00:02:32 <nioc> I'm just going to copy bills on my own printer
00:31:01 <kinghat[m]> bless your little noic ❤︎
00:49:56 <xmrscott[m]> Now is arguably one of the best times for forgeries given services are overwhelmed and you won't stand out too much for wearing a mask
00:50:27 <xmrscott[m]> *not an actual endorsement of illicit activities
05:12:16 <kinghat[m]> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/03/right-anonymity-vital-free-expression-now-and-always
07:58:24 <midipoet> kinghat[m]: thank you for that link.
08:06:23 <midipoet> to be honest, the anonymity question is being lost at the moment, and in a big way. The blockchain sector is complicit in this, as far as i see it.
08:07:32 <midipoet> there isn't much room for anonymous (or even user controlled and maintained pseudonymity) as the Hyperledger/Ethereum based architectures do not allow for it at the moment a meaningful way.
08:13:27 <midipoet> kinghat[m]: the Coral article is very good
08:13:31 <midipoet> https://coralproject.net/blog/the-real-name-fallacy/
08:22:31 <midipoet> also this one: https://harrytdyer.com/2017/01/04/online-anonymity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/
11:59:40 <dEBRUYNE> Anyone know someone working at Binance (Research)?
11:59:47 <dEBRUYNE> Their entry about Monero's PoW here is erroneous -> https://twitter.com/BinanceResearch/status/1243108965925306368
11:59:47 <monerobux> [ Binance Research on Twitter: "What is @Monero? Monero is a Proof-of-Work cryptocurrency whose focus is on privacy, security, and untraceability. Community-oriented, it also focuses on ASIC resista ] - twitter.com
11:59:55 <dEBRUYNE> i.e. it has not been updated yet to reflect the change to RandomX
15:30:21 -xmr-pr- [meta] SarangNoether opened issue #451: Research meeting: 1 April 2020 @ 17:00 UTC
15:30:21 -xmr-pr- > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/451
15:52:31 <kinghat[m]> thanks for those links as well midipoet
16:37:48 <LZA_Menace> anyone know how those "Notice(xmr-pr)" messages are popping in here?
16:38:56 <selsta> LZA_Menace: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_Relay_Chat_commands#NOTICE
16:38:57 <monerobux> [WIKIPEDIA] List of Internet Relay Chat commands#NOTICE | "This is a list of all Internet Relay Chat commands from RFC 1459, RFC 2812, and extensions added to major IRC daemons. Most IRC clients require commands to be preceded by a slash ("/"). Some commands are actually sent to IRC bots; these are treated by the IRC protocol as ordinary messages, not as /-commands..."
16:39:48 <LZA_Menace> huh, cool, thanks selsta
16:44:31 <xmrmatterbridge> <tiedtoastar> hi
16:44:37 <LZA_Menace> hi
16:58:01 <sgp_> ErCiccione[m] needmonero90 can we talk about the Persian translation please? I know the topic of sanctions is going to rile you both up and I want to help by providing a US compliance perspective
17:00:39 <sgp_> Giving funds to sanctioned countries carries enormous penalties, even if you do it unknowingly when you should have checked
17:00:56 <ErCiccione[m]> Here, i think the problem of that proposal is not related to the sanctions at all as i said on my comment. Or the conversation wouldn't have started there
17:01:49 <ErCiccione[m]> i understand that what happened was caused by the concern about the sanctions, but the execution and what that caused was simply wrong
17:02:41 <ErCiccione[m]> posting somebody's "suspected" informations publicly because you suspect they come from a sanctioned country is just plain wrong. beside the fact that doing a "background check" of that kind is naive
17:02:56 <midipoet> is there drama?
17:03:10 <selsta> +1, background checks should (if only) done by core team in private
17:03:52 <ErCiccione[m]> midipoet: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/133#note_9493
17:03:53 <sgp_> should the community expect any checks from the core team to make sure donations aren't going to sanctioned regimes?
17:05:21 <sgp_> keeping in mind that no matter what your personal opinions are, faults could come with severe liability
17:05:26 <selsta> not sure if it matters what the community expects
17:05:35 <selsta> this is something core team has to decide
17:06:20 <midipoet> the core team is american?
17:06:24 <midipoet> well i never
17:06:29 <ErCiccione[m]> If they feel there is the suspect they could be responsable of some illicit behaviour, they obviously have the right to investigate. What happened is not that
17:07:10 <ErCiccione[m]> midipoet: it's not a legal entity AFAIK, but some of them might be
17:07:56 <midipoet> i don't see why they would be legally culpable if they are not an entity. i am not a lawyer, though - obviously
17:08:08 <ErCiccione[m]> in any case, what happened in that issue is really bad and gives a really bad feeling IMO. Beside being absolutely useless from a compliance point of view
17:08:33 <sgp_> midipoet: short answer is I'm 100% sure that if you personally gave money to North Korea you would be personally liable
17:08:36 <ErCiccione[m]> That's my feeling to midipoet, but i would understand if they were concerned, but still, that's not even remotely the point here
17:08:39 <midipoet> exactly, unless we engage in some KYC procedure for CCS proposals
17:08:56 <midipoet> Know Your Proposer (KYP).
17:09:02 <midipoet> would look weird though
17:09:20 <sgp_> KYC - Know Your CCS :p
17:09:34 <midipoet> sgp_: well that makes anonymous p2p internet money a bit dodgy then doesn't it?
17:09:46 <sgp_> midipoet: nope
17:10:15 <midipoet> i don't understand. you say that i am culpable if i send money to NK. how am i supposed to know an address is not controlled by somebody in NK?
17:10:33 <midipoet> i can't know, unless i engage in a KYC procedure
17:10:37 <sgp_> depends on whether you knew or should have known
17:10:57 <midipoet> sorry?
17:11:11 <midipoet> i "should" have known seems vague
17:11:16 <sgp_> spending xmr at your local grocery store? no reasonable expectation that you should have been suspicious
17:11:58 <midipoet> so the reasonable expectation is drawn from what then?
17:12:04 <midipoet> if i only have a public address?
17:12:12 <ErCiccione[m]> guys, a guy was asked to provide proof that he is not iranian just because he has an iranian name and that's wrong and his "suspected" identity was posted publicly, that's the point and it's *wrong*.
17:12:25 <midipoet> there can't be any, without meta-data or attributable data. in this case, it was the language and name
17:13:41 <xmrscott[m]> Even then, any actual KYC would be pretty invasive. Like one could just post the name and address of a friend in the US, or whatever
17:14:18 <xmrscott[m]> So it'd need to be super invasive to counter stuff like that
17:14:19 <midipoet> exactly.
17:14:21 <sgp_> I'm trying to word this really carefully. You may find this wrong, but most businesses probably would have some identification info to limit their liability for any Persian translation commissions from an unknown person. Different than someone you're hiring in-person in, say, Istanbul or whatever
17:14:54 <midipoet> but who is hiring in your model in this instance?
17:15:14 <midipoet> core aren't a business, are they?
17:15:28 <midipoet> is the CCS a business/legal entity? maybe it is, i don't know
17:15:31 <sgp_> individuals are still legal individuals, so I don't see what you're getting at
17:16:13 <midipoet> i am trying to decipher who the culpability and liability is being attributed to in this case?
17:16:36 <sgp_> liability would most likely be on the ones who made or authorized the payment
17:17:05 <ErCiccione[m]> I have the feeling that we are assuming the US are the world here :P
17:17:07 <xmrscott[m]> Honestly probably best to ping fluffy to get ahold of lawyers at Tari or something to bring actual resolution as to best practice
17:17:37 <midipoet> well, give me the keys to the CCS funds, i'll make the payments
17:17:39 <midipoet> i am in Ireland
17:17:46 <sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: that's kinda how compliance works lol, US was chair of FATF this round
17:17:56 <midipoet> i don't think we sanction anybody (though could be spectacularly wrong on that one)
17:18:28 <ErCiccione[m]> sgp_: i think you missed my sarcasm ;)
17:18:32 <midipoet> sgp_: but you are discussing rules and regulations under the impression that the CCS is a money transmitter, correct?
17:18:49 <sgp_> no midipoet, not necessarily
17:19:10 <sgp_> though that could be a subset that applies too
17:19:15 <xmrscott[m]> midipoet, but then you'd risk never being able to come to US again, maybe extradition :(
17:19:20 <midipoet> the FATF guidelines don't include individuals, as far as i understood?
17:19:31 <midipoet> xmrscott[m]: pfft whatever
17:19:39 <sgp_> midipoet: you're thinking of the FinCEN Travel Rule
17:19:59 <sgp_> which is derived from a small part of the FATF guidelines :p
17:20:49 <ErCiccione[m]> Anyway, if the core team  fears sanctions, they should make it clear and provide different rules for the CCS. Like asking people to provide a proof the receipients doesn't lieve in a sanctioned country. That will IMO make monero become a joke, but hey... Otherwise, the problem here was investigating somebody just because they have an iranian name, which is very american, but still wrong
17:21:01 <midipoet> sgp_: ok, so what does the FATF guidelines say about individuals transferring money to individuals
17:22:07 <sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: it's probably best to at least say that CCS contributions can't come from individuals or entities with connections to OFAC sanctioned regimes
17:22:34 <sgp_> but this is entirely up to Core I guess since they're taking the liability
17:23:01 <selsta> sgp_: how does zcash handle this?
17:23:12 <sgp_> selsta: good q, let me ask
17:23:24 <xmrscott[m]> Before anything official like is said by core members or well known community members it should really be consulted with a lawyer at the end of the day
17:23:42 <luigi1111w> contributions seems not too big of a deal, since they are anonymous we can take reasonable measures which ultimately means nothing
17:23:51 <luigi1111w> but paying out is something else entirely
17:23:51 <ErCiccione[m]> sgp_: i strongly disagree with adding that to the rules, since IMO, Monero's point is to help people avoid this ridiculus sanctions to express their freedom, but as i said, if the core team want to do that, it's their prerogative, but let's expect the community to not take it well
17:24:07 <sgp_> "When you create a Grant, ZF Grants may require additional information about you and may obtain information about you from publicly available sources. We may also request additional information from you for other purposes, for example when such information is necessary to comply with applicable law."
17:24:16 <midipoet> receiving payments from Iran (or other country) is the same though, no?
17:24:22 <midipoet> its a similar liability
17:24:26 <midipoet> surely?
17:24:31 <luigi1111w> sure but we can only do what we can do
17:24:38 <LZA_Menace> ErCiccione[m] +1
17:24:41 <luigi1111w> we can't stop people from donating afaik
17:24:44 <xmrscott[m]> Yeah, laundering money I would think
17:25:33 <midipoet> you can be expected to know your donator
17:25:42 <midipoet> i think it's nonsense myself
17:25:53 <luigi1111w> you can take reasonable steps
17:25:59 <luigi1111w> which in monero is basically nothing
17:26:03 <midipoet> lol
17:26:21 <ErCiccione[m]> i have the solution:
17:26:25 <midipoet> did see the FATF just published this though
17:26:26 <midipoet> https://www.fatf-gafi.org/media/fatf/documents/recommendations/pdfs/Guidance-on-Digital-Identity.pdf
17:26:31 <midipoet> so maybe we are all fucked soon
17:26:38 <midipoet> (which i think we are)
17:27:30 <luigi1111w> it may be a concern if some entity attempts to use ccs to launder or whatever
17:27:35 <ErCiccione[m]> let's ask people to add to their CCSsomething like "i declare i don't leave in a US sanctioned country" and that's it. We are reasonably informedand we can go on with our lifes
17:27:38 <luigi1111w> but an individual donor seems like not too big of an issue
17:27:55 <ErCiccione[m]> i'm serious btw. That's just a self declaration, it's responsability of the single to don't lie about it. Since we cannot really investigate, we good
17:28:08 <xmrscott[m]> Ooo, published this month. Surprised I haven't seen any major commentary on it on Twitter or r/monero or r/cc
17:28:12 <sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: I think that's a reasonable step to reduce liability, given the CCS is used for legit use
17:28:28 <ErCiccione[m]> luigi1111: i'm talking about the person opening the proposal
17:28:44 <sgp_> there's no reason to expect the CCS has been used to launder money before
17:28:44 <luigi1111w> that wasn't directed at you
17:29:00 <ErCiccione[m]> sgp_: just put that sentence in the template and make people thick it. Problem solved
17:29:16 <ErCiccione[m]> oh ok sorry
17:30:14 <sgp_> I want to clearly state something like this doesn't remove all liability, but it may be appropriate given the risk levels we see
17:30:33 <midipoet> xmrscott[m]: it is fresh off the press alright. the NIST one published recently was very good, to be fair.
17:31:23 <midipoet> i do think that it would be possible to create a CryptoNote/Monero based identity protocol.
17:31:41 <midipoet> it's actually something i have been thinking about for a while.
17:31:44 <ErCiccione[m]> sgp_: what can yo do more? ask people if they lied about it? Don't think many will answer yes
17:31:53 <LZA_Menace> who would be at risk if some legal entity were to pursue some legal action because the CCS sent funds to someone in a sanctioned country?
17:32:07 <sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: theoretically one could ask for proof of address, ID, etc. Again not ideal
17:32:38 <xmrscott[m]> Yes, I think some concern around CCS is warranted. Like, the gov does some sort of sting operation and takes out CCS, tries to go after at least known core members
17:32:50 <ErCiccione[m]> sgp_: the day that happens is the day i disappear from here :P
17:33:06 <ErCiccione[m]> i think all this concern is super exaggerated btw
17:33:08 <sgp_> I'm only advising here, not telling
17:33:25 <ErCiccione[m]> i know :)
17:33:39 <sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: why would you leave, do YOU live in North Korea????? /s
17:34:47 <ErCiccione[m]> yes, i've been reciclying all my CCS income to kim himself. Built some new education camps. Terrific stuff
17:35:09 <midipoet> ErCiccione[m]: i agree, i think its over exaggerated as well. however, i do see the attack vector/vulnerability. it would be a clever one
17:35:19 <sgp_> I do recommend having the proposer attest that they are not in a sanctioned country though, seems reasonable without being intrusive
17:36:27 <luigi1111w> seems like a fine step until we get some counsel or more clarity on things
17:51:49 <midipoet> maybe we should add a data_field for monero transactions as well.
17:51:59 <midipoet> ;-)
17:54:11 <sgp_> tx_extra_kyc
17:55:10 <hyc> sanctioned country? sanxtioned by whom?
17:55:49 <hyc> AFAIK this project and community are not US orgs
18:04:40 <xmrscott[m]> True, but it would suck to see something  like Virgil Griffith happen in the Monero community, regardless of the exact cicumstances around Virgil
18:09:48 <hyc> you don't think if govt's were going to harass Monero devs, they wouldn't have already started by now?
18:11:54 <gingeropolous> just because your paranoid / don't mean they're not after you.
18:12:37 <gingeropolous> gotta find a way / a better way / to get away.
18:55:10 <nioc> I'll ask a stupid question, my specialty...
18:55:15 <nioc> is the US sanctioned by any other country?
19:03:16 <sgp_> capital restrictions may have a similar impact if I'm reading into your question correctly
19:09:29 <nioc> we are only talking about US "laws"
19:09:31 <nioc> are we following laws or avoiding action/enforcement
19:11:43 <asymptotically> can we form a micronation and sanction the US?
19:13:49 <xmrmatterbridge> <midipoet> Lol
19:18:07 <nioc> sgp_: never assume that my input comes with a depth of knowledge :)
19:18:43 <sgp_> lol
19:25:09 <sgp_> monero talk episode with block pierce is now out lol. clicking play, wish me luck
19:35:46 <xmrmatterbridge> <midipoet> I don't think Brock Pierce is that bad to be honest.. off in his own world, admittedly, but sometimes that's a good thing.
19:36:18 <xmrmatterbridge> <midipoet> Then again, maybe I am a bad judge of character.
20:06:26 <sgp_> Remember that there's a community meeting tomorrow
20:41:34 <xmrscott[m]> For the fellow Matrix users on Linux, there's a new Matrix client called Mirage that may be worth checking out, especially if you like to have consistent programmable theming on your system: https://matrix.org/blog/category/this-week-in-matrix#dept-of-clients-
22:37:22 <kinghat[m]> xmrscott: im using the riot flatpak. its nice. ty for the link