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xmrscott[m]
I think hyc is pretty spot on the money, especially given the flack between Zuckerburg and Trump as of late
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xmrscott[m]
IMO Mastodon is pretty awesome, and has roughly doubled in the last year from 1 million users to 2 million
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xmrscott[m]
But that's still nowhere near the ~330 million monthly active users of Twitter
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sgp_
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monerobux
[REDDIT] Cool sexy name for the new pay rpc thing. (self.Monero) | 45 points (94.0%) | 24 comments | Posted by gingeropolous | Created at 2019-12-12 - 04:49:21
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asymptotically
didn't somebody create a browser extension and apache2 module for paying for website access?
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sgp_
asymptotically: are you referring to something new or old?
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sgp_
someone made something for CryptoNight
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sgp_
not sure about RandomX
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asymptotically
i think it was quite a few months ago
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asymptotically
selene's project
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asymptotically
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sgp_
oh, cool
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sgp_
I like "HyperHash Payment Protocol", or H2P2 for short so far
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asymptotically
why not go full circle with hashcash? :P
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sgp_
it needs to be a super easy and recognizable name
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sgp_
since this might be a an extension used by a user, or related to one
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asymptotically
well hashcash was the same thing but paying for emails (except the recipient didn't get rewarded by the chance of a block) and it was inspiration for bitcoin
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asymptotically
.w hashcash
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monerobux
[WIKIPEDIA] Hashcash | "Hashcash is a proof-of-work system used to limit email spam and denial-of-service attacks, and more recently has become known for its use in bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) as part of the mining algorithm. Hashcash was proposed in 1997 by Adam Back and described more formally in Back's paper "Hashcash..." |
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash
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sgp_
Technically the name can be used for anything but it's probably not a good idea :p
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needmonero90
It's like ghost payments that don't settle
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needmonero90
Kinda wraith-like
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needmonero90
Why not call it wraith protocol
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xmrscott[m]
Indeed it isn't taken, only vvraith protocol is
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xmrscott[m]
Make it happen, captain
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hyc
call it X-cash
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hyc
or Cash-X
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nioc
RandomCash
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sgp_
lol
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sgp_
fwiw the rewards when solo mining are quite random
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kinghat
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Guest78835
kinghat: Incubators should be something similar to a testnet where big features are tested before going live on the main bisq. But nobody beside the maintainers actually test the features. So now they are being reconsidered. Right after being implemented.
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Guest78835
The better monero integration is in one of these incubators, but i don't think it will move from there
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kinghat
i mean is there a place to publically follow the incubator project? so it doesnt just get put in a holding pattern.
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kinghat
thats what im saying.
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Guest78835
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» Guest78835 afk
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midipoet
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kinghat
foot feetishes*
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gingeropolous
sgp_, re solo mining, it *can* exist in pooled form.
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gingeropolous
i.e., the server just routes the hashes to a pool for PPS or PPPS or whatever
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sgp_
gingeropolous: is it like setting a config in the daemon to send the hashes to a pool? Is that possible/planned?
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gingeropolous
it doesn't exist yet
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gingeropolous
and probably won't be in the core software due to its antithetical nature
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sgp_
would it create dependencies or something?
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gingeropolous
no, its just more pool centralization
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Snipa
^ Would be my default assupmption.
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Snipa
Because you're no longer using your daemon as the source for the BT, so now your BT is controlled by the upstream.
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Snipa
IE: The exact current concerns over MXMR/SXMR running as large as we are.
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gingeropolous
u just gotta do jtgrassie 's thing and then provide a massive fee difference between the pool types
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gingeropolous
for the case of supportxmr
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Snipa
What? PPLNS vs PPLNS vs PPLNS? :P
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gingeropolous
naw, if you use standard stratum, fee of 5%. If you use jtgrassie 's thing, fee of 0.5%
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gingeropolous
or something
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gingeropolous
would have to get xnbya on board as well, otherwise people just centralize to his pool
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gingeropolous
migrate
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sgp_
I honestly think it's worth seeing how to make this happen, since without using pools, hardly anyone will use it
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Snipa
Haven't looked at that poposal yet.
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sgp_
the variability is just too large
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gingeropolous
sgp_, for rpc service, yeah. Its a tough sell.
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gingeropolous
but for where I see it going, it will do well. Imagine you have to submit 500 hashes to read an article from some news website
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gingeropolous
i friggin hate hitting paywalls
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gingeropolous
this would eliminate paywalls
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sgp_
only if the site is huge
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Snipa
Oh are we looking at the absurd mining as proof of reading thing again?
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sgp_
if it's small, they'll get nothing
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gingeropolous
well, nytimes is pretty huge
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Snipa
Also, 500 hashes is several hours of work.
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sgp_
well unless they have agreed to adopt it....
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gingeropolous
depends on difficulty
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gingeropolous
well right
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Snipa
Even if you assumed 1 hash/second (2k-ish diff), you're looking at 10 minutes.
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hyc
500 hashes at pool difficulty instead of network difficulty is quite feasible
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Snipa
Pool diffs are spiking to 50-60k base diff.
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gingeropolous
well the number of hashes is tbd
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Snipa
Pretty much everyone's dropped anything lower to maintain an approximate 30 second STT.
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gingeropolous
the point is, you have 100 million readers submitting 20 hashes, thats 100e6*20
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Snipa
2 billion hashes, which is less than 2% of a block?
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Snipa
So less than 2$
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gingeropolous
or you get hash credits as your phone charges. details, details
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gingeropolous
or we just wait until monero is 900 billion dollars / xmr
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Snipa
Assuming a 20 second delay is fine, and diff is 2k, you're looking at Maaaaaybe 200$.
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gingeropolous
at current prices sure
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tevador
are you talking about web mining RandomX?
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Snipa
Mind you, a site with a fraction of that traffic can make 200-300$ a day on google ads alone (Been there, done that.)
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gingeropolous
not web mining, more like... just mining as instigated by an app to pay for content
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Snipa
Also, prospective income doesn't pay server bills.
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hyc
^
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sgp_
let's not kid ourselves, it will be ads + mining
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hyc
yeah I've had that question for a while now, hashes themselves have no monetary value
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gingeropolous
unless they find a block
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gingeropolous
solve
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hyc
hash-for-service essentially turns hashes into currency. micro-currency, but still.
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sgp_
it's like offering someone payment for lunch with a lottery ticket
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gingeropolous
if its not pooled, yeah
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sgp_
so I think it pretty much has to be pooled
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hyc
"would you like $20 in Amazon gift card, or $20 in lottery tickets?"
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tevador
unless miners become integrated into web browsers, it's not viable
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gingeropolous
selenas primo thing is effective integrated. its a plugin
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sgp_
tevador: really niche applications where people with a browser extension that allows mining get a special flair or something?
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asymptotically
we could give some kind of coin to people for doing these hashes, and then perhaps they could send the coin to the website :O
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gingeropolous
lol
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gingeropolous
i agree the economics of it aren't there yet with current monero valuation
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tevador
but stratum self-select integrated into monerod doesn't sound like a terrible idea
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sgp_
and since Monero is CPU mined, its profitability will more closely follow equilibrium imo
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asymptotically
sgp_: a site called pr0gramm did that to test coinhive before it launched. a leaderboard to show how many hashes people have donated, and i think they got quite a bit from it
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sgp_
asymptotically: I think a form-based site with special rankings, flairs, rewards, etc *could* work out
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sgp_
but it's not an easy sell for most
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hyc
so XMR is ~$50 today. It's ATH was just under $500. Do we need to reach ATH before this is viable?
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gingeropolous
imagine you could download an app, that gave you access to everything paywalled on the internet.
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gingeropolous
would you use it?
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sgp_
hyc: presumably difficulty would be nearly 10x
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hyc
true
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sgp_
these are CPUs, easy to turn on and off :)
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tevador
yeah, the mining rewards are simply not there
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tevador
to support this
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hyc
so basically the profitability per hash is a constant
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gingeropolous
i hate paywalls, but i like content, but i also think that content should be rewarded. I just don't want to make a subscription to every goddamned content creator
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Snipa
The functional output of such a tool to a site op is not high enough for the effort required by a user base.
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gingeropolous
it wouldn't be a single site op.
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Snipa
Speaking as someone who would have supported such a tool when I was running a site that could have used a tool like that. :P
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gingeropolous
if you want my whole business plan idea, here it is. You create an app. You make agreements with content creators. You buy some kind of access to their content, and the app manages that access based on the users mining.
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gingeropolous
so, at this stage, you act as a middleman
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hyc
yes, the concept is clear enough
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gingeropolous
you buy access to the content, then syndicate it using the hash for service thing.
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Snipa
Buying access to content like that is extraordinarily expensive.
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hyc
the magnitude of reward isn't
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Snipa
We were quoted something like 10-15k/month for a single corporate level RSS feed to syndicate content onto a social media platform.
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gingeropolous
well, at some point it will be
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gingeropolous
so its just a matter of capital and runway, like it always is
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Snipa
And inflated expectations that Monero continues to get more valuable over time.
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Snipa
Which, mind you, I'd love to see, but is not something you base a business on.
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gingeropolous
well for that we just arrange with the whales to pump the price
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gingeropolous
ez pz
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hyc
hm, no, it will never reach that point
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hyc
since difficulty rises with price
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Snipa
Nothing quite like effective self-regulating systems.
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hyc
If it doesn't make economic sense to do it today, it basically never will
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gingeropolous
though theoretically difficulty reaches a maximum based on available silicon
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Snipa
Don't forget about GaN and other semiconductor solutions.
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gingeropolous
and i'd hazard that phone mining will probably remain untapped for a while
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Snipa
Silicon is just the most common, but it's not the only answer.
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Snipa
Oh, and don't forget that all the phone stores have banned miners.
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gingeropolous
well thats just handshakes
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Snipa
It's a neat idea, just not a practical one.
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hyc
the other possibility is to make it ... permissioned. Any individual miner is only allowed to mine for X seconds, or hashes, or watts
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gingeropolous
we'll see i guess
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gingeropolous
i just hate paywalls
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hyc
then the payoff can increase in value
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Snipa
Tbh, if you're serious about it, go talk with Brave
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Snipa
They've got the active user base that would be interested in a solution like that.
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hyc
true, they've got their BAT already
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Snipa
We implmented BAT acceptance into the day job.
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hyc
tho I use brave and have never looked into using BAT at all
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gingeropolous
no need to clog a chain though
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Snipa
No, but they've got a userbase already interested in crypto, that could leverage XMR mining to do a microtxn in BAT on ETH to earn BAT.
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gingeropolous
wat
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Snipa
What?
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Snipa
It's perfectly sensible.
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gingeropolous
leverage XMR mining to do a microtxn in BAT on ETH to earn BAT < i just got lost in that :)
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Snipa
BAT is a microtransaction currency. So you'd have Brave browsers opt in to mine, then they get rewarded in BAT.
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Snipa
Which is a txn on ETH.
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gingeropolous
gotcha
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Snipa
Plz. Must keep up with the insanity that is ERC-20 tokens. :P
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hyc
sounds like too many steps, TBH
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gingeropolous
^^ that was my point with 'wat'
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Snipa
Nah, it's pretty normal. :P
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hyc
and anyway, you can't create something from nothing. if the opt-in-mining isn't worth much in XMR, it won't be worth much in BAT or ETH either
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gingeropolous
all being managed by infua
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gingeropolous
infura
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Snipa
BAT has a much lower value/coin, and is designed to be used in comically small amounts.
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Snipa
So your reward with XMR might not be valuable, but the reward in BAT is possible to use more useful. But really, it's more 'Go find out how successful they are'
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Snipa
As a content publishing platform, the answer is terrible, but maybe they've got more successful sites.
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hyc
in that case, if web sites have signed up to accept BAT, why wouldn't they accept an equal value of XMR hashrate?
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Snipa
Because running hashes to a pool is complex.
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hyc
seems like a simple HTTP relay to me
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Snipa
BAT requires 0 work on the site's side, other than embedding a meta tag that deals with all the magic, then they can use a centralized gateway to get money out.
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Snipa
Man, if we used HTTP for stratum, my life would be so much easier.
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Snipa
The current hacky JSON over TCP stratum drives me nuts. :P
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hyc
heh. well, we're talking about a new web+mining ecosystem here. we can afford to revamp the mining protocol while we're at it
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Snipa
That being said, not impossible to do, XNP had a HTTP version for supporting web miners for awhile.
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Snipa
Tbh, as a site op, I wouldn't run the infrastructure behind it, and I've got experience running pools/etc.
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Snipa
BAT literally is "Setup wallet, add meta, get money."
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gingeropolous
yeah, i imagine this would eventually exist like that as well
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gingeropolous
selenas primo is very intensive on the infrastructure
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hyc
do web sites get paid in advance? if a user wants to read a page, is the payment before or after?
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Snipa
Neither with BAT.
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Snipa
Users can give money if they want, but it's not required.
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hyc
so the site doesn't need to do any per-user accounting
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Snipa
Nope.
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hyc
then this isn't much more than setting up an equivalent of xmrig-proxy
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hyc
the site doesn't care what happens on that traffic
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Snipa
Except that I don't have to stand up a C application to accept BAT.
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monerobby
There are already browser extensions to mitigate paywalls - without any hashes - since most paywalls are client-side anyways.
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gingeropolous
do tell :)
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sgp_
I agree with Snipa that UX is possibly the biggest part of this
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sgp_
Brave takes essentially no work (except some KYC) to set up
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sgp_
no mining pool or daemon config
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asymptotically
gingeropolous: disabling javascript in your browser usually gets rid of most paywalls on news sites
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monerobby
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hyc
sgp_: all of this can be streamlined. Add a meta tag to a web site to tell the browser which address to mine to. run pool proxy on web site.
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hyc
browser extension grabs address, talks to proxy to get a job, starts running hashes
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hyc
no explicit user intervention required
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sgp_
the web admin would need to still run the proxy, which would need to be dead simple (right?)
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Snipa
I will propose a question about if people really want to go down the coinhive route again. :P
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hyc
Snipa: this can't be done surreptitiously
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hyc
without the browser extension, you can't mine
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Snipa
Uhuh, and browser extenstions can't be silently loaded with exploits.
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sgp_
yeah but they already are and are removed
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Snipa
And as it'd probally be a centralized extension, no store would accept it.
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Snipa
Which would mean it's going to be a developer-mode only extension.
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sgp_
mining is the least malicious thing right? compared to stealing full web history, clipboard, etc?
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sgp_
agree on the store acceptance being a hard sell
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hyc
what do you mean centralized extension?
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Snipa
Well, does each site run their own extension, or does it come from a centralized repository?
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Snipa
Because if you legitimately think that a site admin is going to write, publish, run, and update their own extension, you're nuts.
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hyc
there only needs to be one extension. there only needs to be one AdBlocker extension
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Snipa
Adblocker has been removed from google's store 3 times in the last 6 months.
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Snipa
Mining extenions got purged all over the place.
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sgp_
user would say yes/no to all mining requests right? just one extension. sorta like metamask
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hyc
the site admin has to install the pool proxy, not the browser extension
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Snipa
Which means you'd have to offer the extension as a sideload, increasing UX friction.
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sgp_
as I said the risk of store removal is true
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Snipa
s/risk/ensured happening/
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sgp_
best chance is to make it super user-protection focused but still could be removed
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hyc
You have to examine the reasons for removal in each case
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hyc
and how those extensions were advertised and actually behaved.
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Snipa
When the large store distributors have pretty much banned mining at this point, you're going to deal with it one way or another.
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sgp_
yeah probably
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Snipa
Google will never allow it, as it interferes directly with their primary profit line.
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hyc
good point
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sgp_
Snipa: I downloaded Ublock origin yesterday from their store
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Snipa
Go take a look through their git complaints about google dropping them randomly from the store. :P
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hyc
heh. how do they keep getting re-accepted?
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Snipa
They've had 3 seperate incidents where only public outrage has gotten them reinstated.
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hyc
too bad google has a clear conflict of interest here, oh well
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sgp_
I just think it's a little more nuanced than "google thinks it's bad"
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Snipa
You give Google way too much credit.
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sgp_
google is a huge company with many moving parts. they can't get messaging right lol
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Snipa
Messaging was fine, when it was XMPP based.
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hyc
harhar
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Snipa
Hey, I connected fine with an XMPP client, and didn't have to deal with their terrible UI's.
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Snipa
It wasn't IRC levels of smooth, but XMPP != IRC.
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sgp_
all I'm trying to say is that the risks you bring up are totally legit, but I don't think it's 100% certain failure. More like 70% failure :p
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Snipa
As someone who got screwed by google to the tune of 30-40k. :P
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sgp_
yeah well luckily we're not really invested here :)
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sgp_
google removes it? oh well we tried
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sgp_
I'm more concerned with admins having to install the proxy tbh
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Snipa
Meh, if I ever get inspired enough to finish XNP's new update, it'll be trivial for anyone running on a decently sized (Non-cPanel) server they have sufficient access to.
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Snipa
Single point daemon, statically compiled, no external dependancies.
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Snipa
I've just not wanted to figure out how to get RX into my codebase yet.
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sgp_
yeah but the only people who will use it are using cpanel :p
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sgp_
in any case, I think being able to point the daemon to a pool would be extremely useful for every use-case that comes out of this
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sgp_
including the most obvious of someone running an open node and asking for hashes to provide blocks
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kinghat
coil.com i think they are working to get a web payment standard setup. so any service you would just hook into it.
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Snipa
So is Steem, PayPal, etc. Lots of web payment "standards"
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sgp_
coil looks like more of a subscription service
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sgp_
kinda like medium
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kinghat
no i mean a web standard metatag
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Snipa
Meta tags are inherently non-standardized. OpenGraph is the closest we've got to a standard so far.
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Snipa
I just got done with a 2 week project dealing with meta scraping. :P
