-
rupee[m]
.xmr
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: ≈$258.3131 • ≈ value of: 1 XMR • Source: cmc/ccc/altm
-
Bill48105
kek there's the reason: [17:05:35] <Wallet> ALERT! Locked account access attempt: rottenwheel@freenode
-
rottenwheel
Bill48105 you have rottenwheel banned? Figures. lol.
-
Bill48105
yeah that's what i said.. pfft
-
rottenwheel
mmxxx doesn't have anything to do with that. was just saying it works in the dogecoin room, with doge. but it doesn't on here.
-
Bill48105
you are obviously using a different account
-
rottenwheel
not that he hasn't been banned before.
-
» rottenwheel shrugs
-
Bill48105
not sure what your attitude is about but keep it up & you can remain locked
-
rottenwheel
rotten on freenode, which i haven't been for more than 2-3 weeks. rottenwheel on matrix. registered wheel on freenode a week or so ago.
-
rottenwheel
i think you just don't connect the dots and see it's the same ole rotten, old man.
-
Bill48105
as i said earlier there's multiple reasons accounts get locked. if you re-use a previously used account on freenode it'll be locked
-
rottenwheel
i don't care either. keep it locked. :*
-
Bill48105
you know how many asshole trolls I deal with on a daily basis? no time to sort one rotten from another
-
rottenwheel
lol.
-
rottenwheel
you never change, i never change. business as usual. cc. mmxxx
-
Bill48105
if you need further help discuss it in one of the bot channels. no sense blowing this channel up with nonsense
-
apotheon
rupee[m]: Thanks for your generosity to the #monero community.
-
strike
.faucet
-
Wallet
strike: Of 7 & 3, which is 7
-
strike
1
-
Wallet
strike: Oops that is not correct. Try again later.
-
strike
.faucet
-
strike
.faucet
-
Wallet
strike: @bonuspot tipped 0.0000023 XMR to strike [3a4d3b4b] Wait ≈23 hrs 57 min before trying again. @bonuspot: 0.01233975
-
lvxtmskvsqy
What kind of person steals from own community? np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6d5yt5/_/ Your own leaders are laughing at how stupid you are for falling for thier 'Magical Crypto Friendship'
-
Bill48105
never gets old..
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
If I set username and password for RPC on my monerod server, are those credentials sent in the clear in plain text when my wallet connects to that server? At least I can't see any certificate-based encryption.
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
Ah, never mind, there's `--rpc-ssl-*` options
-
grc001[m]
Hey folks, im trying to use trezor suite to exchange btc to xmr, but when i paste the xmr address in receiving address it says "Receiving address is invalid". Anyone getting/gotten this problem before?
-
grc001[m]
The xmr address is correct.
-
grc001[m]
pasted from gui and into trezor suite
-
grc001[m]
checked address on trezor in gui. not sure
-
ferox_thinkpad
-
melona
hello
-
moneromooo
hi
-
melona
after merge mining code added now tx is not acceptable
-
melona
i think that is a byte size issue
-
melona
i added 35bytes but still error
-
melona
before everything was ok
-
moneromooo
You mean the add_aux_pow patch ?
-
melona
yes
-
moneromooo
You merged it manually, or pulled the new monero code (it's merged now).
-
melona
just git recursive
-
moneromooo
Did you make any other changes ?
-
melona
no
-
moneromooo
What is the error message you're getting ?
-
melona
on this file cryptonote_format_utils.cpp u have added tx extra right
-
melona
if i change it with zero 0x00 is ok?
-
moneromooo
You should not need to change the code, it's supposed to work.
-
moneromooo
What is the error message you're getting ?
-
melona
"Failed to parse transaction from blob"
-
moneromooo
Is the tx in the monero chain ?
-
melona
no new chain
-
moneromooo
Print it as hex (print_block is monerod), then run: monero-utils-deserialize --input FOO
-
moneromooo
Replace FOO with the hex you got
-
moneromooo
Give the the right path for the binary (eg, build/release/bin etc)
-
moneromooo
You must have built monero with debug, or release with debug utils enabled.
-
moneromooo
Do this with both the old monero tree and the new one. See if one or both fails to parse.
-
moneromooo
Sorry, print_tx TXID +hex, not blcok.
-
moneromooo
Or just paste the tx hex on paste.debian.net so I can have a look.
-
melona
ok
-
melona
i didnt explain that first block is not starting so print_block has no meaning because monero dont accept 1block because of merge mining
-
melona
we are talking about new chain from the start
-
moneromooo
You're claiming the tx is accepted without the add_aux_pow patch, but not with the patch, right ? If so, just paste the tx as hex, wherever it comes from.
-
melona
for pasting the tx i need to remove all patch
-
moneromooo
Sure.
-
dEBRUYNE
grc001[m]: Are you using a subaddress (8) or the primary address (4)
-
dEBRUYNE
?
-
nioc
does trezor suite supports xmr?
-
selsta
no
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
monerod is complaining `--rpc-bind-ip permits inbound unencrypted external connections. Consider SSH tunnel or SSL proxy instead. Override with --confirm-external-bind`. Why does it say that it would permit unencrypted connections when I have `rpc-ssl=enabled` also set?? I want to allow external connections, but only encrypted external connections.. What should I do?
-
moneromooo
--rpc-ssl enabled seems right. Can you post your entire comand lime ?
-
moneromooo
Nevermind, the "unencrypted" wording seems old, and was not updated after RPC SSL got added.
-
moneromooo
I'll fix it, in the meantime it's just telling you "this is listening to other machines, please confirm".
-
moneromooo
vtnerd: I'm not actually sure what's a good wording. Should we still suggest "SSH tunnel or SSL proxy" now that monerod can force SSL ?
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
moneromooo: Great, thanks! 👍️
-
gingeropolous
i need to learn fuckin python
-
gingeropolous
the fact that this is taking so long in bash is sad
-
AmbiguousYelp[m]
Would be cool if there was a POS system with ring signatures, have you seen how little energy nano uses compared to bitcoinm
-
nselhrjtssqq
Dear fireice_uk. I must strongly object to you reporting our great Monro community members to Freenode for racism AND getting people K-lined as a result! i.imgur.com/R0T9GGY.png THEY ARE NOT NEO-NAZI!!! THEY ARE JUST SAYING NEO-NAZI THINGS!! i.imgur.com/JYu44As.png I know this because they have been nice to me and made me their Magical Crypto Friend! If you don't cease immediately I shall throw another tantrum!
-
nselhrjtssqq
Monero Community Member PS. You are interrupting my session of masturbation to The Man in the High Castle.
-
vtnerd
um
-
vtnerd
I guess mention SSH tunne and SSL mode
-
vtnerd
SSL proxy still may be useful if someone has exotic config, but anyone attempting that likely knows about SSL proxying
-
vtnerd
SSH mode is interesting for people who already have two way auth setup
-
vtnerd
no need to do any extra work with SSL certs
-
gingeropolous
goddamnit my array split the stirng into 2 variables on the array
-
gingeropolous
sonofsodsindsfdsf
-
gingeropolous
well here's my ugly as hell bash script to mitigate this ddos in case any public remote node folks need it:
termbin.com/qn8h
-
gingeropolous
makes the attack more expensive because attacker can only make n connections per ip
-
gingeropolous
lza_menace, ^
-
gingeropolous
sethsimmons, ^
-
gingeropolous
forget who else
-
gingeropolous
i forget who else, i mean
-
gingeropolous
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
When a wallet connects to a node that uses SSL, how does the wallet verify the certificate? Does it accept it automatically if it's CA verified? Or does it accept every time no matter what? Can I somehow see if the connection is SSL encrypted and what is the used certificate?
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
(In my node, I'm using nginx as a reverse proxy, so the node itself isn't using SSL, just nginx in front of it. Not sure if it's a good idea, but this way I was able to very easily set up Let's Encrypt automatic certificates.)
-
dryafloat[m]
Any1 think crypto is starting to become more mainstream now? As ppl are more aware of it now than before?
-
charolastra
dunno, for me it doesn't feel close to 2017 levels
-
moneromooo
It uses a whitelist, unless you tell it to accept any random CA.
-
dryafloat[m]
<charolastra "dunno, for me it doesn't feel cl"> What happened in 2017?
-
charolastra
was the past peak. everyone and their mother sold their houses to buy coins
-
JaakkoLuttinen[m
moneromooo: Ok, I can't find any related options in the GUI. It just connected without asking anything to a node that has a self-signed certificate and supports SSL only..
-
moneromooo
Maybe the whitelist thing got removed then...
-
dryafloat[m]
<charolastra "was the past peak. everyone and "> Damn, 2017 must've been a wild ride for many
-
moneromooo
vtnerd: did you remove the whitelist default ? Kinda rings a bell. I see no obvious mention of this in git logs.
-
moneromooo
Oh wow. I did not add SSL. I could have sworn I had. My memory's going to shit :S
-
ieatglueinthegul
<dryafloat[m] "Any1 think crypto is starting to"> I can't wait for BTC to crash and wipe out all the other garbagecoins from the market with it
-
leonardus
ieatglueinthegul: while we're at it, can the entire NFT market please go away too
-
ieatglueinthegul
It absolutely will imo
-
louipc
never
-
dryafloat[m]
<leonardus "ieatglueinthegulag: while we're "> Imo highly unlikely, given how much money is being spent on it. It is absurd, it truly is. But there is a market and ppl are invested heavily on it
-
boogerlad
I've seen some discussions on github about removing support for integrated addresses and the "tx_extra" field late 2021. However, the discussions are fragmented amongst multiple threads and there was no clear consensus from what I could tell. What's the latest status?
-
apotheon
leonardus: There could be useful purposes for non-fungible tokens, but what I'm seeing mostly seems to be intellectual flatulence turned into weird get-rich-quick schemes to fleece the credulous.
-
apotheon
leonardus: I did see something about using NFT technology to automate the establishment of Delaware LLCs, which looks like it could be promising. I haven't looked into it enough yet, or thought about it enough, to figure out for sure whether this seems like a good idea with a good execution behind it, but the notion is a lot more interesting than trying to treat a digital image file stored in a
-
apotheon
blockchain like a valuable object unique within the whole world even when there are non-NFT duplicates of it.
-
apotheon
leonardus: My sense of where NFTs could become useful is in three cases: one is authentication of something (e.g. a way to establish authorship, perhaps); one is a way to establish a canonical record of something tangibly unique (e.g. title to a piece of real estate); and one is establishing a mechanism of control for something programmatically unique (e.g. title to some rivalrous thing within
-
apotheon
the limited case of a closed digital system like an object in a shared virtual world or identification by unique label within a self-enforcing registry).
-
apotheon
leonardus: Most of the hype I see is around crap like trying to reinvent DRM somehow, which is absurd because all you have to do to circumvent that is to make a copy of the thing outside the current NFT-referenced context.
-
apotheon
dryafloat[m]: I think the "market" for this NFT stuff is akin to pogs or beanie babies -- but worse, because once you take one of these digital beanie babies outside its blockchain context it ceases to be a non-fungible thing.
-
lord_fomo[m]
lel nfts finally poppin eh
-
lord_fomo[m]
aren't nfts only useful in the use cases where you need a trustless blockchain (yet again)
-
lord_fomo[m]
the artist could just have a private db with a signed key in it
-
lord_fomo[m]
they don't need a blockchain
-
apotheon
Yeah, that's the basic reason for why I came to the conclusions I indicated in that wall of text of mine above.
-
lord_fomo[m]
most of everything people are talking about frankly doesn't need a blockchain
-
lord_fomo[m]
it's just that they're all so under educated in why a blockchain is useful that we get this fluff
-
apotheon
Without a need for a trustless single-point-of-truth for something, and without substantive historical value to the identification of a record, it all seems to be just silly games.
-
lord_fomo[m]
yup
-
apotheon
Even the idea of real estate titles on the blockchain only works with the addition of meatspace enforcement which, in turn, depends on a lot of cultural buy-in.
-
lord_fomo[m]
was just trying to explain this to a banking friend
-
lord_fomo[m]
yah you basically need a heard to agree on the value dictated by the ledger
-
apotheon
The real estate cases is by far the weakest example I offered, and it could only really work in the world as it is now if a government just decides that's how it should start storing title data.
-
lord_fomo[m]
* yah you basically need a herd to agree on the value dictated by the ledger
-
moneromooo
The idea of real estate titles without a blockchain also only works with the addition of meatspace enforcement.
-
apotheon
s/cases/case/
-
lord_fomo[m]
you only need the RE thing though if you have trustless entities trading the deeds
-
apotheon
moneromooo: exactly why the real estate title *could* work
-
lord_fomo[m]
which usually isn't the case because the state has their hands in it for taxes
-
apotheon
My point is that the blockchain solution itself isn't sufficient.
-
lord_fomo[m]
so the blockchain ends up mostly useless yet again since the state has to keep centralized tabs
-
apotheon
. . . any more than the county records solution itself isn't sufficient.
-
lord_fomo[m]
and at that point you might as well "serialize" trust to them
-
apotheon
leonardus: I think trustless entities trading deeds is something a lot of people might want.
-
apotheon
(I don't, however, necessarily think it's a good idea.)
-
moneromooo
It could refer to the state of the chain to know who to beat up :)
-
lord_fomo[m]
lol
-
lord_fomo[m]
except the state doesn't want you getting all that transparency
-
lord_fomo[m]
part of the problem of power
-
lord_fomo[m]
you can't have corrupt power and transparency
-
lord_fomo[m]
ok so who knows the deats about cake wallet?
-
lord_fomo[m]
how actual non-KYC is it?
-
apotheon
Having trustless deed exchanges paired with blockchain title records would actually make real estate taxes easier to assess and enforce, and would also make it easier in principle for people to figure out who owns a piece of land, I suppose.
-
lord_fomo[m]
i'm seeing this wyre 3rd party shit
-
lord_fomo[m]
> Having trustless deed exchanges paired with blockchain title records would actually make real estate taxes easier to assess and enforce, and would also make it easier in principle for people to figure out who owns a piece of land, I suppose.
-
apotheon
Oh, I see what moneromooo said was much more succinct than my explanation of the same idea.
-
lord_fomo[m]
right but none of these can't be solved by centralized public dbs
-
lord_fomo[m]
you don't actually need a blockchain for this
-
apotheon
leonardus: What is "wyre"?
-
lord_fomo[m]
if the govmt stamps each transaction then why do you need an algo to
-
leonardus
apotheon: I don't know, I never mentioned that
-
apotheon
leonardus: sorry
-
apotheon
I meant lord_fomo[m]
-
apotheon
.
-
lord_fomo[m]
i dunno
-
lord_fomo[m]
it's listed under the wallet deats
-
apotheon
Shit. I replied to lord_fomo[m] using leonardus' name more than once. I apologize for that.
-
lord_fomo[m]
no worries
-
lord_fomo[m]
i mean they have to do the fiat swap somehow
-
lord_fomo[m]
so i'm guessing they use this wyre service to do that
-
lord_fomo[m]
then issue you units of btc / xmr
-
apotheon
Oh, is "wyre" the name of some kind of service allegorical to a "wire service"?
-
lord_fomo[m]
also interesting they just delegate to electrum for btc underneath
-
lord_fomo[m]
i dunno
-
lord_fomo[m]
that's why i'm asking
-
lord_fomo[m]
someone in here said that cake was decent
-
apotheon
hmm
-
lord_fomo[m]
-
apotheon
I hear it's a good wallet. I have no idea what people generally think of its functionality as an exchange mechanism.
-
lord_fomo[m]
i'm just wondering is there literally any benefit over a big exchange
-
lord_fomo[m]
or is it just mobile for tinas
-
lord_fomo[m]
also, no one has answered my question re KYC and trying to convert fiat -> xmr somewhat anon
-
lord_fomo[m]
if you convert on a big exchange
-
lord_fomo[m]
then go into xmr
-
lord_fomo[m]
then use 2 wallets those funds are now untraceable yes?
-
lord_fomo[m]
the first is obviously tied to whatever KYC account
-
lord_fomo[m]
and on another note
-
lord_fomo[m]
wtf is turtle coin
-
gingeropolous
dude its turtles on a blockchain
-
apotheon
I think, in theory, moving funds around in XMR between different addresses should break their traceability.
-
apotheon
I'm no expert, though.
-
lord_fomo[m]
apotheon: yeah the theory says to me it's pretty straight forward
-
lord_fomo[m]
but waiting for someone to challenge that thot
-
lord_fomo[m]
i mean you can easily have multiple exchange accounts with different emails which require no KYC
-
lord_fomo[m]
so if you're a trader looking to avoid taxes (presuming profitability) i don't know why this wouldn't already be largely prevalent practice for tax evasion
-
lord_fomo[m]
* so if you're a trader looking to avoid taxes (presuming profitability) i don't know why this wouldn't already be largely prevalent practice for evasion
-
lord_fomo[m]
if you were operating in the islands i would assume rolling your own bisq type thing would be massively in demandf
-
lord_fomo[m]
* if you were operating in the islands i would assume rolling your own bisq type thing would be massively in demand
-
lord_fomo[m]
> dude its turtles on a blockchain
-
lord_fomo[m]
they seem to cred xmr for contribs?
-
lord_fomo[m]
-
lord_fomo[m]
also looks like some basis in the cryptonote design
-
lord_fomo[m]
seems cute, anyway
-
apotheon
I suspect many people don't want to avoid taxes -- just minimize them -- because of the perceived dangers of tax evasion, primarily.
-
lord_fomo[m]
heh tell that to amazon
-
apotheon
Oh, I mean capital gains taxes, not sales tax.
-
apotheon
Amazon is probably just trying to figure out what it can get away with ignoring because having to deal with sales tax at Amazon's level is a gigantic pain well beyond the realm of reasonability.
-
moneromooo
I think one of the things that people don't really see about monero is that even if governments end up having total visibility on it (ie, they blanket require all view keys), it still means corps/neighbours/assholes at work can't spy on you (until those leak).
-
apotheon
Yeah, well, "until those leak" is really just trying to put off the inevitable.
-
moneromooo
That's still a step up for bitcoin, even in the sauron scenario.
-
apotheon
Saying that government somehow requires all view keys definitely doesn't imply it acquires them, though.
-
apotheon
"sauron scenario"
-
apotheon
nice
-
apotheon
Unless I'm missing something, demanding them doesn't mean there's any way to universally enforce it.
-
apotheon
Just as some universal ban on the production of gunpowder doesn't make it impossible for people to scrape up the raw materials and make some old-school smokepowder in their garages, demanding all the view keys doesn't magically make it impossible for people to have unsurrendered view keys.
-
apotheon
"smokepowder" meaning black powder of the sort produced before the development of "smokeless" gunpowder
-
lord_fomo[m]
am i not showing on irc again?
-
selsta
you are
-
lord_fomo[m]
kk tx
-
lord_fomo[m]
> just minimize them -- because of the perceived dangers of tax evasion,
-
lord_fomo[m]
apotheon right i just meant amzn got this one backwards
-
lord_fomo[m]
all the -ve perception they took on full armed
-
ieatglueinthegul
<apotheon "Saying that government somehow r"> Quite an important point
-
lord_fomo[m]
> I think one of the things that people don't really see about monero is that even if governments end up having total visibility on it (ie, they blanket require all view keys),
-
lord_fomo[m]
yeah how the hell could you enforce this
-
lord_fomo[m]
"what keys sir"
-
ieatglueinthegul
Piracy has been illegal since the beginning of the internet and it's not like they've managed to actually enforce that
-
lord_fomo[m]
* "what keys sir (cough ghestapo jones)"
-
lord_fomo[m]
* "what keys sir (cough gestapo jones)"
-
apotheon
ieatglueinthegul: Copyright is fundamentally unenforceable. It's an attempt to use force of arms to get everyone to agree that a non-scarce thing is scarce.
-
ieatglueinthegul
Once it's all out there it's just all chaos theory
-
lord_fomo[m]
it's presuming some massive increase in government competancy
-
lord_fomo[m]
which is pretty unlikely
-
apotheon
ieatglueinthegul: It's akin to when . . . I think it was Mordorchusetts . . . passed a law stating that pi was the integer 3.
-
ieatglueinthegul
Such a ban can be enforced preemptively with a lot of violence in an outright dictatorship such as North Korea
-
apotheon
Maybe it was some other New England -ish place.
-
lord_fomo[m]
even then
-
lord_fomo[m]
you can't rip keys out of peoples heads
-
lord_fomo[m]
(at least not yet)
-
apotheon
18:04 < lord_fomo[m]> it's presuming some massive increase in government competancy
-
apotheon
I like the way you phrased that.
-
lord_fomo[m]
heh
-
lord_fomo[m]
i mean governments are mostly a joke
-
apotheon
Enforcement is almost random, in practice.
-
lord_fomo[m]
it's the peeps pulling the strings behind them that are worth keeping a strategy on hand
-
apotheon
That's part of the terrifying nature of considering violation of such laws, though.
-
apotheon
In a way, if enforcement cannot be perfect, making it random is more effective for maintaining control.
-
apotheon
(just see how cult indoctrination and abusive relationships work to understand that point)
-
lord_fomo[m]
i mean they're basically violating laws wholesale right now
-
lord_fomo[m]
re: privacy
-
apotheon
To the extent that enforcement of any law is not random, it's mostly because of targeting people the enforcers and their masters particularly dislike, I think.
-
ferox_thinkpad
-
lord_fomo[m]
ya'll hear about the fb leak
-
lord_fomo[m]
lmao
-
lord_fomo[m]
tell the tinas
-
lord_fomo[m]
their data isn't safe again
-
Mochi101
Tinas?
-
moneromooo
"Insulting word for people not like me"
-
lord_fomo[m]
naw
-
lord_fomo[m]
it's from thatcher
-
lord_fomo[m]
repurposed by retail traders
-
hyc
I suppose better than Talkie Tina from Twilight Zone
-
lord_fomo[m]
basically synon with closed minded naivety
-
lord_fomo[m]
everyone's a tina
-
lord_fomo[m]
in some way
-
lord_fomo[m]
> "Insulting word for people not like me"
-
lord_fomo[m]
so this is strictly incorrect
-
lord_fomo[m]
like i'm a big literary tina
-
lord_fomo[m]
and cryptography tina
-
lord_fomo[m]
but tech tinas generally use things like fb and "texting"
-
lord_fomo[m]
many of them are boomers
-
pixelized[m]
hey, perhaps this is an oversight on my part
-
pixelized[m]
but as far as i know it's not possible to reveal the identity of the sender of a transaction to the recipient
-
pixelized[m]
i.e. if i send .02 XMR to a friend, i cannot include any metadata like 'gift from pixelized'
-
pixelized[m]
that seems like a huge obstacle to adoption of a coin like monero by the general public
-
pixelized[m]
absolutely massive
-
moneromooo
It's hard to add free text, though possible technically. Would ve nice to get every tx to get, say, 200 bytes of encrypted data so you could do that.
-
lord_fomo[m]
pixelized: why does it have to be in channel?
-
pixelized[m]
and i wonder if it would really be that difficult to include some free space in each transaction? obviously if that were publicly readable that would be a risk to privacy
-
pixelized[m]
but encrypt it using the one-time pubkey of the receiver
-
pixelized[m]
and i reckon that wouldn't be an issue anymore
-
lord_fomo[m]
there are already e2ee comms platforms
-
lord_fomo[m]
why does it need to be in channel
-
lord_fomo[m]
i think that you're actually after is xmr integration into a e2ee chat platform
-
pixelized[m]
no
-
lord_fomo[m]
not the other way around
-
pixelized[m]
you wouldn't use monero for general-purpose communication, but let's say you're a business using monero
-
pixelized[m]
if you want to refund one of your customers
-
pixelized[m]
some money
-
lord_fomo[m]
right so you send them an email
-
pixelized[m]
because a product price changed or because they paid to much
-
pixelized[m]
they can't know the extra money they received came from you
-
lord_fomo[m]
just like how banks do test deposits before linking interbank accounts
-
pixelized[m]
and that's an issue
-
lord_fomo[m]
not sure why you need text inside the protocol
-
lord_fomo[m]
doesn't make sense design wise
-
moneromooo
Oh, that's because you're missing some context.
-
pixelized[m]
or, another use case, you've been to a restaurant with some friends, you paid and you want them all to pay you back
-
pixelized[m]
you'd like to know which transaction came from which of your friends then
-
pixelized[m]
but you can't
-
moneromooo
Every client/counterparty is allocated a separate address, to which the business attaches whatever metadata they use.
-
moneromooo
ie, Alice tells Bob, send monero to this address. Then Alice knows it came from Bob, because only Bob has that address.
-
lord_fomo[m]
i don't see why you can't sign some meta + an amount
-
lord_fomo[m]
* i don't see why you can't sign some metadata + an amount
-
lord_fomo[m]
on some other system
-
apotheon
How is it not okay to send an email, like a business would when informing a customer of a refund via credit card balance reimbursement?
-
pixelized[m]
<moneromooo "ie, Alice tells Bob, send monero"> that's fair in some cases, but in the restaurant case you'd have to make a separate address for every single person you're with
-
pixelized[m]
which is fine if you already use separate addresses for every single person you could possibly transact with
-
moneromooo
Yes.
-
pixelized[m]
but that's not the sort of thing most people want to be concerned with
-
lord_fomo[m]
"most tinas"
-
pixelized[m]
i've talked to some relatively normal people about monero and anytime this has come up they've flagged it as a serious issue that would prevent them from wanting to use monero
-
pixelized[m]
'what, i can't tell the recipient that it's a gift without writing them a bloody email?'
-
lord_fomo[m]
but did you offer a solution
-
pixelized[m]
yes
-
lord_fomo[m]
it's an odd world where email is somehow now a hassle
-
apotheon
How do you tell them it's a gift with USD, exactly?
-
lord_fomo[m]
do people hire coders any more or just use excel to do everything still
-
apotheon
If it's just between individuals, SMS is fine, too.
-
pixelized[m]
i don't know about USD, but at least where i live you can include a description with every bank transaction
-
pixelized[m]
and that's common to do as well
-
lord_fomo[m]
sounds like EU
-
lord_fomo[m]
SEPA
-
lord_fomo[m]
er wtv
-
apotheon
Sure, but the bank transaction *itself* between individuals is a bigger hassle than Monero+SMS.
-
lord_fomo[m]
lmao sms
-
lord_fomo[m]
there's a good way to stay transparent
-
apotheon
or Monero+Signal, or Monero+whatever
-
apotheon
lord_fomo[m]: Yes, it is, but let's address one issue at a time.
-
lord_fomo[m]
yeah i'm pretty sure that bank system's "message" is a bunch of complex bs
-
pixelized[m]
also not really, if you want to send money to someone you log into your bank (or you open the app if you're a phone kind of person), click 'send money', type the name of the contact you want to send it to, the amount
-
lord_fomo[m]
and if you were going to implement it with xmr + some other thing you could do it with less headache
-
pixelized[m]
and click send
-
apotheon
When someone refuses Monero adoption because *bank transactions* come with a comment field, these people clearly aren't thinking about the privacy angle yet.
-
pixelized[m]
it's about as convenient as with monero
-
lord_fomo[m]
it's a pure tina thought
-
pixelized[m]
except there's also an option to include a description
-
lord_fomo[m]
convenience and security are literally at odds
-
lord_fomo[m]
like fundamentally
-
pixelized[m]
<apotheon "When someone refuses Monero adop"> no they obviously aren't, and it's not an issue to people who are invested in privacy and whatnot
-
pixelized[m]
but i'm saying i believe it's an obstacle to widespread adoption outside of that sort of community
-
pixelized[m]
<lord_fomo[m] "convenience and security are lit"> often, but not always
-
apotheon
I only mentioned the privacy thing in response to lord_fomo[m] complaining about SMS. Obviously, there are more private equivalents to SMS.
-
pixelized[m]
in this case they're at odds because this is not a feature of monero
-
lord_fomo[m]
you aren't going to get adoption until there's a massive cultural shift to proper valuation of privacy
-
apotheon
pixelized[m]: My point to *you* was "just send a text message".
-
pixelized[m]
but it could be, without (unless i'm blind) any ramifications for privacy
-
lord_fomo[m]
then the tradeoff equation gets reweighted
-
apotheon
Logging into a bank website to send stuff is still more work than that.
-
lord_fomo[m]
and the tinas realize they are hooked to puppet strings
-
apotheon
lord_fomo[m]: I don't think just dismissing everything "because tinas" is helping anything.
-
lord_fomo[m]
<pixelized[m] "often, but not always"> no, always
-
» tina agrees
-
lord_fomo[m]
🥰
-
Guest63698
Damn. Taken.
-
lord_fomo[m]
you can't have more security and more convenience
-
lord_fomo[m]
ever encrypted your hdd?
-
lord_fomo[m]
come back and tell us all about how fun it was
-
hyperkitty
With my own self-made magnets.
-
pixelized[m]
no, but for any level of security there's a spectrum of convenience
-
pixelized[m]
and you can move from the low end to the high end without it being a detriment to security
-
louipc
depends on how bad current security and convenience is
-
lord_fomo[m]
> and you can move from the low end to the high end without it being a detriment to security
-
lord_fomo[m]
sure
-
lord_fomo[m]
but use some metrics
-
apotheon
I'm curious about what kinds of "friends" send each other gifts but don't talk often enough to say "Hey, I sent you $foo XMR. Happy birthday!"
-
lord_fomo[m]
having a "message" presented through some UI in some way can be accomplished so many ways
-
louipc
encryption on phone is basically painless
-
lord_fomo[m]
you don't need to mix up your sw design concerns to do it
-
louipc
if it was part of default install process, might not be as bad
-
lord_fomo[m]
perfect example SMS, MMS
-
lord_fomo[m]
you want to talk about bad design
-
pixelized[m]
<apotheon "I'm curious about what kinds of "> it requires people to think - which is an issue if you're aiming for widespread adoption
-
lord_fomo[m]
let's toss text into the real-time audio system
-
pixelized[m]
namely 'oh which of these transactions could have come from this person'
-
pixelized[m]
'ah it's that one'
-
louipc
surehehhe
-
pixelized[m]
having secure metadata included with transactions is a real selling point for a currency that's meant to actually be used
-
pixelized[m]
(i feel)
-
apotheon
All this "convenience vs. security" stuff seems like an irrelevancy for the practical angle of this discussion.
-
hyperkitty
pixelized[m]: since you've clearly thought about this, what is your rough idea of the maximum size of these messages to catch, say, 80% of uses ?
-
apotheon
It probably could be done on the blockchain, but that does have downsides that may not be at all related to security in the discrete case.
-
apotheon
The question is whether the downsides are sufficient to stand in the way of doing it.
-
apotheon
new Monero fork: Memonero
-
pixelized[m]
<hyperkitty "pixelized: since you've clearly "> 140 bytes ish?
-
lord_fomo[m]
apotheon: fwiw i'm just grumping about mixing unrelated features into a common system
-
lord_fomo[m]
not so much trying to drive home that tradeoff
-
lord_fomo[m]
imo keep the blockchain minimal
-
lord_fomo[m]
and understandable
-
lord_fomo[m]
well built systems should compose well with other such systems
-
apotheon
I kinda feel similarly about the minimalism angle.
-
pixelized[m]
as do i
-
pixelized[m]
i do feel that that's a sound thing to say
-
pixelized[m]
and having a system do one thing and do it well, i can agree with that
-
lord_fomo[m]
*nix partay
-
hyperkitty
Anyway. Monero does have such a system. It is limited to 8 bytes or payload though.
-
pixelized[m]
but it also feels limiting to say that a real-life transaction is just the movement of funds
-
hyperkitty
of payload.
-
pixelized[m]
any transaction has context associated with it
-
apotheon
18:37 < lord_fomo[m]> let's toss text into the real-time audio system
-
apotheon
That's not at all what happened, really.
-
lord_fomo[m]
yeah whether you bot the dip
-
pixelized[m]
heck, even including a pubkey so people can return the funds would be useful
-
hyperkitty
There is a patch to allow free text/size, but it bumped into the tx homogeneity issue, which gives attackers purchase points for spying.
-
lord_fomo[m]
apotheon: i'm being facetious
-
lord_fomo[m]
ish
-
lord_fomo[m]
they did originally lob it into a side channel of TDM systems iirc
-
lord_fomo[m]
but could be wrong
-
pixelized[m]
and arbitrary metadata also adds to what you could do in the realm of automated systems
-
pixelized[m]
imagine you're an insurance company who wants monthly payments from customers
-
apotheon
What happened was that real-time audio got tossed into the data transfer system, then text -- which was one of two basic data formats for that data transfer system -- basically just fell backward into being paired with devices that handle real-time audio.
-
pixelized[m]
if the customers set their monthly transactions up so that their customer ID is included in the metadata
-
apotheon
The audio is all running on the internet.
-
pixelized[m]
all those incoming transactions can be automatically processed and databases can be updated and whatnot
-
apotheon
(except way out at the fringes where the internet hasn't wormed its way into everything yet)
-
pixelized[m]
mails can be sent out to people who are late
-
lord_fomo[m]
oh shit ur right
-
lord_fomo[m]
was introduced in GSM
-
lord_fomo[m]
must be thinking of the NA history
-
apotheon
I think a pubkey for refund is actually something that fits fairly cleanly with the "do one thing well" ethos for Monero.
-
lord_fomo[m]
i'm prolly thinking of sms over pstn or something 😂
-
lord_fomo[m]
so yeah you're right bad example
-
pixelized[m]
also, the insurance company example also illustrates something else
-
pixelized[m]
let's say they ask their customers to set up their transactions so that they send monero monthly, and they also send an email whenever they have transacted
-
apotheon
18:42 < pixelized[m]> if the customers set their monthly transactions up so that their customer ID is included in the metadata
-
lord_fomo[m]
huh it was in the original ss7 mobile spec
-
lord_fomo[m]
wild
-
apotheon
That's a clear use case for a separate receiving address per customer.
-
pixelized[m]
now what? if i send an email without also sending monero
-
pixelized[m]
they're going to have serious trouble since thousands of customers will be paying the exact same amount
-
pixelized[m]
<apotheon "That's a clear use case for a se"> fair enough
-
hyperkitty
It's a clear case for a free text field where the custimer can typo in it, forget it, or generally mess it up.
-
pixelized[m]
in the case of an insurance company you can reasonably expect that that would be the solution
-
apotheon
hyperkitty: I like it. Funded!
-
apotheon
I do feel the concern about the loss of transaction fungibility when messages get attached.
-
lord_fomo[m]
> and arbitrary metadata also adds to what you could do in the realm of automated systems
-
lord_fomo[m]
but at this point, smart contracts wen
-
pixelized[m]
so none of you see how having some easily readable metadata could be a relevant selling point or ever useful in any case?
-
hyperkitty
Then how about putting the messages on IPFS, and include an ipfs hash on chain ? Small! NFT compliant! :D
-
apotheon
Now that I think about it, an out-of-band communication also interferes with fungibility, at least if the fact two people communicated with each other can be determined by an outside party.
-
hyperkitty
Why do you say that ? You seem to have come here with a preconceived idea and do not listen to what was said.
-
lord_fomo[m]
:thonkang:
-
pixelized[m]
<hyperkitty "Then how about putting the messa"> actually sounds smart
-
apotheon
To really make it work, I think might have to be a separate blockchain for comms. One nice thing about blockchains is that you have to get the same amount of data whether *you* receive something or not.
-
pixelized[m]
and like something you could optionally build a system for if there were enough arbitrary metadata space per transaction
-
apotheon
pixelized[m]: I'm having a difficult time coming up with a use-case for the parallel data field (I wouldn't exactly call it metadata, necessarily), but I'm sure there *are* such use cases.
-
anon_udxf6fdz[m]
<pixelized[m] "because a product price changed "> Thanks for the idea
-
anon_udxf6fdz[m]
-
lord_fomo[m]
> so none of you see how having some easily readable metadata could be a relevant selling point or ever useful in any case?
-
lord_fomo[m]
for sure it is
-
lord_fomo[m]
just don't think it should be in core system
-
anon_udxf6fdz[m]
You could build a workflow, where 10 days after the item is marked as shipped the metadata is deleted.
-
pixelized[m]
<anon_udxf6fdz[m] "Thanks for the idea"> no problem 😂
-
hyperkitty
There was a clever proposal to include a refund address in a bulletproof.
-
apotheon
I'm actually having a difficult time these days really grasping the value of IPFS as it's implemented.
-
hyperkitty
Addressing by hash.
-
hyperkitty
ie, protection against tampering.
-
hyperkitty
(my "put it on ipfs" was an obvious joke btw)
-
lord_fomo[m]
apotheon: that's cuz you don't get web 3.0
-
apotheon
Addressing by hash is akin to addressing by IP address, in some respects.
-
pixelized[m]
<hyperkitty "(my "put it on ipfs" was an obvi"> (was just jumping on it to say that you'd need the parallel data field for that sort of thing)
-
apotheon
'kay
-
apotheon
going AFK
-
apotheon
ta
-
pixelized[m]
👋 nice talking
-
-
hyperkitty
-
pixelized[m]
thanks
-
rupee[m]
.fountain
-
rupee[m]
.help
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: I'm a cool multi-coin multi-platform bot by Bill48105. Docs:
bill48105.github.io/wallet | My core commands: .balance .deposit .faucet .ping .soak .tip .val .withdraw | .help <games|share|misc|other> to see others | .help <cmd> for more details.
-
rupee[m]
.jackpot 0.00001
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: [ # | # | $ ] 1x » SHARING 0.00001 XMR [997f40c3] | Total was <= 0. Minimum: 0.000015 XMR. (Min per user met?)
-
rupee[m]
.jackpot 0.000015
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: [ @ | ~ | $ ] 1x » SHARING 0.000015 XMR [a75d368a] | @bonuspot soaked 0.000001 XMR (0.000015 Total) upon 15 users @ 745 minutes boogerlad nioc chaper Gingeropolous nselhrjtssqq louipc leonardus Bill48105 moneromooo Wallet charolastra ferox_thinkpad vtnerd dEBRUYNE hyc [87cb09f0]
-
rupee[m]
woot woot. winner.
-
nioc
rupee[m]: I owe you lunch or dinner
-
nioc
your choice
-
rupee[m]
this one's on bonuspot
-
charolastra
that will be a very cheap dinner :P
-
louipc
txrpe
-
rupee[m]
.soak $1
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: Really soak 0.0037998 XMR? y/n (10s)
-
rupee[m]
y
-
Wallet
rupee[m] soaked 0.00025 XMR (0.0037998 Total) upon 15 users @ 746 minutes moneromooo nselhrjtssqq charolastra hyc dEBRUYNE Gingeropolous louipc boogerlad leonardus vtnerd Wallet chaper nioc Bill48105 ferox_thinkpad @bonuspot (0.0000498 scraps) [f4db7309]
-
louipc
txrpe
-
leonardus
thank you!
-
nioc
meow
-
rupee[m]
.calc 0.07 * 365
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: 25.55
-
rupee[m]
don't quit your day jobs :)
-
nioc
too late
-
rupee[m]
.8ball isittrue
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: UNSURE - Try again
-
ferox_thinkpad
i dont get what just happened
-
rupee[m]
you're rich
-
rupee[m]
.balance
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: • Your balance is: 0.00202317 XMR (≈0.53 USD)
-
charolastra
not even in zimbabwe
-
ferox_thinkpad
how do i check my balance
-
rupee[m]
type .balance
-
ferox_thinkpad
.balance
-
Wallet
ferox_thinkpad: Your default coin is now set to XMR. Change with coins command.
-
Wallet
ferox_thinkpad: • Your balance is: 0.000251 XMR (≈0.07 USD)
-
ferox_thinkpad
is this real XMR?
-
rupee[m]
yes
-
rupee[m]
.help
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: I'm a cool multi-coin multi-platform bot by Bill48105. Docs:
bill48105.github.io/wallet | My core commands: .balance .deposit .faucet .ping .soak .tip .val .withdraw | .help <games|share|misc|other> to see others | .help <cmd> for more details.
-
ferox_thinkpad
how the hell
-
rupee[m]
^ there are the instructions for how to withdraw
-
ferox_thinkpad
ok thanks lol
-
charolastra
so they are actually monero IOUs
-
ferox_thinkpad
ah
-
rupee[m]
right right
-
ferox_thinkpad
so you pay me 7 cents to create my own XMR wallet?
-
charolastra
wait, why don't you have a monero wallet yet?
-
ferox_thinkpad
im a tard
-
ferox_thinkpad
btc + shitcoin holder
-
charolastra
shame on you
-
ferox_thinkpad
i know
-
ferox_thinkpad
fuck btc
-
charolastra
now is your chance!
-
rupee[m]
.deposit
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: Send XMR to 83qSCgosKNphbFN5nhtw5KWusNDXMzTdJ6GkJnkfBuRPFPwSxS7wzGTLyk79VaCC4zNiswgMiUZ1ZduwFw7Tx2gZLpkrqDe | credited after 3 confirms.
-
ferox_thinkpad
so whats the point if not to encourage newbs to enter the game
-
Bill48105
nice thanks for the soak rupee :)
-
rupee[m]
np. thanks for the bot :)
-
dEBRUYNE
rupee[m]: thanks for the drop! :p
-
Bill48105
yup my pleasure. feel free to join one of the channels on matrix that has it too but you found out how to use it here so that works
-
Bill48105
figure with the bridges here in main chain too much bot use will annoy some so it might make sense to use another channel. the bot supports multi channel soaking so people who talk here can get included in soaks in the alt channel if desired to be setup that way
-
Bill48105
that feature was mostly for that purpose because discord for example supports sub channels so it's nice to keep the bot noise split but still include the people in main
-
Bill48105
but yeah i'll quit rambling. happy easter, happy sunday, happy whatever cheers :)
-
hyperkitty
Happy surrendering to palantir!
-
ferox_thinkpad
again, what is the point in this?
-
ferox_thinkpad
no disrespect intended, just don't understand
-
Quotes
-
hyperkitty
The bot ? For having fun really.
-
hyperkitty
For some, maybe losing their monero to games trying to actually gain some instead.
-
rupee[m]
.tip ferox_thinkpad 0.000015 stop asking questions, just take the money
-
Wallet
rupee[m] tipped 0.000015 XMR to ferox_thinkpad [f7df068c]
-
rupee[m]
i guess I broke it
-
ferox_thinkpad
so just sharing monero purely as hobbyists?
-
rupee[m]
yeah, you can tip people - so an easy way to send money to people on chat.
-
ferox_thinkpad
awesome
-
ferox_thinkpad
what kind of tx fee does a $0.07 monero value tx incur?
-
hyperkitty
You can see typical fees on xmrchain.net. I think it's below 2 cents atm.
-
ferox_thinkpad
does a $10,000 tx have the same tx fee as a $10 tx
-
hyperkitty
11e-6 monero seems average. Multiplty by 250 or whatever.
-
hyperkitty
Depends how many inputs. If same number, yes.
-
hyperkitty
The fee is based on tx size, not amount transfered.
-
Bill48105
the tip went rupee did you not see it your end?
-
rupee[m]
it did. it just took a little while.
-
Bill48105
oh ok gotcha this end was instant
-
Bill48105
but yeah the bot is like any tool. it's as useful as your needs & understanding of what it can do
-
rupee[m]
.8ball is the bot the best tool for every job?
-
Wallet
rupee[m]: NO
-
Bill48105
smart bot
-
rupee[m]
^
-
Bill48105
but yeah i can see the "joke" commands annoying people
-
Bill48105
most people wont complaint about getting their favorite coin given to them unless it's so small dust it's annoying.
-
Bill48105
the commands on the bot can be limited per channel too. like only core commands could be allowed here
-
Bill48105
it supports output redirection as well. so say there was #monero-bots this channel could be set to redirect use there (spits out the outcome in other channel with "Please use bot in #monero-bots" rate limited to once per 90 seconds max
-
anovfymcbjsa
When Tari finally comes out, will you dump your Monero to buy it? Will others?
-
chile09[m]
what's Tari
-
hyperkitty
An altcoin based on mimblewimble.
-
hyperkitty
It will be partly merged mined with monero.
-
apotheon
hyperkitty: I think I prefer the name moneromoo.
-
Mochi101
meow
-
hyperkitty
|\/| ( ) ( ) ( )
-
apotheon
The more I read of that pull request thread, the less I like the idea.
-
Mochi101
|\/| E ( ) \/\/
-
apotheon
The fact that there doesn't seem to be a way to do that without compromising anonymity makes me want to find something like Monero without this feature if Monero adopts it.
-
moneromooo
There is: plonk 128 bytes in every tx. If nothing, stuff random data in. If you're sending to more than one person, more htan one of whom needs such data, send > 1 tx.
-
moneromooo
Of course, it means you're hard limited to 128 bytes.
-
moneromooo
It's basically what we now do for integrated addresses. Just increasing the limit from 8 bytes to 128 (or whatever).
-
apotheon
moneromooo: It looks like everyone who's enthusiastically on-board with adding a comment field wants to (perhaps "eventually") remove limits on comment field length, either directly or effectively, though.
-
apotheon
. . . so that, while it's technically possible to do it without compromising anonymity, I'm not sure it's socially possible.
-
moneromooo
Define "socially possible" ?
-
apotheon
as in "people who like the feature and want to expand it more will probably overwhelm those who don't"
-
apotheon
It's kinda the "camel's nose" problem.
-
apotheon
That's how it looks, anyway.
-
moneromooo
Is this intended to be an argument against it, or just a related comment ?
-
apotheon
um
-
apotheon
I'm not sure. I'm just describing my reaction to reading some of that thread of discussion.
-
moneromooo
(mostly because someone who wants arbitrary length can want this regardless of whether there's a fixed length one existing)
-
apotheon
I feel foreboding, and hope that Monero doesn't end up with any compromise to its anonymity.
-
moneromooo
I guess I'm biased, I wanted to keep extra for a long while, hoping people would use it to extend with interesting stuff :/
-
moneromooo
And what we got was stupid "mined by thispool.com" strings -_-
-
apotheon
There are costs involved in trying to find a replacement, such as waiting for one to mature enough to use when the previous niche-filler has already retreated from full utility within that niche.
-
apotheon
I do kinda like the idea of extended functionality like that. I just . . . feel some foreboding.
-
moneromooo
I can't disagree...
-
apotheon
I guess it's "wait and see, and hope things don't turn to shit".
-
apotheon
I also don't want Monero held back by overcautious policy.
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apotheon
ugh
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moneromooo
Actually, we have (or will soon have) merge mining, which is an interesting use of extra.
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apotheon
When will blockchain cryptocurrencies just become enough of a commonplace thing so that we'll have a truly thriving, high practical utility ecosystem of differing implementations so that there's always a good choice for what one wants?
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apotheon
I guess I'm not 100% certain about the benefits of merge mining. I don't know much about the idea.
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moneromooo
You mean, I want to do X, let's use chain Y today ?
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apotheon
I'm not even entirely sure how it's defined.
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apotheon
moneromooo: Yeah, I guess, if I understand the form of your clarification question.
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moneromooo
The idea's to mine blcks which are valid for two chains. So you can mine a second (or third...) chain without extra energy. So more incentive (two block rewards).
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moneromooo
When monero reaches tail emission, this shold provide extra incentive to mine.
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moneromooo
In fact, I guess it does mean more energy, since it should be proportional to incentives... Hmm...
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apotheon
What I mean about a thriving ecosystem of cryptocurrencies is basically this: I don't think the goal is One Cryptocurrency To Rule Them All, but rather shit-tons of cryptocurrencies with real, practical utility "in the present", so that whatever you want to use, and however much you want to use it, it exists and is not so rickety, experimental, or dangerous that there's substantive need to
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apotheon
hesitate -- unless those characteristics are what you want.
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apotheon
Yeah, I don't think I see a huge benefit for energy efficiency just from that, but it does seem like it would potentially improve blockchain/network health.
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apotheon
On the subject of energy efficiency . . . sorta . . . I'm not as worried about the "OMG DESTROY WORLD" argument as I am "OMG UNIVERSAL PEAK ENTROPY".
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apotheon
I do plan to live forever, after all, so that might be a long-term issue.
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apotheon
I think the shorter-term issues are more eminently solvable than people realize, *especially* if we can break funding (and thus research) free of state controls.
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apotheon
hmm
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apotheon
What about . . . merge-mining something like folding@home?
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apotheon
Is that a sensible notion?
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moneromooo
Merge mining requires the exact same PoW to be used.
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apotheon
I guess not. The folding@home part would be the solving part of the mining process, not the thing mined.
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apotheon
yeah, what you said
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moneromooo
There are some PoWs which do "useful" work.
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moneromooo
It might be hard to make something that ties to difficulty well though.
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apotheon
I've heard of such things, but not about them, if you know what I mean, so I'm not sure what projects use "useful" PoW mining, or what "useful" things they're doing.
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moneromooo
ie, you need to tailor the difficulty of the problem you generate.
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apotheon
Calculating PI seems reasonably straightforward as an idea, I guess.
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moneromooo
The one I remember finds Cunningham numbers, which is said to be "useful", for some definition of useful.
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apotheon
Then again, I don't know enough about pi calculation to be sure I'm not talking out of my ass on that.
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moneromooo
But then, actual heating would be even more useful when needed.
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apotheon
true
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moneromooo
IIRC there's a fairly straightforward algorithm for pi. You need something for which the solution isn't massive amounts of data.
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moneromooo
And which is much to verify than to generate.
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apotheon
Mining in winter could save some heating bills.
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apotheon
Maybe I should just mine on cold days.
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apotheon
moneromooo: . . . much *harder* to verify?
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moneromooo
easier
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moneromooo
That's a problem with CN and randomx. They're not trivial to verify.
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moneromooo
Well, two adjacent properties. Fast to verify, and much faster to verify than generate. Since genreating involves calculating many hashes.
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apotheon
hmm
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apotheon
I see what you mean by verify and generate, now. I misunderstood how you were using the terms.
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apotheon
I thought you meant "verify" as in perform the calculation, and "generate" in terms of "write out a block and get it saved".
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apotheon
You meant "generate the result of the calculation" and "verify that it's correct".
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apotheon
I don't know crap about "CN" and "randomx".
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moneromooo
Enough to know they're not super fast to verify.
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apotheon
I *don't* know enough about them to know they're not super fast to verify.
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apotheon
What (separately) are CN and randomx, in a nutshell?
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moneromooo
PoW hash functions monero uses. CN (and variants) since its inception to about 1.5 years ago, randomx since.
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moneromooo
And they're a lot slower to execute than, eg, SHA256.
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apotheon
ah
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apotheon
Was the change from CN to randomx essentially an attempt to move closer to what you described as the need for a PoW scheme?
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moneromooo
No. It was to move to something that's harder for ASICs to run well.
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apotheon
(I have decent native facility for math, I think, but I'm no mathematician. When I was about seven or so, I overheard my father telling an acquaintance that if I gave him a different answer than a calculator he'd check the calculator to make sure there wasn't something wrong with it, but my math education didn't go particularly far.)
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apotheon
Oh, right, I think I knew that at some point.
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apotheon
I want to start seeing what "useful" things people are doing with PoW calculations, now.
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apotheon
I'm not entirely sure what practical use Cunningham numbers offer in general.
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moneromooo
I suspect what practical use Cunningham numbers offer in general is about nil.
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apotheon
I guess I should ask a mathematician who's vaguely conversant with engineering needs to be sure, but . . . yeah, I don't see its use so far.
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apotheon
It probably has high value for someone writing a Master's thesis about Cunningham numbers.
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BigBro91
hey
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BigBro91
Anyone fond of Feather wallet
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leonardus
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hyc
gridcoin was tied in with BOINC or something right?
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hyc
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hyc
sequencing nucleotides sounds like useful work, but damned expensive to verify correctness of results
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as2333
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hyc
there's a method??
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as2333
hyc there's a PATENTED method =)
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hyc
we live in such a high tch world
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hyc
high tech
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hyc
speaking of which, the batteries in my laser pointer are dying. the cats will be so bored.