What are your guys' honest thoughts about Mattermost/Taiga? Have they been useful? Waste of resources?

I don't really use MM as I feel Matrix works better. Taiga has been useful for Defcon and localization workgroups.

maybe something like convos.chat or thelounge.chat would have been more useful than mattermost

selsta: yes but this would be IRC only, no?

A few groups have used Mattermost for room funcitonality as well. Non-IRC.

I don't know if they still do though.

what is room functionality?

Meaning Mattermost can have non-bridged IRC rooms.

Invite-only (private) or public

should be easy on IRC too

It would be easy to have non-IRC-bridged rooms on IRC?

🤔

just private rooms

or invite only

but the IRC admins will see

👀

tru :D

to all of you who don't have emojis on your IRC client, sorry

on Mattermost, only me and pigeons see everyone's stuff.

selsta, we should move completely to slack

you're on board with this

noo

you think this is a brilliant idea and you wish Monero more closely mirrored startups from Silicon Valley

I see it in your eyes

👀

slack bad

rehrar: i liked mattermost - apart from the fact that it kept breaking, so i just gave up

the bridges kept breaking

.tell sgp_ can't find the one that pulls from monerologs, but here's the script for irccloud style logs: gist.github.com/00-matt/3147fca586ba4270cb77877c9a798a8b

I think taiga is not that useful anymore. Github has most of taiga's features nowadays.

Thanks asymptotically, I'll be sure to test!

ErCiccione[m]: I agree Taiga isn't useful

I believe some workgroups still use it, but not as much as before.

GitHub project boards seem pretty limited

It is, but if people want to use more extended features i think there are better choices than taiga.

They do have good integration with GitHub issues and PRs and such, FWIW

But otherwise not a lot of functionality :/

ErCiccione[m]: I think Wekan will fit 99% of uses better than Taiga

Sarang: unless they updated it recently, i remember taiga having a very cluncky github integration. I agree with sgp_, i gave only a quick look to wekanf but seemed very good.

ErCiccione[m]: I meant that GitHub boards integrate well with issues/PRs/etc.

So it certainly seems far more useful for GitHub project management than general project management

Here's a test Wekan board anyone can edit: monero.sandcats.io/shared/_n7Q1f-6zYLjyb_EWlI-c88_Gzs58ebyfd2O3DufuWG

Here's a demo: boards.wekan.team/b/D2SzJKZDS4Z48ye…ource-kanban-board-with-mit-license

I need to make an executive decision about the Coffee Chat this weekend. **Please comment your availability for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday**

sarang rehrar binaryFate ajs-mob hyc woodser jtgrassie Snipa jwinterm M5M400 midipoet fort3hlulz

I will not be available

seems like most people will have focus elsewhere, holiday etc

Hey sgp_ I could make it Saturday

Really Fri/Sat/Sun are good for me

I'm off all three days so I'm pretty flexible

Another new ATH hashrate. 1.71 GH/s

Wow

sgp_, I think I could make it saturday, lemme know

I can make it whenever sgp_

I'll give it a few more minutes before making it final, but it looks like 17 UTC Saturday makes sense for those who are interested in participating Saturday

.time

kk

sgp_: I'm also free F-Su with the sole exceptions of 18UTC Sat (defcon wg) and 6pm+ Sat for getting im my weekly friend interaction via board games :)

thanks xmrscott[m], sorry for missing a ping to you :)

No worries. I'm the quiet type; even my bus driver in high school would forget my stop half the time despite sitting shotgun. :)

:(

I was the quiet type too but I had the best bus experience the first two years of high school before I drove. I had study hall the last period, and they would bus people home early. So I was dropped off directly in front of my house if I didn't have soccer practice or some other activity that day :)

lots of unknowns on Reddit complaining about Rehrar's salary is depressing

...Reddit...is depressing

I think it's because they don't understand what Diego does. imo it's up to Core and Diego to describe what he does

is it though?

not sure..

Core is paying Diego's salary. As a part of the transparency report, if people are unsure what he does and why, and seems related imo

*it/and

it's a transparency for expenditures, not employee/project evaluation

that is an expenditure though

I think it makes sense to do so (not really for the transparency report), but to solicit donations for his continued employment

agree

A rehrar transparency report.

I also agree it may not be directly applicable to the overall report, but this report exposed some communication shortfalls that are related

#FFFFFF00

sgp_: strongly disagree

lol

well, here is my comment :P reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/hjixed…rency_report_2019_june_2020/fwpneks

well, I'm often confused about what Diego is working on. Did you know he was about half-time on this transparency report for >3 months? Diego correct me if this is incorrect

In the past year?

I started out half time and was that way for quite some time.

how many hours did you spend on this report? rough estimate

Ohhhh I see what you mean.

most of the time was communicating info back and forth with Core to try and figure stuff out, before giving up on everything before 2019

Just under, yes like 2/5. Was digging for dinner of the older transactions pre2019 before realizing it wasn't worth it.

Yep

like 2/5? I'm confused. How many months/hours lol

Sorry. Was driving.

Well over 120 hours sorting, digging, averaging, asking, searching, and looking.

sgp_: please note micromanagement, deliverables, scrum etc. are ways to squeeze employees

dsc_: my point isn't trying to squeeze employees, but I think having a high-level "this is what I'm currently doing and what I have done" is reasonable

reasonable for core

Not for you.

meh, I hope Core will find it appropriate to share this info

and I think it's reasonable to ask them for it

Oh man, reddit is indeed depressing, people think rehrar is based out of germany :/

Sarang covers what he is working on every week

exactly. So imo it's up to core to ask these type of questions to rehrar, not the community

*people complaining

dsc_: well Core isn't really doing it lol. Diego spent $5k of his time trying to get responses on things from Core lol

I'm not faulting Diego for this at all btw

It wasn't just responses. I did a lot of my own digging through logs and old forum posts.

That was a lot of it.

sgp_: Yes, I'm arguing to ask core to provide such information, not rehrar directly

Not having an organized history is difficult on tasks like these. :P

dsc_: given the way Core operates, I think it's highly unlikely there will be any action unless Diego says to Core "this is what I want to do for my work's transparency, since my position is threatened if people don't donate" and Core says "okay"

asking Core to take ownership of this task would take forever

I'm not "demanding" that Diego does this, but him doing it is the path of least resistance which I hope he also finds useful

I also think it would be good to outline what rehrar is working on full time else this transparency report is just going to result in more questions.

Core are the benevolent dictators for life, if they don't respond or it takes long, there is probably a good reason

dsc_: nah, that allows for slacking without consequences

the ecosystem needs better

core is more irrelevant over time, hopefully

sorry I don't really mean to influence this conversation, carry on

luigi1111w: I agree in principle, but having you all be active is more valuable than you may think imo

I agree with selsta and shouldn't be shocking that people ask questions. It's their donations that pay for that job afterall.

I find the whole report kinda meh (not blaming rehrar) :P

but maybe not posting anything would have been better at this point

Ans i really dislike the notion: "if core doesn't responds then didn't worth answering". They are stewards not gods :)

This is our current governance, I'm not saying it's good or bad, god knows I have been irritated with the bureaucracy sometimes. I am trying to deflect people from asking rehrar what he did, to asking core instead, because that's how it should be.

Selsta: i was a bit disappointed too, especially since took months and many pings.

Brb

What is a bit unclear to me is whether the 7k a month corresponds to a full-time job?

Dsc_: i think people were asking rehrar because he made the post and he is the recepient oc the funds, but i gave for assumed that transparency should come from the hirer (core) not for the "employed" (rehrar).

*from the "employed"..

I think in this instance we should also expect a bit of transparency from the recipient

To be fair, 120 hours seems a bit steep in comparison with the details provided in the report

I received the raw dump of the general fund all tx.

I've got graphs and averages for several other things not included. I'll probably release them for previous years when they're complete and when I have more info.

So there is also 70% work done for "previous years" transparency report.

But finishing that would have delayed even further by an unknown amount of time. So 2019-2020 seemed responsibile to release for now while we get the other stuff out. And it will get done when it gets done.

there's a lot of background data (I've been told but haven't verified, though I trust that there is), and I agree the report is very meh. At the minimum I'd like to see a chart with current balances over time and a "runway" over time. If the ECC put out this report I'd rip them a new one. Granted they are also handling millions of dollars a month, not low thousands

dEBRUYNE: Regarding your comment "corresponds to a full-time job"... The tax agency in my country would agree with that notion and consider Rehrar an employee (disguised employment).

Lol, not in the US probably :p

dsc_: Was merely interested in the amount of hours that corresponds to the 7k

;p

dsc_: is totally right though that employment like this has many disadvantages. Higher taxes, fewer benefits, etc

:P

so it should be expected to pay more than a salaried wage

I consistently work minimum 160, but more often work 180-190.

for the record I have absolutely 0 concerns with this salary and do not think it's excessive

rehrar: Thanks for clarifying

Sorry for starting a fire on Reddit over the rehrar thing lol

I was very confused as I had no idea that was paid out of general fund/was a full time gig

It just jumps out as weird since the CCS exists and aids in transparency on what we're funding with donations

Do we have an estimate on when the general fund will be empty at this pace? If i understood correctly the amount of donations at the moment is not nearly enough to sustain the current expenses.

So to circumvent/be outside of that system that all others go through makes it seem... odd

Personally, i think that since the salary is taken from the generald fund, which is made by donations, there should be even more transparency than the average ccs proposals (for which we require a great deal of details) from core. But that's just my opinion

It should just go through the CCS, with all that entails

ErCiccione[m]: agree, especially if the general fund will be empty in 1-2 years

Unless someone can share a compelling reason this avoids all the norms/things we tell people wanting to get paid to contribute

core team felt there was value in having some accountable to us that could do generalist stuff

it should probably be noted that the gen fund was much larger back in 2017; a violent bear market and status quo bias has certainly changed that reality

That's the explanation that was given in the post and from the reaction on reddit and here doesn't seem to be enough. As i said, personally i think more transparency is needed (more than the average CCS proposal). Especially if we want people to donate to the general fund to keep that work going.

Perhaps moving to a 50-50 would be best?

50 / 50 ?

50 GF, 50 CCS?

I'm not sure why "accountable to Core" is distinct from going via CCS for funding

I don’t think getting paid from the GF is the problem, the problem is that there is no transparency.

I'm all for rehrar helping out with general stuff for Core, thats a much-needed role!

It should be noted this is kind of hilariously a moot point given the scant donations to the GF. :D

But yes, if we want to increase that there will probably need to be transparency moving forward.

Its definitely a different point because of that lol

But for your own sustainability wouldnt CCS be the right path?

Accountability to the core team, transparency to the community?

for sure

Even after this post now all we heard was "generalist stuff" which means nothing concrete.

CCS comes with the idea of accountability to the community.

the general fund has a new and very nice donation address .........

888tNkZrPN6JsEgekjMnABU4TBzc2Dt29EPAvkRxbANsAnjyPbb3iQ1YBRk1UXcdRsiKc9dhwMVgN5S9cQUiyoogDavup3H

My point can be summed in: if money from the core fund are used, there should be complete transparency and detail about how the funds are spent (more than a CCS, to have a concrete reference). I agree with selsta that "generalist stuff" doesn't really mean anything.

Here, I can summarize a lot of my work here in this channel of you give me some minutes.

wow rehrar gets paid 7000 xmr a month

lol

And it can answer some of the questions selsta might have for generalist things.

Thanks rehrar!

I don't think that's the way the report should be done imo. Cannot be a chat between us, i think should be something more serious

I'll summarize my thoughts: If this remains GF-funded, I'd recommend a quarterly report on what you've worked on/focused on in that period. I would thing CCS-funding is preferable, and if agreed, just move the funding to that and use CCS like others for milestones/accountability with a quarterly/monthly report.

ErCiccione[m] its a good start to bring clarity here, but yeah, it needs to be in front of the better part of the community when ready/regularly

moving to a CCS model is certainly fine with us

It would probably help with sustainability as well IMO

Relying on the GF is more spotty (I would think) and at risk of losing funding since it receives almost no donations compared to CCSs

the community will make its will known either way as far as the value and sustainability of the job

but there is more automatic transparency with ccs

Now I say this as a purely selfish thing

but the odds of me getting a similar salary on the CCS is quite slim.

(at home now so on a keyboard and can respond faster)

People in the nerd circle don't value "soft skills". People skills. Making things happen skills. Non-coding skills.

Some will, but many (most?) won't. So they will see my salary as excessive. My CCS's will not get funded, and I will have to reduce the ask, which, for the amount of work I pour into Monero is kind of sad to me.

Hopefully you'd be wrong

I think people realize your value since you've been so consistent for years

But thats also where transparency on what you've done/are doing will help show why you're well worth that cost

I would happily fund it, but I'm also more involved than basically anyone outside of this channel/dev channel

What's some of the things I do? Well, Monero is not just one hive mind or community. It's not just on IRC. It's on Discord, Reddit, Telegram, Mattermost, Slack, and more. Most people stick to one or just a couple. Some people don't use any, and just pop up to help with Defcon or C3 or other conferences.

I certainly don't think $84k per year is excessive at all, especially considering you get no 401k, health insurance, etc.

^^

But I do think trying to work on 3 month increments and define tangible milestones is probably more difficult for you rehrar

A good portion of my job is keeping up with all of these spaces. Knowing who is where, and who does what, and who to refer people to. Just recently there was questions about who was holding a domain name, and because I was in the proper channels at the proper times (last year), I knew where to find out.

jwinterm: I think milestones would be detrimental to my work, if I'm being honest.

I don't disagree, but I'm just pointing out that is how the ccs has worked in 100% of cases so far afair

Setting out an inalienable path that has to be followed for three months, even if something more urgent arises. The freedom to be able to think on my feet and decide on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis what needs urgent work is what has helped the most imo.

some of them are becoming pretty open ended

maybe just sarang

sarang and mooo

oh and moo, forgot about him

mooo is very much "I'll work on what needs to be done"

his like grandfathered in

he's*

but yes, sarang and mooo are kind of the only two.

Is this problematic?

/r/doomero! monero contributor gets paid! reddit community on suicide watch

ErCiccione[m]: would you prefer a blog post format of my list of major accomplishments?

sarang: no. relax.

ok

Open-ended CCS is fine for you rehrar since obviously your position isn't a concrete "I do these dev things" role

yes sarang, you'll have to do this incredible list of things now

lol

"make math"

*meth

o_0

no thx

Thats why I think: CCS for funding (provides community oversight/funding) and regular reports of whats been worked on

So you can just backfill "milestones/deliverables" instead of committing to certain ones

sarang: no bro

give your thoughts ;)

is that how you make meth?

I think the primary goal going forward should be clear expectations

So folks can be informed and decide if they choose to contribute or not, whether to a CSS or to a general fund

^^

(but seriously, this proof notation is super irritating...)

tru re: moo

I am clocked into a timesheet all day. But I am near the top of the food chain, so half of my time or less is actually billable to a client. In those cases, i must be specific because the client needs justification for what they pay for. For the rest of the time, my timesheet descriptions are dog shit because I'm bouncing around, talking to employees, answering emails, and a large part of my time

consists of being distracted for little admin or unbillable fire drills. From my timesheets, it looks like I don't do shit. I imagine it'd be the same with rehrar

jwinterm: mooo

Rehrar: my point is that there should be some kind of structure. Sarang makes monthly reports, mooo makes monthly reports and all his commits are public.

i'm valuable.. really! but it's hard to show it aside from being available, having expertise, and coming through when people ask things of me.

scoobybejesus: this is correct

I do have some major accomplishments, for sure, but a lot of the work is keeping up with everything, talking with people, managing little fires before they turn into big fires, etc.

And in some instances, the little act of being available, sitting down and talking with people (while also knowing my stuff) has paid big dividends.

A big example is Cake Wallet. When Vik first came on the scene, I was first to start talking to him (when his wallet was closed and people were mad at him). He was new to this world, and I not only walked with him about how Monero works (technology and community), but also walked with him in convincing him to choose a FOSS license, and worked with him on which would be best.

I doubt that would be an issue because of how long/consistent you've been with the community, and how involved you've been.

I don't see why the community wouldn't appreciate such effort, especially knowing that the core team sponsored it for years

It doesn't have to be this "I delivered 9 things", just an overview so people see that funding is providing something

Just more visibility instead of the current 0 visibility :)

Research sometimes feels like this, regarding deliverables

There are some topics that result in clear deliverables

and others that do not

fort3hlulz ErCiccione[m] I see what you're saying, but again, reiterating scoobybejesus's point, a good portion of that would be 'keeping up with the community', and it may fly for a one proposal or two, but then people are going to grumble, "why are we paying 7k for someone to read Telegram?" :P

"lots of math on paper that ended up not working as expected" or something :/

sarang: yes this also happens. Research and test deployments into FOSS infrastructure are an example.

And my point in all of this is

sarang knows how this feels (as stated above), but ultimately people trust him and his 'deliverables' are quite clear after several months with hindsight.

Many of my 'deliverables' are the community is taken care of, healthy, and there are no major fires.

So the rearview mirror just shows clear road and clear skies. To the untrained eye, it looks like nothing happened.

So it looks like I did nothing.

the other side is, if community is unhappy with lack of transparency now, then they won't fund the general fund and your job will go away for sure

Whereas without my work, there would have probably been many more bumps along the way, and it would only be visible in the hindsight if I wasn't around.

I'm not arguing to not put out reports, necessarily.

I'm just saying that the reports will also be the death of my job. :)

so it's a catch 22. I don't do transparency, and I lose the job, or I do do transparency, and I lose the job, just for different reasons.

you're being a fatalist and saying your job will end regardless? :P

I am being a realist and saying 'yes'.

fatalists tend to think they are realists

It's better to go down the transparency route though, so I think that's what I'll recommend to core to do.

I think if you genuinely don't see a CCS getting funded, and Core thinks you're well worth the money, then keep funding out of GF and just publish reports when you can

luigi1111w: I'll keep working as if my job will continue, of course.

I still think CCS would get funded, but obviously I cant speak for everyone

well CCS is an option for gen fund too

Once again, I think a 50-50 might be something to explore? But if core kicks me off and wants me on CCS, then I'll open a proposal.

rehrar can run a ccs, and the gen fund can fund the shortfall (to ccs)

at least for a trial basis or whatever

Yeah I think thats a great idea

I expect a good amount of this: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/hjixed…rency_report_2019_june_2020/fwp3k29

I would hope not

I disagree with the language used but a transparency report that says we pay someone Xk / month without saying what for exactly is going to result in backslash.

Note on that comment in particular, I didn't schedule either of those things. :P I was given the task of running the coffee chat by sgp cuz he would be absent, I said sure, I showed up on the day and found out something else was scheduled, and made the decision to postpone.

<selsta> I disagree with the language used but a transparency report that says we pay someone Xk / month without saying what for exactly is going to result in backslash. <- this

Isn't an assessment of value precisely why CCS is useful?

one last thing to say

if the community thinks I'm useful vs if core thinks I'm useful

currently core is paying me and I'm accountable to them. If they think I'm useful to them, then I'm doing my job.

Even if community doesn't.

(though I understand that means GF won't get funds and so will of community is played out in the long term)

With how hands-off core is, I don't see them making a big statement about my usefulness, even if these things have been said in private. Which, I'll be honest, is a little disappointing.

agree

which just leaves me to the whims of the community as the only voice. I can defend myself, but the bias is obviously present, and it will be easy to discount what I say.

honestly I think working on 3 month contracts at the whim of crazy internet folks is terrifying

btw - i am curious about the stuff that happens on a day to day basis, whether milestones or little crap... but i still agree that core hired you, and it's up to core to tell the community why they value your services

Again, I think the key element ought to be clear expectations

i love clear expectation

s

I'm happy to give an 'average day in the life of Diego'

allow me to do so now

Diego TV

:o

I work 6-7 hours a day. Every day. Meaning 7 days a week. I get no PTO or vacation days (except when I heavily overwork hours like with defcon) and want some time off). If we think just 6 hours a day, that times 7 days a week is a 42 hour work week, so I'm hitting my 'full time' quota there. But it's often more, especially towards the latter part of the year (Defcon/C3).

I think core values him because they are "volunteers" in their free time, and taking payment isn't a good option. Diego does the things that we don't want to or don't have time for or don't see.

Just under half of that is 'keeping up with the community' on all of the platforms. Should we put more resources in Discord? Most scrubs use it. Talk with the Telegram people about our two rooms. Clean out spam. Look through IRC logs. Mattermost. Reddit. Something to act on? Something to discuss with Core about? Are there old things that core hasn't responded to me about that I need to get their info on

(common)

the rest of the hours depends on the time of year. Again, the latter half of the year, come July, is often spent on Defcon/C3 related things. Please note: I do NOT get paid (either travel or for hours) when I do any conference activities outside of Defcon or C3.

Defended where I could speak to on thread. I wouldn't worry too much about naysayers who don't even know you don't live in Germany :)

So last year I went to WCC in Vegas, I went to HCPP, and Tabconf. All of these were either a CCS proposal (for travel, not time) or self funded.

Re: General Fund depletion, wasn't there some mention by you rehrar on a 'sekret' project to ease donation, or some such?

Other work includes things like working on this transparency report (combing through all of that raw data), working on internal audits for CCS things and the wallets, recently I've been conducting interviews with people in this lull time of crypto to see where major contributors think we are and where we should be going.

I run some meetings, I gather feedback, I try to prevent fires, and routinely check up with the different workgroups to both make sure they're taken care of and don't need anything.

I made a new system for MRL ( that was ultimately not used) so sarang doesn't have to worry about funding, etc.

Alternatively, would anyone be against creating an Open Collective thing for general fund to enable reoccuring fiat contributions?

Previous work that I no longer do much of includes website work, Kovri work (I was one of the few who stuck around to deal with anonimal when everyone else jumped ship because of the working conditions), putting out the fire that was Kovri when it tanked

ErCiccione[m] could need help with reviewers on the website repo

as far as I can see

yes, selsta and that's something I'm willing to help with if not for one thing.

I've been at this for two and a half years, and the first year and a half or so, Monero consumed my existence. It wasn't uncommon for me to blow past my hours with one week still remaining in the month.

This wasn't healthy, and I've made a big effort to keep the 6-7 hours per day, and after my time is up, I make myself do other things.

But you're right, if that's the big thing that needs urgent help these days, then that's where I should put my focus.

I will definitely have more time than usual, I think. Since Defcon is digital (although I may be proved hilariously wrong on how I think that would decrease the workload)

selsta: does this kind of answer your question?

yes and I think it should be written down somewhere on non IRC

sorry I've been away since normal work has me "clocked in" so to speak, how absurd I know :p

jumping into changes like 50/50 without first focusing on the other concerns seems super premature to me

like, focus on just sharing what you do more clearly in a marketable way. Core **should** do this, but in the absence of this, offer to do it yourself rehrar (or demand to do it for your job's safety) and bill those hours as necessary

I don't want to sound pedantic rehrar, but that's quite common for regulars who open a ccs proposal. I challenge anybody to tell me i work and worked the amount of hours i'm paid for :P (except for the last couple of weeks probably). Same for mooo. That doesn't mean that should be expected tho, i see your point and the effort is obviously appreciated.

I agree with sgp, and now i shut up because i think and hope i made made my opinion clear :)

I mean, rehrar has that thick German accent

so it's a common mistake

sgp_ I agree it's premature to make changes; I didn't mean to come off as suggesting them, just trying to come across not as "our way or the highway"

I don't exactly know if anyone was, but I read that talk super far up and was a little shocked lol. Like settle down people :p

random question from Vik that maybe fluffypony would know the answer to: has anyone tried to submit the Monero logo to Unicode?

Logos are specifically excluded from Unicode submissions

check section 6

is Bitcoin in unicode?

yes as a currency symbol

the Monero logo isn't a currency symboll

*symbol

okay, got it

well let's change that

:)

what would the Monero M look like

monero is *the* currency, its symbol should be a currency symbol

its logo should be a currency symbol

(not to distract too much, we can come back to the more important conversation haha)

or something

"the symbol is this right here" as we point to the current logo

rehrar: the things you listed now can also be included in a transparency report on what you work on exactly

_M_

lowercase m with a strikethrough

I disagree with the "they wouldn’t understand / appreciate me anyway" approach

Wouldn't that conflict with a M w/ an actual strikethrough though? I feel like it would get rejected on that ambiguity basis

_M_

selsta: that's my suspicion, but I'll see about doing it your guys' way anyways

fwiw ErCiccione[m] also did a more management role with translations and got funded every time from CCS (with some struggles sometimes :P)

sure some people disagreed but it worked overall

bad example but you get the idea

What about the M with a circle around it... or is that too logo-like, even as an outline

And we can fairly that a global truth is tat people don't care at all about translations. Or they care when theu find them ready to use :P

* fairly say (sorry, i make even more typos with the phone)

Anyone in the community have a background in symbology or vexillology by chance that it wouldn't hurt to consult, etc with?

If you look at the existing currency symbols, the standard is two parallel slashes through a roman alphabet character for roman alphabet based languages

But would anyone recognize that as referring to Monero?

rehrar: I guess since this is mostly up to you, are you going to take on a more leadership role and show what you're working on, or is that something you and/or Core do not want you to do?

Given Monero is Esperanto based I would suggest maybe a lower m/ two horizontal slashes?

*lower m w/

Reddit pushed back since Reddit pushes back on everything. They are super mean/rude lol

"we made this movie #1 in the US! wow!" Reddit: "not even a movie smh"

sarang: Eventually yes. I mean it's close enough to the M on the logo. Should it get added to unicode you could then mention it on SNS, get exchanges to use it, etc

being overly critical is a Monero disease sometimes

I would argue the every person doesn't even know what the etymology behind the dollar sign is, they only know it because of usage everywhere

*everyday person

If you look at a physical USD, there is no $ to be found on it, for example searx.tuxcloud.net/image_proxy?url=…67ba3dcdb895ddddf364295e0f927c95eb3

true

Sgp_ i wouldn't disregard the feedback on reddit like that. Even if i disagree with the terms and accusations. The comments clearly show that more transparency is badly needed and i agree with that sentiment. There is also a lot of confusion, which shows that the blog post didn't achieve its goal.

we don’t want to community to get suspicious of core team

while reddit is usually awful they had a point here

don't take my comments to the extreme of saying we shouldn't ever listen to Reddit, but I also want to point out they are usually super critical of even good efforts

hi

:)

hi

hi

From iOS test

irccloud works quite well on iOS

I also use it :P

yep.. Justin helped me set it right

:)

Bitcoins proposal for unicode that was accepted, FWIW

So basically, symbol usage needs to precede unicode symbol

Perhaps a simple and clear outline of the M-with-circle logo?

It's certainly not even remotely as ubiquitous as the bitcoin symbol

and is, of course, a logo

so who is gonna take it up? I say Justin :)

lol

Yeah, I don't think it would fly w/ Unicode Consortium given the logo-ness

I will help of course but we need to first agree on the icon

I would suggest introducing a non-logo symbol via the GUI, etc and building from the ground up (e.g. Wikipedia, exchanges)

Then you'd have a stronger case

like xmr.ru telegram logo?

Maybe a few can be drafted by people here, maybe ran by designer folk like dsc, xiphon, rehrar, and then a poll ran on r/xmrtrader or something?

*maybe ran by designer folk

s/ran by/ran through

vikrants: test

How about this for a more formal timeline. I create an issue on meta today. People submit proposals there. Said proposals are reviewed next commnunity meeting (7/11). Any ones that have strong opposition are dropped, list given to dsc, xiphon, rehrar or whoever to collect commentary. After 1-2 weeks, a poll is ran on xmrtrader and Blockfolio (people most likely to use said symbol) to get better consensus.

Winning symbol is then added to GUI, wikipedia to start. Where it goes from there, who knows.

👍🏽

so what is with ɱ ?

^

I thought that was the logo

That's what I thought too.

Or at least that that had the most support behind it.

oh cool.. you can do avatars

Ah, herpa derp

getting something added to unicode will be unlikely, also ɱ is used already in some places

I mean I wouldn't say it's won by any means.

It is listed under Wikipedia and elsewhere as the symbol being ɱ though

So Vik's question which started this is answered I believe

Wikipedia also said Luigi was the boss for a while there.

luigi1111:

<sgp_ "random question from Vik that ma"> ^

xmrscott[m]: project manager expert 😎

I'm the boss now

The reasoning for rehrar to be on GF vs. CCS was explained in December: web.getmonero.org/2019/12/03/core-team-general-fund.html section "Current usage of the General Fund"

It's worth nothing the symbol used, ɱ, is part of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) set in Unicode. There's technically no reason one couldn't push for a symbol that is more reflective of existing currency, even if it isn't adopted by Unicode. The downside being it might cause confusion to have two symbols

Oof. binaryFate coming in hot.

* It's worth nothing the symbol used, ɱ, is part of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) set in Unicode. There's technically no reason one couldn't push for a symbol that is more reflective of existing currency symbology, even if it isn't adopted by Unicode. The downside being it might cause confusion to have two symbols

Sorry I have no time to catch up with logs so just dropping that :)

The question then becomes, is anyone here really interested in pushing for adoption of a more currnecy-like symbol for Monero, or believes the broader Monero community like traders cares?

(Perhaps this is something best reserved for the next community meeting)

Coffee Chat viewers, even

binaryFate: I just posted on reddit

the december link does not really address things

hope we will get something more detailed else I will be disappointed :S

Monthly research report is now posted: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/hk5gcp…_monthly_report_from_sarang_noether

good bot

That CCS can presumably be moved from Work in Progress to Completed Tasks

selsta what exactly doesn't it address?

Just wondering. :) What exactly needs to be in my summaries to please the max amount of people.

it addresses the why but not the what you are doing

I think people are more curious about the what side

I sit all day and play video games and get paid for it.

I don't see how that blog poat relates to the conversation as well. The 'why' is known and was never in discussion.

see sarang’s monthly writeup

that would be ideal transparency

the other extreme is saying "nerds wouldn’t understand / appreciate it anyway" :D

Guys let's be straight about this: the core team decided to spend money to hire somebody and to pay him using the GF, but decided to disclose it only 2 years later. This IMHO was not a good move. Now people are asking for more transparency in the way the money spent are going to benefit the project and the amswer was a very generalistic blog post who didn't really satisfy the community.

Personally, i think this was not handled very well and more transparency is being asked.

You're conflating something ErCiccione[m]. The general fund transparency report was how the general fund money was being spent, which was reported ok accurately. A rehrar transparency report is a separate thing. I'm not faulting the community for wanting this report, but it's a different thing than general fund transparency.

I really hope the core team will make the right calls here, because i would hate to see the trust between core and community being questioned.

that report is a summary of the past. are people saying we're bad off and money was misspent?

core team hired rehrar (which is ok) but has not been transparent on what rehrar’s job is exactly

and when asked the answers have been kinda vague

why would anyone expect otherwise? are you expecting an HR department to provide you with a formal job description?

Rehrar: i'm talking about the way these info are disclosed. I'm still of the opinion that the "report" about what you do should have come from core. A simply "he help us with general stuff" is not enough

dunno, looking at all the things he has done, that sounds like the most accurate description

Basically, what selsta said in better wording :)

general fund are community donations so some amount of transparency would be appreciated

(in my opinion)

I don't think core would be opposed to me writing this thing.

As sgp said, if I say I want to write it they'll probably say "k". :P

hey, let's look and see if this is covered in your job description. oh wait

Wouldn't be weird if they would stop you from making a report? Why would they do that? I don't understand how is that related to asking more transparency to them.

ErCiccione[m]> Guys let's be straight about this: the core team decided to spend money to hire somebody and to pay him using the GF, but decided to disclose it only 2 years later < the arrangement has been public for.....pardon my fuzzy memory....well over a year. Has it been shouted from the rooftops? no. Was the amount disclosed? no

rehrar: please write your jerb description kthxbai

niocbrrrrrr: no. The fact that money from the general fund where used to hire somebody was disclosed 2 years later AFAIK. I understand that was core's choice, but i disagree with the choice fwiw. I feel like the point of the discussion is shifting now. I made my opinion known well enough i think.

without sarcasm: people appear to want to see what Rehrar does, I have no reason why we would want to prevent that.

I knew about core paying rehrar from the general fund because it was mentioned several times on irc

it was also mentioned when he worked part time and it was mentioned when he changed to full time

yes this is a minor point but it was known

I don't know the timeframe you are referring to. I remembwr speaking with rehrar when the announcement came out and he confirmed the fact wasn't disclosed before.

How the fuck did the GF wallet end up owing the CCS wallet $250,000?

(sorry if this has been covered already)

250k?

it was discussed, but not publicly stated (as in reddit and stuff) ErCiccione[m]

there were discussions on IRC about it

Oh

565 xmr is not $250k

My bad

LOL

.c 250000 / 565

make it so

would be nice

rehrar: i don't understand. Maybe was discussed live between people, but i would say i've been around for quite some time and i had no idea utill it was made public.

I also never read about it :P

not that this is important IMO

semantics at this point

Yeah that's not the point.

well if the point is that people want transparency on what I do in the form of a write up, then I have said that I'm willing to do it, luigi, speaking for core, has said that they don't have an issue with it

so at that point...?

to be fair, while nobody doubts the work that rehrar does, some more transparency would have been nice. I think that's all

I'm going to bed. I think many people made the point clear. I really hope transparency and communication will be improved or i forsee problems later on. Goodnight everybody

I do wonder why someone like sarang has to worry about a rolling 3 month CCS, while rehrar doesn't. But maybe that shouldn't be an issue.

We don't want MRL directly answerable to core

that doesn't sound a valid answer

that's a hugely valid answer. Decentralization is very important and sensitive in that area.

If it's for neutrality, you have community sway, which is also important for consensus

plus, you also have control a lot of "community mediums/servers/sites, etc"

So it's a clear point of centralisation, either way

but anyways. I think the report is a good thing. I am glad that GF doesn't owe $250,000 to the CCS wallet. And I think you do a good job rehrar. I am, however, extremely annoyed that you thought $40 was too much for one of the best aquariums that we could have gone too a while back, as I now know how much you make. But whatevs.

wait I never got my aquarium

You literally have zero idea as to my expenses you dingus.

dude. Bubble Tea is on YOU next time

luigi1111w: fix tippero and I'll get you an aquarium

!balance

ugh

.seen tippero

my moreno :(

I had a whale wallet there

I had 0.5

enough for an aquarium

i can act as the new tippero

dsc_: send my balance to the GF

!deposit

niocbrrrrrr: I could send you a clear plastic bag of water for that

89kUDgn4cWMZr3kqgen496hX4rzRLxMk3igFWgzaNxy9gfSPkXmGr1x5MwDNp2GQyx8HD4h4H1CzRHj8uMCeHYmXEibizJB

w0w someone updated tippero to use subaddresses

lol

selsta is the new eth doubler

newtippero: niocbrrr sent you 0.5 xmr, but I kept it

hyc is also a tippero? getting confusing now!!

;)

midipoet: overseas shipping is expensive now

ok. I'll just send the plastic bag.

luigi1111w: today is the day to merge supercop pr :D

how have I not done that yet

done

yay

lol midipoet what an odd set of things to say. People don't need to waste money on things they don't want to lol

it sounded more like a joke? :P

hopefully

anyway, let is be said that I as a community member would like to see a report of some kind. And I also think that the scope of the role to include some "project management" would be extremely useful. He already does a bunch of communication so might as well help write stuff down

I as a bagholder would like to see a report detailing when monero will be pumped as well as future announcements

I meant community member

.nextMEAannounce

xmrscott: The next MEA announcement is scheduled for 2020/12/23

.pump

xmrscott: Proceeding to prime the pumps