^ two sentences with the second starting at "disclaimer"

In other words, a text or video source claiming for profit should be cited

Well, the plan is to generate revenue and then it’s only 1 board vote away from activating ads on the videos.

Because the revenue is not enough.

> A for-profit corporation is an organization which aims to earn profit through its operations

So you can't cite sgp or nm90 then

The plan has never been to make money, merely to find ways to avoid requiring donations through selling merch etc.

It has been explicitly stated that there will never be monetization of the YT as well.

sethsimmons: Where?

<cankerwort> Surely most of these talks are on the websites of the respective conventions

selsta, an llc is not necessarily a "for-profit" corporation

<cankerwort> So the remainder of the content which can only be accessed through this YT channel is the content such as the coffee chats and breaking Monero which as far as I'm aware were initiatives mostly lead by Justin

it's just a limited liabilit corporation

monerospace could be the hitler on ice of corporations

sethsimmons: Can you link where it is explicitly stated that there will be no YT monetization?

Maybe I missed some huge discussion.

Sorry, it was another channel, thought it was in here. No monetization is my understanding per sgp_ and would 100% be my choice.

There has never been and never will be monetization on the channel

Sure, I'll explicitly say it, and it's backed by every single person with some sort of voting capacity. There will be no monetization on any youtube videos currently hosted, and that will be codified into bylaws.

oh, sgp_ beat me to it

We don't have any intent for monetization on future videos, but I don't see any need to make promises there considering the current discussion

To be 100% transparent, I marked one video as "contains paid promotion." That was the recording of the recent Greece Meetup that Cake Wallet sponsored and Mastering Monero donated a few books for. I and no one else who published that video made money

<cankerwort> Truly the scandal of our time

I didn't know Monero could have drama like this :P

You better believe it

#Top10ScandalsOf2020

<cankerwort> So is the new channel the Monero Spaceforce?

<cankerwort> Honestly my main concern from all this is the potential loss of the Coffee Chats

space cadets*

<cankerwort> I really hope they continue in some way

we will be hosting some sort of equivalent. Maybe not the same name, because that would be appropriation.

And some people may just not want to come

but justin and I dont plan on stopping hosting that

[2020-08-13 16:34:56] <jwinterm> what exactly are the "assets"? this channel, @monerocommunity twitter and mastodon handle?

[2020-08-13 16:35:14] <jwinterm> subreddit?

<cankerwort> As a lurker I really appreciate the monthly roundup of news and discussions from people across the project

[2020-08-13 16:35:19] <needmoney90> And server infrastructure hosted. Because we pay.

[2020-08-13 16:37:14] <sgp_> jwinterm: just to note it just moderates this channel

interesting how the youtube channel was not mentioned

I don't think you would be satisfied with anything other than full dissolution of the LLC.

Which is off the table

cankerwort: thanks, I appreciate it! I had a lot of fun doing them

<cankerwort> Monero Tea Time here we come

needmoney90: ?

<•needmoney90> I don't think you would be satisfied with anything other than full dissolution of the LLC.

what are the commands to remove myself from oplist ;_;

I dont want the dot

the ones I found on youtube with /cs dont work on freenode

I'm personally quite fond of tea and fika food as is the Swedish way; would endorse

> Finer details of the arrangement are in discussion, such as responsibilities and assets

who has this been discussed with?

"Justin and Doug will be starting a new workgroup"

"Effective immediately, Justin and Doug are stepping down from their leadership positions in the Monero Community Workgroup."

all of this implies taking over the YouTube channel lol

needmoney90: sgp_: is the Blockfolio monero account also taken over by the LLC?

selsta: obviously not

Well nothing is obvious anymore seeing that the YT account got sneakily taken over.

Core and Outreach are a part of it already too. I've just been the only one posting anything

Here you talk about the YouTube, Twitter and Blockfolio account. How should I know that YouTube and Twitter get "obviously" taken over and Blockfolio does not?

There has been 0 transparency in this.

Suppose sgp_ could have left the videos right where they are and transfered the YouTube account somehow? :-P Would have been nice.

What's the fate of the videos going to be now? We don't know! Tune in next to As The World Turns.

Trust the board of directors™

The videos are CC, and not owned by sgp or anyone else for that matter.

There's no question as to what happens to them, and they can be migrated one way or another.

Migrated while losing all views.

Well yeah but the video stats and stuffz... would be nice if they could stay with the old account

The channel is still around, of course, and we'll be chatting more about it tomorrow.

for sure dsc_

I understand it's not a requirement as it is his damn channel

It's a weird situation.

It just would have been nice :P

<dsc_ "I understand it's not a requirem"> Yeah thats the rub, he built it and ran it from the ground up

And I certainly don't want to see it fall by the wayside if he has to give it up now.

This is one of the many things that get weird when you aim for decentralization and avoid formalization.

Changes like this get hairy, quickly.

That's assuming core neglects to maintain it

We don't know that.

For sure, which I'm not saying they will, just that sgp has been by far the biggest contributor to it and has owned/run it for years

Just that it opens the door for neglect

have you seen the website?

jk don't ban me

But perhaps just a "warm" handoff or something similar to a clear ownership would be helpful.

Core has a youtube channel.

Happy to take an firm suggestions, but again, no one has volunteered to own/run it, and I'm not sure throwing more at core (especially in the marketing/community department) is the best move in the long run.

That, I would like to note, is unmaintaned, relatively.

They could have also hosted these videos, and did not

fair enough nm90

As I keep saying, this is the issue with the status quo of individuals controlling this stuff. Everyone seems okay with ceding all control of stuff to Core, but is that really the right move?

We attempted to head off the issue by splitting control off from one person. If you guys expect to keep the status quo, this is the outcome you have to expect. Either that or give it to core, which I think is either of equal or greater concern

<xmrhaelan> Was the @monerocommunity account on Twitter renamed to @monerospace ?

xmrhaelan: youtube too

you can't rename an @ on twitter

please note I was rather neutral to the LLC idea (read: could not care) so "you guys" does not apply to me :-P

that is your account

You actually can jwinterm

Idk if its recent but I just learned you can a few days ago

you could always do that

TIL

Yes. I once went by the twitter handle bigboii420xXx

lmao

how?

thats prime real estate

you can rename the stuff that displays left of the @

Web app, under you account

but not post@

No you can change both

Just tried a few days ago

ohyea I see now

til

Can't remember exactly but Google is your friend :)

this a-hole stole my nick like a year or two before I joined and never even uses it twitter.com/jwinterm

Same with my preferred nick 🙁

I’d honestly pay money to harvest it

he's got same name as AI in neuromancer

> All assets currently owned by the MCW are either FOSS or creative commons

Are social media accounts FOSS / CC?

They clearly were MCW assets as seen in the first gist shared by sgp

so I wonder if this was a wording mistake?

The content is CC, so I assume that’s what was meant? Not sure precisely.

jwinterm: IF they don't use it and you buy a website w/ that URL, you can probably take it over

By telling Twitter, hey I own this website that uses this 'name'

selsta, since there was/is no legal entity known as the MCW then ownership would lie with the person that registered/controlled the account, no?

good to know xmrscott[m]

twitter handle squatting

seriously though, how do you deop someone for realsies?

so they don't get autoopd?

/msg chanserv -O #channel user

I think

needmoney90: i think the community will was to try and find another solution to the problems as stated, and preferably through open discussion and transparent communication. This did not seem to be desired, and so the status quo was changed to the alternate path of you and sgp_ relinquishing control of MCW to Core.

As far as i remember, nobody in this community asked for that to happen. All they asked was for decisions that impacted the whole community not to be taken without the communities input

<midipoet "As far as i remember, nobody in "> During the initial discussion especially multiple people repeatedly asked for sgp/nm90 to resign/leave/start something new.

Thus the decision to just start something new to let MCW remain as it is under rehrar instead, and allow for a more focused/formalized WG to be started to help support MCW and other WGs across the board.

sethsimmons: Can you quote those messages asking to "resign" or "leave"?

Feel free to dig back through logs, or I can later. Was mostly geonic, and I believe someone else mentioned the same a few times

I know geonic was repeatedly asking/encouraging them both to leave

Can’t remember who the other was off the top of my head.

sethsimmons: i think you will find that one or two persons opinion (without the provision of evidence of this, as yet) is not "community will".

personally, i cannot remember anybody asking either of them to 'resign' or 'leave'

I mean tbf there is no need for community will if they decide the best course of action is to step down and start something new

The community will was pretty clearly opposed to anything resembling formalization, and especially against any legal entity.

sethsimmons: of course not, but my response was against needmoney saying it was community will for them to leave and form something else

which is wasn't

*which it wasn't

+1 to midipoet's points. Pretty much my take as well.

There’s no way I can read the things that were said other than there was no way forward (other than keeping status quo) without them stepping down to start a new group.

If they had started a new group + LLC and remained moderators/leaders here that would have been seen as a conflict of interest and was also opposed IIRC

Maybe “community will” isn’t the best term for why this change happened/needed to happen, though.

More that it was the only clear path forward for the things they wanted to do to further support Monero/the community.

well this is the quote which is was responding to, and was from needmoney90: "We've done what we can to divorce our own accounts from this workgroup, because that was the will of the people here."

if he didn't mean what i have interpreted, then fair enough

The majority were not asking for them to leave (some vocal minority was), but the majority were vehemently opposed to what they saw as the best path forward.

<midipoet "well this is the quote which is "> Yeah I’ll let him respond specifically to that.

tldr what happened?

Thus if the LLC will run/own something it has to be a new workgroup/effort.

<kayront "tldr what happened?"> Which part lol

exactly

i'm trying to understand based on the fragments, but i still have no idea

lol

Hopefully there will be an announcement today about the new workgroup, which should clarify things further.

kayront: sgp / nm90 announced a new workgroup and said they will step down from MCW and hand it over to core

alright

and now they silently transferred the MCW youtube account to the new LLC

Basically sgp/nm90 saw the need for more focus/formalization for MCW + a supporting LLC, it was pretty strongly opposed, then what selsta said happened.

which has all the event youtube videos, views, etc.

yeah, that's not cool

lol

well, when you put it like that!!

That part is being discussed more at length today, and I also have mixed feelings about it 🙂

i mean leaving and creating another group sure

but the youtube account thing, i find doesn't sit well on first analysis

curious to hear what they have to say about it tho in terms of motivations

kayront: gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/db745ee6b967e91b5318f2db04f4ee2f

you should read this statement and say if this reads like "we will take over the youtube account"

not to go offtopic, but are there any cake wallet devs here that any of you know of? i'd like to get in touch soon about smt i'm writing

they are on telegram

Well it was sgps creation, effort, and almost solely driven by him, so I assume more because he wants to see it continue to grow/expand.

And the videos are CC so can be reproduced elsewhere

No one claimed they aren’t CC. The views and metadata are the things we talk about.

And it’s also partly based on the idea that “hand everything over to core” isn’t really decentralized or helpful long term.

i don't read anything of the sort selsta (re gist)

to be honest, though i have no reason not to trust sgp_ with the Youtube channel. that it would be part of an LLC, i think is the problem. i had actually never thought of ads before. i also cringe at the thought if those 5min sponsorship blurbs on podcasts. h

only on telegram?

<midipoet "to be honest, though i have no r"> It’s already been publicly stated there will never be monetization.

WhIch can change at any time.

The community would know and could do something about it.

It could also change anytime now as it’s currently owned by sgp exclusively

sethsimmons: yeah. perhaps. i have seen Monero go hell for leather on sponsorships before, so am not convinced

This way it at least has board oversight

<midipoet "sethsimmons: yeah. perhaps. i ha"> Idk what that phrase means lol, but every member of the board is 100% against monetization

sethsimmons: are we equating monetisation with sponsorship revenue here?

because they are slightly different

sethsimmons: Why was the youtube account not mentioned once anywhere?

The statement even says the opposite.

I understand that it is sgp’s account and that he doesn’t want to transfer it. But this is something that could have been talked about.

<midipoet "sethsimmons: are we equating mon"> I hadn’t thought about that, but I would imagine the same would be true

<selsta "I understand that it is sgp’s ac"> Agreed.

i do sort of feel like with all this drama that sgp_ and needmoney90 get a hard time. i don't think that should be the case, at least not to them personally. i do think that its a clash of ideology/incentives though, especially those that get clouded with the notion/perception of LLCs - and even more so when assets are being distributed.

Doing it sneakily instantly gives me a bad feeling about all this.

<midipoet "i do sort of feel like with all "> Yeah, this is exactly why I think the *concept* of starting a new WG instead of continuing here is likely the best step forward. But the actual implementation of that split/change is tricky and nuanced.

<selsta "Doing it sneakily instantly give"> Agreed, it wasn't clearly stated up front, and should have been discussed/shared more widely before something like this was done IMO. This is being talked about more in depth today by the new WG.

But I'd also love to say for the record (like what midipoet said above) that this isn't a reason to give either of them a hard time personally, they've dedicated so much time and effort to growing Monero as a community, and clearly have the best interests of Monero at heart here.

Hopefully we can continue to work together to find good solutions to the problems this has brought to the forefront (problems that have existed for a long time) across all WGs.

I am grateful for the work both of them have put into this community - and urge giving them a good deal of leeway before interpreting their motivations as nefarious.

Agreed 🙂

i don't think nefarious, but motivations all the same.

They certainly don't get a pass to do something nefarious (as none of us should), but it should also be apparent that they've donated countless hours of blood, sweat, and tears for this project and so have a lot of "skin in the game" so to speak.

well which would also be a reason for nafarious actions

Sorry, how should I react if someone claims to step down and start a new workgroup, while not mentioning in a single line that assets will be transferred?

"Great" ?

*nefarious

Thats why I'm all about constructive feedback from anyone here who has strong ideas of how to continue to grow/expand this WG and others as the community grows

<selsta "Sorry, how should I react if som"> Come on, obviously no one is telling you you can't be honest about how you view things. There's no way you can interpret what I said to mean you should just shutup and say yes to everything.

But you're also doing a bit less to give constructive feedback and just throwing the YT issue at everyone who walks into this room.

Because no one knowns about the YT transfer, it wasn’t mentioned at all?

I'm all for helpful discussions that further aid in making good decisions around the community/this WG

<selsta "Because no one knowns about the "> There was supposed to be an announcement yesterday that got delayed AFAICT

But that issue is also not decided, as I've mentioned many times.

And, as I've stated, I'm not a fan of the way the YT thing was handled, and agree on many of your underlying points.

any idea of what other assets will get transferred to the new LLC/WG?

So far just the small @monerocommunityworkgroup Twitter handle that sgp also started/own/ran.

Then lots of new assets/services are being spun up/started soon.

Yeah no other things currently used for MCW are being moved/migrated/etc. The YT is the only controversial one, it seems.

<selsta "WhIch can change at any time."> Except Core can monetize video at any time too. People act as if somehow an LLC is the only thing that can change. /smh

Yeah, unless someone can find a way to apply Nakamoto consensus to YouTube account changes I think all of this is going to rely on some trust :P

I'm reading these comments as trust in Core, and distrust in me who has run the channel for its entire history so far

That is not my position

That's some people's apparently with regards to things like monetization

Exactly

Lest we forget, a member of Core some years ago created the Monero Enterprise Alliance scandal because they thought it wouldn't have any major blowback to prove that Core can't be trusted, only the code

What's to stop a Core member revoking everyone else's website commit access and putting up a header on the website that getmonero.org is sponsored by Hershey's for the month of October?

This is a legitimate concern. There is no publicly available governance policy Core has put out on Core owned assets

Similarly, Core can do a sponsored, pinned post on r/monerocommunity now that they own it

At least two of the holy, can do no wrong, Samurai 7-esque cryptids that are Core have shown to be big trolls.

kayront: I believe cake is vikrants here and they are also on reddit

as well as on TG

Also FWIW South Africa has a extradition treaty with the US. As does Canada and countries where nondisclosed Core members live.

....plus not forget that YT is run by a US company lol

here are screenshots of all the videos on the channel: imgur.com/a/vQZTPic

From late 2017 to MoneroKon, the channel was pretty much only for the Coffee Chats and Breaking Monero

At MoneroKon I sat behind the AV table all day to make sure the stream worked fine, then I brought a hard drive with the individual talks back home and put all those together

actually not all day, all 2 or 3 days or whatever

*drama intensifies*

i'll post on reddit in a bit also, if in the meantime someone is in TG with the Cake devs, I'd appreciate if you could pass it along

vikrants ^

Hi

kayront: can not open

you need tor browser / torified browser vikrants

.onion

Ah

Ok

if we don't use .onions, who will? :D

lol that wololo pic

:D

kayront: renXMR doesn't exist, but afaik sXMR does

fluffypony: i plan to make a post about monero/ethereum soon™, should include that there too

but correct me if I'm wrong, there is no good way to trustlessly convert from XMR to sXMR right now, is there?

Its a purely synthetic asset, so there is no way at all to convert

i'm not as familiar with synthethix, the cool thing about renXMR if it existed is that we could access a tokenized representation of real XMR in the monero chain, and pull them b ack at any time (while being mindful that bugs exist and smart contract risk of course)

Its not even trusted, its just a synthetic asset reflected by sXMR with the peg maintained (in practice) by SNX stakers.

right, that's what I thought

not to say it isn't useful in other contexts (sXMR, that is), but I do think renXMR would have very unique and very desirable properties

i don't want to go too deeply into that discussion rn because as I said I do plan to write down my thoughts about the whole thing in a more organized manner soon

but it sure is an interesting discussion if you ask me

The biggest pitfall to me is you lose what makes Monero so powerful -- its native network and it's native (and easy) real privacy

When you wrap/convert it.

agreed

Anyone done much thinking about the privacy of BTC taproot-powered payment pools ( + lightning network)

Can you explain what you mean?

What is sxmr? I'm only getting links to shit like "Penile Girth Enlargement Strategies" when I search it? xD

Taproot/Schnorr hiding on/off-ramps for Lightning?

<fluffypony "synthetix.exchange/#/tra"> This oceanus

oceanus[m]: synthetic XMR

Tone and Jimmy talked about it on last nights stream - basically it seems like you can have btc divided amongst a group of people inside a payment pool, and cannot on-chain see who owns what.

I've never heard of a "payment pool" unless they mean a Multisig?

A 1-of-N multisig possible?

Oh its N-of-N musig with TR used to hide that its a musig

weird

Yeah I don't see anything overtly novel

And nothing that inherently aids privacy, as all 3 have to sign to do anything other than move an original amount you own out back to you

It in some small ways reduces the ownership heuristic

But amounts still make practically retaining that privacy difficult

And just like all complex musig transactions it's incredibly difficult to make and bake in all the terms you need to the "contract" to do what is needed.

Its great that Taproot helps to make multisig indistinguishable from normal transactions (if all transactions use Taproot, which they wont because optional/soft-fork)

But in reality I don't see much practical gain outside of for the techno-elite (at best)

^ yup

If you guys want to complain at someone, you should try Core. They have a YouTube account and didn't even bother to copy clone the creative commons videos sgp_ went to the trouble of putting up. And now, because they failed to do this, you expect him to give his own account over, because you feel entitled to the views.

Honestly, some of you here aren't interested in anything but drama. I have no desire to really argue with unreasonable people.

Grow up

I get the perspective however of people contributing in the past with the expectation that it would be under the MCW name

what's the exchange rate of YouTube Views to XMR?

Even so.... I don't think people really know what they are asking for by having this given up to Core

Its the perfect decentralized community, just give it alll to Fluffy

How ideal

oh lord not again

:-P

It is what the community demands fluffypony :p

Is that not the current proposal

What about if branding remains MCW but the new workgroup/LLC steward the channel (as sgp_ has been doing up until this point)?

Just give it all to Fluffy

"the pony who until recently was fluffy"

Seth: that would be appropriating the name!

Thats why I'm asking here :)

We can't dare have a company and also keep the name

People will get pissy

the pony that would do anything for YouTube View Token (YTVT)

To see if thats an interesting compromise.

sethsimmons: the reason I don't want to do that is because I would STILL have to give up all more work, since future content I make won't be under the MCW name

Lets see :)

s/more/my

<sgp_ "sethsimmons: the reason I don't "> Could clarify future content you make/drive/produce as created by/for the new workgroup, instead of MCW

If you so choose

But under the same channel

Yeah but that's what people on the other side are complaining about now

But that gets weird if no one in MCW steps up to drive the overall ownership/effort

<sgp_ "Yeah but that's what people on t"> Well, but the channel remains the same branding in this instance, just videos change branding

*MCW branding overall, individual videos/series are branded per their workgroup

**or creators wishes

I'm more interested in my efforts going towards supporting another workgroup

I'm not interested in contributing to a MCW channel

Then perhaps a new channel is in order

Or at the very least clearer messaging about the move of the channel to the new workgroup.

OK guys/girls, I'm going to be taking over the MCW now. Every weekend we'll have rap battles. Each workgroup picks their best rapper.

Rehrar is disqualified as he has been known to "spit that lit shit" end-quote

dsc_: I won some rap battles in high school no joke :p

oooh nice. Any video of that?

Yes but that's locked down

well shit I pick sgp_ then

:P

Basically I was the only one in high school willing to swear in front of everyone lol

Student of the month dropping F bombs lol

8:44:44 AM <needmoney90> Its the perfect decentralized community, just give it alll to Fluffy

LOL

i'll take the name then?

but needmoney

what if the drama is also a fabrication

what if you are double agents

maybe a first question we skipped over is if Core even wants to maintain this channel

i dont think y'all want to start a rap battle

what do you think i've been training for

i want to maintain this channel

it's now mine

the project is the community's anyway

this channel is not being maintaind? why?

it is

i am maintaining it

i dont mind contributing as well

ok good

hired

hello i'm applying to be benevolent dictator of #monero-community

^-- metoo

and speaking of rap, i can arrange for popular rappers to promote the coin if interest exist

ping loogi floofypony can haz +o

what is required to maintain this channel?

fungible[m]: ytcracker?

no

real rappers

omg

what an insult

not spam rap

im offended

i'm already dictator noobs

sgp_: to be fair, i specifically said i would trust you running it.

he was funny though

that's how dictatorship works

you cant just claim it afterwards or we have to rap battle

fungible[m]: what are real rappers???

and i will easily win those

fungible[m]: sir do you represent 50 cent?

million+ listeners?

lolok

midipoet: would you all feel better if Core agreed to hand the channel off to us?

no but we have access

lol

because honestly I feel that's in their best interest

wtf happened to monero

guys

endogenic: nothing happened

this is an irc channel for community discussion

development moved to wownero, m*nero is just a ghost town now

idk but sgp save this chanel please

yea wtf

remember when the community maintained things

and we just self organized

and there wasnt one person deciding

or some special chosen group

yes we used to be praised for our members

the channel is mine anyway

it was always one person deciding things, we just took feedback seriously

it's already been decided

well, often 2-3 people

that is the value of the community

sgp_: no monero community elected this channel to be owned by one or two people

consistent threat modeling

what changed?

this channel has always been quite heavy on the drama

also not much development going on here

its just people talking

dsc_: how else will the illuminati execute the human instrumentality plan?

about marketing stuff

no offense

they need to makeup drama first

if i recall it is more strategy and organization

but development continues

and there must he a sacrifice

endogenic: want to start the monero drama workgroup with me? We'll travel the world and do theater shows

too late

sgp_: in this whole thing the community has not had a say in the outcomes.

we'll do reenactments of famous Monero milestones

community needs to stay focused what is priority on the list

midipoet: shit your mouth that is not appropriate

and what resources are required

midipoet: what would new users think?!?

that we have a community free of agendas?

come on

lol

.bbl

sgp_: you made a plan, it got push back. You decided on a new strategy, made an announcement and then went with it. That is fine, but you can't then say, oh well are you happy now - as we didn't get to decide anything!

another successful NSA psyop

lmao it was my plan all along, anonimal was right

not you lol

thats it im calling 50 cent

50 cent sucks call ytcracker

s/call/PRIVMSG/

I still would like to call on Core to symbolically offer the channel

will be taken less seriously involving yt

can someone eli5 what is going on with this channel

kindly

fungible[m]: who cares

The Monero codebase is there, to be picked up and worked on by anyone

that's most important

sgp_: you may think so

but you are just a piece on a board

endogenic: stop playing 4d chess

:(

:D

the entire prospect to me is absurd, since Core has never maintained or controlled this channel

all chess is 4s

lol

tru

but sgp you are core

at least in my heart

<3

yes i trust sgp

what

why

endogenic: don't verify, trust

asymptotically is essential to business relationships

gross

in hindsight I should have asked for Core's blessing before renaming the channel

huh?

because it's in the monero namespace?

no because it previously used the MCW name

which is theirs now

lol

I just read the backlog. Jeez that's depressing. I saw a lot of wrong claims and wrong assumptions. I really hope this mess helped people to understand transparency is extremely necessary when it's about Monero communities.

come on guest

yes transparency

am i guest again?

technically core owns all monero communities

just teasing but

Guest72945: please be transparent and change your nick

:-P

dsc_: matrix just doesn't agree with erciccione's nick

always changes it to guest for him lol

do you guys remember back in like 2016 when people were upset about not being able to change bitcoin?

yeah it seems to happen at least 6 times a day

what made monero different was the intention and precedent to continuously change when faced with something better, new, more correct

hard forks

etc

bitcoin can't ever hardfork again, because those abandoned old bitcoin knots 0.8.0.0 nodes running in someone's basement will break

And i agree, handing over the community to core it's something that wasn't discussed or requested. Let's use that as a reminder that workgroups shouldn't be "owned" by who funded them, but to their own communities

damn matrix

but who even funded them

i funded shit

with my life even

but you're right, who can lay claim?

sorry, i meant "founded"

and who can pursue legal action?

well, technically, the community was not founded by anyone but me either

i remember #monero where we used to chat all the time

many new rooms were made back then

usually we were kicking someone out of #monero for talking nonsense

#monero-community *is* #monero basically

Nick should be fine now

i think a sense of comfort and transparency is something all members value and expected when such changes occur

the community can decide what they want

and that is scary to lots of parties

so we probably place bounds on what we think is possible to avoid the scary

the world right now - it's like it's owned by people other than the living

my main concern was that would become the case for monero too

other than communities

it's natural, isn;t it?

i think it's also sad that i risk my safety by saying this

and the community should think about what that means for its own future

the channel provided a sense of transparency so members can share input without a commitment,- this also serves in threat modeling

things like social discourse cooling are real

yes

fungible is the patron saint of monero

.,bbl

No idea what you're saying endogenic lol

endogenic hitting us with the bbl

then ask

usually when people want to know with humility

they're like

Idk what to ask about

ok

You mentioned like 100 things

you can take one sentence

and be like wtf does this mean

and eventually we'll get closer

that don't seem related to anything lol

that's natural at first

eventually the picture becomes visible

?

Or just... be clear?

you have to familiarize yourself with some of the problems

i am being clear

y'all should decide for yourselves what your future will be

stop putting it in the hands of people who do it for you

that way lies bad times

i'm kinda making fun of what the community has become, somewhat

or what segmented people has made of the "community"

segmenting*

there was a time when criticism was welcomed and considered carefully as a survival risk

now we are comfortable with our survival

but ask yourselves why.

it's because things are not so much operated by the community anymore

if that's not the case, turn this channel over to me

<cankerwort> You speak in riddles to jump to conclusions

no

i speak in riddles to protect myself

not that htey are riddles

just puzzle pieces

anyway, you dont care about me

and i know it

why should i risk my life for you

.bbl !

lol

I think it's true that #monero-community has become #monero.

dsc_: the reason this channel has so much drama is because it's the most accessible workgroup.

-dev and -gui are not accessible to the common person. I mean, they can freely join sure, but the average person will feel lost and quickly leave.

All it takes to be active in -community is to have an opinion. So we have way more people. More people = more variance in opinion = more drama.

It's not necessarily because the other workgroups are better at "shutting shit down".

ErCiccione[m]: it's not necessarily true that workgroups don't belong to the one who founded them. It depends on the expectation set in the beginning. If a person starts a workgroup and makes it very clear that they're BDFL of it, then that is what will be. It belongs to the founder. People may not contribute as a result, but that's what it is.

Though I think, at least in this community, the default (especially if intentions are not explicitly communicated) is that it will belong to the people.

And the founder can't come in retroactively and say "oh it was my intention for it to be mine all along"

i vote for rehrar to be monero dictator

yeah, it's true that some workgroups are structured *very* differently, eg. the Vulnerability Response Workgroup

rehrar: I see your point, but cannot really be called community in that case IMO and as you said, must be clear from the beginning. I agree this workgroup belong to the people, but the recent events showed that that wasn't the case before

It's always belonged to the people, but there were certain people driving the vast majority of work, who wanted to see some changes.

Sure, some workgroups cannot be orizzontal by their own nature, as pony said, but i would have never thought it was the case for the MCW. man, i was proved wrong :P

That obviously hasn't been the smoothest transition, but there's no truth to saying that anyone "controlled" MCW, just that they were the leaders in actually doing work and driving efforts.

<shillo> i vote for rehrar to be monero dictator <> +1

sethsimmons: I really don't want to start the discussion again. But i really don't see how belonging to the people can mean that a small group of people decide the future of the workgroup in private and then decide its future. It cannot "belong to the people" if "the people" have no part in the play

The people spoke out against the desired changes by the leaders, and so the leaders left to start something else

So the people retained control

And just like with all rough consensus things got messy

And some things were done poorly, some hurtful things were said, etc.

When there is no hierarchy or order these things do happen, which is shitty, but we have to find the best way to work around them and move past them.

Well. If you want to pass a community riot and an almost split as people speaking out against the proposals of the leaders, so be it. But that wasn't the case

I really don't agree with the way you are picturing what happened

what are we fighting about now

When there is no hierarchy or order these things do happen, <- What? There was a clear hierarchy.

<ErCiccione[m] "Well. If you want to pass a comm"> Yeah Idk how else to interpret it so I'll just leave good enough alone.

<ErCiccione[m] "When there is no hierarchy or or"> If there was a clear hierarchy things would have just happened as they wanted and the community would have fallen in line

The vocal portions of this community that spoke out strongly made it clear there was no hierarchy, and brought into the light all the issues that come along with no clear hierarchy/ownership

<cankerwort> A workgroup named "community" is always going to be messy because it has no defined goal and everyone is by default a member of the community

sethsimmons: also, bear in mind that a lot of the responsibilities that were taken on by said individuals were taken on by themselves, not asked of them by the community. for instance, personally I couldn't care for a blockfolio, a Twitter, telegram channels, or r/monerocommunity.

<cankerwort> Whereas building and maintaining platforms/spaces seems much more directional

<midipoet "sethsimmons: also, bear in mind "> Of course, but those are important vectors for building/expanding community

So I'm not sure I could imagine us just ignoring them

otoh it's good that we're going through this now, and can figure out a good path forward, than when Monero much larger

sethsimmons: Now i really think you are just twisting what happened or you have a distorted idea of the events. I won't be part of it.

sethsimmons: I am not even certain why this channel exists, instead of just having #monero

This "build it and they will come" mentality makes no sense to me.

<fluffypony "otoh it's good that we're going "> Absolutely!

luigi1111w: dunno, but i got my popcorn on hand

<midipoet "sethsimmons: I am not even certa"> Because we want a concerted effort around building the community?

shillo put me in coach, I can take him

It's specifically for efforts around building/expanding community

#monero is just general Monero chat

sethsimmons: sure, but why not in the main #monero channel? Like what is that channel for so?

It makes little sense

Thats for general Monero chat?

This is for focused efforts?

Lol

Im not sure the disconnect

#monero is a catch-all

fluffypony> otoh it's good that we're going through this now, and can figure out a good path forward, than when Monero much larger <= I knew you were just a dirty Monero pumper

This is for specific efforts like Coffee Chat, MCW, etc.

luigi1111w: I resent that, I bathe at least once a month

I didn't mean to announce this so soon, but I'm going to be transferring the YT channel to the Monero Core team. I hate to do this, but I understand the arguments in favor of doing this. I will no longer administer this channel and I don't expect to contribute new efforts towards it

It's a huge loss to the channel and community to lose your efforts around this.

sgp_: nobody asked that NOT to happen. People asked why it happens without discussing it first!!

lol fluffypony

inb4 "and if you don't like it, you can buy Dash"

sgp_: I always thought it was your personal channel anyway, but maybe that was the error in the first place (on everyones parts, not yours)

I think after all this I need to take a step back from Monero as a whole. Doesn't mean I'll be gone forever or that I won't contribute at all, but I just don't have it in me to champion completely starting fresh at the moment

sgp_: honestly I think that going overboard. It actually hasn't been that much drama! It could have been solved in one meeting/chat

I just have really grown to dislike the way my efforts are being used and I often do not agree with the rest of the community here

It's the fact there wasn't a meeting is the problem!!

(that's how I see it anyway)

gg community

sgp_: can we get you to sign a non-release clause in case of ZCash advances?

lololol

as far as I understand, Monero Space will still be a thing, and when I feel less down I'll probably start contributing there

xmrscott: please don't weaponize people's choices against the community. That's really not a nice move.

Sigh... Sad couple of weeks for the community.

Hopefully we can learn from this and grow stronger.

Personally. Sadden me to see an hear sgp's so down, knowing all he has done for the community, but let's be clear. This matter was handled very poorly by the leaders of this workgroup. If that would have been handled different, probably we wouldn't have been in this situation. So, let's nopt weaponize the situation against the workgroup, that's just an asshole move. Hate me as much as you want for saying this,

but that's what i think.

<ErCiccione[m] "xmrscott: please don't weaponize"> I've weaponized nothing. Simply commenting it's the end of a chapter in -community, and if nothing else it was fun for me.

If that's what the passive aggressive "gg community" means for you, sure. Ok.

why all the "I'm leaving, it was great, goodbye all"

?

Literally all that happened was we didn't start an LLC!

midipoet: no it's not that simple, as has been spoken out a lot.

Because y'all have trust issues with Justin if I were to put it plainly

The current big pushers of things were tired of the status quo. Too much strain on accounting, and being held back in certain areas.

They proposed a way forward, it wasn't well received (which is fine). Then they made a different way forward. It was still received less than positively (which is also fine).

So going the status quo would be a lose for them, and going this way has some people mad at them for different things. Another lose.

I'm not surprised some people want to take a step back.

It's not just 'we didn't start an LLC'. The LLC represented ways for people to break away from the exhausting status quo.

Because y'all have trust issues with Justin if I were to put it plainly <- How we went from "decisions were made without involving the community" to "you don't trust justin" it's beyond me O_O

Thats a great summary, thanks rehrar

<ErCiccione[m] "Because y'all have trust issues "> People clearly stated they would rather Core control the YT than Justin or his LLC

xmrscott[m]: it wasn't distrust in the people, it was distrust in the proposed method and I am pretty sure you know this. For instance if the status quo had continued everything would have been fine as regards trust.

A lot of the arguments centered around "But what if Justin monetizes the video. Core can do no wrong". Let's not sweep that under the rug

Even though Justin has done almost everything for that channel.

That was certainly more like distrusting justin/trusting core more, in spite of what he has done.

xmrscott[m]: yes, I see this also.

<midipoet "xmrscott: it wasn't distrust in "> Yeah, thats probably relatively true

People clearly stated they would rather Core control the YT than Justin or his LLC <- i would like to have a quote from these "people". I don't remember anybody asking core to control the channel.

Some people seemed to distrust Justin but not all

but another set of arguments revolved around the fact that many contributors didn't contribute their content for it to be primarily stewarded by an LLC.

both would lead to the same outcome

rehrar: yes. And all that happened was that the community (the supposed beneficiaries of the LLC) rejected that proposal.

sethsimmons: Who are these people?

and honestly, I think people should have been arguing the one I said rather than "Justin could monetize"

<ErCiccione[m] "People clearly stated they would"> You have the same backlog I do, I've spent enough time explaining all this already lol

I would like quotes, not generic "people asked that"

sethsimmons: No, you are making a claim without baking it up with any prove. I don't recall anybody asking what you say "people" were asking. Either back up your claim or withdraw it

*proof

ErCiccione[m]: this is slightly disingenuous though. Saying that nobody asked for core to take control of the channel. If the LLC doesn't control it because people don't want them to, it will de facto mean it goes to core.

Youtube is not decentralized. SOMEBODY has to hold the account.

So if people say they don't want the LLC to hold the YouTube. It de facto means it goes to core, ESPECIALLY if no other person is suggested.

<selsta "sethsimmons: Can you link where "> Here yo go

I can provide more if you'd like from other people. But let's not play intellectually dumb here; I know y'all have read the reddit thread and most of the IRC backlog

<rehrar "ErCiccione: this is slightly dis"> This ^

so yes, saying they don't want the LLC to control the youtube channel = saying they trust core more than the new LLC. Which is fine if that's your position, but the position should be owned up to.

rehrar: Why so? The first draft of the announcement justin and nm90 made said the channel was being given to you, as you opened it. The final version which was published said "core" instead. IMO, the first oiption would have made more sense. Who created the channel is moderating it

It was only hinted at above that people wanted it to be owned by Core

But the alternative is that it is owned by core

So any suggestion that Justin/LLC not own it is that Core own it, and no one has mentioned another alternative.

<ErCiccione[m] "rehrar: Why so? The first draft "> Rehrar is acting for core?

rehrar = core here

So if rehrar takes over channel, core takes over channel

etc etc

ErCiccione[m]: I've come to realize that because of my position, it's impossible for me to act and own something as an individual in this community.

Hence my reddit post a few days ago.

If I do literally anything as an individual, it will be misconstrued as core involvement and approval. Kinda sucks, but that's the way it is.

<rehrar "so yes, saying they don't want t"> This ErCiccione ^

rehrar: And i understand that, but still. Do you see my point? It's different to say: "the channel will be moderated by rehrar" and "the channel will be moderated by rehrar in behalf of core".

They mean the same thing?

rehrar is acting on behalf of core

I don't understand the distinction here

rehrar specifically asked that this workgroup be run by Core, not him. It's why I needed to change the wording of what would have originally been a joint release about us stepping down

hence the change in the announcement to make it more clear for everyone. We took my name off and put core for more transparency. Because some people would read it and when they found out core was controlling they would complain

"the announcement said rehrar!!!"

"9:50:42 AM <rehrar> I think it's true that #monero-community has become #monero."

not quite what i want to say

endogenic: well it's true regardless

that you thinkso

We're on another topic now endogenic , can we focus on this for now and talk about the other later?

ye

you can do or haveanything you want...is entire point seth :)

I think my point is being missed here. I do understand the difference. I just say that in my opinion would have made more sense to give rehrar the channel instead of core, but i totally understand why he preferred to hand it over to core. I just don't think that that fit with "the community asked to hand it to core", because that's simply not true.

the channel is whatever

what even is core anyway

And reguardless, personally, i do trust core more than an LLC. Doesn't matter who run it.

it was a specific set of ppl once

with specific problems mandating its role

<ErCiccione[m] "I think my point is being missed"> rehrar = core, so handing off to rehrar would be core

i am too early

Thats what we're all trying to say

they are interchangeable, so if Justin/LLC does not own it, rehrar/core own it

sethsimmons: "I just say that in my opinion would have made more sense to give rehrar the channel instead of core, but i totally understand why he preferred to hand it over to core. I just don't think that that fit with "the community asked to hand it to core", because that's simply not true."

The community did ask for that

you are missing the fact that rehrar also created the channel before rappresenting core

By asking for it not to be under Justin/LLC

alright, whatever

I don't understand

If the vocal people here say "Justin/LLC shouldn't own the channel" and Justin wants to retain ownership/stewardship of the channel, what choice does he have?

Hand it to core or do a hostile takeover

Or maybe some in-between, which was obviously not chosen

He handed it to core, the only other clear alternative

Because he does not want to continue running it for MCW instead of focusing on what he sees as important

He's made that clear.

what blows my mind

I think there could have been a middle ground

But I digress

is that Justin has not only decided to start his own thing (which solves the initial problem), and decided to give up the Youtube (which solves this discussion)

and then said he was going to take a step back

and he's STILL RECEIVING FLAK right now

Ding ding

yup 🙂

he made the decisions that have the outcomes people want

leave it alone guys

even if you're argument is that "it's not about the outcomes themselves, but they way they were come to privately without discussion"

well, he's not a leader of this workgroup anymore

I hope it's at least clear that i am not criticising justin for these choices. Which i told him in private and in public that i respect and agree with. Especially handing over the youtube channel, which i consider a mature choice that deserves respect

so that also doesn't really need to be discussed further, does it?

can we still martyr him pls

So i really hope nobody thought i was bashing justing with any of my points

people will twist your words and think all kinds of things

Stop endogenic.

for me the discussion was finished when the board of the LLC decided to create an own workgroup

no?

<ErCiccione[m] "So i really hope nobody thought "> It certainly came across as that, but I do think it wasn't your intent.

More just worried that this will have a long-term toll on him and the community will suffer because of it.

good

I agree ^

that is a beautiful thought

I think few people know just how much work Justin has put in

He caved to all the demands/voices here, which I guess is what was wanted

<rehrar "I think few people know just how"> this ^

endogenic: wtf dude?

wtf about what

stop stirring trouble

I really don't see how that's possible. But if that's the case, i apologize with justin. If i jumped in this conversation is because i had the feeling "history was being rewritten" and justin's step back was being weaponized against this workgroup

Take the rambling elsewhere please endogenic :)

We're in the middle of an important discussion.

what rambling

i agreed withyou

LOL

<ErCiccione[m] "I really don't see how that's po"> I am not trying to rewrite history, so hopefully thats not how it came across.

Just sharing my genuine understanding of the situation, for better or worse.

If I'm way off from reality I apologize.

oh

Personally i even asked sgp_ in private to rethink his step back from the community. he thinks that's the best choice for him, so that's where the discussion ends

ok

alright, so I think we done with this then.

*from the community = from the workgroup

<ErCiccione[m] "Personally i even asked sgp_ in "> Good to hear it, but its likely too late for that. Hopefully a break will do him well.

Let's take a breather from this conversation as a whole.

Please lol...

so this chatroom is for the workgroup?

sure

or for community discussions?

cause they conflict

eventually

that's true

yayyy

finally

one down

but I guess we need to define what the new workgroup is

this one

not the new started one

There is no new workgroup atm

Oh yeah

MCW

yes

A lot to figure out now.

we need to define what the new MCW is before we can say if these things actually conflict

no...

that is the conflict

because if the new goal is community discussions, then it doesn't conflict :D

well

what if soneone changes the goal

bam

conflict

wtf even is a workgroup

nope. that part is defined. There's a blog post somewher.e

nope

yep

oh ik

(oof! Diego with the comebacks)

ok

i'm convinced

:)

lol!

also when is the rap battle

time to rappresent

sooo many things rhyme w monero

wownero

what rhymes w workgroup?

burnt soup

jeez you're good at this

dsc_: did warn you

I'm re-reading my messages here and i really cannot understand how my comments came over as bashing sgp_. I feel like when jay leno said in tv "please don't blame conan for what's happening" (when leno stole conoan's place at the late show) :P. Anyway, i hope it's clear now

are you all doing the coffee chat Saturday? or should I remove that from the calendar?

I don't feel that we were attacking Justin or even giving flak, either. The problem was initially over a YT channel whose name got changed by the owner, and people were surprised.

sgp_: O__O

no

sgp_: well there is something to talk about on the coffee chat!

I'm not prepared. I'd have to reschedule.

oh it's only Wednesday.

monero talk did ask for an episode there...I declined.

I thought it was like Friday or something. Goodness, time doesn't mean anything anymore in the pandemic.

okay removed

i warned ya

sure, that's fine.

I don't feel that we were attacking Justin or even giving flak, either. The problem was initially over a YT channel whose name got changed by the owner, and people were surprised. -> i never referred to that to my comments tho, so i'm even more surprised my words were perceived as some perceived them. Whatever.

waiting for sgp to go full gmaxwell-on-reddit

sgp_ could you confirm you read my PM? Just to make sure it's not matrix freaking out

<xmrhaelan> Sgp_ is carrying a heavy load right now. He has given countless time and energy into Monero and into cultivating a community that supports it. Just because he went about things differently than others might doesn’t mean he is a bad person. It is easy to cast opinions about someone who is having to make decisions. It is much harder to be the person making those decisions. Let’s all keep that in mind please.

<xmrhaelan> Justin when you are feeling like getting involved in Monero again you will be welcomed with open arms. Hopefully you can find some valuable leadership lessons in all this and use it develop your own leadership style as life goes on. We are all always learning.

+1. I agree with all of that ^

endogenic, what you don't realize is that all mods at /r/cryptocurrency are secretly bitcoin maximalists that have had blockstream satellite control chips implanted in their cerbral cortex and are actively working towards the destruction of all inferior so-called cryptocurrencies

ERROR

you may have won this battle, but the war is only beginning

DOES NOT COMPUTE

REPLACE CHIP ASAP

anyway story is always the inverse

in that case truly is - I am probably most "maximalist" mod at /r/cc

and here I am and also have launched meme shitcoin

i think it would be cool if the community considered how to defend the people who defend the project

we put a lot of time and effort into growth but should take it slow and make sure we do it in a manner that cant just be torn down later

this might sound a little too vague but how many people can we afford to demotivate and discourage with personal costs?

eventually monero will run out of social capital - go ahead and deny it lol

laugh at that

but i know people in the "real world" who dislike monero

in the past we laughed at that

"oh we'll show 'em"

but they know what it's about now. it should be the case that people can dedicate themselves to monero

I think just letting go of the "we" is the way forward

i don't agree

we is an useful abstraction

because that can be overapplied into a "there should be no 'we'"

group of individuals with aligned goals and ideals

rather than "let's be open about what 'we' is as a big tent"

<endogenic> but i know people in the "real world" who dislike monero --> for what reason(s) ?

it's just laughable to me we're so preoccupied with meaningless internal politics

be cause we're arrogant as f

Protect your own private property and the initiatives you have done for the community. Monero is permissionless. Volunteering is the highest private exchangeable asset we have as individuals. I just wanted to say this. Love you brethers.

"meaningless internal politics" lol

and we're blind

we're so, so blind

on one hand we try outreach

This is crucial to sort out and learn from before we grow.

meanwhile we act like a bunch of children

ok, i'm beginning to understand why jwinterm was having troubles with "we"

:p

None of this has been meaningless, and all started for a good reason.

none. all.

in 5 years no one will remember anything but the bad taste

that was a hard lesson to learn

and a person like me wont ever be welcome

so, you're welcome.

Why wouldn't you be welcome

what is a "person like you" endogenic ?

Idk what you're talking about, again

truth is usually bitter

sounds bitter

yeah Im just muting this for a bit I have better things to do, more rambling

no one in the crumbling imperial court wanted to listen to laotzu

then he left and guess what happened to that dynasty?

endogenic: don't worry bb, you're always welcome :*

what happened to Athens after they killed the annoying gadfly Sorates?

what you accept has consequences

kayront, we are all we on this blessed day

jw gets it

i really don't find myself in the "we" if "we" are blind, arrogant, act like children, and find truth bitter

too bad

you are we

deal with it

borg style or nothing?

damn son

lol

kayront: i havent yet heard of your effect on the public perception of monero

the arrogance is that monero will remain relevant

our outreach attempts are a silly band-aid

what if everyone already knows about monero?

relevant or irrelevant?

what if they're scared of you guys?

endogenic: I can confirm that almost nobody knows about monero

i am in the habit of literally stopping strangers and discuss internet privacy with them endogenic

gotta define monero first nioc

including crypto

no one knows about monero, i can assure you

only teasing on that one

anyway, feel free to ignore what i say

proof is later

not so much ignore as to try to even understand where you're coming from

my chip is on the fritz anyway. i'm sure i'll stop talking nonsense when i get it fixed

monero is what gave birth to the one true coin, mewownero

i know from experience that the average joe/jane on the street really has no clue about monero, so it also follows that they are not avoiding monero because they're scared of "us". furthermore that idea is extremely alien, what's there to be scared about? I can't even tell if you're being serious

they dont care about monero yet

it means nothing to them

use cash, etc

but the people who know anything about cryptocurrencies heard about monero

lots of VCs have too

and what is to be scared of?

no one can comfortably dedicate themselves to this project

the masses are easily whipped up by lies

this is a natural thing

and impossible to reverse, generally

it's been my experience that even in cryptocurrency circles most people don't understand the need for monero (or something like monero)

which is unfortunate

cloth that is died with ink can basically never be returned to its original state

but the masses don'y know about us

the culture and ideology are easy to corrupt

I suspect that's because almost no one actually *uses* crypto for payments. the fungibility problems and the lack of privacy (to say nothing of ridiculously high fees) become pretty obvious when you do

oh, just a little bit of authority as a decision-maker here

just a little bit of closed door decision making

just a little lie

people use it

and many more will, soon

but it doesn't have to be monero

it doesn't, but it would be wise if it was

well you have to maintain the safety of the project for that

true for any crypto project

i remember back in the day lots of people used to come and use monero to gain attention for themselves

one religious dude for example back in the day

we knew clearly they were being silly

nowadays the line is not so clear

*that* is the problem

the church of monero guy?

nah

but good example

he came closer

well in the beginning i thought it was a good idea

allah is doing guy?

remember that this project is a magnet for attacks

pretty much anything good is

use the angle of religious freedom to prevent persecution on religious grounds ("we believe in private money")

we're resilient as f because we anticipated many of them

but later on it seemed to assume truly cultish proportions

h/t to the OGs

but there are some we don't expect

gotta bounce

.bbl

lol

later endogenic

kayront: the tech in Monero is well respected all the way up to the "top". That's how I see it

States are well aware of the issues, but it is just not clear the potential impact of the trade-offs

By the way I don't think web of trust is a bad model

About my comments before

endogenic: web of trust is interesting on a number of levels, imo

midipoet: we gotta get them on monero too

cake wallet for every regulator today!

+1

kayront: they have their own shit to worry about.

lol

no doubt, in which case then plz leave our shit alone

:p

ha!

I think that Monero has to solve the conflict

if you're gonna mess with it, you should understand it

who knows how many people have not allocated capital in Monero because of regulatory risk?

In other words there has to not be a conflict of interest with any party except for people who want to mis state history

how many businesses might be afraid to list it as payment option

endogenic: yeah, I agree

kayront: the thing is Monero isn't perfect either

We have both scaling and usability issues

true

this is fine™

I think the next 12 months are going to be VERY interesting

how so ?

what scaling issues?

tx size?

you know what has more usability issues than monero?

my current isp

my mother couldn't use Monero

and what usability issues ? not apps but in the protocol

midipoet cant she use mymonero?

Lol

aside from change delays for ex

No

why?

endogenic: could monero survive and thrive on 10000 tx/s globally?

cause he plastic card is easier

*her

afaik, the answer is no

kayront: monero already thrives

wen monero card

surviving and thriving on 10k tx/s does not imply it doesn't thrive now endogenic

:p

niocbrrrrrr: that's the right question

as for usability issues, midipoet is right. you have to think about this from an average person pov

it's the apps that count there

midipoet that's a vendor adoption issue.

tap phone on pad

ding

or dont

scan code

that's still not as easy as a card

yes, think of us old people

side note, i don't think "my granny couldn't use xmr" is necessarily a bad thing. does granny do mobile banking also ? if the answer is not, she's probably better off not even knowing about monero

midipoet replace that with card

mymonero could make one easy

welll

but any younger person who's done online banking / mobile app banking should not have too much of a problem understanding a monero wallet

sure

if they can't, i say that's a design fault

exactly

bank website

kayront: this is true it's a generational thing. But then how big is our chain by then?

it's vendor afoption

midipoet lol exactly

that's a fun fermi problem

i wrote about this recently yet, but it's a draft

oh snap

just took me 30 min to get a code so that I could log into my bank online lol

i was waiting for some people to give their opinion, and they did, but then I wrote another post about cake wallet today

niocbrrrrrr: be your own bank noob

so i«'m waiting a day or two to publish this other post

endogenic: imma trying

there is no try

recently yet -> recently actually (not sure what happened there, lol)

only mymonero

midipoet: pretty big, probably. i gave the 10k tx/s as an extreme example of a moneroified world, but i don't think that'll happen in a day or a month

perhaps i am optimistic, but I think solutions will emerge as we face those challenges

for the foreseeable future it seems what exists now (in terms of scaling) would tolerate at least a few orders of magnitude, but maybe someone more knowledgeable on the matter could chime in

orders of man (of growth in txs)*

mag*. jesus. :p

I think we should view Monero as a vehicle towards a better future

As opposed to "the solution"

YES

it's *a* solution

to a very real problem

I agree

arguably *the* best solution we have so far

Agree

Well, plastic cards are good

monroecard™

speaking of monero card, has anyone tried bitsacard.com?

presumably it can be topped up with monteros and instantly converted to EUR, available on debit card immediatly

immediately*

i'd prefer not to (surveillance point) in general, but knowledge of how to do this (in a legit way, whether I like the implications or not (KYC)) is probably useful for many people who come to see why of monero and already have accounts in exchanges etc (so they are fine giving out KYC)

it's a pretty useful magic power to have, turn monteros into euro shitcoin for practical life purposes

until the landlord takes monero directly and the supermarket as well

exactly

suppose what you tap is a card anyway

look at updates instantly on your phone .. even via push

anonymizing that is the hard part

and that's even ok

bitsacard.com

Totally Safe!!

Lol

Looks pretty though

yeah, i read/heard about them some time ago

was impressed that in europe there was someone seemingly legit accepting xmr to add credit to an eur debit card

that's part of the holy trinity: how to get in, how to get out, how to hodl

kayront: can you send XMR to them?

yes midipoet

you send them XMR to an address generated by the app, you get EUR in your card immediately (well, some confirmations I imagine)

i'm not sure if it's always the same XMR address (it probably should be) - I've never used bitsa myself

the app = their mobile app

do you know who is behind it?

monero is the perfect tool for this of course, because not only can you topup with privacy and without linking on-chain funds with the card, but also because if they played it right, you can just add your bitsa xmr address to the address book, and topup your bitsa visa card at any time from your monroe wallet

which is pretty neat

no, but I do recall having been left with the impression that while apparently not reg'd in spain, the owners seem to be spanish

i don't recall what left that impression tho

oh, nice, they added this

last I checked it was not possible to have >1 virtual visa

that no longer seems to be the case, ditto for physical cards

lol

seriously tho, very cool product, assuming it works as advertised

when monero physical notes tho

4srs

kayront: they are registered in Monaco

The app works

Have downloaded and provided KYC

Will update when I know more

It's not obvious what options I have

Regarding "topping up"

keep us posted midipoet!

how did the KYC work? iirc they told me it was scan of passport/id only, no address needed

is that accurate?

no selfie right? just the thought.

what am i, 16

lol

standard KYC photo ID and address

did you need to take a pic of a bill or smt?

midipoet: re unclear which options to load card - blog.bitsacard.com/en/reload-bitsa-card-with-monero-xmr

midipoet: Interestingly, they have XMR supported since only six months

also, more generically: blog.bitsacard.com/en/top-up-bitsa-with-cryptocurrencies

seems easy enough

huh. How did this go so under the radar?

dEBRUYNE: have you used the card/company?

dunno midipoet, but it's partially on me

i could swear i wrote about the card before, but a quick grep on the blog directory says not

for those willing to undergo KYC I think - again, if it works exactly as advertised (no reason to believe it doesn't) - this is a pretty cool tool

can't pay for whatever in monero directly (yet?), fine, the next best bet beyond going all wololo on the shopkeeper is loading a visa card with monroes at your leisure

midipoet: No, never heard of them

Started googling after you mentioned them and saw news from February about a Monero addition

funny.

i've tried going wololo on shopkeepers. it doesn't seem to work, btw

:p

they are sending me emails in Spanish...so a few teething problems.

told ya there were tapas involved in this

LOL

one thing i remember is missing (imo, anyway) is temporary virtual cards. like those you can use to pay only once, or can create one with limited validity and/or maximum spend €

they supported only 1, and apparently now is 4 .. and 4 is better than 1, but it's a different use case

but anyway, minor detail. transform monroes into euros instantly. hot.

card has no balance. load up monerujo or cake, make a transfer to bitsa xmr address associated with your card (presumably it never changes; midipoet could you confirm this detail?), seconds or minutes later, can go to the ATM and withdraw cash in local currency

me likes

Huh

Yeah. It seems so

are you topping up a virtual card? i don't think they do insta orbital drone delivery yet

kayront: hello bitsacard support, wen available in USA USA USA

I know the answer :)

as far as I can tell, I have not yet received my top up details

A physical card is €20

Virtual one is free

according to the screenshots on the posts linked above midipoet, there's a top-up button in the bitsa app?

and there allegedly you can select monroe

can the physical card also be paid with crypto?

I have a virtual one, but it's not allowing me access the "top up" function. Might just need admin check

On their side

i see

Yes, there is a Monero option

for paying the physical card? or topping up

I see it when I try and order a physical card

ah

but it then says account does not exist.

I assume they have to initiate the accounts their side.

So totally not safe at all

In any way

but hey ho

Its a start!

not safe in which sense?

oh I see

I only have to top up small amounts.... And they are obviously the custodians of whatever amount I send to them

makes sense

yes, of course

for a non-custodial solution, have a look at monolith.xyz

monero not supported, of course

but if renXMR were to become a thing....

apocalypse resistant!!

i plan to write about this soon™ also, but it's things like monolith that make closer integration between monroe and ethereum stuff an interesting thing imo

probably a heretical opinion over here, but I think I'll be able to make a good point

we'll see :p

kayront: yeah I agree

86sorfCCrqLGagz4XmdW7WMTjQU3PQbS7DoNhr1pNCKG1iiTu2PcBDJBBr7LFqY7arNMsQJdffJZNN1U2Z8f8HAoRohU72z

donations for your bitsa?

0.0277028 XMR

I need that much

Send it!!

exact amount?

YES

i'll send it, holdon

sent

They even give you a timer

15mins

have to say, I am pretty damn impressed

good on one hand

on the other hand, if it has a timer, it can't be a "permanent bridge" ?

what I said before - save bitsa xmr address tied your card in addr book, and send monero there as you please

if it's not like that, then it requires going into the bitsa app to generate a topup request every time. not the end of the world, but needless friction in the case of monero, the addr is meant for reuse

did the tx register already midipoet ?

with bitsa

No

hmm, i got my change back already even

Oh it just arrived

Well f me

beautiful

what? COOPS?

COPS* ?

:D

"you have moneroj! now we know! to the gulag sir!"

i kid, i kid. what's up?

Was that the market rate though?

I bet you paid me way more than €2

they have to make their money somewhere...

dunno, i sent the exact amount you requested without even calculating

LOL

blind faith!

:P

>>> amount = 0.0277028

>>> xmreur = 77.18

>>> amount * xmreur

2.138102104

XMR/EUR from coingecko.com/en/coins/monero

you got 2.0€?

yes

not bad

I do really like the disposable virtual cards

maybe i'm doing the maths wrong

That's pretty damn cool

but that's 7% difference

?

6.5% or so

oh.

could be because of the very small value too

No. They set the rate...

i'm sure the rate isn't the market rate, as you said they gotta make money somewhere

but 6.5% is a bit steep :p

you can also send in XMR and then SEPA out

Which is interesting to say the least

yup

was the rate visible when you made the request midipoet ?

No

sneaky

Oh wait

midipoet: could you also confirm my thoughts on the "permanent bridge" above?

Yeah it is.

Powered by bitnovo

You can also set the XMR and it will give you the intended receiving € value

sorry, i didn't get that

is it always the same address then - would you get another 10 EUR if I sent the XMR equivalent of that now

I can set either intended XMR or € and it calculates it for me

yes but that's not the question. can you *reuse* the address ?

at any time, without going to bitsa app

I'll open a top up and see if it's the same address.

alright

8BBF7RB3YX2UAu2Sq9kNef7s3Sf6DdmiYXJT6oaBUUY15BbiD7XNmfbhTUzinVttG7fC4hhPuUjH9AdkTcT5i5RCLzeUKZ2

It's different

yup

well, something to suggest to them

it's not the end of the world

but adds needless friction imo

it's the difference between going into bitsa app, topup, select monero, get new address, switch to wallet, confirm address (paranoia) and amount (ditto) again at bitsa, back to monero wallet, send

and simply selecting the address from the addr book, and entering any amount

latter is the clear winner in my mind

I agree.

Though address reuse has downsides as well

Anyways, I will play around with it more tomorrow

And order the physical card

laterzzz

Oh and thanks for the XMR kayront !!

no problem man, i'll sponsor you again for the physical card if you want

you be the lab rat, i'll be the capitalist behind the screen

lmao

LOL

Its 20 euro. That's almost a dinner date ;-)

dress up baby

:p

86LDtETrURVBYpqwDcu6cmgABfCHWKFokSZzr1ibwoqtY4Qse4sqEwqA5eNzGTiZNTXMRDEzb98JEYFzKzzhyAxt3zgDRf5

0.27730991 XMR

for the card?

I'll have the lobster rissoto ;-)

that's what the app is saying, yeah

I have to say of all the apps I have used, this one is pretty slick. It's very intuitive...

sent

I have to say, this is the sort of cool stuff that Monero enables. no chance in hell I'd be doing this with some semi-random internet avatar if I was tying a "verified" bank account / paypal / etc

i know not everyone cares about that, but I do

They even give a customer care number!!

cool

the recharge reference seems a bit weird tho

looks like a date, but it's in 2019

maybe a coincidence

maybe a server with a seriously wrong clock set

lol

midipoet: do you want some dessert? :D

kayront: that's a great spot with the reference!!

It's just coincidence I would say

i know how we can tell! order another card!

:D

Hahhahaa

You know what's funny

It recognises the transaction almost immediately

you hear a bitsa drone out of your window?

oh.

:p

But it doesn't show up in the account for a while

kayront: if you just reuse an address for topping up you have no way of knowing the exact amount that you will receive on the card

niocbrrrrrr: yeah. You don't even know if it'll show up at all!

well, if the rate is fixed AND you trust them, you do

Lol

it might be off by a few cents tho

the app calculates so.....

yeah but i mean if you don't use their app (address reuse)

your wallet also estimates the EUR value of the XMR

midipoet: if it was set up to do so

it would be off by a few cents. if you know the rate skew bitsa offers, you can then guess pretty good how much ends up in the card

kayront: my cli doesn't estimate amounts

but that's a valid point. both ways should be supported i think

niocbrrrrrr: open a new tmux pane, run bc or python repl, and now it does

:D

sounds like greek to a potato

i meant just run the calculations manually

i imagine most users won't be using the cli to top-up anyway

(or for anything, really :p personally I use it too, it's just simpler)

I use it cause it's the first thing I learned

would have to learn to us egui or......

use gui*

if you can use the cli, chances are you can use the gui

the reverse is not necessarily true

most ppl seem to dislike cli

in general, not monroe's specifically

when I tried a couple of years ago there were bugs that made it annoying

Monero has a GUI?

soon™

™™

One part of me is really sad that bitsa doesn't allow me to show my balance in XMR

and then just spend it in a shop

But I suppose that's here nor there

niocbrrrrrr: you should try new goois

selsta: once I finish moving from my incompetent isp

.w goois

it’s the old word for gui

^-- i live there lol

well, very close to

lol

gooi is where all the rich folk live

all monereans want to be famous

:-P

niocbrrrrrr: closest we have is bitpay card. And it's not bad.

thx, will have to check it out

It only takes Bitcoin for top ups

But I just exchange to BTC using services and it's ezpz

It's the only way I can get paid in XMR and still survive.

nothing is easy here in New North Korea :)

Yo dEBRUYNE how do I make Revuo better?

More pictures of cute animals?

crossword puzzles

daily revuo! we need exponential growth

horoscope

Like this orangutan.

Ooooooh. Horoscopes would be hilarious.

Capricorns should sell today. Gemini should buy!

I would ask monerobux each time.

.buyorsell Cancer

.buyorsell gemini

.buyorsell Aquarius

monerbux is best bux

Thoughts on orangutan selsta?

it can’t beat the fox

still cute

or monkey? usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/cG9YyUaw/monero-monkey.png

What else is orange?

Toucan beaks

depends on the species

The Cheetos cheetah is orange.

Maybe we can get him to endorse Monero.

Also Tony the tiger.

that was made for me

tony the tiger would be amazing.

lol niocbrrrrrr

tardigrade is the official animal of Monero

rehrar: Can have a look soon^tm

I think the current editions are quite decent

They allow people to basically stay up to date with minimal effor

t

Revuo is Centralized.

I control the information flow. >:)