00:00:23 <hyc> that's probably a major non-political reason why BTC will never go full privacy
00:28:08 <xmrpow> sethsimmons: Oh crap thats a lot of disk space.
00:35:00 <sethsimmons> No kidding 😅
00:39:47 <xmrpow> Back to decred: Are these guys rly trying to make that feature available for other chains? Im asking, because I think this is one of their selling points.
00:40:08 <sethsimmons> As a whole project, not really ATM
00:40:35 <sethsimmons> But there’s a subset of the community that sees it as a key selling point/way to empower the whole space with things they’ve handled well in the past
00:42:43 <sethsimmons> I wouldn’t be surprised to see them pivot overall once the DEX is out to something similar to Aragon, but obviously without the reliance on Ethereum
00:43:11 <xmrpow> The pos pow hybrid is quite cool as well.
00:44:42 <xmrpow> But if I remeber correctly pos is not possible with xmr.
00:44:49 <xmrpow> ?
00:46:34 <xmrpow> Sometimes it is so sad that we cant slam all these great technologies together ;)
00:48:26 <xmrpow> What do you guys think about coinshuffle++?
00:49:03 <xmrpow> Unfortunatley they dont have privacy by default :(
00:49:21 <sethsimmons> AFAIK PoS is technically possible, but pretty frowned upon in this community.
00:50:14 <sethsimmons> I think their hybrid is pretty fascinating and gives balance to both PoW and PoS, while making sure PoS gets diluted heavily.
00:50:21 <xmrpow> In the case of decred it does make sense.
00:50:47 <sethsimmons> I too would like to see them go to privacy by default, but they at least have far better mixing adoption than BTC already
00:51:24 <xmrpow> Decred sound like some better btc at the moment ;)
00:52:04 <xmrpow> In my opinion btc currently just exists because of network effects and first mover advantage.
00:54:28 <niocbrrrrrr> AIUI PoS reduces privacy in Monero
00:54:37 <niocbrrrrrr> PoS is also broken
00:54:55 <xmrpow> What do you mean by broken ?
00:55:26 <xmrpow> I agree that pure pos does have a ton of unsolved problems.
00:55:39 <xmrpow> But I think in combination with pow it is worth a shot.
00:55:42 <niocbrrrrrr> somewhere in my 10k nook,arks I have an article that explains :)
00:55:59 <niocbrrrrrr> bookmarks*
00:56:39 <xmrpow> You mean like nothing at stake and so on?
00:57:17 <niocbrrrrrr> the way the system can be gamed
00:57:49 <xmrpow> But I think that does not work with pow pos hybrid.
00:58:17 <xmrpow> because pow is mitigating the risks of pos
00:58:56 <niocbrrrrrr> and what are the real benefits of pos in a hybrid system?
01:00:00 <niocbrrrrrr> disclaimer: I am a potato whose strengths are in knowing who to follow
01:01:08 <xmrpow> https://decred.org/security/ I think this is quite a good explenation.
01:01:42 <xmrpow> The point is that you need stake and 51% of pow power to attack the system.
01:02:04 <xmrpow> That is more expensive than just 51% attacking.
01:04:50 <xmrpow> Although they would be much better of with switching to randomx ;)
01:06:00 <xmrpow> hyc: Could you imagine that bigger coins like btc are switching to randomx in the future?
01:27:53 <hyc> no
01:28:43 <hyc> btc is ossified. nothing fundamental about it will change
01:30:20 <xmrpow> I do sometimes think this space is much too young for getting ossified.
02:12:47 <hyc> certainly it is
02:12:58 <hyc> but btc isn't going to change its mining algo
02:13:31 <hyc> looks like litecoin is dead https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/hxlpnk/litecoin_has_entered_shadowmining_era/
02:13:31 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Litecoin has entered shadowmining era. (self.Buttcoin) | 34 points (90.0%) | 41 comments | Posted by Cthulhooo | Created at 2020-07-25 - 12:10:59
02:15:40 <sethsimmons> Not surprising at all, TBH
02:16:37 <hyc> yep. inevitable
02:16:59 <hyc> not the open commoditized utopia people fantasize about
02:17:19 <sethsimmons> But muh skin in the game ASICs
08:14:07 <Inge-> Today's Corona trivia: dramatic fall in premature births
11:21:48 <gingeropolous> "<sethsimmons> But muh skin in the game ASICs" lol
19:34:53 <needmoney90> Can we have a discussion about our current tolerance in our 'official' forums of people suggesting using VPNs to circumvent geoblocking?
19:35:35 <needmoney90> The subreddit mod team generally tries to keep the subreddit clearly on the defensible side of the line, when it comes to recommending breaking the law
19:36:14 <needmoney90> Which means we dont allow linking to DNMs, discussing vendors, etc.
19:36:33 <needmoney90> That part of the policy has been fairly uncontroversial (I say 'fairly' because there's always someone)
19:37:09 <xmrscott[m]> Yes
19:37:40 <needmoney90> Where does 'This site is illegal to use as a US citizen' -> 'just use a VPN' fall on the legal defensibility line?
19:38:00 <xmrscott[m]> Enabling illicit activity is frowned upon because could lead to action against individuals and perhaps more imoortantly be used to ban the sub itself
19:38:07 <needmoney90> yep
19:38:39 <xmrscott[m]> There's always Dread sub if people want to talk about that stuff
19:39:06 <needmoney90> Well in this case its something that's less obviously controversial
19:39:17 <needmoney90> which is recommending using VPNs to circumvent geoblocks
19:39:38 <needmoney90> its a *very* common recommendation on the subreddit, and over time I've been starting to wonder exactly how defensible that is
19:39:58 <needmoney90> for our official forums, at least. Obviously the use of VPNs wont go away and it's implicit in a lot of discussions.
19:40:04 <xmrscott[m]> But yes, I have no issue banning illict activity comments. VPN circumventing I thought is fairly common knowledge
19:40:15 <needmoney90> Its common knowledge, but recommending breaking the law
19:40:23 <needmoney90> which is where I'm starting to feel uncomfortable
19:40:53 <xmrscott[m]> I remember using proxies in 5th ish grade in the 90s to circumvent stuff, ergo not divine knowledge that people can only get via the sib
19:40:57 <needmoney90> 'Use a fake ID if youre underage' would be a similar recommendation that I would be uncomfortable with
19:41:33 <needmoney90> using a VPN to bypass a geoblock, or recommending it, is possibly legally questionable
19:41:36 <xmrscott[m]> tldr I have no problem banning circumvention posts
19:42:47 <needmoney90> OK. I'll be having this discussion more over the next week or two, I would appreciate some more opinions
19:42:51 <xmrscott[m]> Well it's encouraging illegal activity. That service is only authorized for X countries. You are causing them to break the law by breaking the law yourself
19:44:22 <needmoney90> It could be defensible to recommend VPNs for preserving privacy, and also denouncing their use in the sidebar saying 'Recommending using VPNs for circumventing geoblocks isn't allowed wink'
19:45:10 <needmoney90> Need to be careful not to chill legitimate vpn speech
19:45:27 <niocbrrrrrr> Is it against the law to use a VPN to circumvent a geoblock?
19:45:56 <needmoney90> Big question mark
19:46:24 <needmoney90> Probably depends on the activity
19:46:48 <needmoney90> Some things likely would only violate TOS, others (where the block is instituted for legal reasons) possibly actually illegal
19:46:51 <needmoney90> But I'm not a lawyer
19:47:09 <needmoney90> I'm just a mod who wants to keep this ship running and free risk minimized
19:47:26 <needmoney90> s/free/the
19:47:26 <monerobux> needmoney90 meant to say: I'm just a mod who wants to keep this ship running and the risk minimized
19:53:52 <needmoney90> 46BSZ3iLvLKbycj3ycun2SEupLMxh9UaM4YjN5pHDmKtJ4W8RMZTPGbeHn1bNwq17TGwcrdyRJLoLbfmS2h9CG3q4HNcp5Z
19:53:54 <needmoney90> Oops
19:54:58 <needmoney90> Stackexchange says that usually it's a civil matter, but the US has brought some judgements against it using the CFAA as justification
19:55:04 <needmoney90> Unauthorized access to a computer
19:55:35 <needmoney90> So, not illegal unless someone wants to throw the book at you
19:55:55 <needmoney90> Which doesn't make me any more comfortable, since the goal is to avoid getting the book thrown at us :/
19:56:32 <niocbrrrrrr> "equal justice under the law"
19:57:23 <niocbrrrrrr> I know, I'm very helpful lol
19:58:17 <needmoney90> “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.” - Anatole France
21:22:37 <xmrscott[m]> "niocbrrrrrr" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_niocbrrrrrr:matrix.org): Pretty sure, yes. Exchanges, etc need certain licenses to financially service certain geos.
21:23:20 <sethsimmons> I’m definitely all for stopping people from recommending illicit things (or close to illicit things) like VPN circumvention on Reddit
21:23:26 <xmrscott[m]> It probably only becomes possible to trace rule breakers if they're using a KYC service tho
21:23:49 <sethsimmons> It’s not the place for that, and puts the whole sub at risk.
21:23:49 <sethsimmons> People can google if they want to find alternate reach ability methods 🙂
22:32:38 <dEBRUYNE> needmoney90: Having money involved makes the matter more delicate though
22:33:19 <dEBRUYNE> Using a VPN to circumvent a geoblock on your favorite netflix show is way different than using it to access a service that exchanges cryptocurrency
22:33:24 <needmoney90> It does.
22:33:45 <needmoney90> Not a lawyer, obviously.
22:35:53 <needmoney90> This conversation has to be had at some point
22:36:51 <bemore_> VPNs are a protection of human rights in some countries. However, we've already agreed that Monero is agnostic to social issues, no?
22:37:42 <needmoney90> As I mentioned, >Need to be careful not to chill legitimate vpn speech
22:38:12 <bemore_> legitamacy is defined by local laws
22:38:21 <needmoney90> there's a line between recommending people use VPNs for privacy/human rights reasons, and actively recommending circumvention of the law.
22:38:40 <needmoney90> Which is the line under discussion right now
22:38:55 <bemore_> which region's law?
22:39:05 <jwinterm> it's not really against any law, is it?
22:39:27 <jwinterm> it's not illegal for USA people to use the service afaiu
22:39:32 <needmoney90> According to SE, the US has thrown the jurisdictional book at a few cases with the CFAA as justification
22:39:37 <needmoney90> because it's unauthorized access
22:39:55 <jwinterm> and it's not illegal for xmr.to to provide service to USA people, only attempt to reasonably restrict access, no?
22:40:08 <needmoney90> This is where things get dodgy.
22:40:24 <jwinterm> if it was against the law in any meaningful way then wouldn't you have seen some agency go after bitmex and others already?
22:40:41 <needmoney90> They don't recommend using a VPN afaik
22:41:04 <jwinterm> plenty of random users do tho
22:41:11 <needmoney90> yes, but its not an 'official' stance
22:41:17 <needmoney90> on their subreddit do people recommend it?
22:41:19 <needmoney90> Or is it removed
22:41:44 <needmoney90> I would imagine they don't let people say 'oh yeah just do this' on their outlets
22:41:49 <needmoney90> but maybe I'm ignorant
22:42:00 <jwinterm> https://www.reddit.com/r/BitMEX/search?q=vpn&restrict_sr=1
22:42:55 <cassact[m]1> <jwinterm "if it was against the law in any"> this is actually a pretty important thing to consider. There are many *many* laws on the books in the usa which are not actually enforced. Something is only really as illegal as it is enforced.
22:43:10 <jwinterm> that was more or less my point cassact[m]1
22:44:35 <cassact[m]1> Cool, just wanted to re emphesis it I guess. Because there really are a shit ton of laws/rules in the united states, and trying to follow them all is a fools errand.
22:47:30 <bemore_> maybe there should be another -community inbetween dread and -core. Something legal, but not strictly focused on the technology behind privacy.
22:50:19 <jwinterm> Unless you're at a gathering that's received proper approval, it's illegal in New York to be "masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration."
22:55:00 <jwinterm> If you're caught using a reptile in a religious service in Kentucky, you could face a fine of more than $50.
22:56:23 <jwinterm> In Delaware, it's illegal for a pawnbroker to "take or receive as a pledge or pawn any artificial limb or wheelchair."
22:56:26 <jwinterm> ok I"m done
23:05:33 <bemore_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling_in_religion
23:05:33 <monerobux> [WIKIPEDIA] Snake handling in religion | "Snake handling, also called serpent handling, as a religious rite is observed in a small number of isolated churches, mostly in the United States, usually characterized as rural and part of the Holiness movement. The practice began in the early 20th century in Appalachia and plays only a small part in..."
23:06:29 <bemore_> Southern history is fun
23:06:52 <jwinterm> also extremely disturbing
23:07:00 <jwinterm> but I guess some fun also
23:16:59 <xmrscott[m]> A fine of more than $50 is less of a punishment than say, a sub ban tho
23:20:06 <xmrscott[m]> We currently don't have a Flarum or Plerom a instance based out of Switzerland or whatever. If we had a plan b sns option one could argue for more linient moderation