I'm just going to copy bills on my own printer

bless your little noic ❤︎

Now is arguably one of the best times for forgeries given services are overwhelmed and you won't stand out too much for wearing a mask

*not an actual endorsement of illicit activities

kinghat[m]: thank you for that link.

to be honest, the anonymity question is being lost at the moment, and in a big way. The blockchain sector is complicit in this, as far as i see it.

there isn't much room for anonymous (or even user controlled and maintained pseudonymity) as the Hyperledger/Ethereum based architectures do not allow for it at the moment a meaningful way.

kinghat[m]: the Coral article is very good

also this one: harrytdyer.com/2017/01/04/online-an…ymity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly

Anyone know someone working at Binance (Research)?

Their entry about Monero's PoW here is erroneous -> twitter.com/BinanceResearch/status/1243108965925306368

i.e. it has not been updated yet to reflect the change to RandomX

thanks for those links as well midipoet

anyone know how those "Notice(xmr-pr)" messages are popping in here?

LZA_Menace: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_Relay_Chat_commands#NOTICE

huh, cool, thanks selsta

<tiedtoastar> hi

hi

ErCiccione[m] needmonero90 can we talk about the Persian translation please? I know the topic of sanctions is going to rile you both up and I want to help by providing a US compliance perspective

Giving funds to sanctioned countries carries enormous penalties, even if you do it unknowingly when you should have checked

Here, i think the problem of that proposal is not related to the sanctions at all as i said on my comment. Or the conversation wouldn't have started there

i understand that what happened was caused by the concern about the sanctions, but the execution and what that caused was simply wrong

posting somebody's "suspected" informations publicly because you suspect they come from a sanctioned country is just plain wrong. beside the fact that doing a "background check" of that kind is naive

is there drama?

+1, background checks should (if only) done by core team in private

midipoet: repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…sals/-/merge_requests/133#note_9493

should the community expect any checks from the core team to make sure donations aren't going to sanctioned regimes?

keeping in mind that no matter what your personal opinions are, faults could come with severe liability

not sure if it matters what the community expects

this is something core team has to decide

the core team is american?

well i never

If they feel there is the suspect they could be responsable of some illicit behaviour, they obviously have the right to investigate. What happened is not that

midipoet: it's not a legal entity AFAIK, but some of them might be

i don't see why they would be legally culpable if they are not an entity. i am not a lawyer, though - obviously

in any case, what happened in that issue is really bad and gives a really bad feeling IMO. Beside being absolutely useless from a compliance point of view

midipoet: short answer is I'm 100% sure that if you personally gave money to North Korea you would be personally liable

That's my feeling to midipoet, but i would understand if they were concerned, but still, that's not even remotely the point here

exactly, unless we engage in some KYC procedure for CCS proposals

Know Your Proposer (KYP).

would look weird though

KYC - Know Your CCS :p

sgp_: well that makes anonymous p2p internet money a bit dodgy then doesn't it?

midipoet: nope

i don't understand. you say that i am culpable if i send money to NK. how am i supposed to know an address is not controlled by somebody in NK?

i can't know, unless i engage in a KYC procedure

depends on whether you knew or should have known

sorry?

i "should" have known seems vague

spending xmr at your local grocery store? no reasonable expectation that you should have been suspicious

so the reasonable expectation is drawn from what then?

if i only have a public address?

guys, a guy was asked to provide proof that he is not iranian just because he has an iranian name and that's wrong and his "suspected" identity was posted publicly, that's the point and it's *wrong*.

there can't be any, without meta-data or attributable data. in this case, it was the language and name

Even then, any actual KYC would be pretty invasive. Like one could just post the name and address of a friend in the US, or whatever

So it'd need to be super invasive to counter stuff like that

exactly.

I'm trying to word this really carefully. You may find this wrong, but most businesses probably would have some identification info to limit their liability for any Persian translation commissions from an unknown person. Different than someone you're hiring in-person in, say, Istanbul or whatever

but who is hiring in your model in this instance?

core aren't a business, are they?

is the CCS a business/legal entity? maybe it is, i don't know

individuals are still legal individuals, so I don't see what you're getting at

i am trying to decipher who the culpability and liability is being attributed to in this case?

liability would most likely be on the ones who made or authorized the payment

I have the feeling that we are assuming the US are the world here :P

Honestly probably best to ping fluffy to get ahold of lawyers at Tari or something to bring actual resolution as to best practice

well, give me the keys to the CCS funds, i'll make the payments

i am in Ireland

ErCiccione[m]: that's kinda how compliance works lol, US was chair of FATF this round

i don't think we sanction anybody (though could be spectacularly wrong on that one)

sgp_: i think you missed my sarcasm ;)

sgp_: but you are discussing rules and regulations under the impression that the CCS is a money transmitter, correct?

no midipoet, not necessarily

though that could be a subset that applies too

midipoet, but then you'd risk never being able to come to US again, maybe extradition :(

the FATF guidelines don't include individuals, as far as i understood?

xmrscott[m]: pfft whatever

midipoet: you're thinking of the FinCEN Travel Rule

which is derived from a small part of the FATF guidelines :p

Anyway, if the core team fears sanctions, they should make it clear and provide different rules for the CCS. Like asking people to provide a proof the receipients doesn't lieve in a sanctioned country. That will IMO make monero become a joke, but hey... Otherwise, the problem here was investigating somebody just because they have an iranian name, which is very american, but still wrong

sgp_: ok, so what does the FATF guidelines say about individuals transferring money to individuals

ErCiccione[m]: it's probably best to at least say that CCS contributions can't come from individuals or entities with connections to OFAC sanctioned regimes

but this is entirely up to Core I guess since they're taking the liability

sgp_: how does zcash handle this?

selsta: good q, let me ask

Before anything official like is said by core members or well known community members it should really be consulted with a lawyer at the end of the day

contributions seems not too big of a deal, since they are anonymous we can take reasonable measures which ultimately means nothing

but paying out is something else entirely

sgp_: i strongly disagree with adding that to the rules, since IMO, Monero's point is to help people avoid this ridiculus sanctions to express their freedom, but as i said, if the core team want to do that, it's their prerogative, but let's expect the community to not take it well

"When you create a Grant, ZF Grants may require additional information about you and may obtain information about you from publicly available sources. We may also request additional information from you for other purposes, for example when such information is necessary to comply with applicable law."

receiving payments from Iran (or other country) is the same though, no?

its a similar liability

surely?

sure but we can only do what we can do

ErCiccione[m] +1

we can't stop people from donating afaik

Yeah, laundering money I would think

you can be expected to know your donator

i think it's nonsense myself

you can take reasonable steps

which in monero is basically nothing

lol

i have the solution:

did see the FATF just published this though

so maybe we are all fucked soon

(which i think we are)

it may be a concern if some entity attempts to use ccs to launder or whatever

let's ask people to add to their CCSsomething like "i declare i don't leave in a US sanctioned country" and that's it. We are reasonably informedand we can go on with our lifes

but an individual donor seems like not too big of an issue

i'm serious btw. That's just a self declaration, it's responsability of the single to don't lie about it. Since we cannot really investigate, we good

Ooo, published this month. Surprised I haven't seen any major commentary on it on Twitter or r/monero or r/cc

ErCiccione[m]: I think that's a reasonable step to reduce liability, given the CCS is used for legit use

luigi1111: i'm talking about the person opening the proposal

there's no reason to expect the CCS has been used to launder money before

that wasn't directed at you

sgp_: just put that sentence in the template and make people thick it. Problem solved

oh ok sorry

I want to clearly state something like this doesn't remove all liability, but it may be appropriate given the risk levels we see

xmrscott[m]: it is fresh off the press alright. the NIST one published recently was very good, to be fair.

i do think that it would be possible to create a CryptoNote/Monero based identity protocol.

it's actually something i have been thinking about for a while.

sgp_: what can yo do more? ask people if they lied about it? Don't think many will answer yes

who would be at risk if some legal entity were to pursue some legal action because the CCS sent funds to someone in a sanctioned country?

ErCiccione[m]: theoretically one could ask for proof of address, ID, etc. Again not ideal

Yes, I think some concern around CCS is warranted. Like, the gov does some sort of sting operation and takes out CCS, tries to go after at least known core members

sgp_: the day that happens is the day i disappear from here :P

i think all this concern is super exaggerated btw

I'm only advising here, not telling

i know :)

ErCiccione[m]: why would you leave, do YOU live in North Korea????? /s

yes, i've been reciclying all my CCS income to kim himself. Built some new education camps. Terrific stuff

ErCiccione[m]: i agree, i think its over exaggerated as well. however, i do see the attack vector/vulnerability. it would be a clever one

I do recommend having the proposer attest that they are not in a sanctioned country though, seems reasonable without being intrusive

seems like a fine step until we get some counsel or more clarity on things

maybe we should add a data_field for monero transactions as well.

;-)

tx_extra_kyc

sanctioned country? sanxtioned by whom?

AFAIK this project and community are not US orgs

True, but it would suck to see something like Virgil Griffith happen in the Monero community, regardless of the exact cicumstances around Virgil

you don't think if govt's were going to harass Monero devs, they wouldn't have already started by now?

just because your paranoid / don't mean they're not after you.

gotta find a way / a better way / to get away.

I'll ask a stupid question, my specialty...

is the US sanctioned by any other country?

capital restrictions may have a similar impact if I'm reading into your question correctly

we are only talking about US "laws"

are we following laws or avoiding action/enforcement

can we form a micronation and sanction the US?

<midipoet> Lol

sgp_: never assume that my input comes with a depth of knowledge :)

lol

monero talk episode with block pierce is now out lol. clicking play, wish me luck

<midipoet> I don't think Brock Pierce is that bad to be honest.. off in his own world, admittedly, but sometimes that's a good thing.

<midipoet> Then again, maybe I am a bad judge of character.

Remember that there's a community meeting tomorrow

For the fellow Matrix users on Linux, there's a new Matrix client called Mirage that may be worth checking out, especially if you like to have consistent programmable theming on your system: matrix.org/blog/category/this-week-in-matrix#dept-of-clients-

xmrscott: im using the riot flatpak. its nice. ty for the link