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kayront
hey monroe researchers, i pasted a link from the renproject forum about adding renXMR (like WXMR but arguably better) some days/a week ago. today I'd like to share this:
docs.renproject.io/developers/renvm-multihain/multichain-requirements -- i don't think (but I don't know for sure) point #2 is a show-stopper, perhaps the same clever crypto/maths that's being leveraged for atomic swaps can be used here; failing that, it must
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kayront
be possible - somehow - to add the necessary compatibility to the ren code itself?
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kayront
now as to why i think this is important .. even if eth<->xmr swaps become possible (not sure at all how much of the research on AS w/ BTC applies to ETH), there is still a point in having some sort of wrapped monero token, because it can be used in defi. furthermore, if (*if* - at the current stage of ren's progress, this is a debatable assertion) we consider than ren is meant to work as a decentralized custodian, just in terms of
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kayront
decentralization it's already preferable to WXMR.
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kayront
i've seen enough flak against ethereum/defi from enough people to try to anticipate some of the criticism of pursuing such avenues -- if this is you, just consider that opening more bridges for ethereum users to park stealth wealth in monero is a desirable thing, or for us to escape volatility into stablecoins and back to XMR in dire times, without having to rely on third parties. only after these considerations do I even begin to
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kayront
consider making profits lending renXMR on defi, which is also an interesting use case, but in my mind far from the most important
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kayront
ok, that's all I wanted to say about this for now :)
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fluffypony
kayront: I definitely want to see more interoperability, but I'm not sure how we would add secp256k1 ecdsa support without having transactions very distinguishable from normal Monero txs
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fluffypony
they probably also won't be able to handle CT
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dEBRUYNE
fluffypony: Wouldn't that problem be avoided if you have some kind of XMR -> wXMR atomic swap?
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dEBRUYNE
Similar to how BTC <-> XMR atomic swaps work
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fluffypony
oh - it's definitely solvable, but what I mean is that ren would have to do things
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fluffypony
and that's where it falls apart
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dEBRUYNE
I suppose the Farcaster team might be interested in pursuing XMR/ETH swaps after the XMR/BTC project has completed
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dEBRUYNE
Whilst there are obviously differences, I think a lot of code and logic can simply be ported
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fluffypony
yes agreed
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kayabaNerve
kayront: From what I remember of that work, ECDSA was about their current tech stack, not the theory.
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kayabaNerve
ETH atomic swaps are completely viable. Wrapping, even MPC wrapping, defeats the purpose of decentralized solutions though
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kayabaNerve
Ren isn't decentralized for a few reasons
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kayabaNerve
It's actually easier to do ETH swaps IMO. There's no requirement to chain trasactions and you get a nicer language to work with.
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kayabaNerve
Ren is theoreticaly capable of becoming decentralized if you accept the fact its still a custodial solution. That said, as of right now, a single group controls every node with keys.
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kayabaNerve
They claim no single employee/manager has access to enough to break its BFT, yet its still a single org.
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kayabaNerve
(and yes, decentralized custody *can* exist)
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dEBRUYNE
kayabaNerve: Is the Farcaster team interested in exploring XMR <-> ETH swaps?
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kayabaNerve
dEBRUYNE: The suite we're building won't be locked to specific coins. Someone just has to step up for the Eth module. I am personally somewhat interested, depending on how good the eth rust tooling is. I do have a lot oif exp with Eth dev
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_I3^RELATIVISM
o/ monero ab
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_I3^RELATIVISM
anybody wants to contribute to this effort?
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_I3^RELATIVISM
Im not the best documentation writer
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_I3^RELATIVISM
and any contributions would be helpfull
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dEBRUYNE
kayabaNerve: I see, thanks
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dEBRUYNE
As a side note, will a January update be posted soon or?
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_I3^RELATIVISM
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kayabaNerve
_I3^RELATIVISM: What are you talking about>
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kayabaNerve
dEBRUYNE: Not something I have an answer for, sorry
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_I3^RELATIVISM
kayabaNerve: ?
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_I3^RELATIVISM
sorry did not understood you
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_I3^RELATIVISM
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kayabaNerve
That link doesn't work
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dEBRUYNE
kayabaNerve: OK
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_I3^RELATIVISM
? kayabaNerve what do you mean
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_I3^RELATIVISM
oh shit 502 again? we need to improve our insfrastructure
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_I3^RELATIVISM
we are being pownded by to many users, need to upgrade
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_I3^RELATIVISM
sorry will look into it
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_I3^RELATIVISM
but the bsic idea is to solve th issue of funding and gvornance in
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_I3^RELATIVISM
FOSS projects
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jakoson0
Why does the Saviour of NASA take a group achievement award and present it as a proof of individual glory? twitter.com/hyc_symas/status/1203709575226183683
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kayront
<fluffypony> kayront: I definitely want to see more interoperability, but I'm not sure how we would add secp256k1 ecdsa support without having transactions very distinguishable from normal Monero txs ---- how about patching *their* code to support what monero uses?
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kayront
<kayabaNerve> Ren isn't decentralized for a few reasons --> right now that's correct, but the plan is to continue towards decentralization. their approach is very interesting (when reality matches the vision laid out)
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kayront
either way, eth/xmr atomic swaps would still be interesting to pursue -- ren has more advantages i think, but the ability to teleport between chains in general is a welcome addition to the arsenal of freedom
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moneromooo
A few weeks ago, I looked at what "wrapped X" tokens were. AFAICT, it's a totally separate IOU crypto, nothing to do with X (except the token creator promises to redeem).
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moneromooo
So it's got to do with X only... the name AFAICT. Otherwise 100% unrelated.
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kayront
that's what makes renXMR special. in a way it's also an IOU of course, since it's not possible to have real monroes in ethereum, but when/if the ren vision comes to be, the real monroes are held by a decentralized custodian, conceptually
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kayront
i assume KYC is also necessary to mint new WXMR, at least it is, or was, with WBTC. of course you can just fetch some in uniswap or whatever. but then sending real BTC or XMR involves a centralized party, and that brings all the usual problems with it
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fluffypony
kayront: yeah that's what I was saying earlier - it would involve their code being modified, and I'm not sure they would be up for it
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kayront
fluffypony: I believe they would be very interested. it just doesn't seem to be a priority right now, and probably the main reason is the hassle to implement it, because monero is different than everything else they support already. but I have no doubt it would pick up like fire if it existed
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kayront
of course, there's that little problem where their code is not open sourced yet
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moneromooo
Further on that train of thought, it's really a stable coin. Except it's stable in X, not in fiat (unless X happens to be fiat).
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moneromooo
(so stable as long as people trust the redeeming is possible at will)
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kayront
.. but that's not necessarily a problem, our people could chat with their people and understand where the hypothetical new pieces would lay and what not. and they might even grant access to the source, maybe just maybe. if not, the code will be open-sourced eventually anyway.
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fluffypony
maybe something like DIGG is a better idea
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fluffypony
DIGG rebases on Bitcoin's price
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fluffypony
(it's just been released so it's hyper-volatile at the moment, but eventually)
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kayront
in this monero is also different, because they have a process in place now to list new coins (the last thing I linked). but in monero's case actually that needs to be swapped around, so to speak
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kayront
fwiw, if you search the telegram group chat history, there are regular "when renXMR?" from randoms regularly
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kayront
moneromooo: i can see what you mean, but i think the main meaning of stablecoin is "pegged to fiat or a commodity". for example, a derivative of TSLA in ethereum would more aptly be called that, rather than a stablecoin
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kayront
IOU better describes what's happening there, imo
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moneromooo
That's what a stable coin is. It's only stable because of the IOU part, and the belief it will be honoured.
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moneromooo
(or the belief you will get rid of it before the honoured part gets shown to be false)
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kayront
i believe people use the term "stablecoin" more as in "i expect this thing to keep a relatable value to my fiat currency (or gold, silver)" .. at least I know I do :D
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moneromooo
Well, if wrapped X is not stable vs X, it loses its last shred of connection to X, does it not...
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kayront
yeah, but that's in another sense of the word. like I said, I understand what you mean(t)
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kayront
for example, I wouldn't say DAI is an IOU, because it's a thing of its own. but it's a stablecoin, because in theory you can always swap 1 DAI for about 1 USD
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kayront
but renXMR would be an IOU, because it's a promise to redeem real monroes for the representation. you could call that a stablecoin too, but then we lose the granularity of the (useful imo) distinction made above
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kayront
(but I understand you mean it's a stablecoin in the sense of 1 renXMR = 1 XMR)