:27:42 <jwinterm> you're kinda late to the party Lyza
17:27:44 <luigi1111w> jwinterm> which presumably the final decision will be made in a completely centralized manner by the person controlling getmonero anyway <= nonsense, I am a hive mind
17:27:52 <Lyza> there are a *lot* of highly upvoted objections here
17:29:05 <sgp_> Lyza: are you referring to the Reddit thread? That was in relation to the original plans to formalize the MCW more which were abandoned
17:29:21 <jwinterm> reddit - the pinnacle of decentralized consensus
17:29:50 <Lyza> I am referring to the reddit thread which I was given as an explanation for the purpose of Monero Space, yes
17:29:52 <jwinterm> luigi1111w, should just charge 10 xmr per month for listing whatever workgroup you want on getmonero
17:30:26 <Lyza> if that's no longer what was happening then I guess the thread isn't relevant but that leads me back to not really understanding the purpose
17:30:32 <luigi1111w> ok but don't announce it publicly geesh
17:30:49 <sgp_> I bid 11 XMR to have the premium first slot
17:31:09 <luigi1111w> screw it lets have an auction
17:31:14 <jwinterm> I think most of the purpose is the same Lyza just the name was altered
17:31:25 <sgp_> luigi1111w: free market knows best
17:32:17 <luigi1111w> you got it
18:28:19 <nioc> .luigi
18:28:19 <monerobux> 🍄 luigi is doing. mario is not doing luigi is doing 🍄
18:33:10 <rehrar> midipoet: it is not one pseudonym one vote here.
18:59:05 <midipoet> rehrar: what is it then?
18:59:19 <midipoet> Some votes are worth more than others?
18:59:30 <midipoet> To avoid mob rule?
18:59:42 <midipoet> I think you have told me this before though, to be fair.
19:01:48 <rehrar> Yes. There is reputation and accumulated trust taken into heavy account.
19:02:09 <rehrar> A random Nick I've never seen gets pretty much no say.
19:02:54 <rehrar> Who in their right mind would implement one pseudonym is one vote on a platform like IRC?