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hyc
that's probably a major non-political reason why BTC will never go full privacy
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xmrpow
sethsimmons: Oh crap thats a lot of disk space.
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sethsimmons
No kidding 😅
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xmrpow
Back to decred: Are these guys rly trying to make that feature available for other chains? Im asking, because I think this is one of their selling points.
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sethsimmons
As a whole project, not really ATM
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sethsimmons
But there’s a subset of the community that sees it as a key selling point/way to empower the whole space with things they’ve handled well in the past
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sethsimmons
I wouldn’t be surprised to see them pivot overall once the DEX is out to something similar to Aragon, but obviously without the reliance on Ethereum
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xmrpow
The pos pow hybrid is quite cool as well.
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xmrpow
But if I remeber correctly pos is not possible with xmr.
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xmrpow
?
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xmrpow
Sometimes it is so sad that we cant slam all these great technologies together ;)
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xmrpow
What do you guys think about coinshuffle++?
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xmrpow
Unfortunatley they dont have privacy by default :(
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sethsimmons
AFAIK PoS is technically possible, but pretty frowned upon in this community.
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sethsimmons
I think their hybrid is pretty fascinating and gives balance to both PoW and PoS, while making sure PoS gets diluted heavily.
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xmrpow
In the case of decred it does make sense.
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sethsimmons
I too would like to see them go to privacy by default, but they at least have far better mixing adoption than BTC already
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xmrpow
Decred sound like some better btc at the moment ;)
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xmrpow
In my opinion btc currently just exists because of network effects and first mover advantage.
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niocbrrrrrr
AIUI PoS reduces privacy in Monero
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niocbrrrrrr
PoS is also broken
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xmrpow
What do you mean by broken ?
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xmrpow
I agree that pure pos does have a ton of unsolved problems.
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xmrpow
But I think in combination with pow it is worth a shot.
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niocbrrrrrr
somewhere in my 10k nook,arks I have an article that explains :)
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niocbrrrrrr
bookmarks*
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xmrpow
You mean like nothing at stake and so on?
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niocbrrrrrr
the way the system can be gamed
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xmrpow
But I think that does not work with pow pos hybrid.
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xmrpow
because pow is mitigating the risks of pos
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niocbrrrrrr
and what are the real benefits of pos in a hybrid system?
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niocbrrrrrr
disclaimer: I am a potato whose strengths are in knowing who to follow
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xmrpow
decred.org/security I think this is quite a good explenation.
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xmrpow
The point is that you need stake and 51% of pow power to attack the system.
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xmrpow
That is more expensive than just 51% attacking.
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xmrpow
Although they would be much better of with switching to randomx ;)
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xmrpow
hyc: Could you imagine that bigger coins like btc are switching to randomx in the future?
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hyc
no
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hyc
btc is ossified. nothing fundamental about it will change
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xmrpow
I do sometimes think this space is much too young for getting ossified.
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hyc
certainly it is
-
hyc
but btc isn't going to change its mining algo
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hyc
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monerobux
[REDDIT] Litecoin has entered shadowmining era. (self.Buttcoin) | 34 points (90.0%) | 41 comments | Posted by Cthulhooo | Created at 2020-07-25 - 12:10:59
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sethsimmons
Not surprising at all, TBH
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hyc
yep. inevitable
-
hyc
not the open commoditized utopia people fantasize about
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sethsimmons
But muh skin in the game ASICs
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Inge-
Today's Corona trivia: dramatic fall in premature births
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gingeropolous
"<sethsimmons> But muh skin in the game ASICs" lol
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needmoney90
Can we have a discussion about our current tolerance in our 'official' forums of people suggesting using VPNs to circumvent geoblocking?
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needmoney90
The subreddit mod team generally tries to keep the subreddit clearly on the defensible side of the line, when it comes to recommending breaking the law
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needmoney90
Which means we dont allow linking to DNMs, discussing vendors, etc.
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needmoney90
That part of the policy has been fairly uncontroversial (I say 'fairly' because there's always someone)
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xmrscott[m]
Yes
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needmoney90
Where does 'This site is illegal to use as a US citizen' -> 'just use a VPN' fall on the legal defensibility line?
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xmrscott[m]
Enabling illicit activity is frowned upon because could lead to action against individuals and perhaps more imoortantly be used to ban the sub itself
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needmoney90
yep
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xmrscott[m]
There's always Dread sub if people want to talk about that stuff
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needmoney90
Well in this case its something that's less obviously controversial
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needmoney90
which is recommending using VPNs to circumvent geoblocks
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needmoney90
its a *very* common recommendation on the subreddit, and over time I've been starting to wonder exactly how defensible that is
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needmoney90
for our official forums, at least. Obviously the use of VPNs wont go away and it's implicit in a lot of discussions.
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xmrscott[m]
But yes, I have no issue banning illict activity comments. VPN circumventing I thought is fairly common knowledge
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needmoney90
Its common knowledge, but recommending breaking the law
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needmoney90
which is where I'm starting to feel uncomfortable
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xmrscott[m]
I remember using proxies in 5th ish grade in the 90s to circumvent stuff, ergo not divine knowledge that people can only get via the sib
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needmoney90
'Use a fake ID if youre underage' would be a similar recommendation that I would be uncomfortable with
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needmoney90
using a VPN to bypass a geoblock, or recommending it, is possibly legally questionable
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xmrscott[m]
tldr I have no problem banning circumvention posts
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needmoney90
OK. I'll be having this discussion more over the next week or two, I would appreciate some more opinions
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xmrscott[m]
Well it's encouraging illegal activity. That service is only authorized for X countries. You are causing them to break the law by breaking the law yourself
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needmoney90
It could be defensible to recommend VPNs for preserving privacy, and also denouncing their use in the sidebar saying 'Recommending using VPNs for circumventing geoblocks isn't allowed wink'
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needmoney90
Need to be careful not to chill legitimate vpn speech
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niocbrrrrrr
Is it against the law to use a VPN to circumvent a geoblock?
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needmoney90
Big question mark
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needmoney90
Probably depends on the activity
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needmoney90
Some things likely would only violate TOS, others (where the block is instituted for legal reasons) possibly actually illegal
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needmoney90
But I'm not a lawyer
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needmoney90
I'm just a mod who wants to keep this ship running and free risk minimized
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needmoney90
s/free/the
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monerobux
needmoney90 meant to say: I'm just a mod who wants to keep this ship running and the risk minimized
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needmoney90
46BSZ3iLvLKbycj3ycun2SEupLMxh9UaM4YjN5pHDmKtJ4W8RMZTPGbeHn1bNwq17TGwcrdyRJLoLbfmS2h9CG3q4HNcp5Z
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needmoney90
Oops
-
needmoney90
Stackexchange says that usually it's a civil matter, but the US has brought some judgements against it using the CFAA as justification
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needmoney90
Unauthorized access to a computer
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needmoney90
So, not illegal unless someone wants to throw the book at you
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needmoney90
Which doesn't make me any more comfortable, since the goal is to avoid getting the book thrown at us :/
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niocbrrrrrr
"equal justice under the law"
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niocbrrrrrr
I know, I'm very helpful lol
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needmoney90
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.” - Anatole France
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xmrscott[m]
"niocbrrrrrr" (
matrix.to/#/@freenode_niocbrrrrrr:matrix.org): Pretty sure, yes. Exchanges, etc need certain licenses to financially service certain geos.
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sethsimmons
I’m definitely all for stopping people from recommending illicit things (or close to illicit things) like VPN circumvention on Reddit
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xmrscott[m]
It probably only becomes possible to trace rule breakers if they're using a KYC service tho
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sethsimmons
It’s not the place for that, and puts the whole sub at risk.
-
sethsimmons
People can google if they want to find alternate reach ability methods 🙂
-
dEBRUYNE
needmoney90: Having money involved makes the matter more delicate though
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dEBRUYNE
Using a VPN to circumvent a geoblock on your favorite netflix show is way different than using it to access a service that exchanges cryptocurrency
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needmoney90
It does.
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needmoney90
Not a lawyer, obviously.
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needmoney90
This conversation has to be had at some point
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bemore_
VPNs are a protection of human rights in some countries. However, we've already agreed that Monero is agnostic to social issues, no?
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needmoney90
As I mentioned, >Need to be careful not to chill legitimate vpn speech
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bemore_
legitamacy is defined by local laws
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needmoney90
there's a line between recommending people use VPNs for privacy/human rights reasons, and actively recommending circumvention of the law.
-
needmoney90
Which is the line under discussion right now
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bemore_
which region's law?
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jwinterm
it's not really against any law, is it?
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jwinterm
it's not illegal for USA people to use the service afaiu
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needmoney90
According to SE, the US has thrown the jurisdictional book at a few cases with the CFAA as justification
-
needmoney90
because it's unauthorized access
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jwinterm
and it's not illegal for xmr.to to provide service to USA people, only attempt to reasonably restrict access, no?
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needmoney90
This is where things get dodgy.
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jwinterm
if it was against the law in any meaningful way then wouldn't you have seen some agency go after bitmex and others already?
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needmoney90
They don't recommend using a VPN afaik
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jwinterm
plenty of random users do tho
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needmoney90
yes, but its not an 'official' stance
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needmoney90
on their subreddit do people recommend it?
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needmoney90
Or is it removed
-
needmoney90
I would imagine they don't let people say 'oh yeah just do this' on their outlets
-
needmoney90
but maybe I'm ignorant
-
jwinterm
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cassact[m]1
<jwinterm "if it was against the law in any"> this is actually a pretty important thing to consider. There are many *many* laws on the books in the usa which are not actually enforced. Something is only really as illegal as it is enforced.
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jwinterm
that was more or less my point cassact[m]1
-
cassact[m]1
Cool, just wanted to re emphesis it I guess. Because there really are a shit ton of laws/rules in the united states, and trying to follow them all is a fools errand.
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bemore_
maybe there should be another -community inbetween dread and -core. Something legal, but not strictly focused on the technology behind privacy.
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jwinterm
Unless you're at a gathering that's received proper approval, it's illegal in New York to be "masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration."
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jwinterm
If you're caught using a reptile in a religious service in Kentucky, you could face a fine of more than $50.
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jwinterm
In Delaware, it's illegal for a pawnbroker to "take or receive as a pledge or pawn any artificial limb or wheelchair."
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jwinterm
ok I"m done
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bemore_
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monerobux
[WIKIPEDIA] Snake handling in religion | "Snake handling, also called serpent handling, as a religious rite is observed in a small number of isolated churches, mostly in the United States, usually characterized as rural and part of the Holiness movement. The practice began in the early 20th century in Appalachia and plays only a small part in..."
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bemore_
Southern history is fun
-
jwinterm
also extremely disturbing
-
jwinterm
but I guess some fun also
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xmrscott[m]
A fine of more than $50 is less of a punishment than say, a sub ban tho
-
xmrscott[m]
We currently don't have a Flarum or Plerom a instance based out of Switzerland or whatever. If we had a plan b sns option one could argue for more linient moderation