<xmrhaelan> dEBRUYNE if it’s a bad idea, social media will tell you with downvotes, negative or no comments, minimal retweets/shares etc.. I know because I have had bad ideas before :)

social media plebs shouldn't be driving Monero though

a decentralized project works based off of built reputation.

There are several, unofficial tiers of trust. There are those who are very trusted and known in most circles, moneromooo, fluffypony, most core team, needmoney90, sgp, etc.

<xmrhaelan> The comments on Reddit for the initial proposal were mostly positive and had a good amount of upvotes. Twitter shared quite a bit too.

There are "IRC regulars" who are, I think trusted by most of Tier 1.

There are "Reddit regulars" who are trusted somewhat.

And there are random plebs who are unvocal parts of community. May mean well, but we don't know that, and so are treated as untrusted.

Comments on Reddit is composed of mostly the lowest tier, with some of the second lowest, and suspicion or outright resistance from the higher tiers.

Twitter shares are probably similar.

I should probably actually formalize this into a little paper. Trust and reputation in FOSS communities using Monero as an example.

<xmrhaelan> I am just answering dEBRUYNE question. I agree there are certain levels of trust. In my mind I think exceptions can be made for projects that may align well with Monero, already have a good amount of sweat equity put into said project (even if not directly to benefit Monero), and there’s a desire to work more closely with Monero

While it won't be a go-to template for how to do things, it might provide a framework so we can all speak the same language when deciding community consensus.

My two big misgivings are/were 1. Resource exhaustion, 2. I'd like to see some volunteer work for Monero rather than just promises that they'll work closely with Monero.

If volunteer work is too costly for them, then sharing our resources is too costly for us. Bottom line.

How would that volunteer work look? Something independent to their project? Or does past work count

<xmrhaelan> In such a scenario, it makes sense to give said project a short trial period to allow their respective communities to feel each other out.

as well, I echo what was said above xmrhaelan, I hope you use the time of the Monero Outreach group wisely in this regard.

xmrhaelan, no it makes sense for them to do some work up front, and then a trial period.

They aren't just raising money in Monero, which I have no problem with since Monero is just money.. They are raising money from the Monero community.

<xmrhaelan> Sure, but they’ve already been doing a ton of work up front on their own, so I think this is a unique circumstance

dude

are you serious? They've done up front work on THEIR project.

yes, that's admirable and awesome. I commend them.

<xmrhaelan> Are we that selfish?

In some circumstances, we might have to be, yes.

We're not exactly flooded with donations.

<xmrhaelan> The technology they are working on could be a huge safeguard for Monero transactions in the future.

And that you turn this into a moral dilemma, when I spend many hours of the day trying to find new ways to make sure our Noether boys get funded and not just barely scrape by is not something I appreciate.

<xmrhaelan> I understand the struggle to get regular work funded. I believe projects like this can bring more people and donors into our ecosystem. To me this is a small step for the big picture

xmrhaelan, I recall once when I asked the Monero Outreach workgroup for help in that regard actually. Getting CCS things funded.

<xmrhaelan> You’ll have to remind me. Perhaps we should talk offline.

Regardless, the test period is here. We're going to see how this plays out.

and I once again want to reiterate to rdymac to not take any of this personally. There's just limited resources to go around, and some of us are protective of them. It doesn't mean your project isn't good, and that you guys aren't hard workers and deserving of resources (in general).

Not taking anything personally. Don’t hesitate to speak your mind about everything or even specifically about Locha Mesh

this is kinda related to a comment from sgp_ when I had that wacky idea to really expand the Monero CCS..... the whole concept of our Monero Community Brand is already out of the bag. Listen to the opening of Monero Talk's new podcast format "something something cake wallet and xmr.to, services trusted by the Monero Community something something"

stamps are being given whether we like it or not

to some extent we should acknowledge that without devoiding it of meaning or going to extremes

resource exhaustion is important, but I think we need to be really careful about how we approach that, especially if we don't know who these donors are, what they want, etc

otherwise we're all making unbacked arguments on behalf of people we can't actually speak for

but don;t take that as a reason to not be sensible

for example, I'm handling the Konferenco finances this year, and I sure am trying my hardest to keep costs low. I'm being considerate to the extent possible without taking the support for granted

The Konferenco is more clearly related to Monero, but why isn't is a purely corporate initiative? Why does it need community support at all?

And I think we all know the answer to that. By going full corporate, it's worse

Not stepping back a bit

*now

I was neither really for against the proposal. I suggested that it be moved with caveats during the last meeting, since I interpreted support for on one side as people who felt the initiative was valuable, and support against being mostly 1) donations are a limited resource, and 2) they didn't feel it was that useful

those two points 1 and 2 are REALLY hard to weigh appropriately!

if anything, what we need at the top of CCS proposals are banners saying that adoption of a proposal does not imply support from any particular group or should be seen as an endorsement from the decentralized Monero ecosystem, but that it needs to pass a discussion process

luckily we have you all here to help advise during these conversations

at the same time however, I don't think most people think availability of a proposal means it must be supported

everyone knows of GoFundMe. Everyone knows those aren't vetted to any measurable extent

" adoption of a proposal does not imply support from any particular group or should be seen as an endorsement from the decentralized Monero ecosystem" i think the first part makes sense. The second part implies that a decentralized Monero ecosystem CAN endorse things.

i mean, the only way a decentralized anything can do anything is via pragmatism

i.e., it is because it is

I'm trying to say there is a vetting process without saying it's official

It's hard to word admittedly

help me plz :)

:)

"These proposals are discussed in the community before being moved, but being moved does not imply the endorsement by any particular group."

yeah. i mean, at the end of the day its individuals making donations after making a decision about the information presented.

gingeropolous: would you merge every CCS request and let the community decide?

nope

but i feel the vetting done is structural which makes sense

its triage really

regarding your Reddit question, IMO the CCS is not the right place for a non Monero project.

Now we are back again at selfishness and resource exhaustion.

I just think it sets a bad precedent. Why would they use the Monero CCS if the project is not Monero related?

If by “they” you mean me, I used the FFS because it was suggested to me by Spagni and other Monero users at Bitcoin2020 after I showed them the first prototype demo and explained to them how it could enable a private censorship-resistant way of sending transactions

Bitcoin2019*

I don't think the precedent will be terribly harmful. If it goes swimmingly, we'll admittedly be more apt to consider "alternative" proposals, which could be considered a downside depending on perspective. If we get our fingers burned, we may explicitly disallow such things in the future.

I would always expect similar proposals to be subject to much higher scrutiny than the norm though

<xmrhaelan> I also encouraged rdymac to submit a proposal on the CCS after he answered some questions I had about their approach to software and hardware development. I’ll own some of the “blame” for it going on the CCS, but I don’t regret it. After talking with him it became apparent their ethos and vision are very aligned with the Monero community. They are also going to do some research and try to implement RPC-Pay for t

There is no “blaming” here.

Nothing wrong with proposing something.

<xmrhaelan> I agree rdymac could have done a better job articulating the direct relation and usefulness to Monero- and we have exchanged words about that already ;)

to be honest, i like that the Locha Mesh CCS got moved to 'funding required'. cryptocurrency networks are just grand experiments at the end of the day, and as such there should always be incentive mechanisms provided for 'experimenters' to do just that. if networks can provide support for continual improvement and evolution through novel development efforts, then all the better this 'movement' will be.

however, that may just be the hopeless romantic in me.

re: the reddit thread on 'reasonably private', I don't really agree with the change either

The optics of it are quite detrimental, imo

What about simply linking to a disclaimer page and removing the word reasonably?

I don't see anything wrong with simply saying private, without any adjective

As I said, we can link to a disclaimer page to educate the user

mrl meeting in 25 mins. konferenco meeting after

Did the promised report about Globee repaying the general donation fund ever appear? This was supposed to come out over a year ago from what I can tell

What are you referring to?

lana del rey's store doesn't accept monero anymore. i don't know about you guys but i'm heartbroken

UkoeHB_: there was only 1 I knew about, no more

repaying the general fund is here forum.getmonero.org/9/work-in-progr…/globee-s-secret-project-fundraiser and fluffypony at one point said he'd ask for a report about Globee (cant find it right this moment)

sgp_: where might I find it?

it was on some mailchimp mailing list. I need to do some digging

Hey, I've opened my third CCS request for Monero integrations. Would you mind if I ask you a feedback about it? repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/125

I also don't like "reasonably"

"A currency with at least three privacies"

not one privacy

not two privacies

but at least three of them

it's a solid 10/10 on the international privacy scale

i was thinking about the "reasonably" today. You could arguably have a tag line that says "Monero: reasonably private, reasonably secure, and reasonably decentralised". not sure it achieves anything meaningful though by saying that.

We could just go full-shitcoin

Say its private

monero: complete privacy or your money back

and then have other people prove it isnt

9 out of 10 dentists approve of Monero's privacy

^ the best way to phrase

!tip rehrar 500 dentacoins

"private until proven otherwise"

"Currently unbroken privacy!"

we are private yes its true, we are private how bout you

let's not make any privacy claims about Monero at all actually. Let's just say "Monero: One Love"

and leave people to figure it out for themselves.

"Monero: at least it's not verge"

"Monero: yet another cryptocurrency"

lol.

Peer reviewed privacy?

We could go with the research angle

Needs rephrasing ofc

But the peer review/audits set us apart

We shouldn't even have a tag line tbh

just "Monero"

monono.

the tag line is private

you misspelled anonymous.

Monero: because privacy matters

Gosh I feel like a corporate commercial now

Monero: why doesn't my wife love me anymore? jesus christ she even took the kids. maria please just come back i

asymptotically: go home you drunk.

you misspelled confidential

I need to CCS to keep that site up. It's cost me too much money for a bad joke.

if it takes over a minute to load is it really classed as up?

Lol! I probnably got hacked with monero miner on the server

wasn't me :x

Fix it

Also I'm down to pay for half of your bad money on the joke

We gotta market it somehow tho

we need to make social media for it

i'll host it if you want, but there's a 50/50 chance that i backdoor the wallet download to steal all of the fungusable mononos

oh, the reason it didn't load was because of https

if you just http:// it then it loads because I never bothered to put letsencrypt

letsnotencrypt

2lazy2encrypt

Now people will know I'm a haxxor and visit haxxor sites.

eh?

<midipoet> i was thinking about the "reasonably" today. You could arguably have a tag line that says "Monero: reasonably private, reasonably secure, and reasonably decentralised". not sure it achieves anything meaningful though by saying that.

OK replace reasonably with meaningfully

and it still doesn't sound meaningful

do adjectives even work?

adjectives are overrated in this field

rehrar: Monero: No Woman, no cry!

lol.

<Inge- "rehrar: Monero: No Woman, no cry"> You spittin straight facts!

Getmonero is now translatable on Weblate. Announcement on reddit: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/f2yfjt…oorg_is_now_translatable_on_weblate

Locha Mesh looking for an extra developer with experience in C/C++ and wireless networks. If also has some electronics & IoT experience, it would be great. You can contact us at: randy⊙li