01:22:14 <knaccc> some interesting output stats, thanks to needmoney90 for pointing out a much better way of tracking the chains
01:22:18 <knaccc> https://paste.debian.net/plain/1156433
01:23:08 <knaccc> very interesting that backward chain length>=7: goes from 12.6% after 1 week, to 39.0% after 2 weeks, to 58.7% after 4 weeks
01:23:29 <knaccc> that's % of outputs that exist within a chain at least that long
01:24:01 <knaccc> from that output backwards
01:55:15 <sarang> Code for that?
02:27:16 <knaccc> https://paste.debian.net/1156437/
12:56:52 <sarang> Thanks knaccc!
14:38:56 <sarang> Reminder that the weekly research meeting is today at 17:00 UTC
16:10:27 <sarang> https://mobile.twitter.com/SoatokDhole/status/1283200790883074049
16:10:30 <sarang> -____-
16:10:40 <sarang> Whoops, intended for -lounge, sorry :/
16:11:05 <fort3hlulz> Saw that today lol
16:11:07 <fort3hlulz> #notsurprised
16:14:50 <sarang> Will move this conversation to -lounge...
16:16:30 <sarang> (#monero-research-lounge, that is)
16:17:38 <dEBRUYNE> Too lazy to look which letter is different lol
16:17:52 <sarang> Last one
16:18:15 <dEBRUYNE> Ah
16:18:18 <dEBRUYNE> So secure
16:56:48 <sarang> The meeting will start in just a few minutes
17:00:30 <sarang> OK, let's get started!
17:00:35 <sarang> The usual agenda: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/483
17:00:41 <sarang> Logs will be posted there after the meeting
17:00:44 <sarang> First, GREETINGS
17:00:45 <sarang> hello
17:00:48 <ArticMine> Hi
17:00:56 <Isthmus> I probably can't hang around for the full meeting, can I drop quick notes?
17:01:05 <sarang> Sure
17:01:08 <sarang> Go ahead Isthmus
17:01:15 <Isthmus> We're mostly turning our attention towards solutions now, though we did just note yesterday that if Keccak pre-image is the last line of defense against Shor's then with Grover's even with an outside observer it can be potentially be broken. Though the can can be kicked down the road by increasing key size
17:01:38 <Isthmus> Unrelated, I've been looking at 0-value transactions lately
17:01:40 <Isthmus> https://github.com/Mitchellpkt/stingy_spammer
17:01:56 <Isthmus> I don't think this is a big threat for Monero based on default behavior of miners
17:02:25 <sarang> This feels very similar to an attack on Zcash that was reported a long while ago
17:02:43 <Isthmus> I think it's probably applicable to most privacy coins
17:03:38 <Isthmus> Reminiscent of the sapling woodchipper, but I don't think they explored 0-value, just low-value/big-size
17:03:59 <Isthmus> Anywho, that's all from me
17:04:00 <sarang> Sapling doesn't enforce strictly positive values, right?
17:04:19 <sarang> And fees are fixed (or at least, not dependent on factors like size or outputs)
17:04:20 <Isthmus> Not sure. Protocol definitely allows 0-fee txns, I found like 2000 on-chain
17:04:20 <sarang> afaik
17:04:30 <Isthmus> Ehhh
17:04:32 <Isthmus> Not "fixed"
17:04:39 <sarang> Fixed is the wrong term here
17:04:46 <Isthmus> "Recommended" to be 0.0001 ZEC, which about 98% of transactions follow.
17:04:47 <sarang> Fees are independent of size/outputs, right?
17:04:58 <Isthmus> Fees are 100% arbitrary, you can slap anything in there
17:05:01 <sarang> Right, you can just set a fee to be 0.0001 ZEC and have a ton of outputs
17:05:05 <Isthmus> Yep
17:05:06 <sarang> Meaning DoS
17:05:11 <sarang> This is _still_ an issue, right?
17:05:17 <sarang> (off topic, I know)
17:05:53 <ArticMine> Privacy combined with gratis can be deadly since censorship cannot be used to fight spam
17:06:01 <Isthmus> Yeah, I've had some chats with Zcash/ECC folks, and they've discussed the for a better way to handle market selection. (Chats with individuals, not speaking officially)
17:06:16 <sarang> Hmm ok; it was reported quite a while ago, and the reaction seemed to be "shrug"
17:06:23 <sarang> Anyway, hopefully lessons we can learn from that
17:06:38 <sgp_> hello
17:06:43 <sarang> I know some in ECC/ZF are extremely opposed to the idea of fee markets
17:06:48 <sarang> I don't really get that
17:06:49 <sarang> but whatever
17:07:02 <sarang> Anyway, thanks Isthmus
17:07:06 <sarang> Any other updates to share?
17:07:09 <ArticMine> Thanks
17:08:10 <sarang> OK, we can continue with ROUNDTABLE, where anyone is welcome to share research of interest to this group
17:08:17 <sarang> Does anyone have something they wish to share?
17:08:42 <ArticMine> I have completed my fee and scaling analysis with recommendations for issue 70
17:08:51 <sarang> Excellent; go on!
17:08:51 <ArticMine> Will be postig there this week
17:08:56 <sarang> Ah ok
17:09:03 <sarang> Please let us know when this happens Arc
17:09:05 <sarang> ArticMine:
17:09:06 <sarang> *
17:09:19 <ArticMine> The basic idea is a dynamic penalty free zeon based upon the long term median
17:09:52 <ArticMine> In any case I'll post here when issue 70 is updated
17:10:03 <sarang> Great
17:10:42 <sarang> I've been working on CLSAG, Triptych, and Arcturus this week
17:11:12 <sarang> Hardware device support for CLSAG is proceeding nicely, and should be in place for the upgrade
17:11:23 <sarang> Its preprint has been updated, and addresses reviewer recommendations
17:11:34 <sarang> I have a blog post ready to go, as well
17:11:42 <sarang> Triptych and Arcturus received small updates
17:11:52 <sarang> Triptych was submitted to an ESORICS workshop
17:12:15 <sarang> and Arcturus is still under consideration for PoPETs, though I've been working on an improved security model related to that used in Omniring
17:12:25 <sarang> good times
17:13:36 <sarang> There will be a developer meeting this Sunday at 17:00 UTC to discuss the upgrade timeline
17:13:48 <sarang> Are there any questions on these topics?
17:16:45 <sarang> OK, does anyone else wish to share any research topics of interest?
17:17:59 <sgp_> super quick meeting
17:18:09 <sarang> For sure
17:18:31 <sarang> Well, if there aren't any other topics, we can move to ACTION ITEMS, anything people wish to share that they intend to tackle this week
17:19:07 <sarang> I've been working on a bunch of ideas for improving the Omniring security model for use in Triptych/Arcturus, which has been a fun but frustrating challenge
17:19:16 <sarang> as well as on-chain output analysis
17:19:29 <sarang> These will continue this week!
17:20:01 <sarang> As well as working with the CLSAG audit team to finalize their report for public release
17:20:07 <sarang> Anyone else?
17:21:33 <sarang> A super quick meeting indeed :D
17:21:40 <sarang> All right, in that case, we can adjourn!
17:21:44 <sarang> Thanks to everyone for attending
17:21:50 <sarang> Logs will be posted to the GitHub agenda issue shortly
17:24:11 <UkoeHB_> Isthmus any news on the fixed-reward for coinbase patch? IIRC it was slated for last weekend (or is it this coming weekend?)
17:33:12 <tevador> 256-bit hashes are safe from Grover's search for the forseeable future