some interesting output stats, thanks to needmoney90 for pointing out a much better way of tracking the chains

very interesting that backward chain length>=7: goes from 12.6% after 1 week, to 39.0% after 2 weeks, to 58.7% after 4 weeks

that's % of outputs that exist within a chain at least that long

from that output backwards

Code for that?

Thanks knaccc!

Reminder that the weekly research meeting is today at 17:00 UTC

-____-

Whoops, intended for -lounge, sorry :/

Saw that today lol

#notsurprised

Will move this conversation to -lounge...

(#monero-research-lounge, that is)

Too lazy to look which letter is different lol

Last one

Ah

So secure

The meeting will start in just a few minutes

OK, let's get started!

The usual agenda: monero-project/meta #483

Logs will be posted there after the meeting

First, GREETINGS

hello

Hi

I probably can't hang around for the full meeting, can I drop quick notes?

Sure

Go ahead Isthmus

We're mostly turning our attention towards solutions now, though we did just note yesterday that if Keccak pre-image is the last line of defense against Shor's then with Grover's even with an outside observer it can be potentially be broken. Though the can can be kicked down the road by increasing key size

Unrelated, I've been looking at 0-value transactions lately

I don't think this is a big threat for Monero based on default behavior of miners

This feels very similar to an attack on Zcash that was reported a long while ago

I think it's probably applicable to most privacy coins

Reminiscent of the sapling woodchipper, but I don't think they explored 0-value, just low-value/big-size

Anywho, that's all from me

Sapling doesn't enforce strictly positive values, right?

And fees are fixed (or at least, not dependent on factors like size or outputs)

Not sure. Protocol definitely allows 0-fee txns, I found like 2000 on-chain

afaik

Ehhh

Not "fixed"

Fixed is the wrong term here

"Recommended" to be 0.0001 ZEC, which about 98% of transactions follow.

Fees are independent of size/outputs, right?

Fees are 100% arbitrary, you can slap anything in there

Right, you can just set a fee to be 0.0001 ZEC and have a ton of outputs

Yep

Meaning DoS

This is _still_ an issue, right?

(off topic, I know)

Privacy combined with gratis can be deadly since censorship cannot be used to fight spam

Yeah, I've had some chats with Zcash/ECC folks, and they've discussed the for a better way to handle market selection. (Chats with individuals, not speaking officially)

Hmm ok; it was reported quite a while ago, and the reaction seemed to be "shrug"

Anyway, hopefully lessons we can learn from that

hello

I know some in ECC/ZF are extremely opposed to the idea of fee markets

I don't really get that

but whatever

Anyway, thanks Isthmus

Any other updates to share?

Thanks

OK, we can continue with ROUNDTABLE, where anyone is welcome to share research of interest to this group

Does anyone have something they wish to share?

I have completed my fee and scaling analysis with recommendations for issue 70

Excellent; go on!

Will be postig there this week

Ah ok

Please let us know when this happens Arc

ArticMine:

*

The basic idea is a dynamic penalty free zeon based upon the long term median

In any case I'll post here when issue 70 is updated

Great

I've been working on CLSAG, Triptych, and Arcturus this week

Hardware device support for CLSAG is proceeding nicely, and should be in place for the upgrade

Its preprint has been updated, and addresses reviewer recommendations

I have a blog post ready to go, as well

Triptych and Arcturus received small updates

Triptych was submitted to an ESORICS workshop

and Arcturus is still under consideration for PoPETs, though I've been working on an improved security model related to that used in Omniring

good times

There will be a developer meeting this Sunday at 17:00 UTC to discuss the upgrade timeline

Are there any questions on these topics?

OK, does anyone else wish to share any research topics of interest?

super quick meeting

For sure

Well, if there aren't any other topics, we can move to ACTION ITEMS, anything people wish to share that they intend to tackle this week

I've been working on a bunch of ideas for improving the Omniring security model for use in Triptych/Arcturus, which has been a fun but frustrating challenge

as well as on-chain output analysis

These will continue this week!

As well as working with the CLSAG audit team to finalize their report for public release

Anyone else?

A super quick meeting indeed :D

All right, in that case, we can adjourn!

Thanks to everyone for attending

Logs will be posted to the GitHub agenda issue shortly

Isthmus any news on the fixed-reward for coinbase patch? IIRC it was slated for last weekend (or is it this coming weekend?)

256-bit hashes are safe from Grover's search for the forseeable future