08:11:42 hey monroe researchers, i pasted a link from the renproject forum about adding renXMR (like WXMR but arguably better) some days/a week ago. today I'd like to share this: https://docs.renproject.io/developers/renvm-multihain/multichain-requirements -- i don't think (but I don't know for sure) point #2 is a show-stopper, perhaps the same clever crypto/maths that's being leveraged for atomic swaps can be used here; failing that, it must 08:11:42 be possible - somehow - to add the necessary compatibility to the ren code itself? 08:13:45 now as to why i think this is important .. even if eth<->xmr swaps become possible (not sure at all how much of the research on AS w/ BTC applies to ETH), there is still a point in having some sort of wrapped monero token, because it can be used in defi. furthermore, if (*if* - at the current stage of ren's progress, this is a debatable assertion) we consider than ren is meant to work as a decentralized custodian, just in terms of 08:13:45 decentralization it's already preferable to WXMR. 08:15:51 i've seen enough flak against ethereum/defi from enough people to try to anticipate some of the criticism of pursuing such avenues -- if this is you, just consider that opening more bridges for ethereum users to park stealth wealth in monero is a desirable thing, or for us to escape volatility into stablecoins and back to XMR in dire times, without having to rely on third parties. only after these considerations do I even begin to 08:15:51 consider making profits lending renXMR on defi, which is also an interesting use case, but in my mind far from the most important 08:16:56 ok, that's all I wanted to say about this for now :) 08:51:13 kayront: I definitely want to see more interoperability, but I'm not sure how we would add secp256k1 ecdsa support without having transactions very distinguishable from normal Monero txs 08:51:22 they probably also won't be able to handle CT 08:52:35 fluffypony: Wouldn't that problem be avoided if you have some kind of XMR -> wXMR atomic swap? 08:52:42 Similar to how BTC <-> XMR atomic swaps work 08:53:06 oh - it's definitely solvable, but what I mean is that ren would have to do things 08:53:11 and that's where it falls apart 08:55:51 I suppose the Farcaster team might be interested in pursuing XMR/ETH swaps after the XMR/BTC project has completed 08:56:06 Whilst there are obviously differences, I think a lot of code and logic can simply be ported 09:24:46 yes agreed 09:46:46 kayront: From what I remember of that work, ECDSA was about their current tech stack, not the theory. 09:47:15 ETH atomic swaps are completely viable. Wrapping, even MPC wrapping, defeats the purpose of decentralized solutions though 09:47:22 Ren isn't decentralized for a few reasons 09:48:09 It's actually easier to do ETH swaps IMO. There's no requirement to chain trasactions and you get a nicer language to work with. 09:54:27 Ren is theoreticaly capable of becoming decentralized if you accept the fact its still a custodial solution. That said, as of right now, a single group controls every node with keys. 09:54:50 They claim no single employee/manager has access to enough to break its BFT, yet its still a single org. 10:10:31 (and yes, decentralized custody *can* exist) 11:49:27 kayabaNerve: Is the Farcaster team interested in exploring XMR <-> ETH swaps? 11:55:39 dEBRUYNE: The suite we're building won't be locked to specific coins. Someone just has to step up for the Eth module. I am personally somewhat interested, depending on how good the eth rust tooling is. I do have a lot oif exp with Eth dev 12:05:36 <_I3^RELATIVISM> o/ monero ab 12:05:55 <_I3^RELATIVISM> anybody wants to contribute to this effort? 12:06:07 <_I3^RELATIVISM> Im not the best documentation writer 12:06:29 <_I3^RELATIVISM> and any contributions would be helpfull 12:06:48 kayabaNerve: I see, thanks 12:06:55 As a side note, will a January update be posted soon or? 12:06:57 <_I3^RELATIVISM> https://libregit.org/GVRN/GVRNspec 12:09:37 _I3^RELATIVISM: What are you talking about> 12:09:50 dEBRUYNE: Not something I have an answer for, sorry 12:10:47 <_I3^RELATIVISM> kayabaNerve: ? 12:10:51 <_I3^RELATIVISM> sorry did not understood you 12:11:09 <_I3^RELATIVISM> ^ "https://libregit.org/GVRN/GVRNspec" 12:12:21 That link doesn't work 12:12:44 kayabaNerve: OK 12:13:13 <_I3^RELATIVISM> ? kayabaNerve what do you mean 12:13:46 <_I3^RELATIVISM> oh shit 502 again? we need to improve our insfrastructure 12:14:14 <_I3^RELATIVISM> we are being pownded by to many users, need to upgrade 12:14:21 <_I3^RELATIVISM> sorry will look into it 12:14:54 <_I3^RELATIVISM> but the bsic idea is to solve th issue of funding and gvornance in 12:15:00 <_I3^RELATIVISM> FOSS projects 13:47:04 Why does the Saviour of NASA take a group achievement award and present it as a proof of individual glory? twitter.com/hyc_symas/status/1203709575226183683 14:05:21 <fluffypony> kayront: I definitely want to see more interoperability, but I'm not sure how we would add secp256k1 ecdsa support without having transactions very distinguishable from normal Monero txs ---- how about patching *their* code to support what monero uses? 14:06:22 <kayabaNerve> Ren isn't decentralized for a few reasons --> right now that's correct, but the plan is to continue towards decentralization. their approach is very interesting (when reality matches the vision laid out) 14:09:47 either way, eth/xmr atomic swaps would still be interesting to pursue -- ren has more advantages i think, but the ability to teleport between chains in general is a welcome addition to the arsenal of freedom 14:39:58 A few weeks ago, I looked at what "wrapped X" tokens were. AFAICT, it's a totally separate IOU crypto, nothing to do with X (except the token creator promises to redeem). 14:40:17 So it's got to do with X only... the name AFAICT. Otherwise 100% unrelated. 14:41:27 that's what makes renXMR special. in a way it's also an IOU of course, since it's not possible to have real monroes in ethereum, but when/if the ren vision comes to be, the real monroes are held by a decentralized custodian, conceptually 14:42:34 i assume KYC is also necessary to mint new WXMR, at least it is, or was, with WBTC. of course you can just fetch some in uniswap or whatever. but then sending real BTC or XMR involves a centralized party, and that brings all the usual problems with it 14:44:15 kayront: yeah that's what I was saying earlier - it would involve their code being modified, and I'm not sure they would be up for it 14:45:16 fluffypony: I believe they would be very interested. it just doesn't seem to be a priority right now, and probably the main reason is the hassle to implement it, because monero is different than everything else they support already. but I have no doubt it would pick up like fire if it existed 14:45:30 of course, there's that little problem where their code is not open sourced yet 14:45:34 Further on that train of thought, it's really a stable coin. Except it's stable in X, not in fiat (unless X happens to be fiat). 14:46:08 (so stable as long as people trust the redeeming is possible at will) 14:46:33 .. but that's not necessarily a problem, our people could chat with their people and understand where the hypothetical new pieces would lay and what not. and they might even grant access to the source, maybe just maybe. if not, the code will be open-sourced eventually anyway. 14:46:34 maybe something like DIGG is a better idea 14:46:39 DIGG rebases on Bitcoin's price 14:47:04 (it's just been released so it's hyper-volatile at the moment, but eventually) 14:47:06 in this monero is also different, because they have a process in place now to list new coins (the last thing I linked). but in monero's case actually that needs to be swapped around, so to speak 14:47:50 fwiw, if you search the telegram group chat history, there are regular "when renXMR?" from randoms regularly 14:48:57 moneromooo: i can see what you mean, but i think the main meaning of stablecoin is "pegged to fiat or a commodity". for example, a derivative of TSLA in ethereum would more aptly be called that, rather than a stablecoin 14:49:07 IOU better describes what's happening there, imo 14:51:43 That's what a stable coin is. It's only stable because of the IOU part, and the belief it will be honoured. 14:52:05 (or the belief you will get rid of it before the honoured part gets shown to be false) 14:52:35 i believe people use the term "stablecoin" more as in "i expect this thing to keep a relatable value to my fiat currency (or gold, silver)" .. at least I know I do :D 14:53:27 Well, if wrapped X is not stable vs X, it loses its last shred of connection to X, does it not... 14:54:19 yeah, but that's in another sense of the word. like I said, I understand what you mean(t) 14:54:57 for example, I wouldn't say DAI is an IOU, because it's a thing of its own. but it's a stablecoin, because in theory you can always swap 1 DAI for about 1 USD 14:55:30 but renXMR would be an IOU, because it's a promise to redeem real monroes for the representation. you could call that a stablecoin too, but then we lose the granularity of the (useful imo) distinction made above 14:56:24 (but I understand you mean it's a stablecoin in the sense of 1 renXMR = 1 XMR)