10:06:59 <xmrscott[m]> I think hyc is pretty spot on the money, especially given the flack between Zuckerburg and Trump as of late
10:08:06 <xmrscott[m]> IMO Mastodon is pretty awesome, and has roughly doubled in the last year from 1 million users to 2 million
10:09:03 <xmrscott[m]> But that's still nowhere near the ~330 million monthly active users of Twitter
14:17:10 <sgp_> "Cool sexy name for the new pay rpc thing." https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/e9ix5r/cool_sexy_name_for_the_new_pay_rpc_thing/
14:17:11 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Cool sexy name for the new pay rpc thing. (self.Monero) | 45 points (94.0%) | 24 comments | Posted by gingeropolous | Created at 2019-12-12 - 04:49:21
14:37:27 <asymptotically> didn't somebody create a browser extension and apache2 module for paying for website access?
14:52:16 <sgp_> asymptotically: are you referring to something new or old?
14:52:29 <sgp_> someone made something for CryptoNight
14:52:34 <sgp_> not sure about RandomX
14:53:03 <asymptotically> i think it was quite a few months ago
14:53:07 <asymptotically> selene's project
14:53:14 <asymptotically> https://repo.getmonero.org/selene/primo
14:53:41 <sgp_> oh, cool
14:54:31 <sgp_> I like "HyperHash Payment Protocol", or H2P2 for short so far
14:56:10 <asymptotically> why not go full circle with hashcash? :P
14:57:02 <sgp_> it needs to be a super easy and recognizable name
14:57:28 <sgp_> since this might be a an extension used by a user, or related to one
14:58:49 <asymptotically> well hashcash was the same thing but paying for emails (except the recipient didn't get rewarded by the chance of a block) and it was inspiration for bitcoin
14:58:52 <asymptotically> .w hashcash
14:58:53 <monerobux> [WIKIPEDIA] Hashcash | "Hashcash is a proof-of-work system used to limit email spam and denial-of-service attacks, and more recently has become known for its use in bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) as part of the mining algorithm.  Hashcash was proposed in 1997 by Adam Back and described more formally in Back's paper "Hashcash..." | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash
15:01:48 <sgp_> Technically the name can be used for anything but it's probably not a good idea :p
15:28:56 <needmonero90> It's like ghost payments that don't settle
15:29:06 <needmonero90> Kinda wraith-like
15:29:12 <needmonero90> Why not call it wraith protocol
15:51:54 <xmrscott[m]> Indeed it isn't taken, only vvraith protocol is
15:52:04 <xmrscott[m]> Make it happen, captain
16:44:53 <hyc> call it X-cash
16:44:56 <hyc> or Cash-X
16:46:49 <nioc> RandomCash
17:10:56 <sgp_> lol
17:11:19 <sgp_> fwiw the rewards when solo mining are quite random
18:10:41 <kinghat> what is the incubator project? https://github.com/bisq-network/proposals/issues/110#event-2878841054
18:23:41 <Guest78835> kinghat: Incubators should be something similar to a testnet where big features are tested before going live on the main bisq. But nobody beside the maintainers actually test the features. So now they are being reconsidered. Right after being implemented.
18:24:18 <Guest78835> The better monero integration is in one of these incubators, but i don't think it will move from there
18:24:43 <kinghat> i mean is there a place to publically follow the incubator project? so it doesnt just get put in a holding pattern.
18:24:56 <kinghat> thats what im saying.
18:25:55 <Guest78835> yes, Monero is here: https://github.com/bisq-network/incubator-bisq-xmr-integration
18:26:11 * Guest78835 afk
18:35:56 <midipoet> for those with foot fetishes.... https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/oyY3hg5m/irccloudcapture227070359631011658.jpg
18:38:48 <kinghat> foot feetishes*
18:51:17 <gingeropolous> sgp_, re solo mining, it *can* exist in pooled form.
18:51:58 <gingeropolous> i.e., the server just routes the hashes to a pool for PPS or PPPS or whatever
19:11:14 <sgp_> gingeropolous: is it like setting a config in the daemon to send the hashes to a pool? Is that possible/planned?
19:11:37 <gingeropolous> it doesn't exist yet
19:11:54 <gingeropolous> and probably won't be in the core software due to its antithetical nature
19:12:14 <sgp_> would it create dependencies or something?
19:12:43 <gingeropolous> no, its just more pool centralization
19:12:50 <Snipa> ^  Would be my default assupmption.
19:13:04 <Snipa> Because you're no longer using your daemon as the source for the BT, so now your BT is controlled by the upstream.
19:13:30 <Snipa> IE: The exact current concerns over MXMR/SXMR running as large as we are.
19:14:10 <gingeropolous> u just gotta do jtgrassie 's thing and then provide a massive fee difference between the pool types
19:14:21 <gingeropolous> for the case of supportxmr
19:14:32 <Snipa> What?  PPLNS vs PPLNS vs PPLNS? :P
19:15:02 <gingeropolous> naw, if you use standard stratum, fee of 5%. If you use jtgrassie 's thing, fee of 0.5%
19:15:04 <gingeropolous> or something
19:15:25 <gingeropolous> would have to get xnbya on board as well, otherwise people just centralize to his pool
19:15:29 <gingeropolous> migrate
19:15:43 <sgp_> I honestly think it's worth seeing how to make this happen, since without using pools, hardly anyone will use it
19:15:48 <Snipa> Haven't looked at that poposal yet.
19:15:49 <sgp_> the variability is just too large
19:16:15 <gingeropolous> sgp_, for rpc service, yeah. Its a tough sell.
19:16:38 <gingeropolous> but for where I see it going, it will do well. Imagine you have to submit 500 hashes to read an article from some news website
19:16:42 <gingeropolous> i friggin hate hitting paywalls
19:16:46 <gingeropolous> this would eliminate paywalls
19:16:53 <sgp_> only if the site is huge
19:17:01 <Snipa> Oh are we looking at the absurd mining as proof of reading thing again?
19:17:02 <sgp_> if it's small, they'll get nothing
19:17:08 <gingeropolous> well, nytimes is pretty huge
19:17:15 <Snipa> Also, 500 hashes is several hours of work.
19:17:25 <sgp_> well unless they have agreed to adopt it....
19:17:26 <gingeropolous> depends on difficulty
19:17:43 <gingeropolous> well right
19:18:09 <Snipa> Even if you assumed 1 hash/second (2k-ish diff), you're looking at 10 minutes.
19:18:10 <hyc> 500 hashes at pool difficulty instead of network difficulty is quite feasible
19:18:24 <Snipa> Pool diffs are spiking to 50-60k base diff.
19:18:38 <gingeropolous> well the number of hashes is tbd
19:18:44 <Snipa> Pretty much everyone's dropped anything lower to maintain an approximate 30 second STT.
19:19:01 <gingeropolous> the point is, you have 100 million readers submitting 20 hashes, thats 100e6*20
19:19:51 <Snipa> 2 billion hashes, which is less than 2% of a block?
19:20:05 <Snipa> So less than 2$
19:20:23 <gingeropolous> or you get hash credits as your phone charges. details, details
19:20:34 <gingeropolous> or we just wait until monero is 900 billion dollars / xmr
19:20:45 <Snipa> Assuming a 20 second delay is fine, and diff is 2k, you're looking at Maaaaaybe 200$.
19:21:08 <gingeropolous> at current prices sure
19:21:10 <tevador> are you talking about web mining RandomX?
19:21:21 <Snipa> Mind you, a site with a fraction of that traffic can make 200-300$ a day on google ads alone (Been there, done that.)
19:21:31 <gingeropolous> not web mining, more like... just mining as instigated by an app to pay for content
19:21:31 <Snipa> Also, prospective income doesn't pay server bills.
19:21:59 <hyc> ^
19:22:10 <sgp_> let's not kid ourselves, it will be ads + mining
19:22:15 <hyc> yeah I've had that question for a while now, hashes themselves have no monetary value
19:22:46 <gingeropolous> unless they find a block
19:22:49 <gingeropolous> solve
19:22:57 <hyc> hash-for-service essentially turns hashes into currency. micro-currency, but still.
19:23:09 <sgp_> it's like offering someone payment for lunch with a lottery ticket
19:23:32 <gingeropolous> if its not pooled, yeah
19:23:43 <sgp_> so I think it pretty much has to be pooled
19:23:54 <hyc> "would you like $20 in Amazon gift card, or $20 in lottery tickets?"
19:24:01 <tevador> unless miners become integrated into web browsers, it's not viable
19:24:24 <gingeropolous> selenas primo thing is effective integrated. its a plugin
19:24:33 <sgp_> tevador: really niche applications where people with a browser extension that allows mining get a special flair or something?
19:24:37 <asymptotically> we could give some kind of coin to people for doing these hashes, and then perhaps they could send the coin to the website :O
19:24:45 <gingeropolous> lol
19:25:33 <gingeropolous> i agree the economics of it aren't there yet with current monero valuation
19:25:59 <tevador> but stratum self-select integrated into monerod doesn't sound like a terrible idea
19:26:03 <sgp_> and since Monero is CPU mined, its profitability will more closely follow equilibrium imo
19:26:23 <asymptotically> sgp_: a site called pr0gramm did that to test coinhive before it launched. a leaderboard to show how many hashes people have donated, and i think they got quite a bit from it
19:26:54 <sgp_> asymptotically: I think a form-based site with special rankings, flairs, rewards, etc *could* work out
19:27:05 <sgp_> but it's not an easy sell for most
19:27:24 <hyc> so XMR is ~$50 today. It's ATH was just under $500. Do we need to reach ATH before this is viable?
19:27:33 <gingeropolous> imagine you could download an app, that gave you access to everything paywalled on the internet.
19:27:41 <gingeropolous> would you use it?
19:27:41 <sgp_> hyc: presumably difficulty would be nearly 10x
19:27:49 <hyc> true
19:28:02 <sgp_> these are CPUs, easy to turn on and off :)
19:28:28 <tevador> yeah, the mining rewards are simply not there
19:28:34 <tevador> to support this
19:28:35 <hyc> so basically the profitability per hash is a constant
19:28:36 <gingeropolous> i hate paywalls, but i like content, but i also think that content should be rewarded. I just don't want to make a subscription to every goddamned content creator
19:28:38 <Snipa> The functional output of such a tool to a site op is not high enough for the effort required by a user base.
19:28:59 <gingeropolous> it wouldn't be a single site op.
19:29:08 <Snipa> Speaking as someone who would have supported such a tool when I was running a site that could have used a tool like that. :P
19:29:43 <gingeropolous> if you want my whole business plan idea, here it is. You create an app. You make agreements with content creators. You buy some kind of access to their content, and the app manages that access based on the users mining.
19:29:49 <gingeropolous> so, at this stage, you act as a middleman
19:30:11 <hyc> yes, the concept is clear enough
19:30:18 <gingeropolous> you buy access to the content, then syndicate it using the hash for service thing.
19:30:21 <Snipa> Buying access to content like that is extraordinarily expensive.
19:30:21 <hyc> the magnitude of reward isn't
19:30:44 <Snipa> We were quoted something like 10-15k/month for a single corporate level RSS feed to syndicate content onto a social media platform.
19:30:45 <gingeropolous> well, at some point it will be
19:31:10 <gingeropolous> so its just a matter of capital and runway, like it always is
19:31:25 <Snipa> And inflated expectations that Monero continues to get more valuable over time.
19:31:37 <Snipa> Which, mind you, I'd love to see, but is not something you base a business on.
19:31:38 <gingeropolous> well for that we just arrange with the whales to pump the price
19:31:40 <gingeropolous> ez pz
19:31:41 <hyc> hm, no, it will never reach that point
19:31:49 <hyc> since difficulty rises with price
19:32:21 <Snipa> Nothing quite like effective self-regulating systems.
19:32:55 <hyc> If it doesn't make economic sense to do it today, it basically never will
19:33:04 <gingeropolous> though theoretically difficulty reaches a maximum based on available silicon
19:33:35 <Snipa> Don't forget about GaN and other semiconductor solutions.
19:33:42 <gingeropolous> and i'd hazard that phone mining will probably remain untapped for a while
19:33:47 <Snipa> Silicon is just the most common, but it's not the only answer.
19:34:12 <Snipa> Oh, and don't forget that all the phone stores have banned miners.
19:34:25 <gingeropolous> well thats just handshakes
19:34:55 <Snipa> It's a neat idea, just not a practical one.
19:35:06 <hyc> the other possibility is to make it ... permissioned. Any individual miner is only allowed to mine for X seconds, or hashes, or watts
19:35:07 <gingeropolous> we'll see i guess
19:35:20 <gingeropolous> i just hate paywalls
19:35:21 <hyc> then the payoff can increase in value
19:35:23 <Snipa> Tbh, if you're serious about it, go talk with Brave
19:35:37 <Snipa> They've got the active user base that would be interested in a solution like that.
19:35:48 <hyc> true, they've got their BAT already
19:36:03 <Snipa> We implmented BAT acceptance into the day job.
19:36:03 <hyc> tho I use brave and have never looked into using BAT at all
19:36:05 <gingeropolous> no need to clog a chain though
19:36:43 <Snipa> No, but they've got a userbase already interested in crypto, that could leverage XMR mining to do a microtxn in BAT on ETH to earn BAT.
19:36:54 <gingeropolous> wat
19:36:57 <Snipa> What?
19:37:04 <Snipa> It's perfectly sensible.
19:37:20 <gingeropolous>   leverage XMR mining to do a microtxn in BAT on ETH to earn BAT < i just got lost in that :)
19:37:46 <Snipa> BAT is a microtransaction currency.  So you'd have Brave browsers opt in to mine, then they get rewarded in BAT.
19:37:53 <Snipa> Which is a txn on ETH.
19:38:02 <gingeropolous> gotcha
19:38:10 <Snipa> Plz.  Must keep up with the insanity that is ERC-20 tokens. :P
19:38:11 <hyc> sounds like too many steps, TBH
19:38:22 <gingeropolous> ^^ that was my point with 'wat'
19:39:02 <Snipa> Nah, it's pretty normal. :P
19:39:04 <hyc> and anyway, you can't create something from nothing. if the opt-in-mining isn't worth much in XMR, it won't be worth much in BAT or ETH either
19:39:04 <gingeropolous> all being managed by infua
19:39:13 <gingeropolous> infura
19:39:25 <Snipa> BAT has a much lower value/coin, and is designed to be used in comically small amounts.
19:39:54 <Snipa> So your reward with XMR might not be valuable, but the reward in BAT is possible to use more useful.  But really, it's more 'Go find out how successful they are'
19:40:07 <Snipa> As a content publishing platform, the answer is terrible, but maybe they've got more successful sites.
19:40:09 <hyc> in that case, if web sites have signed up to accept BAT, why wouldn't they accept an equal value of XMR hashrate?
19:40:21 <Snipa> Because running hashes to a pool is complex.
19:40:42 <hyc> seems like a simple HTTP relay to me
19:40:45 <Snipa> BAT requires 0 work on the site's side, other than embedding a meta tag that deals with all the magic, then they can use a centralized gateway to get money out.
19:40:56 <Snipa> Man, if we used HTTP for stratum, my life would be so much easier.
19:41:23 <Snipa> The current hacky JSON over TCP stratum drives me nuts. :P
19:41:52 <hyc> heh. well, we're talking about a new web+mining ecosystem here. we can afford to revamp the mining protocol while we're at it
19:41:54 <Snipa> That being said, not impossible to do, XNP had a HTTP version for supporting web miners for awhile.
19:43:15 <Snipa> Tbh, as a site op, I wouldn't run the infrastructure behind it, and I've got experience running pools/etc.
19:43:29 <Snipa> BAT literally is "Setup wallet, add meta, get money."
19:43:52 <gingeropolous> yeah, i imagine this would eventually exist like that as well
19:44:16 <gingeropolous> selenas primo is very intensive on the infrastructure
19:44:17 <hyc> do web sites get paid in advance? if a user wants to read a page, is the payment before or after?
19:44:24 <Snipa> Neither with BAT.
19:44:33 <Snipa> Users can give money if they want, but it's not required.
19:45:04 <hyc> so the site doesn't need to do any per-user accounting
19:45:07 <Snipa> Nope.
19:45:19 <hyc> then this isn't much more than setting up an equivalent of xmrig-proxy
19:45:30 <hyc> the site doesn't care what happens on that traffic
19:45:47 <Snipa> Except that I don't have to stand up a C application to accept BAT.
19:45:52 <monerobby> There are already browser extensions to mitigate paywalls - without any hashes - since most paywalls are client-side anyways.
19:46:13 <gingeropolous> do tell :)
19:46:18 <sgp_> I agree with Snipa that UX is possibly the biggest part of this
19:46:28 <sgp_> Brave takes essentially no work (except some KYC) to set up
19:46:37 <sgp_> no mining pool or daemon config
19:46:43 <asymptotically> gingeropolous: disabling javascript in your browser usually gets rid of most paywalls on news sites
19:46:49 <monerobby> https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome
19:50:46 <hyc> sgp_: all of this can be streamlined. Add a meta tag to a web site to tell the browser which address to mine to. run pool proxy on web site.
19:51:16 <hyc> browser extension grabs address, talks to proxy to get a job, starts running hashes
19:51:24 <hyc> no explicit user intervention required
19:51:32 <sgp_> the web admin would need to still run the proxy, which would need to be dead simple (right?)
19:51:32 <Snipa> I will propose a question about if people really want to go down the coinhive route again. :P
19:51:55 <hyc> Snipa: this can't be done surreptitiously
19:52:11 <hyc> without the browser extension, you can't mine
19:52:28 <Snipa> Uhuh, and browser extenstions can't be silently loaded with exploits.
19:52:42 <sgp_> yeah but they already are and are removed
19:52:50 <Snipa> And as it'd probally be a centralized extension, no store would accept it.
19:53:01 <Snipa> Which would mean it's going to be a developer-mode only extension.
19:53:09 <sgp_> mining is the least malicious thing right? compared to stealing full web history, clipboard, etc?
19:53:18 <sgp_> agree on the store acceptance being a hard sell
19:53:18 <hyc> what do you mean centralized extension?
19:53:35 <Snipa> Well, does each site run their own extension, or does it come from a centralized repository?
19:53:52 <Snipa> Because if you legitimately think that a site admin is going to write, publish, run, and update their own extension, you're nuts.
19:53:54 <hyc> there only needs to be one extension. there only needs to be one AdBlocker extension
19:54:10 <Snipa> Adblocker has been removed from google's store 3 times in the last 6 months.
19:54:20 <Snipa> Mining extenions got purged all over the place.
19:54:20 <sgp_> user would say yes/no to all mining requests right? just one extension. sorta like metamask
19:54:24 <hyc> the site admin has to install the pool proxy, not the browser extension
19:54:40 <Snipa> Which means you'd have to offer the extension as a sideload, increasing UX friction.
19:55:02 <sgp_> as I said the risk of store removal is true
19:55:16 <Snipa> s/risk/ensured happening/
19:55:18 <sgp_> best chance is to make it super user-protection focused but still could be removed
19:55:33 <hyc> You have to examine the reasons for removal in each case
19:56:04 <hyc> and how those extensions were advertised and actually behaved.
19:56:33 <Snipa> When the large store distributors have pretty much banned mining at this point, you're going to deal with it one way or another.
19:56:41 <sgp_> yeah probably
19:56:54 <Snipa> Google will never allow it, as it interferes directly with their primary profit line.
19:57:07 <hyc> good point
19:57:08 <sgp_> Snipa: I downloaded Ublock origin yesterday from their store
19:57:25 <Snipa> Go take a look through their git complaints about google dropping them randomly from the store. :P
19:57:39 <hyc> heh. how do they keep getting re-accepted?
19:57:40 <Snipa> They've had 3 seperate incidents where only public outrage has gotten them reinstated.
19:58:22 <hyc> too bad google has a clear conflict of interest here, oh well
19:58:22 <sgp_> I just think it's a little more nuanced than "google thinks it's bad"
19:58:34 <Snipa> You give Google way too much credit.
19:58:45 <sgp_> google is a huge company with many moving parts. they can't get messaging right lol
19:59:04 <Snipa> Messaging was fine, when it was XMPP based.
19:59:19 <hyc> harhar
19:59:34 <Snipa> Hey, I connected fine with an XMPP client, and didn't have to deal with their terrible UI's.
19:59:42 <Snipa> It wasn't IRC levels of smooth, but XMPP != IRC.
19:59:47 <sgp_> all I'm trying to say is that the risks you bring up are totally legit, but I don't think it's 100% certain failure. More like 70% failure :p
20:00:08 <Snipa> As someone who got screwed by google to the tune of 30-40k. :P
20:00:36 <sgp_> yeah well luckily we're not really invested here :)
20:00:49 <sgp_> google removes it? oh well we tried
20:01:12 <sgp_> I'm more concerned with admins having to install the proxy tbh
20:01:50 <Snipa> Meh, if I ever get inspired enough to finish XNP's new update, it'll be trivial for anyone running on a decently sized (Non-cPanel) server they have sufficient access to.
20:02:08 <Snipa> Single point daemon, statically compiled, no external dependancies.
20:02:48 <Snipa> I've just not wanted to figure out how to get RX into my codebase yet.
20:03:26 <sgp_> yeah but the only people who will use it are using cpanel :p
20:06:28 <sgp_> in any case, I think being able to point the daemon to a pool would be extremely useful for every use-case that comes out of this
20:06:51 <sgp_> including the most obvious of someone running an open node and asking for hashes to provide blocks
20:22:19 <kinghat> https://coil.com/ i think they are working to get a web payment standard setup. so any service you would just hook into it.
20:23:37 <Snipa> So is Steem, PayPal, etc.  Lots of web payment "standards"
20:24:35 <sgp_> coil looks like more of a subscription service
20:24:41 <sgp_> kinda like medium
20:24:58 <kinghat> no i mean a web standard metatag
20:25:47 <Snipa> Meta tags are inherently non-standardized.  OpenGraph is the closest we've got to a standard so far.
20:25:58 <Snipa> I just got done with a 2 week project dealing with meta scraping. :P