its all i have

We'll always have Paris

woo.

nice to be connected with an actual irc client and not via matrix bridge

so about a week ago when I was lurking there was some desire expressed for accounting/lobbying help.

Whats the best way for me to do that?

how so?

christnofskimn: Roughly one week ago would primarily in reference to the LLC. As such sgp_ rehrar needmoney90 are the ones to best contact

thanks scott

christnofskimn: can you make the community meeting this Saturday?

yup!

Awesome :)

I've never been to a meeting on an IRC channel before. will be interesting.

purly from an orginisational standpoint.

like, do you use rules of order? what happens when somone makes a motion?

these are the kinds of questions that keep me up at night.

There's a predetermined structure that is in a github issue

if you want to add something to the minutes, you make a comment there

moderators (me, justin, diego) moderate based on those minutes, whoever is around

There you go

Since its a "whoever is around, everyone promises to be there but things fall through" kind of thing, some parts of the schedule will be skipped when no representative is present.

Make sense christnofskimn?

it does actually

I was assuming lots of people would be there all talking over each other

Fortunately not, even in situations like after the servers were hacked and a bunch of irregulars were listening in or otherwise had questions to ask

Actually people sometimes need a little extra convincing to talk haha

Depends on the topic

The idea is that we have people who want to talk, and they can organize their space ahead of time. And then when the meeting comes, there's no talking over people, because its predetermined :)

It works quite well.

xmrscott: That meeting was one of the only ones in years that I've actually had to kick someone from the room for going off-minutes, actually

idk where the logs are, but that was an interesting meeting. Some people didn't understand there was a structure to it.

In the grand of scheme of things, not 'lots of people' talking over each other

I have the logs BTW

they are somewhere in my irccloud logs, I'd have to fish them out though. I'm sure we have them recorded somewhere.

I totally spaced pasted them in the issue and putting in a site post for better accessibility

One of the things to do after Mastodon/Pleroma is up and running reasonably well

There is something to be said for the outlier cases identifying where the norms are

*googles pleoma*

pleroma*

needmoney90: It's Mastodon, but a simple stack

*simpler

+ a live chat feature

neat

However, from what I've read, still not as easy to sustain due to not having web admin dashboards like Mastodon does (still looking into which to spin)

The main thing though is that Mastodon is reasonably close to actually encrypted PM's (technically admins can see the text right now). I'm trying to find out where Pleroma is on this... it's the main deal breaker to me

Isn't that the usual case with everything that uses HTTPS?

Only those with certs can read the communications anyways

So server to browser is encrypted as is instance to instance. The PM text at rest is effectively plain text though

Best way to swap ETH to XMR ? suggestions?

Morphtoken for direct

Or can go ETH>BTC>XMR on lots of exchanges

Would like some privacy

Like TradeOgre for no KYC

Or could do Bisq for Eth>BTC>XMR

IIRC

👌

Morph looks pretty nice

I've liked it in the past, for sure

Sometimes exchange rates can be slightly worse than a normal exchange

Is there a stick fee they have?

But normally they're within range and worth it for ease of use

I see. thanks for the info brother

np! Glad to have more people moving into Monero 🙂

👊 Orwell was right, more and more are realizing it ^

No kidding, Monero is such an awesome tool to help prevent the "boot stamping on a face" future

One of the few true tools we have at this point

Indeed. With the mesh networks coming we will be unstoppable

Can't wait for Locha and others to launch

Have been following them closely

Same :D gona set up a bunch of nodes covering my local area

Just waiting for XMR payment to be available and il make my orders

They take XMR if you email them: `If you want to pay with Monero, other cryptocurrency, or have a question you can send us an email. `

Oh! missed that! Thanks!

What is the difference between Locha and other mesh networks in the past?

What frequencies do they want to use?

`ISM band (915 MHz in America, 868 MHz EU),`

<sethsimmons "locha.io"> I've bookmarked the webpage, I was looking for a quick explanation

Ah, sorry :) I'm not an expert in the radio side of things, so I'm not sure how it really compares, just have seen their demos and like the concept so far

Those are interesting frequencies, using 2.4Gh makes the range more challenging

Plus they've been very intentional with Monero support, which is always a plus.

I guess I'll have to check if those frequencies are available here

The thought is to have range not speed. Messaging and transactions do not require speed

monerod: I see, so it is not meant to be a full internet like system, just for small messages

That's actually an interesting way of getting people started into mesh networks

You can always deploy 2.4gh networks later once people have interest

<Mumuks[m] "monerod: I see, so it is not mea"> yeah, That we will be able to be anywhere, without a internet connection but connected to the meshnetwork messaging and transacting money

I like the idea

It will will be quite revolutionary

And after a while the hardware should even fall in price more so it will be quite accesible

Yeah, its a much more approachable/feasible network than most IMO

Since you need far less users for it to be functional, as range is higher

Great for p2p networks :)

They should look into making matrix work on it too

<Mumuks[m] "And after a while the hardware s"> Also open source . hardware and software. So anyone can start creating them as cheap as possible

And I'm dreaming here but some sort of small adaptor for the phone would make it really cool

<monerod[m] "Also open source . hardware and "> Nice

<Mumuks[m] "And I'm dreaming here but some s"> Yeah ;D In the beginning we just have to have one of them in the backpocket or backpack, Just like a extra powerbank with superpowers :D

sethsimmons: do you have a Telegram? Got another request for an AMA

Yes, @sethsimmons

Hopefully this person doesn't quit 4 hours later lol

LMAO

"anotha one"

lol, droppin like flies

AMA regarding what ? if i may ask? :)

Monero, I assume :)

Ah cool :) Where will it be held?

some Indonesia community I have never heard of on Teegram

oh ok! nice!

Would be great to get Monero some more exposure in Indonesia, lots of need there IMO

And I have quite a few random connections to Indonesia so I'm excited for that

<monerod[m] "Yeah ;D In the beginning we jus"> Yeah, but just having a low power connection in the mobile would be cool. No need for it to act as a mesh node since it is a battery device. If it catches on someone should look into it

Ah true. With enough nodes spread out only a low power receiver would do!

And or we want to send info also. But yeah ;D Sounds like it should be put in the pipliine

So weird seeing the daemon gain sentience

<xmrscott[m] "So weird seeing the daemon gain "> :D " I am the blockchain"

whats the "failed to find tx meta" error about (using 16.0.3 CLI)?

you can ignore it

ok. but what's it about?

afaik it’s a bug but harmless

selsta: who wants my meta. tell me now.

;-)

monero hacked!!111

ah well

better luck next time, i suppose

Interested to see what Reddit thinks about the ideas brought forward :)

Ooh! Finally a self hosted forum for Monero! <3

Yeah, Flarum should be good, I'm honestly hopeful we can migrate mostly off of Reddit to that, but that will be tricky for sure.

Time for all those who go on about Reddit to show their true colors I suppose

SerHack: we already had a forum, it just got killed with spam :'(

Wait really?

I never knew that lol

There was a pilot of Discourse as well about a year or so ago

sethsimmons: yeah, the thing the forum funding system was attached to :D. i don't remember it being particularly active outside the ffs though

TIl

Correct. It was just FFS and medications

Mainly the latter, sadly

asymprorically: yes, I remember that. Full of spam threads, there was no administration.

(Apart from FFS threads)

fund some of mooo's development time and get some viagra on the same site. sweet!

monero only forum means no fresh blood wandering in

the old forum did not have that much activity even b4 there was spam

granted the community is larger now but the dynamics are the same

there's no coin specific forum with any meaningful traction

SerHack: I need to put your sysadmin skills to work hahahaha

only one way to find out :)

bitcointalk doesn't count

as it's not coin specific and other reasons

fun fact: the name of the LLC was originally rCryptoCurrency LLC since I thought earlier this year about maybe making a general forum

that idea largely fell by the wayside

.rip in peace the rcryptocurrency forum

is `Monero Community Support LLC` the selected name now?

yes, officially. We wanted to make entirely sure that it provides support

I think worth noting that the forum I don't thinks is intended to be super popular, just a FOSS forum that is independent of Reddit for Monero related news, etc

xmrscott[m]: I, for one, when making the Revuo, would rather link to a forum post than a Reddit one.

Too much Reddit. I don't want to give them traffic.

Announcements can be made on the Flarum or something, and then Reddit can link to it.

I think multiple people gave feedback to not include "Monero Community" to avoid confusion :/

Would it be great if it highly used? Sure. Over the years tho people have asked for something not subject to Reddit, and this gives those people that, however small their number may be

selsta: you don't think the 'Support' at the end avoids confusion that it's not the Monero Community, but rather an entity that supports the Monero Community?

It does not avoid confusion because it is not clear to an outsider that "Monero Community" is a workgroup.

Still obviously better than `Monero Community LLC`

hi I have a problem and need support from the monero community

I have already turned it off and on again

you can return within the next 14 days

it*

<SerHack> convos.chat asymprorically: yes, I remember that. Full of spam threads, there was no administration.

I'm not sure why we got rid of it, a forum without moderation is exactly what a lot of people are yelling for us to implement

🙄

lol too many viagra ads

Free speech, man

this 'absorption of assets' thing is really the most mind blowing to me

The biggest asset absorbed is the youtube, I guess.

Most of the 'absorbed assets' are justin saying 'I have a bunch of accounts and dont want to be the only controller'

theres like, nothing coming from me

or planned things. Like a Jitsi.

But if people don't want to use the MCW jitsi, they can spin up their own. And no, it wouldn't 'fracture' the community to have multiple jitsi's

Flarum's yes. I can see that.

That requires moderation

Which im open to someone spinning up their own and wanting to moderate it

needmoney90: dude, you're so right that people default to 'you could have done even more work for free, and that you didn't is honestly disgusting'

I'm learning to say no :/

needmoney90: why didn't you put in the effort to start a non-profit needmoney90?

hey you're all welcome to hang out on the wownero forum. it needs filling up with viagra spam and memes

Why didn't you hire the specialist to ensure you comply with the non-profit stipulations?

needmoney90: did you put literally ANY effort into starting a coop?

[ ] Time

[ ] Money

[ ] All of the above

pick one

needmoney90: did you actually spend a single iota of time developing an alternative infrastructure for which payments and moderation can be done?

needmoney90: why does it burn when i pee? how do i cancel amazon prime?

needmoney90: no, don't throw this back at me and ask what I've done. I won't spin one up. Harumph.

Asymptotically: Sorry, I should have told you I tested positive before that night..

rehrar: That comment about people expecting me to increase my workload/costs just hit controversial status \o/

I havent had a controversial comment in ages

you aren't pulling a theymos until you spend £10,000,000 of community funds paying to develop a forum that will never happen :D

lmao

Unrelated, anyone want a new community forum?

42MLgzJpCcH2wUbRFdnCusG3zXfxsrHi9CRePzo3t3qJi1RHJ4UyMq8A3Duh2Yt2YsKeC3mDEYQDEbfN71PvD9MnFmQqGJN

taking donations

needLLC90

niocbrrrrrr: ooooooh that's good

!tip needmoney90 2

.seen tippero

2019?

big F in chat

I miss 2019

RIP tippero

I miss 2017

if we're going to reminisce, at least pick a good year

someone tipped my 0.1 XMR I think on Reddit back in 2015. never claimed it. RIP

I was just going back far enough to wen it was safe to hug pony

we can strongarm the dev sgp_

its not like its lost

also needmoney90 conned me out of like $15 for the tracing challenge. f***ing exist scammers amirite

That's quite the claim. Evidence?

scammers all the way down

too bad I can't prove payment in Monero! /s

If monero is so private how come I know how much money im receiving

checkmate

lmao

matrix is having issues it seems

matrix sux

agree

:'(

Matrix is great and I've had 0 issues so far

Ok but fr, regarding proving payments via the wallet in Monero.

other than their client being a bit quirky

It's kinda stupid. It only works if the wallet is on the same computer, no?

Like if you take the wallet to a different computer, it won't work.

Eh gads no, 2017 was a terrible year, the year of the ICO and things like DentalCoin

sethsimmons: I wish they got an actual UX designer when they were redoing their client.

<rehrar "It's kinda stupid. It only works"> Yeah, this is one of the biggest quirks/issues with Monero FWIW

<rehrar "sethsimmons: I wish they got an "> Seriously lol, its not amazing, but it works and is MUCH better/more portable than IRC IMO

As an overall chat product

Would there be privacy concerns with simplifying backup/restore of proof of spends?

IRCCloud is....meh

There are no good IRC solutions.

Why not allow backups that can be restored by using the wallet's own private key?

Exactlly why I switched to Matrix

And can't use Isabella stickers so it's a net fail.

Lets you share it anywhere you like

This should be native IMO

and portable between wallet implementations

Its VERY frustrating not being able to tell where/who I sent payments to across wallets

If we can make a portable file that *Requires* the private key to access

Since I switch between Cake and GUI quite frequently

I think that fixes most of the issues

sethsimmons: i want to run my own home server again. I did it for a month or so before quitting in rage.

it lets it be portable with as much risk as you usually have (private key exposure)

threat model is unchanged

<rehrar "sethsimmons: i want to run my ow"> IRC or Matrix? I haven't tried, but should...

share your wallet cache between devices?

Matrix

or does that now work?

not*

That doesn't work AFAIK

selsta: I'm thinking a formalized way of sharing the cache

even if its "possible" to do manually

sethsimmons: why not?

How can I keep them up to date between devices?

dropbox?

If I'm frequently switching?

That seems a PITA

And doesnt help with mobile/3rd party wallets

I was thinking we can add the potential for an endpoint in settings

Question, why does it require this cache? Is there no way to generate a cryptographic proof of spend just with the info stored on the blockchain?

So you can sync from anywhere and generate a proof?

Otherwise it's kind of a useless thing if it's just in the reference client and just when you're using the correct computer/wallet combo.

Honestly, at that point, we should remove the feature.

It's taking up space, and it's counting on literally nobody else making useful wallet implementations for it to be useful.

In other words, the feature necessitates a lack of ecosystem growth.

which feature?

Proving

Or some way to restore/bind cache to seed, but thats probably impossible

What if we just out everything on the blockchain?

Or even better. A new blockchain. MetaCash

I would assume thats either not possible or a privacy risk

All Monero metadata can be out there.

I cant imagine it hasn't been considered

Put

sethsimmons: Cant be impossible

Miners mine the minings to get MetaCash and spend using mint/spend technology. Doing so triggers a smart contract for blockchain 4.0 oracles that will decentralize the DeFi interfaces.

Not impossible, that is a bad word choice

But likely either very difficult or very costly

Using zero knowledge proofs, of course.

I dont think it would be costly. I can actually kinda see the UX

two new import options, from file, and sync (two-way)

you can hook it up to some endpoint like an external service

every [day, week, whatever is determined sufficient granularity for privacy] your black box is uploaded

or synced

you dont need to worry about the person on the other end being secure either

because its encrypted with the private key

the black box will only work with it's corresponding wallet. Some sort of three-way merge can be done if theres a merge conflict (that stuff is known algos though, so nbd)

That would be amazing

proposed in -dev

we'll see what they say

thanks

what about SpendProofV1?

Can we also work on adoption of OpenAlias?

Do I need to start a business that allows people to spin up an OpenAlias real quick for accepting? I know that's been tried a few times in the past, no?

I do like OA

Super nice

openalias uses the DNS system which is centralized, we really should be trying to migrate to IPv6 only

🙄

lmao

what does oa have to do with ipv6? shouldn't it still just werk?

ipv6 dont get me started

im trolling

ignore me

<selsta "monero.stackexchange.com"> That has some of the features needed but lacks the full functionality of being able to restore wallet cache

Since you can't just see within the wallet the spend details

Selsta I don't want to prove I had access to a wallet that sent a tx.

You have to basically spam addresses etc to figure out where you sent it

I want a proof that a tx was sent and for how much and to who.

my isp just threw out their last ipv4 only equipment (because they stopped working, not because ipv4 only...) so maybe i'll be able to get globally routable addresses for my fridge and toaster soon :D

Much more valuable.

Yeah, exactly rehrar

What if we made Monero a ipv6 only technology?

Would be great to have full portability of that history across machines/wallets

sethsimmons: I'd rather it be removed from cache entirely. If we could find a way to make it so that a proof can be generated by what's on the blockchain that'd be epic.

Then any wallet could do it.

well yeah, just not sure thats feasible

just upload the proof to the community workgroup's owncloud server

lmao

I would only be interested in hosting that stuff if it was encrypted with the PK

but if so, I wouldn't have issues using our servers to host that stuff for people

as long as I can throw up my hands when the feds come knocking and have nothing to give them, I'm set

that's something lightwallets can implement IMO

afaik mymonero proposed something like this

but cli / gui getting some functionality to sync wallet cache with a server sounds unlikely

This seems like a pretty big need TBH, its one of the biggest points of friction compared to other blockchains like Bitcoin IMO

Or at least has been for me to date

It's really weird to restore a wallet and then have no idea where I sent things

It's very counter-intuitive to every other wallet/normal financial service

well bitcoin also doesn’t have privacy :P

Can we get someone to just volunteer to run the Flarum plz?

Its like if you logged into your bank/credit-card site and could only see amounts, not any other information about payments made.

Can we just get people to volunteer to run all this shit

That, to me, seems to be the only asset that is controversial in terms of splitting the community.

<selsta "well bitcoin also doesn’t have p"> Touche :P But if we can fix this point of friction thats one less thing users need to deal with to use Monero

rehrar: Would we be moderating the flarum?

Or would it be new people

If its us moderating we're back at square one

As in, if new LLC makes it, and then people make their own in protest, it would double the amount of forums you need to go to to be fully informed.

If it could be supported by CCS I could run the Flarum

why not just do it for free

lol

I could depending on server costs

That was tongue in cheek

Yeah I know

Like Jitsi? No. Nextcloud. Nope. Doesn't split if someone starts their own. Sandstorm? Nope.

But I seriously could if costs weren't crazy, but not sure what to expect for load

Basically all of this asset absorption stuff is bullshit except for the forum idea.

what kind of rules would this forum have anyways

Monero Community Twitter? Nope. There's already several Monero Twitter related accounts.

A new person trying to moderate would be stepping into a minefield lol

so many political views

What else is claimed assets?

All of which are taboo for a lot of the die-hards in Monero

Obviously you three have been doing the vast majority of the work on the "assets and services" that will be brought under the LLC, so Idk why its such a big deal

And if people have a serious issue, they should bring up a counter-proposal that clearly states the way it will move us forward

heck, thunderosa openly stated that the existence of a 'code of conduct' (our rules) means they won't even read the rules to see if they're reasonable, and because of the existence of those rules, wont come into the channel

The legal entity only has control of easily replicated resources though.

How do you reason with someone who thinks rules shouldnt exist

It has legal responsibilities only to these resources.

You're proposing formalization and hierarchy to a bunch of anarchists :P

anarchy rules!

It was never going to go well with the vocal minority

Eh hierarchy is a bad word for this

Breaking Monero and other stuff is released CC.

but you get the point

Anyways, I gotta run

Best of luck dealing with the fallout my dudes

So anyone can take and upload to a federated dealio.

Ye. I'm just vocally going through the assets.

asymptotically: rules of anarchy

External processinh I guess.

Processing

anarchy has rules

old man yells at cloud

I guess Mastadon also would be a splitting thing.

You know, if anyone used it.

alsi IrcCloud is just fine

🇧🇩🇦🇸🇦🇶🇦🇷🇦🇱

needmoney90: we get those types all the time for r/cc. "why is there any moderation"

a: because it would be a terrible place without

thats just your opinion

why dont you stop moderating and find out

just let me and my 50 alt accounts post about iota in peace!

only 50? n00b

jwinterm is the worst mod, just ask the nano community

agree

you should have seen it around holidays 2017. I was sitting around my family banning people as quickly as I could on my phone while (unsuccessfully) not trying not to be rude

remove the first "not"

evidence we shouldnt give sgp more power

self admittedly ban-happy *and* rude

:D

your words not mine

Yeah, it helps to remember that these are the people who would respond with a yes when asked whether we should "just stop moderating then".

And then another 4chan is born and people leave cuz not everyone wants to be a 4chan nerd.

these?

Selsta yes, I mean you specifically. Calling you out here.

You will not be satisfied until the entire internet is anarchy.

<needmoney90 "heck, thunderosa openly stated t"> Which to me is ironic as hell. Like, guess I better stop my contributions to the Linux kernel because the Linux Foundation has a CoC. Or GNOME, or KDE for also having their own CoC's

me too

we'll tear down cloudflare server by server!

Moderation is oppression.

I think all major religious figures were anarchists.

Read the subtext.

idk what selsta did other than dislike the name

I'm joking about selsta obviously.

He's a gem. A treasure that must be protected and if anyone disagrees I'll fight them.

<rehrar "You know, if anyone used it."> TBH, while it would be nice if someone used it my main reason for creating it was it looks bad (to me at least) to be a cypherpunk type project and not have a presence in the Fediverse. So if no one uses it fine, I'll still be trying to build out Monero awareness in the fediverse

xmrscott[m]: I completely agree.

.ogre yes selsta is a gem

That and, TMK BTC doesn't really have an official unoffical handle in the fediverse, so there's an opportunity to gain turf and overthrow surveillance coin adoption

first step is transitioning the existing Nextcloud and Sandstorm servers that I have to better ones

I'd like to have the sysadmin task force involved right away so we don't need to transition things again

I hate how formal that sounds

can we just call them people

sysadmin people

twitter people

its so much less formal

I thought task force sounded cool but we don't need to use it

it has the same burden on the word that committee does

Day four of internet issues.

FTC complaint maybe?

I did that once and my internet magically improved despite them claiming they never changed anything

dont worry rehrar they'll just give you a credit

They probably won't even do that needmoney90

I would go to someone else's house to work, but I have contractors here. :P

FWIW, I don't really care much, but 'Task Force' typically refers to post incident investigation teams, at least at the places I've worked

At the end of the day, it's really up to whoever is doing the work to call themselves whatever they want IMO

xmrscott[m]: nice questions on Reddit

it's good that people have high standards, but these definitely aren't being met right now. at least now we can start addressing them easier

Yeah, to me it comes across as the enemy of good is perfect, or similar line of thinking

Would it be great to have the Ring Size encompass all tx? Absolutely. Is the tech there yet? Should we wait until that problem is solved before creating a genesis block?

xmrscott[m]: your questions are good ones.

Do you guys remember monero.how?

knaccc sold that off and couldn't disclose to who.

Yep, even chatted abet very briefly with the new owner

Ugh.

Asset custody is something I thought a decent amount circa 2018 to the point of cringingly drawing up stuff and thinking myself similar to Batman ala Justice League: Doom.

I wrote an article for monero.how, forgot about that :)

lol binaryFate :p twitter.com/binaryFate/status/1293676455474475014