00:15:55 What are your guys' honest thoughts about Mattermost/Taiga? Have they been useful? Waste of resources? 02:23:48 I don't really use MM as I feel Matrix works better. Taiga has been useful for Defcon and localization workgroups. 06:14:05 maybe something like https://convos.chat or https://thelounge.chat would have been more useful than mattermost 06:53:10 selsta: yes but this would be IRC only, no? 06:53:26 A few groups have used Mattermost for room funcitonality as well. Non-IRC. 06:53:34 I don't know if they still do though. 06:53:41 what is room functionality? 06:53:50 Meaning Mattermost can have non-bridged IRC rooms. 06:54:08 Invite-only (private) or public 06:54:09 should be easy on IRC too 06:54:28 It would be easy to have non-IRC-bridged rooms on IRC? 06:54:32 đŸ€” 06:54:40 just private rooms 06:54:46 or invite only 06:54:56 but the IRC admins will see 06:55:03 👀 06:55:17 tru :D 06:55:19 to all of you who don't have emojis on your IRC client, sorry 06:55:31 on Mattermost, only me and pigeons see everyone's stuff. 06:57:18 selsta, we should move completely to slack 06:57:24 you're on board with this 06:57:32 noo 06:58:36 you think this is a brilliant idea and you wish Monero more closely mirrored startups from Silicon Valley 06:58:40 I see it in your eyes 06:58:43 👀 07:06:52 slack bad 07:20:40 rehrar: i liked mattermost - apart from the fact that it kept breaking, so i just gave up 07:20:48 the bridges kept breaking 09:45:17 .tell sgp_ can't find the one that pulls from monerologs, but here's the script for irccloud style logs: https://gist.github.com/00-matt/3147fca586ba4270cb77877c9a798a8b 09:45:17 asymptotically: I'll pass that on when sgp_ is around. 11:08:50 I think taiga is not that useful anymore. Github has most of taiga's features nowadays. 12:48:12 Thanks asymptotically, I'll be sure to test! 12:48:12 sgp_: 2020-07-02 - 09:45:17 tell sgp_ can't find the one that pulls from monerologs, but here's the script for irccloud style logs: https://gist.github.com/00-matt/3147fca586ba4270cb77877c9a798a8b 12:48:32 ErCiccione[m]: I agree Taiga isn't useful 13:08:39 I believe some workgroups still use it, but not as much as before. 13:11:29 GitHub project boards seem pretty limited 13:13:40 It is, but if people want to use more extended features i think there are better choices than taiga. 13:17:18 They do have good integration with GitHub issues and PRs and such, FWIW 13:17:23 But otherwise not a lot of functionality :/ 13:40:31 ErCiccione[m]: I think Wekan will fit 99% of uses better than Taiga 13:43:58 Sarang: unless they updated it recently, i remember taiga having a very cluncky github integration. I agree with sgp_, i gave only a quick look to wekanf but seemed very good. 13:44:33 ErCiccione[m]: I meant that GitHub boards integrate well with issues/PRs/etc. 13:45:02 So it certainly seems far more useful for GitHub project management than general project management 13:52:14 Here's a test Wekan board anyone can edit: https://monero.sandcats.io/shared/_n7Q1f-6zYLjyb_EWlI-c88_Gzs58ebyfd2O3DufuWG 13:52:37 Here's a demo: https://boards.wekan.team/b/D2SzJKZDS4Z48yeQH/wekan-open-source-kanban-board-with-mit-license 14:10:59 I need to make an executive decision about the Coffee Chat this weekend. **Please comment your availability for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday** 14:12:21 sarang rehrar binaryFate ajs-mob hyc woodser jtgrassie Snipa jwinterm M5M400 midipoet fort3hlulz 14:13:04 I will not be available 14:16:47 seems like most people will have focus elsewhere, holiday etc 14:25:07 Hey sgp_ I could make it Saturday 14:25:23 Really Fri/Sat/Sun are good for me 14:25:49 I'm off all three days so I'm pretty flexible 14:50:01 Another new ATH hashrate. 1.71 GH/s 15:02:14 Wow 15:20:43 sgp_, I think I could make it saturday, lemme know 15:52:54 I can make it whenever sgp_ 15:55:51 I'll give it a few more minutes before making it final, but it looks like 17 UTC Saturday makes sense for those who are interested in participating Saturday 15:56:02 .time 15:56:02 2020-07-02 - 15:56:02 15:56:11 kk 15:58:16 sgp_: I'm also free F-Su with the sole exceptions of 18UTC Sat (defcon wg) and 6pm+ Sat for getting im my weekly friend interaction via board games :) 16:03:21 thanks xmrscott[m], sorry for missing a ping to you :) 16:06:25 No worries. I'm the quiet type; even my bus driver in high school would forget my stop half the time despite sitting shotgun. :) 16:13:34 :( 16:15:04 I was the quiet type too but I had the best bus experience the first two years of high school before I drove. I had study hall the last period, and they would bus people home early. So I was dropped off directly in front of my house if I didn't have soccer practice or some other activity that day :) 16:30:25 lots of unknowns on Reddit complaining about Rehrar's salary is depressing 16:31:14 ...Reddit...is depressing 16:31:55 * dsc_ presses luigi1111w 16:41:04 I think it's because they don't understand what Diego does. imo it's up to Core and Diego to describe what he does 16:42:31 is it though? 16:42:56 not sure.. 16:43:34 Core is paying Diego's salary. As a part of the transparency report, if people are unsure what he does and why, and seems related imo 16:43:48 *it/and 16:45:34 it's a transparency for expenditures, not employee/project evaluation 16:46:01 that is an expenditure though 16:46:35 I think it makes sense to do so (not really for the transparency report), but to solicit donations for his continued employment 16:46:56 agree 16:47:33 A rehrar transparency report. 16:47:58 I also agree it may not be directly applicable to the overall report, but this report exposed some communication shortfalls that are related 16:48:18 #FFFFFF00 16:48:42 sgp_: strongly disagree 16:48:42 lol 16:49:19 well, here is my comment :P https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/hjixed/general_fund_transparency_report_2019_june_2020/fwpneks/ 16:49:20 [REDDIT] General Fund Transparency Report (2019 - June 2020) (https://web.getmonero.org/2020/06/30/gf-transparency-report.html) to r/Monero | 28 points (83.0%) | 20 comments | Posted by Rehrar | Created at 2020-07-01 - 20:57:43 16:49:33 well, I'm often confused about what Diego is working on. Did you know he was about half-time on this transparency report for >3 months? Diego correct me if this is incorrect 16:49:56 In the past year? 16:50:14 I started out half time and was that way for quite some time. 16:50:23 how many hours did you spend on this report? rough estimate 16:50:55 Ohhhh I see what you mean. 16:51:02 most of the time was communicating info back and forth with Core to try and figure stuff out, before giving up on everything before 2019 16:52:25 Just under, yes like 2/5. Was digging for dinner of the older transactions pre2019 before realizing it wasn't worth it. 16:52:32 Yep 16:54:32 like 2/5? I'm confused. How many months/hours lol 17:01:28 Sorry. Was driving. 17:02:21 Well over 120 hours sorting, digging, averaging, asking, searching, and looking. 17:03:15 sgp_: please note micromanagement, deliverables, scrum etc. are ways to squeeze employees 17:03:53 dsc_: my point isn't trying to squeeze employees, but I think having a high-level "this is what I'm currently doing and what I have done" is reasonable 17:04:14 reasonable for core 17:04:21 Not for you. 17:05:10 meh, I hope Core will find it appropriate to share this info 17:05:17 and I think it's reasonable to ask them for it 17:05:59 Oh man, reddit is indeed depressing, people think rehrar is based out of germany :/ 17:06:00 Sarang covers what he is working on every week 17:06:04 exactly. So imo it's up to core to ask these type of questions to rehrar, not the community 17:06:08 *people complaining 17:07:01 dsc_: well Core isn't really doing it lol. Diego spent $5k of his time trying to get responses on things from Core lol 17:07:29 I'm not faulting Diego for this at all btw 17:07:45 It wasn't just responses. I did a lot of my own digging through logs and old forum posts. 17:07:50 That was a lot of it. 17:08:12 sgp_: Yes, I'm arguing to ask core to provide such information, not rehrar directly 17:08:57 Not having an organized history is difficult on tasks like these. :P 17:09:11 dsc_: given the way Core operates, I think it's highly unlikely there will be any action unless Diego says to Core "this is what I want to do for my work's transparency, since my position is threatened if people don't donate" and Core says "okay" 17:09:39 asking Core to take ownership of this task would take forever 17:10:15 I'm not "demanding" that Diego does this, but him doing it is the path of least resistance which I hope he also finds useful 17:10:18 I also think it would be good to outline what rehrar is working on full time else this transparency report is just going to result in more questions. 17:10:42 Core are the benevolent dictators for life, if they don't respond or it takes long, there is probably a good reason 17:11:04 dsc_: nah, that allows for slacking without consequences 17:11:09 the ecosystem needs better 17:11:35 core is more irrelevant over time, hopefully 17:12:12 sorry I don't really mean to influence this conversation, carry on 17:12:43 luigi1111w: I agree in principle, but having you all be active is more valuable than you may think imo 17:13:40 I agree with selsta and shouldn't be shocking that people ask questions. It's their donations that pay for that job afterall. 17:13:51 I find the whole report kinda meh (not blaming rehrar) :P 17:13:59 but maybe not posting anything would have been better at this point 17:14:35 Ans i really dislike the notion: "if core doesn't responds then didn't worth answering". They are stewards not gods :) 17:15:58 This is our current governance, I'm not saying it's good or bad, god knows I have been irritated with the bureaucracy sometimes. I am trying to deflect people from asking rehrar what he did, to asking core instead, because that's how it should be. 17:16:05 Selsta: i was a bit disappointed too, especially since took months and many pings. 17:16:34 Brb 17:17:50 What is a bit unclear to me is whether the 7k a month corresponds to a full-time job? 17:18:12 Dsc_: i think people were asking rehrar because he made the post and he is the recepient oc the funds, but i gave for assumed that transparency should come from the hirer (core) not for the "employed" (rehrar). 17:18:38 *from the "employed".. 17:19:35 I think in this instance we should also expect a bit of transparency from the recipient 17:21:41 To be fair, 120 hours seems a bit steep in comparison with the details provided in the report 17:25:21 I received the raw dump of the general fund all tx. 17:26:01 I've got graphs and averages for several other things not included. I'll probably release them for previous years when they're complete and when I have more info. 17:26:29 So there is also 70% work done for "previous years" transparency report. 17:27:08 But finishing that would have delayed even further by an unknown amount of time. So 2019-2020 seemed responsibile to release for now while we get the other stuff out. And it will get done when it gets done. 17:35:36 there's a lot of background data (I've been told but haven't verified, though I trust that there is), and I agree the report is very meh. At the minimum I'd like to see a chart with current balances over time and a "runway" over time. If the ECC put out this report I'd rip them a new one. Granted they are also handling millions of dollars a month, not low thousands 17:42:39 dEBRUYNE: Regarding your comment "corresponds to a full-time job"... The tax agency in my country would agree with that notion and consider Rehrar an employee (disguised employment). 17:42:47 * dsc_ hides 17:46:00 Lol, not in the US probably :p 17:46:49 dsc_: Was merely interested in the amount of hours that corresponds to the 7k 17:46:51 ;p 17:47:41 dsc_: is totally right though that employment like this has many disadvantages. Higher taxes, fewer benefits, etc 17:47:51 :P 17:47:58 so it should be expected to pay more than a salaried wage 17:48:05 I consistently work minimum 160, but more often work 180-190. 17:48:23 for the record I have absolutely 0 concerns with this salary and do not think it's excessive 17:49:22 rehrar: Thanks for clarifying 17:49:59 Sorry for starting a fire on Reddit over the rehrar thing lol 17:50:29 I was very confused as I had no idea that was paid out of general fund/was a full time gig 17:51:21 It just jumps out as weird since the CCS exists and aids in transparency on what we're funding with donations 17:51:32 Do we have an estimate on when the general fund will be empty at this pace? If i understood correctly the amount of donations at the moment is not nearly enough to sustain the current expenses. 17:51:34 So to circumvent/be outside of that system that all others go through makes it seem... odd 17:53:42 Personally, i think that since the salary is taken from the generald fund, which is made by donations, there should be even more transparency than the average ccs proposals (for which we require a great deal of details) from core. But that's just my opinion 17:54:33 It should just go through the CCS, with all that entails 17:54:57 ErCiccione[m]: agree, especially if the general fund will be empty in 1-2 years 17:54:58 Unless someone can share a compelling reason this avoids all the norms/things we tell people wanting to get paid to contribute 17:58:07 core team felt there was value in having some accountable to us that could do generalist stuff 17:58:38 it should probably be noted that the gen fund was much larger back in 2017; a violent bear market and status quo bias has certainly changed that reality 18:05:01 That's the explanation that was given in the post and from the reaction on reddit and here doesn't seem to be enough. As i said, personally i think more transparency is needed (more than the average CCS proposal). Especially if we want people to donate to the general fund to keep that work going. 18:07:19 Perhaps moving to a 50-50 would be best? 18:07:26 50 / 50 ? 18:07:29 50 GF, 50 CCS? 18:07:57 I'm not sure why "accountable to Core" is distinct from going via CCS for funding 18:08:03 I don’t think getting paid from the GF is the problem, the problem is that there is no transparency. 18:08:13 I'm all for rehrar helping out with general stuff for Core, thats a much-needed role! 18:09:07 It should be noted this is kind of hilariously a moot point given the scant donations to the GF. :D 18:09:22 But yes, if we want to increase that there will probably need to be transparency moving forward. 18:09:22 Its definitely a different point because of that lol 18:09:31 But for your own sustainability wouldnt CCS be the right path? 18:09:39 Accountability to the core team, transparency to the community? 18:09:50 for sure 18:09:51 Even after this post now all we heard was "generalist stuff" which means nothing concrete. 18:10:02 CCS comes with the idea of accountability to the community. 18:11:01 the general fund has a new and very nice donation address ......... 18:11:04 888tNkZrPN6JsEgekjMnABU4TBzc2Dt29EPAvkRxbANsAnjyPbb3iQ1YBRk1UXcdRsiKc9dhwMVgN5S9cQUiyoogDavup3H 18:11:26 My point can be summed in: if money from the core fund are used, there should be complete transparency and detail about how the funds are spent (more than a CCS, to have a concrete reference). I agree with selsta that "generalist stuff" doesn't really mean anything. 18:11:38 Here, I can summarize a lot of my work here in this channel of you give me some minutes. 18:12:00 wow rehrar gets paid 7000 xmr a month 18:12:05 lol 18:12:06 And it can answer some of the questions selsta might have for generalist things. 18:13:29 Thanks rehrar! 18:13:58 I don't think that's the way the report should be done imo. Cannot be a chat between us, i think should be something more serious 18:14:44 I'll summarize my thoughts: If this remains GF-funded, I'd recommend a quarterly report on what you've worked on/focused on in that period. I would thing CCS-funding is preferable, and if agreed, just move the funding to that and use CCS like others for milestones/accountability with a quarterly/monthly report. 18:15:09 ErCiccione[m] its a good start to bring clarity here, but yeah, it needs to be in front of the better part of the community when ready/regularly 18:15:19 moving to a CCS model is certainly fine with us 18:16:55 It would probably help with sustainability as well IMO 18:17:15 Relying on the GF is more spotty (I would think) and at risk of losing funding since it receives almost no donations compared to CCSs 18:17:16 the community will make its will known either way as far as the value and sustainability of the job 18:17:27 but there is more automatic transparency with ccs 18:17:58 Now I say this as a purely selfish thing 18:18:06 but the odds of me getting a similar salary on the CCS is quite slim. 18:18:15 (at home now so on a keyboard and can respond faster) 18:18:38 People in the nerd circle don't value "soft skills". People skills. Making things happen skills. Non-coding skills. 18:19:16 Some will, but many (most?) won't. So they will see my salary as excessive. My CCS's will not get funded, and I will have to reduce the ask, which, for the amount of work I pour into Monero is kind of sad to me. 18:19:25 Hopefully you'd be wrong 18:19:41 I think people realize your value since you've been so consistent for years 18:19:53 But thats also where transparency on what you've done/are doing will help show why you're well worth that cost 18:20:47 I would happily fund it, but I'm also more involved than basically anyone outside of this channel/dev channel 18:20:56 What's some of the things I do? Well, Monero is not just one hive mind or community. It's not just on IRC. It's on Discord, Reddit, Telegram, Mattermost, Slack, and more. Most people stick to one or just a couple. Some people don't use any, and just pop up to help with Defcon or C3 or other conferences. 18:21:21 I certainly don't think $84k per year is excessive at all, especially considering you get no 401k, health insurance, etc. 18:21:26 ^^ 18:21:43 But I do think trying to work on 3 month increments and define tangible milestones is probably more difficult for you rehrar 18:21:46 A good portion of my job is keeping up with all of these spaces. Knowing who is where, and who does what, and who to refer people to. Just recently there was questions about who was holding a domain name, and because I was in the proper channels at the proper times (last year), I knew where to find out. 18:22:13 jwinterm: I think milestones would be detrimental to my work, if I'm being honest. 18:22:39 I don't disagree, but I'm just pointing out that is how the ccs has worked in 100% of cases so far afair 18:22:52 Setting out an inalienable path that has to be followed for three months, even if something more urgent arises. The freedom to be able to think on my feet and decide on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis what needs urgent work is what has helped the most imo. 18:22:54 some of them are becoming pretty open ended 18:23:06 maybe just sarang 18:23:13 sarang and mooo 18:23:21 oh and moo, forgot about him 18:23:24 mooo is very much "I'll work on what needs to be done" 18:23:25 his like grandfathered in 18:23:30 he's* 18:23:30 but yes, sarang and mooo are kind of the only two. 18:23:51 Is this problematic? 18:23:58 /r/doomero! monero contributor gets paid! reddit community on suicide watch 18:23:59 ErCiccione[m]: would you prefer a blog post format of my list of major accomplishments? 18:24:09 sarang: no. relax. 18:24:13 ok 18:24:32 Open-ended CCS is fine for you rehrar since obviously your position isn't a concrete "I do these dev things" role 18:24:33 yes sarang, you'll have to do this incredible list of things now 18:24:37 lol 18:24:48 "make math" 18:24:54 *meth 18:24:57 o_0 18:24:58 no thx 18:25:10 Thats why I think: CCS for funding (provides community oversight/funding) and regular reports of whats been worked on 18:25:40 So you can just backfill "milestones/deliverables" instead of committing to certain ones 18:25:44 * sarang goes back to work on proof notation 18:25:49 sarang: no bro 18:25:52 give your thoughts ;) 18:25:52 is that how you make meth? 18:26:26 I think the primary goal going forward should be clear expectations 18:27:01 So folks can be informed and decide if they choose to contribute or not, whether to a CSS or to a general fund 18:27:24 ^^ 18:28:24 (but seriously, this proof notation is super irritating...) 18:29:59 tru re: moo 18:30:51 I am clocked into a timesheet all day. But I am near the top of the food chain, so half of my time or less is actually billable to a client. In those cases, i must be specific because the client needs justification for what they pay for. For the rest of the time, my timesheet descriptions are dog shit because I'm bouncing around, talking to employees, answering emails, and a large part of my time 18:30:51 consists of being distracted for little admin or unbillable fire drills. From my timesheets, it looks like I don't do shit. I imagine it'd be the same with rehrar 18:30:52 jwinterm: mooo 18:33:22 Rehrar: my point is that there should be some kind of structure. Sarang makes monthly reports, mooo makes monthly reports and all his commits are public. 18:33:35 i'm valuable.. really! but it's hard to show it aside from being available, having expertise, and coming through when people ask things of me. 18:34:15 scoobybejesus: this is correct 18:34:46 I do have some major accomplishments, for sure, but a lot of the work is keeping up with everything, talking with people, managing little fires before they turn into big fires, etc. 18:35:19 And in some instances, the little act of being available, sitting down and talking with people (while also knowing my stuff) has paid big dividends. 18:36:07 A big example is Cake Wallet. When Vik first came on the scene, I was first to start talking to him (when his wallet was closed and people were mad at him). He was new to this world, and I not only walked with him about how Monero works (technology and community), but also walked with him in convincing him to choose a FOSS license, and worked with him on which would be best. 18:36:24 I doubt that would be an issue because of how long/consistent you've been with the community, and how involved you've been. 18:36:28 I don't see why the community wouldn't appreciate such effort, especially knowing that the core team sponsored it for years 18:36:47 It doesn't have to be this "I delivered 9 things", just an overview so people see that funding is providing something 18:37:13 Just more visibility instead of the current 0 visibility :) 18:37:17 Research sometimes feels like this, regarding deliverables 18:37:37 There are some topics that result in clear deliverables 18:37:41 and others that do not 18:37:56 fort3hlulz ErCiccione[m] I see what you're saying, but again, reiterating scoobybejesus's point, a good portion of that would be 'keeping up with the community', and it may fly for a one proposal or two, but then people are going to grumble, "why are we paying 7k for someone to read Telegram?" :P 18:37:57 "lots of math on paper that ended up not working as expected" or something :/ 18:38:38 sarang: yes this also happens. Research and test deployments into FOSS infrastructure are an example. 18:38:43 And my point in all of this is 18:39:13 sarang knows how this feels (as stated above), but ultimately people trust him and his 'deliverables' are quite clear after several months with hindsight. 18:39:25 Many of my 'deliverables' are the community is taken care of, healthy, and there are no major fires. 18:39:41 So the rearview mirror just shows clear road and clear skies. To the untrained eye, it looks like nothing happened. 18:39:44 So it looks like I did nothing. 18:39:58 the other side is, if community is unhappy with lack of transparency now, then they won't fund the general fund and your job will go away for sure 18:40:01 Whereas without my work, there would have probably been many more bumps along the way, and it would only be visible in the hindsight if I wasn't around. 18:40:26 I'm not arguing to not put out reports, necessarily. 18:40:34 I'm just saying that the reports will also be the death of my job. :) 18:40:56 so it's a catch 22. I don't do transparency, and I lose the job, or I do do transparency, and I lose the job, just for different reasons. 18:41:04 you're being a fatalist and saying your job will end regardless? :P 18:41:14 I am being a realist and saying 'yes'. 18:41:27 fatalists tend to think they are realists 18:41:29 It's better to go down the transparency route though, so I think that's what I'll recommend to core to do. 18:41:50 I think if you genuinely don't see a CCS getting funded, and Core thinks you're well worth the money, then keep funding out of GF and just publish reports when you can 18:41:51 luigi1111w: I'll keep working as if my job will continue, of course. 18:42:01 I still think CCS would get funded, but obviously I cant speak for everyone 18:42:16 well CCS is an option for gen fund too 18:42:21 Once again, I think a 50-50 might be something to explore? But if core kicks me off and wants me on CCS, then I'll open a proposal. 18:42:28 rehrar can run a ccs, and the gen fund can fund the shortfall (to ccs) 18:42:47 at least for a trial basis or whatever 18:42:52 Yeah I think thats a great idea 18:43:38 I expect a good amount of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/hjixed/general_fund_transparency_report_2019_june_2020/fwp3k29/ 18:43:39 [REDDIT] General Fund Transparency Report (2019 - June 2020) (https://web.getmonero.org/2020/06/30/gf-transparency-report.html) to r/Monero | 36 points (88.0%) | 31 comments | Posted by Rehrar | Created at 2020-07-01 - 20:57:43 18:44:18 I would hope not 18:44:23 I disagree with the language used but a transparency report that says we pay someone Xk / month without saying what for exactly is going to result in backslash. 18:44:24 Note on that comment in particular, I didn't schedule either of those things. :P I was given the task of running the coffee chat by sgp cuz he would be absent, I said sure, I showed up on the day and found out something else was scheduled, and made the decision to postpone. 18:44:45 I disagree with the language used but a transparency report that says we pay someone Xk / month without saying what for exactly is going to result in backslash. <- this 18:44:45 Isn't an assessment of value precisely why CCS is useful? 18:45:18 one last thing to say 18:45:25 if the community thinks I'm useful vs if core thinks I'm useful 18:45:41 currently core is paying me and I'm accountable to them. If they think I'm useful to them, then I'm doing my job. 18:45:45 Even if community doesn't. 18:46:00 (though I understand that means GF won't get funds and so will of community is played out in the long term) 18:46:56 With how hands-off core is, I don't see them making a big statement about my usefulness, even if these things have been said in private. Which, I'll be honest, is a little disappointing. 18:47:10 agree 18:47:51 which just leaves me to the whims of the community as the only voice. I can defend myself, but the bias is obviously present, and it will be easy to discount what I say. 18:48:41 honestly I think working on 3 month contracts at the whim of crazy internet folks is terrifying 18:48:54 btw - i am curious about the stuff that happens on a day to day basis, whether milestones or little crap... but i still agree that core hired you, and it's up to core to tell the community why they value your services 18:49:27 Again, I think the key element ought to be clear expectations 18:50:10 i love clear expectation 18:50:12 s 18:51:04 I'm happy to give an 'average day in the life of Diego' 18:51:10 allow me to do so now 18:51:13 Diego TV 18:51:17 :o 18:52:39 I work 6-7 hours a day. Every day. Meaning 7 days a week. I get no PTO or vacation days (except when I heavily overwork hours like with defcon) and want some time off). If we think just 6 hours a day, that times 7 days a week is a 42 hour work week, so I'm hitting my 'full time' quota there. But it's often more, especially towards the latter part of the year (Defcon/C3). 18:52:41 I think core values him because they are "volunteers" in their free time, and taking payment isn't a good option. Diego does the things that we don't want to or don't have time for or don't see. 18:54:16 Just under half of that is 'keeping up with the community' on all of the platforms. Should we put more resources in Discord? Most scrubs use it. Talk with the Telegram people about our two rooms. Clean out spam. Look through IRC logs. Mattermost. Reddit. Something to act on? Something to discuss with Core about? Are there old things that core hasn't responded to me about that I need to get their info on 18:54:16 (common) 18:55:25 the rest of the hours depends on the time of year. Again, the latter half of the year, come July, is often spent on Defcon/C3 related things. Please note: I do NOT get paid (either travel or for hours) when I do any conference activities outside of Defcon or C3. 18:55:47 Defended where I could speak to on thread. I wouldn't worry too much about naysayers who don't even know you don't live in Germany :) 18:56:08 So last year I went to WCC in Vegas, I went to HCPP, and Tabconf. All of these were either a CCS proposal (for travel, not time) or self funded. 18:56:52 Re: General Fund depletion, wasn't there some mention by you rehrar on a 'sekret' project to ease donation, or some such? 18:57:11 Other work includes things like working on this transparency report (combing through all of that raw data), working on internal audits for CCS things and the wallets, recently I've been conducting interviews with people in this lull time of crypto to see where major contributors think we are and where we should be going. 18:57:33 I run some meetings, I gather feedback, I try to prevent fires, and routinely check up with the different workgroups to both make sure they're taken care of and don't need anything. 18:58:00 I made a new system for MRL ( that was ultimately not used) so sarang doesn't have to worry about funding, etc. 18:58:38 Alternatively, would anyone be against creating an Open Collective thing for general fund to enable reoccuring fiat contributions? 18:58:39 Previous work that I no longer do much of includes website work, Kovri work (I was one of the few who stuck around to deal with anonimal when everyone else jumped ship because of the working conditions), putting out the fire that was Kovri when it tanked 18:59:15 ErCiccione[m] could need help with reviewers on the website repo 18:59:35 as far as I can see 18:59:43 yes, selsta and that's something I'm willing to help with if not for one thing. 19:00:18 I've been at this for two and a half years, and the first year and a half or so, Monero consumed my existence. It wasn't uncommon for me to blow past my hours with one week still remaining in the month. 19:00:53 This wasn't healthy, and I've made a big effort to keep the 6-7 hours per day, and after my time is up, I make myself do other things. 19:01:19 But you're right, if that's the big thing that needs urgent help these days, then that's where I should put my focus. 19:01:43 I will definitely have more time than usual, I think. Since Defcon is digital (although I may be proved hilariously wrong on how I think that would decrease the workload) 19:02:05 selsta: does this kind of answer your question? 19:02:29 yes and I think it should be written down somewhere on non IRC 19:02:34 sorry I've been away since normal work has me "clocked in" so to speak, how absurd I know :p 19:03:15 jumping into changes like 50/50 without first focusing on the other concerns seems super premature to me 19:04:15 like, focus on just sharing what you do more clearly in a marketable way. Core **should** do this, but in the absence of this, offer to do it yourself rehrar (or demand to do it for your job's safety) and bill those hours as necessary 19:04:23 I don't want to sound pedantic rehrar, but that's quite common for regulars who open a ccs proposal. I challenge anybody to tell me i work and worked the amount of hours i'm paid for :P (except for the last couple of weeks probably). Same for mooo. That doesn't mean that should be expected tho, i see your point and the effort is obviously appreciated. 19:05:57 I agree with sgp, and now i shut up because i think and hope i made made my opinion clear :) 19:07:19 I mean, rehrar has that thick German accent 19:07:23 so it's a common mistake 19:08:37 sgp_ I agree it's premature to make changes; I didn't mean to come off as suggesting them, just trying to come across not as "our way or the highway" 19:09:39 I don't exactly know if anyone was, but I read that talk super far up and was a little shocked lol. Like settle down people :p 19:13:16 random question from Vik that maybe fluffypony would know the answer to: has anyone tried to submit the Monero logo to Unicode? 19:13:55 Logos are specifically excluded from Unicode submissions 19:13:58 https://unicode.org/emoji/proposals.html 19:14:09 check section 6 19:14:29 is Bitcoin in unicode? 19:15:05 yes as a currency symbol 19:15:09 the Monero logo isn't a currency symboll 19:15:12 *symbol 19:15:13 okay, got it 19:15:22 well let's change that 19:15:24 :) 19:15:28 https://unicode-table.com/en/20BF/ 19:16:01 what would the Monero M look like 19:16:02 monero is *the* currency, its symbol should be a currency symbol 19:16:15 its logo should be a currency symbol 19:16:18 (not to distract too much, we can come back to the more important conversation haha) 19:16:18 or something 19:17:08 "the symbol is this right here" as we point to the current logo 19:17:22 rehrar: the things you listed now can also be included in a transparency report on what you work on exactly 19:17:31 _M_ 19:17:34 lowercase m with a strikethrough 19:18:34 I disagree with the "they wouldn’t understand / appreciate me anyway" approach 19:19:02 Wouldn't that conflict with a M w/ an actual strikethrough though? I feel like it would get rejected on that ambiguity basis 19:23:06 _M_ 19:24:08 selsta: that's my suspicion, but I'll see about doing it your guys' way anyways 19:25:24 fwiw ErCiccione[m] also did a more management role with translations and got funded every time from CCS (with some struggles sometimes :P) 19:25:37 sure some people disagreed but it worked overall 19:25:50 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/rvqqEF9S/bad_example 19:25:57 bad example but you get the idea 19:27:13 What about the M with a circle around it... or is that too logo-like, even as an outline 19:27:13 And we can fairly that a global truth is tat people don't care at all about translations. Or they care when theu find them ready to use :P 19:28:14 * fairly say (sorry, i make even more typos with the phone) 19:28:42 Anyone in the community have a background in symbology or vexillology by chance that it wouldn't hurt to consult, etc with? 19:30:10 If you look at the existing currency symbols, the standard is two parallel slashes through a roman alphabet character for roman alphabet based languages 19:30:18 https://unicode-table.com/en/sets/currency-symbols/ 19:30:29 But would anyone recognize that as referring to Monero? 19:30:55 rehrar: I guess since this is mostly up to you, are you going to take on a more leadership role and show what you're working on, or is that something you and/or Core do not want you to do? 19:31:50 Given Monero is Esperanto based I would suggest maybe a lower m/ two horizontal slashes? 19:33:40 *lower m w/ 19:35:04 Reddit pushed back since Reddit pushes back on everything. They are super mean/rude lol 19:35:24 "we made this movie #1 in the US! wow!" Reddit: "not even a movie smh" 19:35:59 sarang: Eventually yes. I mean it's close enough to the M on the logo. Should it get added to unicode you could then mention it on SNS, get exchanges to use it, etc 19:36:01 being overly critical is a Monero disease sometimes 19:37:48 I would argue the every person doesn't even know what the etymology behind the dollar sign is, they only know it because of usage everywhere 19:37:56 *everyday person 19:40:06 If you look at a physical USD, there is no $ to be found on it, for example https://searx.tuxcloud.net/image_proxy?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.gFQmdX0advBf5v41op7PHQHaGe%26pid%3DApi&h=2afea746520a7964b68964822273567ba3dcdb895ddddf364295e0f927c95eb3 19:40:16 true 19:47:08 Sgp_ i wouldn't disregard the feedback on reddit like that. Even if i disagree with the terms and accusations. The comments clearly show that more transparency is badly needed and i agree with that sentiment. There is also a lot of confusion, which shows that the blog post didn't achieve its goal. 19:47:32 we don’t want to community to get suspicious of core team 19:48:19 while reddit is usually awful they had a point here 19:48:30 don't take my comments to the extreme of saying we shouldn't ever listen to Reddit, but I also want to point out they are usually super critical of even good efforts 19:57:46 hi 19:57:51 :) 19:58:29 hi 19:58:38 hi 20:00:07 From iOS test 20:00:25 irccloud works quite well on iOS 20:00:38 I also use it :P 20:00:52 yep.. Justin helped me set it right 20:00:56 :) 20:03:46 Bitcoins proposal for unicode that was accepted, FWIW 20:03:50 http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2015/15229-bitcoin-sign.pdf 20:05:07 So basically, symbol usage needs to precede unicode symbol 20:05:36 Perhaps a simple and clear outline of the M-with-circle logo? 20:05:54 It's certainly not even remotely as ubiquitous as the bitcoin symbol 20:06:03 and is, of course, a logo 20:07:28 so who is gonna take it up? I say Justin :) 20:07:33 lol 20:07:36 Yeah, I don't think it would fly w/ Unicode Consortium given the logo-ness 20:07:47 I will help of course but we need to first agree on the icon 20:08:04 I would suggest introducing a non-logo symbol via the GUI, etc and building from the ground up (e.g. Wikipedia, exchanges) 20:08:20 Then you'd have a stronger case 20:08:59 like xmr.ru telegram logo? 20:11:45 Maybe a few can be drafted by people here, maybe ran by designer folk like dsc, xiphon, rehrar, and then a poll ran on r/xmrtrader or something? 20:11:56 *maybe ran by designer folk 20:12:38 s/ran by/ran through 20:12:38 xmrscott[m] meant to say: *maybe ran through designer folk 20:14:54 vikrants: test 20:16:27 How about this for a more formal timeline. I create an issue on meta today. People submit proposals there. Said proposals are reviewed next commnunity meeting (7/11). Any ones that have strong opposition are dropped, list given to dsc, xiphon, rehrar or whoever to collect commentary. After 1-2 weeks, a poll is ran on xmrtrader and Blockfolio (people most likely to use said symbol) to get better consensus. 20:16:27 Winning symbol is then added to GUI, wikipedia to start. Where it goes from there, who knows. 20:17:26 đŸ‘đŸœ 20:19:28 so what is with ɱ ? 20:19:32 ^ 20:19:36 I thought that was the logo 20:19:36 That's what I thought too. 20:20:21 Or at least that that had the most support behind it. 20:20:28 oh cool.. you can do avatars 20:20:29 Ah, herpa derp 20:20:44 getting something added to unicode will be unlikely, also ɱ is used already in some places 20:20:47 I mean I wouldn't say it's won by any means. 20:22:49 It is listed under Wikipedia and elsewhere as the symbol being ɱ though 20:23:54 So Vik's question which started this is answered I believe 20:25:21 Wikipedia also said Luigi was the boss for a while there. 20:25:23 luigi1111: 20:25:37 ^ 20:26:57 xmrscott[m]: project manager expert 😎 20:27:31 I'm the boss now 20:31:55 The reasoning for rehrar to be on GF vs. CCS was explained in December: https://web.getmonero.org/2019/12/03/core-team-general-fund.html section "Current usage of the General Fund" 20:33:09 It's worth nothing the symbol used, ɱ, is part of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) set in Unicode. There's technically no reason one couldn't push for a symbol that is more reflective of existing currency, even if it isn't adopted by Unicode. The downside being it might cause confusion to have two symbols 20:33:26 Oof. binaryFate coming in hot. 20:33:51 * It's worth nothing the symbol used, ɱ, is part of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) set in Unicode. There's technically no reason one couldn't push for a symbol that is more reflective of existing currency symbology, even if it isn't adopted by Unicode. The downside being it might cause confusion to have two symbols 20:33:56 Sorry I have no time to catch up with logs so just dropping that :) 20:34:59 The question then becomes, is anyone here really interested in pushing for adoption of a more currnecy-like symbol for Monero, or believes the broader Monero community like traders cares? 20:36:22 (Perhaps this is something best reserved for the next community meeting) 20:41:49 Coffee Chat viewers, even 20:42:21 binaryFate: I just posted on reddit 20:50:29 the december link does not really address things 20:50:50 hope we will get something more detailed else I will be disappointed :S 21:08:59 Monthly research report is now posted: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/hk5gcp/june_monthly_report_from_sarang_noether/ 21:09:00 [REDDIT] June monthly report from Sarang Noether (self.Monero) | 1 points (100.0%) | 1 comments | Posted by SarangNoether | Created at 2020-07-02 - 21:07:18 21:09:03 good bot 21:14:18 That CCS can presumably be moved from Work in Progress to Completed Tasks 21:20:11 selsta what exactly doesn't it address? 21:20:37 Just wondering. :) What exactly needs to be in my summaries to please the max amount of people. 21:20:55 it addresses the why but not the what you are doing 21:21:06 I think people are more curious about the what side 21:26:36 I sit all day and play video games and get paid for it. 21:31:06 I don't see how that blog poat relates to the conversation as well. The 'why' is known and was never in discussion. 21:31:06 see sarang’s monthly writeup 21:31:26 that would be ideal transparency 21:32:46 the other extreme is saying "nerds wouldn’t understand / appreciate it anyway" :D 21:35:28 Guys let's be straight about this: the core team decided to spend money to hire somebody and to pay him using the GF, but decided to disclose it only 2 years later. This IMHO was not a good move. Now people are asking for more transparency in the way the money spent are going to benefit the project and the amswer was a very generalistic blog post who didn't really satisfy the community. 21:36:17 Personally, i think this was not handled very well and more transparency is being asked. 21:40:19 You're conflating something ErCiccione[m]. The general fund transparency report was how the general fund money was being spent, which was reported ok accurately. A rehrar transparency report is a separate thing. I'm not faulting the community for wanting this report, but it's a different thing than general fund transparency. 21:41:16 I really hope the core team will make the right calls here, because i would hate to see the trust between core and community being questioned. 21:41:42 that report is a summary of the past. are people saying we're bad off and money was misspent? 21:43:12 core team hired rehrar (which is ok) but has not been transparent on what rehrar’s job is exactly 21:43:51 and when asked the answers have been kinda vague 21:44:28 why would anyone expect otherwise? are you expecting an HR department to provide you with a formal job description? 21:44:35 Rehrar: i'm talking about the way these info are disclosed. I'm still of the opinion that the "report" about what you do should have come from core. A simply "he help us with general stuff" is not enough 21:46:20 dunno, looking at all the things he has done, that sounds like the most accurate description 21:46:30 Basically, what selsta said in better wording :) 21:47:18 general fund are community donations so some amount of transparency would be appreciated 21:47:27 (in my opinion) 21:48:01 I don't think core would be opposed to me writing this thing. 21:48:41 As sgp said, if I say I want to write it they'll probably say "k". :P 21:49:11 hey, let's look and see if this is covered in your job description. oh wait 21:54:03 Wouldn't be weird if they would stop you from making a report? Why would they do that? I don't understand how is that related to asking more transparency to them. 21:54:05 ErCiccione[m]> Guys let's be straight about this: the core team decided to spend money to hire somebody and to pay him using the GF, but decided to disclose it only 2 years later < the arrangement has been public for.....pardon my fuzzy memory....well over a year. Has it been shouted from the rooftops? no. Was the amount disclosed? no 21:55:00 rehrar: please write your jerb description kthxbai 21:58:19 niocbrrrrrr: no. The fact that money from the general fund where used to hire somebody was disclosed 2 years later AFAIK. I understand that was core's choice, but i disagree with the choice fwiw. I feel like the point of the discussion is shifting now. I made my opinion known well enough i think. 21:59:02 without sarcasm: people appear to want to see what Rehrar does, I have no reason why we would want to prevent that. 22:00:04 I knew about core paying rehrar from the general fund because it was mentioned several times on irc 22:01:06 it was also mentioned when he worked part time and it was mentioned when he changed to full time 22:01:28 yes this is a minor point but it was known 22:01:35 I don't know the timeframe you are referring to. I remembwr speaking with rehrar when the announcement came out and he confirmed the fact wasn't disclosed before. 22:01:47 How the fuck did the GF wallet end up owing the CCS wallet $250,000? 22:02:06 (sorry if this has been covered already) 22:02:13 250k? 22:02:20 it was discussed, but not publicly stated (as in reddit and stuff) ErCiccione[m] 22:02:31 there were discussions on IRC about it 22:02:38 Oh 22:02:40 565 xmr is not $250k 22:02:41 My bad 22:02:47 LOL 22:03:05 .c 250000 / 565 22:03:05 scoobybejesus: 442.4778761 22:03:16 make it so 22:03:18 would be nice 22:04:18 rehrar: i don't understand. Maybe was discussed live between people, but i would say i've been around for quite some time and i had no idea utill it was made public. 22:04:32 I also never read about it :P 22:04:37 not that this is important IMO 22:04:49 semantics at this point 22:05:15 Yeah that's not the point. 22:06:25 well if the point is that people want transparency on what I do in the form of a write up, then I have said that I'm willing to do it, luigi, speaking for core, has said that they don't have an issue with it 22:06:29 so at that point...? 22:07:28 to be fair, while nobody doubts the work that rehrar does, some more transparency would have been nice. I think that's all 22:07:46 I'm going to bed. I think many people made the point clear. I really hope transparency and communication will be improved or i forsee problems later on. Goodnight everybody 22:08:42 I do wonder why someone like sarang has to worry about a rolling 3 month CCS, while rehrar doesn't. But maybe that shouldn't be an issue. 22:09:24 We don't want MRL directly answerable to core 22:09:43 that doesn't sound a valid answer 22:10:09 that's a hugely valid answer. Decentralization is very important and sensitive in that area. 22:10:20 If it's for neutrality, you have community sway, which is also important for consensus 22:11:16 plus, you also have control a lot of "community mediums/servers/sites, etc" 22:11:30 So it's a clear point of centralisation, either way 22:14:15 but anyways. I think the report is a good thing. I am glad that GF doesn't owe $250,000 to the CCS wallet. And I think you do a good job rehrar. I am, however, extremely annoyed that you thought $40 was too much for one of the best aquariums that we could have gone too a while back, as I now know how much you make. But whatevs. 22:14:59 wait I never got my aquarium 22:15:03 You literally have zero idea as to my expenses you dingus. 22:15:19 dude. Bubble Tea is on YOU next time 22:16:02 luigi1111w: fix tippero and I'll get you an aquarium 22:16:09 !balance 22:16:12 ugh 22:16:17 .seen tippero 22:16:17 niocbrrrrrr: I last saw tippero at 2019-12-02 - 00:41:11 in another channel. 22:16:21 my moreno :( 22:16:30 I had a whale wallet there 22:16:41 I had 0.5 22:17:00 enough for an aquarium 22:17:27 i can act as the new tippero 22:17:53 dsc_: send my balance to the GF 22:17:54 !deposit 22:17:54 niocbrrrrrr: I could send you a clear plastic bag of water for that 22:17:55 89kUDgn4cWMZr3kqgen496hX4rzRLxMk3igFWgzaNxy9gfSPkXmGr1x5MwDNp2GQyx8HD4h4H1CzRHj8uMCeHYmXEibizJB 22:18:07 w0w someone updated tippero to use subaddresses 22:18:08 lol 22:18:22 selsta is the new eth doubler 22:18:22 newtippero: niocbrrr sent you 0.5 xmr, but I kept it 22:18:46 hyc is also a tippero? getting confusing now!! 22:19:03 ;) 22:20:21 midipoet: overseas shipping is expensive now 22:20:58 ok. I'll just send the plastic bag. 22:21:17 luigi1111w: today is the day to merge supercop pr :D 22:23:28 how have I not done that yet 22:24:10 done 22:24:38 yay 22:59:10 lol midipoet what an odd set of things to say. People don't need to waste money on things they don't want to lol 23:01:00 it sounded more like a joke? :P 23:04:26 hopefully 23:07:39 anyway, let is be said that I as a community member would like to see a report of some kind. And I also think that the scope of the role to include some "project management" would be extremely useful. He already does a bunch of communication so might as well help write stuff down 23:38:36 I as a bagholder would like to see a report detailing when monero will be pumped as well as future announcements 23:38:54 I meant community member 23:54:03 .nextMEAannounce 23:54:05 xmrscott: The next MEA announcement is scheduled for 2020/12/23 23:54:41 .pump 23:54:41 xmrscott: Proceeding to prime the pumps