00:00:47 ^ two sentences with the second starting at "disclaimer" 00:00:55 In other words, a text or video source claiming for profit should be cited 00:03:10 Well, the plan is to generate revenue and then it’s only 1 board vote away from activating ads on the videos. 00:03:19 Because the revenue is not enough. 00:03:58 > A for-profit corporation is an organization which aims to earn profit through its operations 00:06:24 So you can't cite sgp or nm90 then 00:08:35 The plan has never been to make money, merely to find ways to avoid requiring donations through selling merch etc. 00:10:17 It has been explicitly stated that there will never be monetization of the YT as well. 00:13:02 sethsimmons: Where? 00:13:17 Surely most of these talks are on the websites of the respective conventions 00:13:57 selsta, an llc is not necessarily a "for-profit" corporation 00:14:00 So the remainder of the content which can only be accessed through this YT channel is the content such as the coffee chats and breaking Monero which as far as I'm aware were initiatives mostly lead by Justin 00:14:03 it's just a limited liabilit corporation 00:14:17 monerospace could be the hitler on ice of corporations 00:14:50 sethsimmons: Can you link where it is explicitly stated that there will be no YT monetization? 00:15:01 Maybe I missed some huge discussion. 00:16:47 Sorry, it was another channel, thought it was in here. No monetization is my understanding per sgp_ and would 100% be my choice. 00:17:12 There has never been and never will be monetization on the channel 00:17:26 Sure, I'll explicitly say it, and it's backed by every single person with some sort of voting capacity. There will be no monetization on any youtube videos currently hosted, and that will be codified into bylaws. 00:17:35 oh, sgp_ beat me to it 00:18:15 We don't have any intent for monetization on future videos, but I don't see any need to make promises there considering the current discussion 00:18:33 To be 100% transparent, I marked one video as "contains paid promotion." That was the recording of the recent Greece Meetup that Cake Wallet sponsored and Mastering Monero donated a few books for. I and no one else who published that video made money 00:20:02 Truly the scandal of our time 00:20:13 I didn't know Monero could have drama like this :P 00:20:17 You better believe it 00:20:40 #Top10ScandalsOf2020 00:21:09 So is the new channel the Monero Spaceforce? 00:22:25 Honestly my main concern from all this is the potential loss of the Coffee Chats 00:22:26 space cadets* 00:22:37 I really hope they continue in some way 00:22:43 we will be hosting some sort of equivalent. Maybe not the same name, because that would be appropriation. 00:22:53 And some people may just not want to come 00:23:02 but justin and I dont plan on stopping hosting that 00:23:17 [2020-08-13 16:34:56] what exactly are the "assets"? this channel, @monerocommunity twitter and mastodon handle? 00:23:17 [2020-08-13 16:35:14] subreddit? 00:23:18 As a lurker I really appreciate the monthly roundup of news and discussions from people across the project 00:23:22 [2020-08-13 16:35:19] And server infrastructure hosted. Because we pay. 00:23:27 [2020-08-13 16:37:14] jwinterm: just to note it just moderates this channel 00:23:32 interesting how the youtube channel was not mentioned 00:24:28 I don't think you would be satisfied with anything other than full dissolution of the LLC. 00:24:33 Which is off the table 00:24:42 cankerwort: thanks, I appreciate it! I had a lot of fun doing them 00:25:16 Monero Tea Time here we come 00:25:25 needmoney90: ? 00:25:46 <•needmoney90> I don't think you would be satisfied with anything other than full dissolution of the LLC. 00:26:25 what are the commands to remove myself from oplist ;_; 00:26:27 I dont want the dot 00:26:39 the ones I found on youtube with /cs dont work on freenode 00:30:54 I'm personally quite fond of tea and fika food as is the Swedish way; would endorse 00:43:23 https://gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/db745ee6b967e91b5318f2db04f4ee2f 00:43:32 > Finer details of the arrangement are in discussion, such as responsibilities and assets 00:43:37 who has this been discussed with? 00:46:03 "Justin and Doug will be starting a new workgroup" 00:47:22 "Effective immediately, Justin and Doug are stepping down from their leadership positions in the Monero Community Workgroup." 00:47:31 all of this implies taking over the YouTube channel lol 01:01:49 needmoney90: sgp_: is the Blockfolio monero account also taken over by the LLC? 01:02:23 selsta: obviously not 01:02:43 Well nothing is obvious anymore seeing that the YT account got sneakily taken over. 01:02:44 Core and Outreach are a part of it already too. I've just been the only one posting anything 01:03:58 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/i8hbr8/monero_community_workgroup_is_preparing_for_the/g18r1w3/ 01:04:00 [REDDIT] Monero Community Workgroup is preparing for the large growth ahead (self.Monero) | 24 points (64.0%) | 96 comments | Posted by SamsungGalaxyPlayer | Created at 2020-08-12 - 16:52:06 01:04:58 Here you talk about the YouTube, Twitter and Blockfolio account. How should I know that YouTube and Twitter get "obviously" taken over and Blockfolio does not? 01:06:53 There has been 0 transparency in this. 01:22:47 Suppose sgp_ could have left the videos right where they are and transfered the YouTube account somehow? :-P Would have been nice. 01:29:03 What's the fate of the videos going to be now? We don't know! Tune in next to As The World Turns. 01:29:19 Trust the board of directors™ 01:29:29 The videos are CC, and not owned by sgp or anyone else for that matter. 01:29:53 There's no question as to what happens to them, and they can be migrated one way or another. 01:30:05 Migrated while losing all views. 01:30:07 Well yeah but the video stats and stuffz... would be nice if they could stay with the old account 01:30:19 The channel is still around, of course, and we'll be chatting more about it tomorrow. 01:30:25 for sure dsc_ 01:30:42 I understand it's not a requirement as it is his damn channel 01:30:43 It's a weird situation. 01:30:49 It just would have been nice :P 01:31:12 Yeah thats the rub, he built it and ran it from the ground up 01:31:24 And I certainly don't want to see it fall by the wayside if he has to give it up now. 01:32:09 This is one of the many things that get weird when you aim for decentralization and avoid formalization. 01:32:15 Changes like this get hairy, quickly. 01:32:27 That's assuming core neglects to maintain it 01:32:35 We don't know that. 01:32:49 For sure, which I'm not saying they will, just that sgp has been by far the biggest contributor to it and has owned/run it for years 01:33:00 Just that it opens the door for neglect 01:33:07 have you seen the website? 01:33:10 jk don't ban me 01:33:15 But perhaps just a "warm" handoff or something similar to a clear ownership would be helpful. 01:34:35 Core has a youtube channel. 01:34:40 Happy to take an firm suggestions, but again, no one has volunteered to own/run it, and I'm not sure throwing more at core (especially in the marketing/community department) is the best move in the long run. 01:34:47 That, I would like to note, is unmaintaned, relatively. 01:34:54 They could have also hosted these videos, and did not 01:35:10 fair enough nm90 01:36:01 As I keep saying, this is the issue with the status quo of individuals controlling this stuff. Everyone seems okay with ceding all control of stuff to Core, but is that really the right move? 01:37:02 We attempted to head off the issue by splitting control off from one person. If you guys expect to keep the status quo, this is the outcome you have to expect. Either that or give it to core, which I think is either of equal or greater concern 01:37:10 Was the @monerocommunity account on Twitter renamed to @monerospace ? 01:37:30 xmrhaelan: youtube too 01:37:45 you can't rename an @ on twitter 01:37:48 please note I was rather neutral to the LLC idea (read: could not care) so "you guys" does not apply to me :-P 01:37:50 that is your account 01:38:00 You actually can jwinterm 01:38:12 Idk if its recent but I just learned you can a few days ago 01:38:20 you could always do that 01:38:33 TIL 01:38:52 Yes. I once went by the twitter handle bigboii420xXx 01:38:57 lmao 01:39:00 how? 01:39:05 thats prime real estate 01:39:08 you can rename the stuff that displays left of the @ 01:39:11 Web app, under you account 01:39:13 but not post@ 01:39:21 No you can change both 01:39:24 Just tried a few days ago 01:39:40 ohyea I see now 01:39:41 til 01:39:43 Can't remember exactly but Google is your friend :) 01:40:51 this a-hole stole my nick like a year or two before I joined and never even uses it https://twitter.com/jwinterm 01:41:08 Same with my preferred nick 🙁 01:41:17 I’d honestly pay money to harvest it 01:42:28 he's got same name as AI in neuromancer 01:52:39 > All assets currently owned by the MCW are either FOSS or creative commons 01:52:52 Are social media accounts FOSS / CC? 01:55:19 They clearly were MCW assets as seen in the first gist shared by sgp 01:55:29 so I wonder if this was a wording mistake? 01:58:08 The content is CC, so I assume that’s what was meant? Not sure precisely. 01:59:08 jwinterm: IF they don't use it and you buy a website w/ that URL, you can probably take it over 01:59:28 By telling Twitter, hey I own this website that uses this 'name' 01:59:46 selsta, since there was/is no legal entity known as the MCW then ownership would lie with the person that registered/controlled the account, no? 01:59:49 good to know xmrscott[m] 02:47:43 twitter handle squatting 03:44:29 seriously though, how do you deop someone for realsies? 03:44:40 so they don't get autoopd? 03:49:52 /msg chanserv -O #channel user 03:49:53 I think 07:25:49 needmoney90: i think the community will was to try and find another solution to the problems as stated, and preferably through open discussion and transparent communication. This did not seem to be desired, and so the status quo was changed to the alternate path of you and sgp_ relinquishing control of MCW to Core. 07:26:08 As far as i remember, nobody in this community asked for that to happen. All they asked was for decisions that impacted the whole community not to be taken without the communities input 11:18:02 During the initial discussion especially multiple people repeatedly asked for sgp/nm90 to resign/leave/start something new. 11:18:56 Thus the decision to just start something new to let MCW remain as it is under rehrar instead, and allow for a more focused/formalized WG to be started to help support MCW and other WGs across the board. 11:21:34 sethsimmons: Can you quote those messages asking to "resign" or "leave"? 11:23:19 Feel free to dig back through logs, or I can later. Was mostly geonic, and I believe someone else mentioned the same a few times 11:23:45 I know geonic was repeatedly asking/encouraging them both to leave 11:23:55 Can’t remember who the other was off the top of my head. 11:26:48 sethsimmons: i think you will find that one or two persons opinion (without the provision of evidence of this, as yet) is not "community will". 11:27:17 personally, i cannot remember anybody asking either of them to 'resign' or 'leave' 11:27:43 I mean tbf there is no need for community will if they decide the best course of action is to step down and start something new 11:28:14 The community will was pretty clearly opposed to anything resembling formalization, and especially against any legal entity. 11:28:27 sethsimmons: of course not, but my response was against needmoney saying it was community will for them to leave and form something else 11:28:33 which is wasn't 11:28:59 *which it wasn't 11:30:40 +1 to midipoet's points. Pretty much my take as well. 11:31:18 There’s no way I can read the things that were said other than there was no way forward (other than keeping status quo) without them stepping down to start a new group. 11:31:47 If they had started a new group + LLC and remained moderators/leaders here that would have been seen as a conflict of interest and was also opposed IIRC 11:32:47 Maybe “community will” isn’t the best term for why this change happened/needed to happen, though. 11:33:18 More that it was the only clear path forward for the things they wanted to do to further support Monero/the community. 11:33:58 well this is the quote which is was responding to, and was from needmoney90: "We've done what we can to divorce our own accounts from this workgroup, because that was the will of the people here." 11:34:22 if he didn't mean what i have interpreted, then fair enough 11:34:43 The majority were not asking for them to leave (some vocal minority was), but the majority were vehemently opposed to what they saw as the best path forward. 11:35:42 Yeah I’ll let him respond specifically to that. 11:35:54 tldr what happened? 11:36:03 Thus if the LLC will run/own something it has to be a new workgroup/effort. 11:36:11 Which part lol 11:36:26 exactly 11:36:33 i'm trying to understand based on the fragments, but i still have no idea 11:36:33 lol 11:36:38 Hopefully there will be an announcement today about the new workgroup, which should clarify things further. 11:36:53 kayront: sgp / nm90 announced a new workgroup and said they will step down from MCW and hand it over to core 11:37:17 alright 11:37:18 and now they silently transferred the MCW youtube account to the new LLC 11:37:22 Basically sgp/nm90 saw the need for more focus/formalization for MCW + a supporting LLC, it was pretty strongly opposed, then what selsta said happened. 11:37:33 which has all the event youtube videos, views, etc. 11:37:35 yeah, that's not cool 11:37:40 lol 11:37:52 well, when you put it like that!! 11:37:59 That part is being discussed more at length today, and I also have mixed feelings about it 🙂 11:38:03 i mean leaving and creating another group sure 11:38:17 but the youtube account thing, i find doesn't sit well on first analysis 11:38:25 curious to hear what they have to say about it tho in terms of motivations 11:38:43 kayront: https://gist.github.com/SamsungGalaxyPlayer/db745ee6b967e91b5318f2db04f4ee2f 11:38:55 you should read this statement and say if this reads like "we will take over the youtube account" 11:38:56 not to go offtopic, but are there any cake wallet devs here that any of you know of? i'd like to get in touch soon about smt i'm writing 11:39:08 they are on telegram 11:39:13 Well it was sgps creation, effort, and almost solely driven by him, so I assume more because he wants to see it continue to grow/expand. 11:39:47 And the videos are CC so can be reproduced elsewhere 11:40:14 No one claimed they aren’t CC. The views and metadata are the things we talk about. 11:40:16 And it’s also partly based on the idea that “hand everything over to core” isn’t really decentralized or helpful long term. 11:40:17 i don't read anything of the sort selsta (re gist) 11:40:23 to be honest, though i have no reason not to trust sgp_ with the Youtube channel. that it would be part of an LLC, i think is the problem. i had actually never thought of ads before. i also cringe at the thought if those 5min sponsorship blurbs on podcasts. h 11:40:40 only on telegram? 11:40:49 It’s already been publicly stated there will never be monetization. 11:40:58 WhIch can change at any time. 11:41:12 The community would know and could do something about it. 11:41:25 It could also change anytime now as it’s currently owned by sgp exclusively 11:41:32 sethsimmons: yeah. perhaps. i have seen Monero go hell for leather on sponsorships before, so am not convinced 11:41:33 This way it at least has board oversight 11:42:00 Idk what that phrase means lol, but every member of the board is 100% against monetization 11:42:36 sethsimmons: are we equating monetisation with sponsorship revenue here? 11:42:44 because they are slightly different 11:42:48 sethsimmons: Why was the youtube account not mentioned once anywhere? 11:42:54 The statement even says the opposite. 11:44:51 I understand that it is sgp’s account and that he doesn’t want to transfer it. But this is something that could have been talked about. 11:45:04 I hadn’t thought about that, but I would imagine the same would be true 11:45:15 Agreed. 11:45:20 i do sort of feel like with all this drama that sgp_ and needmoney90 get a hard time. i don't think that should be the case, at least not to them personally. i do think that its a clash of ideology/incentives though, especially those that get clouded with the notion/perception of LLCs - and even more so when assets are being distributed. 11:45:57 Doing it sneakily instantly gives me a bad feeling about all this. 11:47:19 Yeah, this is exactly why I think the *concept* of starting a new WG instead of continuing here is likely the best step forward. But the actual implementation of that split/change is tricky and nuanced. 11:48:09 Agreed, it wasn't clearly stated up front, and should have been discussed/shared more widely before something like this was done IMO. This is being talked about more in depth today by the new WG. 11:49:23 But I'd also love to say for the record (like what midipoet said above) that this isn't a reason to give either of them a hard time personally, they've dedicated so much time and effort to growing Monero as a community, and clearly have the best interests of Monero at heart here. 11:49:52 Hopefully we can continue to work together to find good solutions to the problems this has brought to the forefront (problems that have existed for a long time) across all WGs. 11:50:49 I am grateful for the work both of them have put into this community - and urge giving them a good deal of leeway before interpreting their motivations as nefarious. 11:51:35 Agreed 🙂 11:51:50 i don't think nefarious, but motivations all the same. 11:52:23 They certainly don't get a pass to do something nefarious (as none of us should), but it should also be apparent that they've donated countless hours of blood, sweat, and tears for this project and so have a lot of "skin in the game" so to speak. 11:52:47 well which would also be a reason for nafarious actions 11:52:47 Sorry, how should I react if someone claims to step down and start a new workgroup, while not mentioning in a single line that assets will be transferred? 11:52:49 "Great" ? 11:52:50 *nefarious 11:53:43 Thats why I'm all about constructive feedback from anyone here who has strong ideas of how to continue to grow/expand this WG and others as the community grows 11:54:30 Come on, obviously no one is telling you you can't be honest about how you view things. There's no way you can interpret what I said to mean you should just shutup and say yes to everything. 11:55:16 But you're also doing a bit less to give constructive feedback and just throwing the YT issue at everyone who walks into this room. 11:55:36 Because no one knowns about the YT transfer, it wasn’t mentioned at all? 11:55:37 I'm all for helpful discussions that further aid in making good decisions around the community/this WG 11:56:32 There was supposed to be an announcement yesterday that got delayed AFAICT 11:56:42 But that issue is also not decided, as I've mentioned many times. 11:57:47 And, as I've stated, I'm not a fan of the way the YT thing was handled, and agree on many of your underlying points. 11:58:32 any idea of what other assets will get transferred to the new LLC/WG? 11:59:11 So far just the small @monerocommunityworkgroup Twitter handle that sgp also started/own/ran. 11:59:24 Then lots of new assets/services are being spun up/started soon. 12:02:02 Yeah no other things currently used for MCW are being moved/migrated/etc. The YT is the only controversial one, it seems. 12:42:02 Except Core can monetize video at any time too. People act as if somehow an LLC is the only thing that can change. /smh 12:50:38 Yeah, unless someone can find a way to apply Nakamoto consensus to YouTube account changes I think all of this is going to rely on some trust :P 13:06:52 I'm reading these comments as trust in Core, and distrust in me who has run the channel for its entire history so far 13:08:30 That is not my position 13:08:52 That's some people's apparently with regards to things like monetization 13:13:10 Exactly 13:13:43 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivqKTwmCmks 13:13:44 [ Trust - Megadeth - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com 13:13:58 Lest we forget, a member of Core some years ago created the Monero Enterprise Alliance scandal because they thought it wouldn't have any major blowback to prove that Core can't be trusted, only the code 13:14:42 What's to stop a Core member revoking everyone else's website commit access and putting up a header on the website that getmonero.org is sponsored by Hershey's for the month of October? 13:15:54 This is a legitimate concern. There is no publicly available governance policy Core has put out on Core owned assets 13:16:41 Similarly, Core can do a sponsored, pinned post on r/monerocommunity now that they own it 13:26:34 At least two of the holy, can do no wrong, Samurai 7-esque cryptids that are Core have shown to be big trolls. 13:27:32 kayront: I believe cake is vikrants here and they are also on reddit 13:29:00 as well as on TG 13:33:59 Also FWIW South Africa has a extradition treaty with the US. As does Canada and countries where nondisclosed Core members live. 13:34:07 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties 13:34:36 ....plus not forget that YT is run by a US company lol 13:40:05 here are screenshots of all the videos on the channel: https://imgur.com/a/vQZTPic 13:41:25 From late 2017 to MoneroKon, the channel was pretty much only for the Coffee Chats and Breaking Monero 13:42:29 At MoneroKon I sat behind the AV table all day to make sure the stream worked fine, then I brought a hard drive with the individual talks back home and put all those together 13:43:02 actually not all day, all 2 or 3 days or whatever 13:43:27 *drama intensifies* 13:47:17 http://27blltx6kt26k65umbs2tme6rhv4i7rhagnzzljp3bsoqfkj6w364sqd.onion/cake-wallet-initial-impressions-and-suggestions.html 13:47:47 i'll post on reddit in a bit also, if in the meantime someone is in TG with the Cake devs, I'd appreciate if you could pass it along 13:48:18 vikrants ^ 13:48:40 Hi 13:49:30 kayront: can not open 13:49:40 you need tor browser / torified browser vikrants 13:49:47 .onion 13:50:48 Ah 13:50:50 Ok 13:51:47 if we don't use .onions, who will? :D 13:54:39 lol that wololo pic 13:54:58 :D 13:56:15 kayront: renXMR doesn't exist, but afaik sXMR does 13:56:29 https://synthetix.exchange/#/trade/sXMR-sUSD 13:57:42 fluffypony: i plan to make a post about monero/ethereum soon™, should include that there too 13:58:16 but correct me if I'm wrong, there is no good way to trustlessly convert from XMR to sXMR right now, is there? 13:59:06 Its a purely synthetic asset, so there is no way at all to convert 13:59:06 i'm not as familiar with synthethix, the cool thing about renXMR if it existed is that we could access a tokenized representation of real XMR in the monero chain, and pull them b ack at any time (while being mindful that bugs exist and smart contract risk of course) 13:59:38 Its not even trusted, its just a synthetic asset reflected by sXMR with the peg maintained (in practice) by SNX stakers. 13:59:42 right, that's what I thought 14:00:01 not to say it isn't useful in other contexts (sXMR, that is), but I do think renXMR would have very unique and very desirable properties 14:00:30 i don't want to go too deeply into that discussion rn because as I said I do plan to write down my thoughts about the whole thing in a more organized manner soon 14:00:38 but it sure is an interesting discussion if you ask me 14:01:59 The biggest pitfall to me is you lose what makes Monero so powerful -- its native network and it's native (and easy) real privacy 14:02:11 When you wrap/convert it. 14:02:53 agreed 14:04:12 Anyone done much thinking about the privacy of BTC taproot-powered payment pools ( + lightning network) 14:05:08 Can you explain what you mean? 14:05:30 What is sxmr? I'm only getting links to shit like "Penile Girth Enlargement Strategies" when I search it? xD 14:05:34 Taproot/Schnorr hiding on/off-ramps for Lightning? 14:05:49 This oceanus 14:06:03 oceanus[m]: synthetic XMR 14:06:05 Tone and Jimmy talked about it on last nights stream - basically it seems like you can have btc divided amongst a group of people inside a payment pool, and cannot on-chain see who owns what. 14:07:02 I've never heard of a "payment pool" unless they mean a Multisig? 14:07:20 A 1-of-N multisig possible? 14:07:30 https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/building-on-taproot-payment-pools-could-be-bitcoins-next-layer-two-protocol 14:08:48 Oh its N-of-N musig with TR used to hide that its a musig 14:08:50 weird 14:10:28 Yeah I don't see anything overtly novel 14:10:56 And nothing that inherently aids privacy, as all 3 have to sign to do anything other than move an original amount you own out back to you 14:11:10 It in some small ways reduces the ownership heuristic 14:11:23 But amounts still make practically retaining that privacy difficult 14:11:51 And just like all complex musig transactions it's incredibly difficult to make and bake in all the terms you need to the "contract" to do what is needed. 14:16:13 Its great that Taproot helps to make multisig indistinguishable from normal transactions (if all transactions use Taproot, which they wont because optional/soft-fork) 14:16:32 But in reality I don't see much practical gain outside of for the techno-elite (at best) 14:16:39 ^ yup 14:42:49 If you guys want to complain at someone, you should try Core. They have a YouTube account and didn't even bother to copy clone the creative commons videos sgp_ went to the trouble of putting up. And now, because they failed to do this, you expect him to give his own account over, because you feel entitled to the views. 14:43:33 Honestly, some of you here aren't interested in anything but drama. I have no desire to really argue with unreasonable people. 14:43:40 Grow up 14:43:51 I get the perspective however of people contributing in the past with the expectation that it would be under the MCW name 14:44:00 what's the exchange rate of YouTube Views to XMR? 14:44:14 Even so.... I don't think people really know what they are asking for by having this given up to Core 14:44:43 Its the perfect decentralized community, just give it alll to Fluffy 14:44:53 How ideal 14:45:24 oh lord not again 14:45:29 :-P 14:45:43 It is what the community demands fluffypony :p 14:45:46 Is that not the current proposal 14:45:51 What about if branding remains MCW but the new workgroup/LLC steward the channel (as sgp_ has been doing up until this point)? 14:45:53 Just give it all to Fluffy 14:45:56 * fluffypony investigates changing his name 14:46:15 "the pony who until recently was fluffy" 14:46:18 Seth: that would be appropriating the name! 14:46:26 Thats why I'm asking here :) 14:46:30 We can't dare have a company and also keep the name 14:46:35 People will get pissy 14:46:35 the pony that would do anything for YouTube View Token (YTVT) 14:46:35 To see if thats an interesting compromise. 14:46:37 sethsimmons: the reason I don't want to do that is because I would STILL have to give up all more work, since future content I make won't be under the MCW name 14:46:43 Lets see :) 14:46:51 s/more/my 14:46:51 sgp_ meant to say: sethsimmons: the reason I don't want to do that is because I would STILL have to give up all my work, since future content I make won't be under the MCW name 14:47:22 Could clarify future content you make/drive/produce as created by/for the new workgroup, instead of MCW 14:47:23 If you so choose 14:47:33 But under the same channel 14:47:46 Yeah but that's what people on the other side are complaining about now 14:47:56 But that gets weird if no one in MCW steps up to drive the overall ownership/effort 14:48:18 Well, but the channel remains the same branding in this instance, just videos change branding 14:48:37 *MCW branding overall, individual videos/series are branded per their workgroup 14:48:45 **or creators wishes 14:48:54 I'm more interested in my efforts going towards supporting another workgroup 14:49:07 I'm not interested in contributing to a MCW channel 14:49:32 Then perhaps a new channel is in order 14:49:45 Or at the very least clearer messaging about the move of the channel to the new workgroup. 14:50:05 OK guys/girls, I'm going to be taking over the MCW now. Every weekend we'll have rap battles. Each workgroup picks their best rapper. 14:50:26 Rehrar is disqualified as he has been known to "spit that lit shit" end-quote 14:50:28 dsc_: I won some rap battles in high school no joke :p 14:50:35 oooh nice. Any video of that? 14:50:43 Yes but that's locked down 14:50:53 well shit I pick sgp_ then 14:50:56 :P 14:51:09 Basically I was the only one in high school willing to swear in front of everyone lol 14:51:38 Student of the month dropping F bombs lol 14:53:42 8:44:44 AM Its the perfect decentralized community, just give it alll to Fluffy 14:53:46 LOL 14:54:09 i'll take the name then? 14:54:47 but needmoney 14:55:00 what if the drama is also a fabrication 14:55:04 what if you are double agents 14:55:52 maybe a first question we skipped over is if Core even wants to maintain this channel 14:56:01 i dont think y'all want to start a rap battle 14:56:10 what do you think i've been training for 14:56:30 i want to maintain this channel 14:56:34 it's now mine 14:56:48 the project is the community's anyway 14:57:04 this channel is not being maintaind? why? 14:57:10 it is 14:57:13 i am maintaining it 14:57:29 i dont mind contributing as well 14:57:33 ok good 14:57:36 hired 14:58:30 hello i'm applying to be benevolent dictator of #monero-community 14:58:42 ^-- metoo 14:58:52 and speaking of rap, i can arrange for popular rappers to promote the coin if interest exist 14:59:01 ping loogi floofypony can haz +o 14:59:06 what is required to maintain this channel? 14:59:18 fungible[m]: ytcracker? 14:59:26 no 14:59:29 real rappers 14:59:33 omg 14:59:36 what an insult 14:59:37 not spam rap 14:59:38 im offended 14:59:46 i'm already dictator noobs 14:59:47 sgp_: to be fair, i specifically said i would trust you running it. 14:59:52 he was funny though 14:59:53 that's how dictatorship works 15:00:06 you cant just claim it afterwards or we have to rap battle 15:00:08 fungible[m]: what are real rappers??? 15:00:11 and i will easily win those 15:00:28 fungible[m]: sir do you represent 50 cent? 15:00:29 million+ listeners? 15:00:36 lolok 15:00:39 midipoet: would you all feel better if Core agreed to hand the channel off to us? 15:00:44 no but we have access 15:00:47 lol 15:00:48 because honestly I feel that's in their best interest 15:00:53 wtf happened to monero 15:00:54 guys 15:01:01 endogenic: nothing happened 15:01:02 this is an irc channel for community discussion 15:01:13 development moved to wownero, m*nero is just a ghost town now 15:01:14 idk but sgp save this chanel please 15:01:17 yea wtf 15:01:32 remember when the community maintained things 15:01:37 and we just self organized 15:01:42 and there wasnt one person deciding 15:01:52 or some special chosen group 15:02:00 yes we used to be praised for our members 15:02:12 the channel is mine anyway 15:02:20 it was always one person deciding things, we just took feedback seriously 15:02:22 it's already been decided 15:02:34 well, often 2-3 people 15:02:45 that is the value of the community 15:02:45 sgp_: no monero community elected this channel to be owned by one or two people 15:02:54 consistent threat modeling 15:02:58 what changed? 15:03:55 this channel has always been quite heavy on the drama 15:04:03 also not much development going on here 15:04:20 its just people talking 15:04:21 dsc_: how else will the illuminati execute the human instrumentality plan? 15:04:23 about marketing stuff 15:04:28 no offense 15:04:28 they need to makeup drama first 15:04:29 if i recall it is more strategy and organization 15:04:31 but development continues 15:04:32 and there must he a sacrifice 15:05:08 endogenic: want to start the monero drama workgroup with me? We'll travel the world and do theater shows 15:05:33 too late 15:05:37 sgp_: in this whole thing the community has not had a say in the outcomes. 15:05:41 we'll do reenactments of famous Monero milestones 15:05:48 community needs to stay focused what is priority on the list 15:05:54 midipoet: shit your mouth that is not appropriate 15:05:57 and what resources are required 15:06:01 midipoet: what would new users think?!? 15:06:16 that we have a community free of agendas? 15:06:18 come on 15:06:43 lol 15:06:43 .bbl 15:06:43 sgp_: you made a plan, it got push back. You decided on a new strategy, made an announcement and then went with it. That is fine, but you can't then say, oh well are you happy now - as we didn't get to decide anything! 15:06:43 you didn't understand what you read, I'll be back later 15:07:35 another successful NSA psyop 15:08:03 lmao it was my plan all along, anonimal was right 15:08:32 not you lol 15:08:43 thats it im calling 50 cent 15:08:55 50 cent sucks call ytcracker 15:09:08 s/call/PRIVMSG/ 15:09:08 dsc_ meant to say: 50 cent sucks PRIVMSG ytcracker 15:09:51 I still would like to call on Core to symbolically offer the channel 15:09:55 will be taken less seriously involving yt 15:10:42 can someone eli5 what is going on with this channel 15:10:45 kindly 15:10:49 fungible[m]: who cares 15:11:05 The Monero codebase is there, to be picked up and worked on by anyone 15:11:08 that's most important 15:11:08 sgp_: you may think so 15:11:16 but you are just a piece on a board 15:11:24 endogenic: stop playing 4d chess 15:11:29 :( 15:11:32 :D 15:11:32 the entire prospect to me is absurd, since Core has never maintained or controlled this channel 15:11:37 all chess is 4s 15:11:39 lol 15:11:45 tru 15:11:51 but sgp you are core 15:12:02 at least in my heart 15:12:07 <3 15:12:34 yes i trust sgp 15:12:41 what 15:12:43 why 15:16:55 endogenic: don't verify, trust 15:17:21 asymptotically is essential to business relationships 15:18:44 gross 15:20:20 in hindsight I should have asked for Core's blessing before renaming the channel 15:20:30 huh? 15:20:50 because it's in the monero namespace? 15:21:02 no because it previously used the MCW name 15:21:21 which is theirs now 15:22:16 lol 15:22:24 I just read the backlog. Jeez that's depressing. I saw a lot of wrong claims and wrong assumptions. I really hope this mess helped people to understand transparency is extremely necessary when it's about Monero communities. 15:22:32 come on guest 15:22:52 yes transparency 15:22:54 am i guest again? 15:23:11 technically core owns all monero communities 15:23:18 just teasing but 15:23:28 Guest72945: please be transparent and change your nick 15:23:34 :-P 15:23:53 dsc_: matrix just doesn't agree with erciccione's nick 15:23:59 always changes it to guest for him lol 15:24:02 do you guys remember back in like 2016 when people were upset about not being able to change bitcoin? 15:24:05 yeah it seems to happen at least 6 times a day 15:24:28 what made monero different was the intention and precedent to continuously change when faced with something better, new, more correct 15:24:39 hard forks 15:24:43 etc 15:24:50 bitcoin can't ever hardfork again, because those abandoned old bitcoin knots 0.8.0.0 nodes running in someone's basement will break 15:25:06 And i agree, handing over the community to core it's something that wasn't discussed or requested. Let's use that as a reminder that workgroups shouldn't be "owned" by who funded them, but to their own communities 15:25:07 damn matrix 15:25:15 but who even funded them 15:25:18 i funded shit 15:25:22 with my life even 15:25:39 but you're right, who can lay claim? 15:25:43 sorry, i meant "founded" 15:25:44 and who can pursue legal action? 15:25:57 well, technically, the community was not founded by anyone but me either 15:26:03 i remember #monero where we used to chat all the time 15:26:15 many new rooms were made back then 15:26:24 usually we were kicking someone out of #monero for talking nonsense 15:26:32 #monero-community *is* #monero basically 15:26:38 Nick should be fine now 15:26:52 i think a sense of comfort and transparency is something all members value and expected when such changes occur 15:26:53 the community can decide what they want 15:26:58 and that is scary to lots of parties 15:27:11 so we probably place bounds on what we think is possible to avoid the scary 15:27:30 the world right now - it's like it's owned by people other than the living 15:27:41 my main concern was that would become the case for monero too 15:27:50 other than communities 15:27:51 it's natural, isn;t it? 15:28:11 i think it's also sad that i risk my safety by saying this 15:28:24 and the community should think about what that means for its own future 15:28:26 the channel provided a sense of transparency so members can share input without a commitment,- this also serves in threat modeling 15:28:31 things like social discourse cooling are real 15:28:50 yes 15:29:10 fungible is the patron saint of monero 15:29:21 .,bbl 15:30:43 No idea what you're saying endogenic lol 15:30:55 endogenic hitting us with the bbl 15:31:05 then ask 15:31:10 usually when people want to know with humility 15:31:11 they're like 15:31:12 Idk what to ask about 15:31:18 ok 15:31:19 You mentioned like 100 things 15:31:21 you can take one sentence 15:31:23 and be like wtf does this mean 15:31:25 and eventually we'll get closer 15:31:25 that don't seem related to anything lol 15:31:31 that's natural at first 15:31:37 eventually the picture becomes visible 15:31:38 ? 15:31:45 Or just... be clear? 15:31:46 you have to familiarize yourself with some of the problems 15:31:55 i am being clear 15:32:08 y'all should decide for yourselves what your future will be 15:32:17 stop putting it in the hands of people who do it for you 15:32:23 that way lies bad times 15:33:30 i'm kinda making fun of what the community has become, somewhat 15:33:50 or what segmented people has made of the "community" 15:33:53 segmenting* 15:34:11 there was a time when criticism was welcomed and considered carefully as a survival risk 15:34:14 now we are comfortable with our survival 15:34:16 but ask yourselves why. 15:35:34 it's because things are not so much operated by the community anymore 15:35:50 if that's not the case, turn this channel over to me 15:36:12 You speak in riddles to jump to conclusions 15:36:17 no 15:36:22 i speak in riddles to protect myself 15:36:25 not that htey are riddles 15:36:27 just puzzle pieces 15:36:32 anyway, you dont care about me 15:36:34 and i know it 15:36:37 why should i risk my life for you 15:36:40 .bbl ! 15:36:40 As a matter of fact it sounds like you have an actually understood or read all of the details yet so I will give you some more timei, bbl 15:36:43 lol 15:50:41 I think it's true that #monero-community has become #monero. 15:51:01 dsc_: the reason this channel has so much drama is because it's the most accessible workgroup. 15:51:28 -dev and -gui are not accessible to the common person. I mean, they can freely join sure, but the average person will feel lost and quickly leave. 15:52:00 All it takes to be active in -community is to have an opinion. So we have way more people. More people = more variance in opinion = more drama. 15:52:20 It's not necessarily because the other workgroups are better at "shutting shit down". 15:54:32 ErCiccione[m]: it's not necessarily true that workgroups don't belong to the one who founded them. It depends on the expectation set in the beginning. If a person starts a workgroup and makes it very clear that they're BDFL of it, then that is what will be. It belongs to the founder. People may not contribute as a result, but that's what it is. 15:55:00 Though I think, at least in this community, the default (especially if intentions are not explicitly communicated) is that it will belong to the people. 15:55:21 And the founder can't come in retroactively and say "oh it was my intention for it to be mine all along" 15:56:05 i vote for rehrar to be monero dictator 15:56:08 yeah, it's true that some workgroups are structured *very* differently, eg. the Vulnerability Response Workgroup 15:57:36 rehrar: I see your point, but cannot really be called community in that case IMO and as you said, must be clear from the beginning. I agree this workgroup belong to the people, but the recent events showed that that wasn't the case before 15:59:15 It's always belonged to the people, but there were certain people driving the vast majority of work, who wanted to see some changes. 15:59:52 Sure, some workgroups cannot be orizzontal by their own nature, as pony said, but i would have never thought it was the case for the MCW. man, i was proved wrong :P 16:00:25 That obviously hasn't been the smoothest transition, but there's no truth to saying that anyone "controlled" MCW, just that they were the leaders in actually doing work and driving efforts. 16:00:50 i vote for rehrar to be monero dictator <> +1 16:01:57 sethsimmons: I really don't want to start the discussion again. But i really don't see how belonging to the people can mean that a small group of people decide the future of the workgroup in private and then decide its future. It cannot "belong to the people" if "the people" have no part in the play 16:02:22 The people spoke out against the desired changes by the leaders, and so the leaders left to start something else 16:02:28 So the people retained control 16:03:07 And just like with all rough consensus things got messy 16:03:18 And some things were done poorly, some hurtful things were said, etc. 16:03:40 When there is no hierarchy or order these things do happen, which is shitty, but we have to find the best way to work around them and move past them. 16:03:51 Well. If you want to pass a community riot and an almost split as people speaking out against the proposals of the leaders, so be it. But that wasn't the case 16:04:04 I really don't agree with the way you are picturing what happened 16:04:37 what are we fighting about now 16:04:55 When there is no hierarchy or order these things do happen, <- What? There was a clear hierarchy. 16:05:07 Yeah Idk how else to interpret it so I'll just leave good enough alone. 16:05:30 If there was a clear hierarchy things would have just happened as they wanted and the community would have fallen in line 16:06:02 The vocal portions of this community that spoke out strongly made it clear there was no hierarchy, and brought into the light all the issues that come along with no clear hierarchy/ownership 16:06:06 A workgroup named "community" is always going to be messy because it has no defined goal and everyone is by default a member of the community 16:06:25 sethsimmons: also, bear in mind that a lot of the responsibilities that were taken on by said individuals were taken on by themselves, not asked of them by the community. for instance, personally I couldn't care for a blockfolio, a Twitter, telegram channels, or r/monerocommunity. 16:06:35 Whereas building and maintaining platforms/spaces seems much more directional 16:07:00 Of course, but those are important vectors for building/expanding community 16:07:05 So I'm not sure I could imagine us just ignoring them 16:07:06 otoh it's good that we're going through this now, and can figure out a good path forward, than when Monero much larger 16:07:09 sethsimmons: Now i really think you are just twisting what happened or you have a distorted idea of the events. I won't be part of it. 16:07:13 sethsimmons: I am not even certain why this channel exists, instead of just having #monero 16:07:21 This "build it and they will come" mentality makes no sense to me. 16:07:27 Absolutely! 16:07:35 luigi1111w: dunno, but i got my popcorn on hand 16:07:45 Because we want a concerted effort around building the community? 16:07:57 shillo put me in coach, I can take him 16:08:09 It's specifically for efforts around building/expanding community 16:08:14 #monero is just general Monero chat 16:08:20 sethsimmons: sure, but why not in the main #monero channel? Like what is that channel for so? 16:08:23 It makes little sense 16:08:33 Thats for general Monero chat? 16:08:37 This is for focused efforts? 16:08:42 Lol 16:08:43 Im not sure the disconnect 16:08:49 #monero is a catch-all 16:08:55 fluffypony> otoh it's good that we're going through this now, and can figure out a good path forward, than when Monero much larger <= I knew you were just a dirty Monero pumper 16:08:57 This is for specific efforts like Coffee Chat, MCW, etc. 16:09:15 luigi1111w: I resent that, I bathe at least once a month 16:09:24 I didn't mean to announce this so soon, but I'm going to be transferring the YT channel to the Monero Core team. I hate to do this, but I understand the arguments in favor of doing this. I will no longer administer this channel and I don't expect to contribute new efforts towards it 16:10:04 It's a huge loss to the channel and community to lose your efforts around this. 16:10:07 sgp_: nobody asked that NOT to happen. People asked why it happens without discussing it first!! 16:10:15 lol fluffypony 16:10:57 https://cryptobriefing.com/roger-ver-tells-bitcoin-cash-faction-buy-dash/ 16:11:04 inb4 "and if you don't like it, you can buy Dash" 16:11:07 sgp_: I always thought it was your personal channel anyway, but maybe that was the error in the first place (on everyones parts, not yours) 16:11:52 I think after all this I need to take a step back from Monero as a whole. Doesn't mean I'll be gone forever or that I won't contribute at all, but I just don't have it in me to champion completely starting fresh at the moment 16:12:45 sgp_: honestly I think that going overboard. It actually hasn't been that much drama! It could have been solved in one meeting/chat 16:12:48 I just have really grown to dislike the way my efforts are being used and I often do not agree with the rest of the community here 16:12:58 It's the fact there wasn't a meeting is the problem!! 16:13:05 (that's how I see it anyway) 16:13:25 gg community 16:14:13 sgp_: can we get you to sign a non-release clause in case of ZCash advances? 16:14:34 lololol 16:14:38 as far as I understand, Monero Space will still be a thing, and when I feel less down I'll probably start contributing there 16:15:34 xmrscott: please don't weaponize people's choices against the community. That's really not a nice move. 16:16:26 Sigh... Sad couple of weeks for the community. 16:16:26 Hopefully we can learn from this and grow stronger. 16:17:43 Personally. Sadden me to see an hear sgp's so down, knowing all he has done for the community, but let's be clear. This matter was handled very poorly by the leaders of this workgroup. If that would have been handled different, probably we wouldn't have been in this situation. So, let's nopt weaponize the situation against the workgroup, that's just an asshole move. Hate me as much as you want for saying this, 16:17:43 but that's what i think. 16:19:50 I've weaponized nothing. Simply commenting it's the end of a chapter in -community, and if nothing else it was fun for me. 16:20:53 If that's what the passive aggressive "gg community" means for you, sure. Ok. 16:21:25 why all the "I'm leaving, it was great, goodbye all" 16:21:28 ? 16:21:47 Literally all that happened was we didn't start an LLC! 16:22:04 midipoet: no it's not that simple, as has been spoken out a lot. 16:22:23 Because y'all have trust issues with Justin if I were to put it plainly 16:22:32 The current big pushers of things were tired of the status quo. Too much strain on accounting, and being held back in certain areas. 16:22:59 They proposed a way forward, it wasn't well received (which is fine). Then they made a different way forward. It was still received less than positively (which is also fine). 16:23:22 So going the status quo would be a lose for them, and going this way has some people mad at them for different things. Another lose. 16:23:28 I'm not surprised some people want to take a step back. 16:23:58 It's not just 'we didn't start an LLC'. The LLC represented ways for people to break away from the exhausting status quo. 16:24:03 Because y'all have trust issues with Justin if I were to put it plainly <- How we went from "decisions were made without involving the community" to "you don't trust justin" it's beyond me O_O 16:24:25 Thats a great summary, thanks rehrar 16:25:07 People clearly stated they would rather Core control the YT than Justin or his LLC 16:25:15 xmrscott[m]: it wasn't distrust in the people, it was distrust in the proposed method and I am pretty sure you know this. For instance if the status quo had continued everything would have been fine as regards trust. 16:25:17 A lot of the arguments centered around "But what if Justin monetizes the video. Core can do no wrong". Let's not sweep that under the rug 16:25:18 Even though Justin has done almost everything for that channel. 16:25:39 That was certainly more like distrusting justin/trusting core more, in spite of what he has done. 16:25:47 xmrscott[m]: yes, I see this also. 16:25:57 Yeah, thats probably relatively true 16:26:00 People clearly stated they would rather Core control the YT than Justin or his LLC <- i would like to have a quote from these "people". I don't remember anybody asking core to control the channel. 16:26:08 Some people seemed to distrust Justin but not all 16:26:11 but another set of arguments revolved around the fact that many contributors didn't contribute their content for it to be primarily stewarded by an LLC. 16:26:16 both would lead to the same outcome 16:26:20 rehrar: yes. And all that happened was that the community (the supposed beneficiaries of the LLC) rejected that proposal. 16:26:26 sethsimmons: Who are these people? 16:26:30 and honestly, I think people should have been arguing the one I said rather than "Justin could monetize" 16:26:34 You have the same backlog I do, I've spent enough time explaining all this already lol 16:26:39 I would like quotes, not generic "people asked that" 16:27:11 sethsimmons: No, you are making a claim without baking it up with any prove. I don't recall anybody asking what you say "people" were asking. Either back up your claim or withdraw it 16:27:18 *proof 16:27:24 ErCiccione[m]: this is slightly disingenuous though. Saying that nobody asked for core to take control of the channel. If the LLC doesn't control it because people don't want them to, it will de facto mean it goes to core. 16:27:31 Youtube is not decentralized. SOMEBODY has to hold the account. 16:27:58 So if people say they don't want the LLC to hold the YouTube. It de facto means it goes to core, ESPECIALLY if no other person is suggested. 16:28:01 Here yo go 16:28:41 I can provide more if you'd like from other people. But let's not play intellectually dumb here; I know y'all have read the reddit thread and most of the IRC backlog 16:28:59 This ^ 16:29:01 so yes, saying they don't want the LLC to control the youtube channel = saying they trust core more than the new LLC. Which is fine if that's your position, but the position should be owned up to. 16:29:04 rehrar: Why so? The first draft of the announcement justin and nm90 made said the channel was being given to you, as you opened it. The final version which was published said "core" instead. IMO, the first oiption would have made more sense. Who created the channel is moderating it 16:29:07 It was only hinted at above that people wanted it to be owned by Core 16:29:14 But the alternative is that it is owned by core 16:29:28 So any suggestion that Justin/LLC not own it is that Core own it, and no one has mentioned another alternative. 16:29:39 Rehrar is acting for core? 16:29:44 rehrar = core here 16:29:54 So if rehrar takes over channel, core takes over channel 16:29:54 etc etc 16:29:55 ErCiccione[m]: I've come to realize that because of my position, it's impossible for me to act and own something as an individual in this community. 16:30:04 Hence my reddit post a few days ago. 16:30:28 If I do literally anything as an individual, it will be misconstrued as core involvement and approval. Kinda sucks, but that's the way it is. 16:30:53 This ErCiccione ^ 16:30:58 rehrar: And i understand that, but still. Do you see my point? It's different to say: "the channel will be moderated by rehrar" and "the channel will be moderated by rehrar in behalf of core". 16:31:28 They mean the same thing? 16:31:31 rehrar is acting on behalf of core 16:31:36 I don't understand the distinction here 16:31:55 rehrar specifically asked that this workgroup be run by Core, not him. It's why I needed to change the wording of what would have originally been a joint release about us stepping down 16:31:58 hence the change in the announcement to make it more clear for everyone. We took my name off and put core for more transparency. Because some people would read it and when they found out core was controlling they would complain 16:32:05 "the announcement said rehrar!!!" 16:32:33 "9:50:42 AM I think it's true that #monero-community has become #monero." 16:32:39 not quite what i want to say 16:32:51 endogenic: well it's true regardless 16:32:57 that you thinkso 16:33:12 We're on another topic now endogenic , can we focus on this for now and talk about the other later? 16:33:19 ye 16:33:33 you can do or haveanything you want...is entire point seth :) 16:33:34 I think my point is being missed here. I do understand the difference. I just say that in my opinion would have made more sense to give rehrar the channel instead of core, but i totally understand why he preferred to hand it over to core. I just don't think that that fit with "the community asked to hand it to core", because that's simply not true. 16:33:38 the channel is whatever 16:34:36 what even is core anyway 16:34:37 And reguardless, personally, i do trust core more than an LLC. Doesn't matter who run it. 16:34:47 it was a specific set of ppl once 16:34:56 with specific problems mandating its role 16:35:09 rehrar = core, so handing off to rehrar would be core 16:35:09 i am too early 16:35:11 Thats what we're all trying to say 16:35:32 they are interchangeable, so if Justin/LLC does not own it, rehrar/core own it 16:35:55 sethsimmons: "I just say that in my opinion would have made more sense to give rehrar the channel instead of core, but i totally understand why he preferred to hand it over to core. I just don't think that that fit with "the community asked to hand it to core", because that's simply not true." 16:36:17 The community did ask for that 16:36:20 you are missing the fact that rehrar also created the channel before rappresenting core 16:36:23 By asking for it not to be under Justin/LLC 16:36:26 alright, whatever 16:36:32 I don't understand 16:37:15 If the vocal people here say "Justin/LLC shouldn't own the channel" and Justin wants to retain ownership/stewardship of the channel, what choice does he have? 16:37:24 Hand it to core or do a hostile takeover 16:37:38 Or maybe some in-between, which was obviously not chosen 16:37:47 He handed it to core, the only other clear alternative 16:38:02 Because he does not want to continue running it for MCW instead of focusing on what he sees as important 16:38:09 He's made that clear. 16:38:32 what blows my mind 16:38:39 I think there could have been a middle ground 16:38:42 But I digress 16:39:00 is that Justin has not only decided to start his own thing (which solves the initial problem), and decided to give up the Youtube (which solves this discussion) 16:39:06 and then said he was going to take a step back 16:39:17 and he's STILL RECEIVING FLAK right now 16:39:25 Ding ding 16:39:25 yup 🙂 16:39:27 he made the decisions that have the outcomes people want 16:39:33 leave it alone guys 16:40:41 even if you're argument is that "it's not about the outcomes themselves, but they way they were come to privately without discussion" 16:40:47 well, he's not a leader of this workgroup anymore 16:40:54 I hope it's at least clear that i am not criticising justin for these choices. Which i told him in private and in public that i respect and agree with. Especially handing over the youtube channel, which i consider a mature choice that deserves respect 16:40:57 so that also doesn't really need to be discussed further, does it? 16:41:17 can we still martyr him pls 16:41:45 So i really hope nobody thought i was bashing justing with any of my points 16:41:59 people will twist your words and think all kinds of things 16:42:08 Stop endogenic. 16:42:09 for me the discussion was finished when the board of the LLC decided to create an own workgroup 16:42:12 no? 16:42:21 It certainly came across as that, but I do think it wasn't your intent. 16:42:35 More just worried that this will have a long-term toll on him and the community will suffer because of it. 16:42:49 good 16:42:50 I agree ^ 16:42:58 that is a beautiful thought 16:43:01 I think few people know just how much work Justin has put in 16:43:03 He caved to all the demands/voices here, which I guess is what was wanted 16:43:11 this ^ 16:43:12 endogenic: wtf dude? 16:43:19 wtf about what 16:43:22 stop stirring trouble 16:43:34 I really don't see how that's possible. But if that's the case, i apologize with justin. If i jumped in this conversation is because i had the feeling "history was being rewritten" and justin's step back was being weaponized against this workgroup 16:43:35 Take the rambling elsewhere please endogenic :) 16:43:40 We're in the middle of an important discussion. 16:43:42 what rambling 16:43:45 i agreed withyou 16:43:57 LOL 16:44:09 I am not trying to rewrite history, so hopefully thats not how it came across. 16:44:19 Just sharing my genuine understanding of the situation, for better or worse. 16:44:28 If I'm way off from reality I apologize. 16:44:33 oh 16:44:34 Personally i even asked sgp_ in private to rethink his step back from the community. he thinks that's the best choice for him, so that's where the discussion ends 16:44:34 ok 16:44:50 alright, so I think we done with this then. 16:44:51 *from the community = from the workgroup 16:44:56 Good to hear it, but its likely too late for that. Hopefully a break will do him well. 16:44:58 Let's take a breather from this conversation as a whole. 16:45:07 Please lol... 16:45:15 so this chatroom is for the workgroup? 16:45:20 sure 16:45:22 or for community discussions? 16:45:26 cause they conflict 16:45:28 eventually 16:45:32 that's true 16:45:36 yayyy 16:45:38 finally 16:45:44 one down 16:45:48 but I guess we need to define what the new workgroup is 16:45:51 this one 16:45:54 not the new started one 16:45:58 There is no new workgroup atm 16:46:01 Oh yeah 16:46:04 MCW 16:46:06 yes 16:46:10 A lot to figure out now. 16:46:17 we need to define what the new MCW is before we can say if these things actually conflict 16:46:23 no... 16:46:26 that is the conflict 16:46:28 because if the new goal is community discussions, then it doesn't conflict :D 16:46:33 well 16:46:37 what if soneone changes the goal 16:46:38 bam 16:46:41 conflict 16:46:57 wtf even is a workgroup 16:47:11 nope. that part is defined. There's a blog post somewher.e 16:47:22 nope 16:47:25 yep 16:47:30 oh ik 16:47:31 (oof! Diego with the comebacks) 16:47:32 ok 16:47:42 i'm convinced 16:47:44 :) 16:47:47 lol! 16:48:10 also when is the rap battle 16:48:15 time to rappresent 16:48:29 sooo many things rhyme w monero 16:49:30 wownero 16:50:04 what rhymes w workgroup? 16:50:20 burnt soup 16:50:36 jeez you're good at this 16:51:23 dsc_: did warn you 16:51:37 I'm re-reading my messages here and i really cannot understand how my comments came over as bashing sgp_. I feel like when jay leno said in tv "please don't blame conan for what's happening" (when leno stole conoan's place at the late show) :P. Anyway, i hope it's clear now 16:52:43 are you all doing the coffee chat Saturday? or should I remove that from the calendar? 16:53:14 I don't feel that we were attacking Justin or even giving flak, either. The problem was initially over a YT channel whose name got changed by the owner, and people were surprised. 16:53:34 sgp_: O__O 16:53:38 no 16:53:43 sgp_: well there is something to talk about on the coffee chat! 16:53:44 I'm not prepared. I'd have to reschedule. 16:54:04 oh it's only Wednesday. 16:54:05 monero talk did ask for an episode there...I declined. 16:54:15 I thought it was like Friday or something. Goodness, time doesn't mean anything anymore in the pandemic. 16:54:25 okay removed 16:54:26 i warned ya 16:54:29 sure, that's fine. 17:02:33 I don't feel that we were attacking Justin or even giving flak, either. The problem was initially over a YT channel whose name got changed by the owner, and people were surprised. -> i never referred to that to my comments tho, so i'm even more surprised my words were perceived as some perceived them. Whatever. 17:03:30 waiting for sgp to go full gmaxwell-on-reddit 17:10:55 sgp_ could you confirm you read my PM? Just to make sure it's not matrix freaking out 17:58:22 Sgp_ is carrying a heavy load right now. He has given countless time and energy into Monero and into cultivating a community that supports it. Just because he went about things differently than others might doesn’t mean he is a bad person. It is easy to cast opinions about someone who is having to make decisions. It is much harder to be the person making those decisions. Let’s all keep that in mind please. 17:59:29 Justin when you are feeling like getting involved in Monero again you will be welcomed with open arms. Hopefully you can find some valuable leadership lessons in all this and use it develop your own leadership style as life goes on. We are all always learning. 18:01:45 +1. I agree with all of that ^ 18:01:57 endogenic, what you don't realize is that all mods at /r/cryptocurrency are secretly bitcoin maximalists that have had blockstream satellite control chips implanted in their cerbral cortex and are actively working towards the destruction of all inferior so-called cryptocurrencies 18:02:08 ERROR 18:02:08 you may have won this battle, but the war is only beginning 18:02:09 DOES NOT COMPUTE 18:02:15 REPLACE CHIP ASAP 18:06:38 anyway story is always the inverse 18:09:07 in that case truly is - I am probably most "maximalist" mod at /r/cc 18:09:19 and here I am and also have launched meme shitcoin 18:10:23 i think it would be cool if the community considered how to defend the people who defend the project 18:11:17 we put a lot of time and effort into growth but should take it slow and make sure we do it in a manner that cant just be torn down later 18:11:35 this might sound a little too vague but how many people can we afford to demotivate and discourage with personal costs? 18:11:49 eventually monero will run out of social capital - go ahead and deny it lol 18:11:50 laugh at that 18:12:04 but i know people in the "real world" who dislike monero 18:12:08 in the past we laughed at that 18:12:10 "oh we'll show 'em" 18:12:25 but they know what it's about now. it should be the case that people can dedicate themselves to monero 18:12:31 I think just letting go of the "we" is the way forward 18:12:39 i don't agree 18:12:47 we is an useful abstraction 18:12:52 because that can be overapplied into a "there should be no 'we'" 18:12:56 group of individuals with aligned goals and ideals 18:12:58 rather than "let's be open about what 'we' is as a big tent" 18:13:33 but i know people in the "real world" who dislike monero --> for what reason(s) ? 18:13:35 it's just laughable to me we're so preoccupied with meaningless internal politics 18:13:41 be cause we're arrogant as f 18:13:44 Protect your own private property and the initiatives you have done for the community. Monero is permissionless. Volunteering is the highest private exchangeable asset we have as individuals. I just wanted to say this. Love you brethers. 18:13:56 "meaningless internal politics" lol 18:13:58 and we're blind 18:14:03 we're so, so blind 18:14:07 on one hand we try outreach 18:14:10 This is crucial to sort out and learn from before we grow. 18:14:13 meanwhile we act like a bunch of children 18:14:14 ok, i'm beginning to understand why jwinterm was having troubles with "we" 18:14:17 :p 18:14:20 None of this has been meaningless, and all started for a good reason. 18:14:39 none. all. 18:14:53 in 5 years no one will remember anything but the bad taste 18:15:01 that was a hard lesson to learn 18:15:06 and a person like me wont ever be welcome 18:15:12 so, you're welcome. 18:15:15 -xmr-pr- [meta] SarangNoether opened issue #501: Research meeting: 26 August 2020 @ 17:00 UTC 18:15:15 -xmr-pr- > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/501 18:15:27 Why wouldn't you be welcome 18:15:34 what is a "person like you" endogenic ? 18:15:35 Idk what you're talking about, again 18:15:36 truth is usually bitter 18:15:38 sounds bitter 18:16:01 yeah Im just muting this for a bit I have better things to do, more rambling 18:16:05 no one in the crumbling imperial court wanted to listen to laotzu 18:16:12 then he left and guess what happened to that dynasty? 18:16:14 endogenic: don't worry bb, you're always welcome :* 18:16:27 what happened to Athens after they killed the annoying gadfly Sorates? 18:16:43 what you accept has consequences 18:17:23 kayront, we are all we on this blessed day 18:17:42 jw gets it 18:18:06 i really don't find myself in the "we" if "we" are blind, arrogant, act like children, and find truth bitter 18:18:18 too bad 18:18:21 you are we 18:18:23 deal with it 18:18:31 borg style or nothing? 18:18:33 damn son 18:18:34 lol 18:18:35 kayront: i havent yet heard of your effect on the public perception of monero 18:18:48 the arrogance is that monero will remain relevant 18:18:58 our outreach attempts are a silly band-aid 18:19:05 what if everyone already knows about monero? 18:19:06 relevant or irrelevant? 18:19:08 what if they're scared of you guys? 18:19:40 endogenic: I can confirm that almost nobody knows about monero 18:19:47 i am in the habit of literally stopping strangers and discuss internet privacy with them endogenic 18:19:47 gotta define monero first nioc 18:19:49 including crypto 18:19:54 no one knows about monero, i can assure you 18:19:56 only teasing on that one 18:20:08 anyway, feel free to ignore what i say 18:20:13 proof is later 18:20:27 not so much ignore as to try to even understand where you're coming from 18:20:32 my chip is on the fritz anyway. i'm sure i'll stop talking nonsense when i get it fixed 18:20:40 monero is what gave birth to the one true coin, mewownero 18:22:40 i know from experience that the average joe/jane on the street really has no clue about monero, so it also follows that they are not avoiding monero because they're scared of "us". furthermore that idea is extremely alien, what's there to be scared about? I can't even tell if you're being serious 18:22:47 they dont care about monero yet 18:22:50 it means nothing to them 18:22:51 use cash, etc 18:23:03 but the people who know anything about cryptocurrencies heard about monero 18:23:06 lots of VCs have too 18:23:15 and what is to be scared of? 18:23:26 no one can comfortably dedicate themselves to this project 18:23:38 the masses are easily whipped up by lies 18:23:40 this is a natural thing 18:23:50 and impossible to reverse, generally 18:23:51 it's been my experience that even in cryptocurrency circles most people don't understand the need for monero (or something like monero) 18:23:53 which is unfortunate 18:24:02 cloth that is died with ink can basically never be returned to its original state 18:24:05 but the masses don'y know about us 18:24:21 the culture and ideology are easy to corrupt 18:24:34 I suspect that's because almost no one actually *uses* crypto for payments. the fungibility problems and the lack of privacy (to say nothing of ridiculously high fees) become pretty obvious when you do 18:24:36 oh, just a little bit of authority as a decision-maker here 18:24:43 just a little bit of closed door decision making 18:24:45 just a little lie 18:24:52 people use it 18:24:57 and many more will, soon 18:25:01 but it doesn't have to be monero 18:25:12 it doesn't, but it would be wise if it was 18:25:26 well you have to maintain the safety of the project for that 18:25:40 true for any crypto project 18:25:48 i remember back in the day lots of people used to come and use monero to gain attention for themselves 18:25:51 one religious dude for example back in the day 18:25:57 we knew clearly they were being silly 18:26:03 nowadays the line is not so clear 18:26:07 *that* is the problem 18:26:09 the church of monero guy? 18:26:12 nah 18:26:22 but good example 18:26:27 he came closer 18:26:36 well in the beginning i thought it was a good idea 18:26:38 allah is doing guy? 18:26:46 remember that this project is a magnet for attacks 18:26:49 pretty much anything good is 18:26:53 use the angle of religious freedom to prevent persecution on religious grounds ("we believe in private money") 18:26:57 we're resilient as f because we anticipated many of them 18:27:00 but later on it seemed to assume truly cultish proportions 18:27:00 h/t to the OGs 18:27:05 but there are some we don't expect 18:27:17 gotta bounce 18:27:20 .bbl 18:27:20 don't worry 18:27:23 lol 18:27:56 later endogenic 19:18:23 kayront: the tech in Monero is well respected all the way up to the "top". That's how I see it 19:19:49 States are well aware of the issues, but it is just not clear the potential impact of the trade-offs 19:33:28 By the way I don't think web of trust is a bad model 19:33:32 About my comments before 19:40:46 endogenic: web of trust is interesting on a number of levels, imo 19:40:49 midipoet: we gotta get them on monero too 19:41:00 cake wallet for every regulator today! 19:41:16 +1 19:41:16 kayront: they have their own shit to worry about. 19:41:23 lol 19:41:35 no doubt, in which case then plz leave our shit alone 19:41:36 :p 19:41:42 ha! 19:41:49 I think that Monero has to solve the conflict 19:41:56 if you're gonna mess with it, you should understand it 19:42:14 who knows how many people have not allocated capital in Monero because of regulatory risk? 19:42:21 In other words there has to not be a conflict of interest with any party except for people who want to mis state history 19:42:22 how many businesses might be afraid to list it as payment option 19:42:23 endogenic: yeah, I agree 19:42:55 kayront: the thing is Monero isn't perfect either 19:43:15 We have both scaling and usability issues 19:43:25 true 19:43:30 this is fine™ 19:43:52 I think the next 12 months are going to be VERY interesting 19:44:18 how so ? 19:44:20 what scaling issues? 19:44:24 tx size? 19:44:29 you know what has more usability issues than monero? 19:44:36 my current isp 19:45:02 my mother couldn't use Monero 19:45:03 and what usability issues ? not apps but in the protocol 19:45:11 midipoet cant she use mymonero? 19:45:16 Lol 19:45:17 aside from change delays for ex 19:45:17 No 19:45:20 why? 19:45:30 endogenic: could monero survive and thrive on 10000 tx/s globally? 19:45:33 cause he plastic card is easier 19:45:37 *her 19:45:37 afaik, the answer is no 19:45:42 kayront: monero already thrives 19:45:47 wen monero card 19:45:58 surviving and thriving on 10k tx/s does not imply it doesn't thrive now endogenic 19:45:58 :p 19:46:04 niocbrrrrrr: that's the right question 19:46:13 as for usability issues, midipoet is right. you have to think about this from an average person pov 19:46:20 it's the apps that count there 19:46:24 midipoet that's a vendor adoption issue. 19:46:28 tap phone on pad 19:46:29 ding 19:46:32 or dont 19:46:34 scan code 19:46:54 that's still not as easy as a card 19:47:13 yes, think of us old people 19:47:21 side note, i don't think "my granny couldn't use xmr" is necessarily a bad thing. does granny do mobile banking also ? if the answer is not, she's probably better off not even knowing about monero 19:47:28 midipoet replace that with card 19:47:32 mymonero could make one easy 19:47:36 welll 19:47:38 but any younger person who's done online banking / mobile app banking should not have too much of a problem understanding a monero wallet 19:47:41 sure 19:47:47 if they can't, i say that's a design fault 19:47:53 exactly 19:47:55 bank website 19:48:04 kayront: this is true it's a generational thing. But then how big is our chain by then? 19:48:07 it's vendor afoption 19:48:20 midipoet lol exactly 19:48:23 that's a fun fermi problem 19:48:26 i wrote about this recently yet, but it's a draft 19:48:32 oh snap 19:48:34 just took me 30 min to get a code so that I could log into my bank online lol 19:48:41 i was waiting for some people to give their opinion, and they did, but then I wrote another post about cake wallet today 19:48:48 niocbrrrrrr: be your own bank noob 19:48:49 so i«'m waiting a day or two to publish this other post 19:48:57 endogenic: imma trying 19:49:02 there is no try 19:49:04 recently yet -> recently actually (not sure what happened there, lol) 19:49:05 only mymonero 19:49:58 midipoet: pretty big, probably. i gave the 10k tx/s as an extreme example of a moneroified world, but i don't think that'll happen in a day or a month 19:50:11 perhaps i am optimistic, but I think solutions will emerge as we face those challenges 19:50:37 for the foreseeable future it seems what exists now (in terms of scaling) would tolerate at least a few orders of magnitude, but maybe someone more knowledgeable on the matter could chime in 19:51:09 orders of man (of growth in txs)* 19:51:13 mag*. jesus. :p 19:52:04 I think we should view Monero as a vehicle towards a better future 19:52:16 As opposed to "the solution" 19:52:19 YES 19:52:25 it's *a* solution 19:52:27 to a very real problem 19:52:33 I agree 19:52:36 arguably *the* best solution we have so far 19:52:41 Agree 19:53:05 Well, plastic cards are good 19:53:29 monroecard™ 19:53:43 speaking of monero card, has anyone tried bitsacard.com? 19:54:07 presumably it can be topped up with monteros and instantly converted to EUR, available on debit card immediatly 19:54:11 immediately* 19:55:24 i'd prefer not to (surveillance point) in general, but knowledge of how to do this (in a legit way, whether I like the implications or not (KYC)) is probably useful for many people who come to see why of monero and already have accounts in exchanges etc (so they are fine giving out KYC) 19:55:53 it's a pretty useful magic power to have, turn monteros into euro shitcoin for practical life purposes 19:56:16 until the landlord takes monero directly and the supermarket as well 19:59:50 exactly 20:00:06 suppose what you tap is a card anyway 20:00:26 look at updates instantly on your phone .. even via push 20:00:36 anonymizing that is the hard part 20:00:51 and that's even ok 20:07:00 bitsacard.com 20:07:07 Totally Safe!! 20:07:09 Lol 20:07:33 Looks pretty though 20:09:29 https://blog.bitsacard.com/en/ 20:18:24 yeah, i read/heard about them some time ago 20:18:49 was impressed that in europe there was someone seemingly legit accepting xmr to add credit to an eur debit card 20:19:45 that's part of the holy trinity: how to get in, how to get out, how to hodl 20:20:02 kayront: can you send XMR to them? 20:20:07 yes midipoet 20:20:22 you send them XMR to an address generated by the app, you get EUR in your card immediately (well, some confirmations I imagine) 20:20:35 i'm not sure if it's always the same XMR address (it probably should be) - I've never used bitsa myself 20:20:41 the app = their mobile app 20:21:42 do you know who is behind it? 20:21:46 monero is the perfect tool for this of course, because not only can you topup with privacy and without linking on-chain funds with the card, but also because if they played it right, you can just add your bitsa xmr address to the address book, and topup your bitsa visa card at any time from your monroe wallet 20:21:48 which is pretty neat 20:22:24 no, but I do recall having been left with the impression that while apparently not reg'd in spain, the owners seem to be spanish 20:22:31 i don't recall what left that impression tho 20:23:27 https://blog.bitsacard.com/en/bitsa-prepaid-multicards/ 20:23:30 oh, nice, they added this 20:23:40 last I checked it was not possible to have >1 virtual visa 20:23:51 that no longer seems to be the case, ditto for physical cards 20:23:58 * kayront slowly morphs into bitsa salesman 20:23:59 lol 20:25:18 seriously tho, very cool product, assuming it works as advertised 20:29:47 when monero physical notes tho 20:29:49 4srs 20:40:38 kayront: they are registered in Monaco 20:40:47 The app works 20:40:55 Have downloaded and provided KYC 20:41:01 Will update when I know more 20:41:10 It's not obvious what options I have 20:41:27 Regarding "topping up" 20:50:00 keep us posted midipoet! 20:50:22 how did the KYC work? iirc they told me it was scan of passport/id only, no address needed 20:50:25 is that accurate? 20:50:36 no selfie right? just the thought. 20:50:42 what am i, 16 20:50:42 lol 20:52:04 standard KYC photo ID and address 20:55:49 did you need to take a pic of a bill or smt? 20:56:55 midipoet: re unclear which options to load card - https://blog.bitsacard.com/en/reload-bitsa-card-with-monero-xmr/ 20:57:24 midipoet: Interestingly, they have XMR supported since only six months 20:58:11 also, more generically: https://blog.bitsacard.com/en/top-up-bitsa-with-cryptocurrencies/ 20:58:17 seems easy enough 20:59:48 huh. How did this go so under the radar? 21:00:33 dEBRUYNE: have you used the card/company? 21:01:00 dunno midipoet, but it's partially on me 21:01:16 i could swear i wrote about the card before, but a quick grep on the blog directory says not 21:02:07 for those willing to undergo KYC I think - again, if it works exactly as advertised (no reason to believe it doesn't) - this is a pretty cool tool 21:02:55 can't pay for whatever in monero directly (yet?), fine, the next best bet beyond going all wololo on the shopkeeper is loading a visa card with monroes at your leisure 21:02:55 midipoet: No, never heard of them 21:03:06 Started googling after you mentioned them and saw news from February about a Monero addition 21:03:21 funny. 21:03:42 i've tried going wololo on shopkeepers. it doesn't seem to work, btw 21:03:43 :p 21:04:12 they are sending me emails in Spanish...so a few teething problems. 21:04:28 told ya there were tapas involved in this 21:04:35 LOL 21:05:46 one thing i remember is missing (imo, anyway) is temporary virtual cards. like those you can use to pay only once, or can create one with limited validity and/or maximum spend € 21:06:05 they supported only 1, and apparently now is 4 .. and 4 is better than 1, but it's a different use case 21:06:34 but anyway, minor detail. transform monroes into euros instantly. hot. 21:07:28 card has no balance. load up monerujo or cake, make a transfer to bitsa xmr address associated with your card (presumably it never changes; midipoet could you confirm this detail?), seconds or minutes later, can go to the ATM and withdraw cash in local currency 21:07:38 me likes 21:08:05 * kayront finishes transformation into bitsa salesman 21:11:56 Huh 21:12:03 Yeah. It seems so 21:12:36 are you topping up a virtual card? i don't think they do insta orbital drone delivery yet 21:15:53 kayront: hello bitsacard support, wen available in USA USA USA 21:16:10 I know the answer :) 21:16:29 as far as I can tell, I have not yet received my top up details 21:16:46 A physical card is €20 21:16:51 Virtual one is free 21:16:53 according to the screenshots on the posts linked above midipoet, there's a top-up button in the bitsa app? 21:17:02 and there allegedly you can select monroe 21:17:15 can the physical card also be paid with crypto? 21:17:22 I have a virtual one, but it's not allowing me access the "top up" function. Might just need admin check 21:17:26 On their side 21:17:41 i see 21:17:44 Yes, there is a Monero option 21:17:56 for paying the physical card? or topping up 21:17:59 I see it when I try and order a physical card 21:18:11 ah 21:18:19 but it then says account does not exist. 21:18:40 I assume they have to initiate the accounts their side. 21:18:47 So totally not safe at all 21:18:50 In any way 21:18:58 but hey ho 21:19:05 Its a start! 21:19:12 not safe in which sense? 21:19:27 oh I see 21:20:13 I only have to top up small amounts.... And they are obviously the custodians of whatever amount I send to them 21:20:22 makes sense 21:20:26 yes, of course 21:20:38 for a non-custodial solution, have a look at https://monolith.xyz 21:20:41 monero not supported, of course 21:20:46 but if renXMR were to become a thing.... 21:22:03 apocalypse resistant!! 21:22:05 i plan to write about this soon™ also, but it's things like monolith that make closer integration between monroe and ethereum stuff an interesting thing imo 21:22:20 probably a heretical opinion over here, but I think I'll be able to make a good point 21:22:23 we'll see :p 21:22:30 kayront: yeah I agree 21:23:59 86sorfCCrqLGagz4XmdW7WMTjQU3PQbS7DoNhr1pNCKG1iiTu2PcBDJBBr7LFqY7arNMsQJdffJZNN1U2Z8f8HAoRohU72z 21:24:11 donations for your bitsa? 21:24:19 0.0277028 XMR 21:24:23 I need that much 21:24:29 Send it!! 21:24:35 exact amount? 21:24:41 YES 21:24:47 i'll send it, holdon 21:25:29 sent 21:25:53 They even give you a timer 21:25:56 15mins 21:26:10 have to say, I am pretty damn impressed 21:27:03 good on one hand 21:27:11 on the other hand, if it has a timer, it can't be a "permanent bridge" ? 21:27:35 what I said before - save bitsa xmr address tied your card in addr book, and send monero there as you please 21:28:00 if it's not like that, then it requires going into the bitsa app to generate a topup request every time. not the end of the world, but needless friction in the case of monero, the addr is meant for reuse 21:28:09 did the tx register already midipoet ? 21:28:11 with bitsa 21:28:24 No 21:28:46 hmm, i got my change back already even 21:29:04 Oh it just arrived 21:29:10 Well f me 21:29:12 beautiful 21:29:20 what? COOPS? 21:29:22 COPS* ? 21:29:22 :D 21:29:43 "you have moneroj! now we know! to the gulag sir!" 21:29:46 i kid, i kid. what's up? 21:30:38 Was that the market rate though? 21:30:50 I bet you paid me way more than €2 21:31:06 they have to make their money somewhere... 21:31:08 dunno, i sent the exact amount you requested without even calculating 21:31:16 LOL 21:31:24 blind faith! 21:31:27 :P 21:32:21 >>> amount = 0.0277028 21:32:21 >>> xmreur = 77.18 21:32:21 >>> amount * xmreur 21:32:21 2.138102104 21:32:27 XMR/EUR from https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/monero 21:32:58 you got 2.0€? 21:33:09 yes 21:33:29 not bad 21:34:09 I do really like the disposable virtual cards 21:34:11 maybe i'm doing the maths wrong 21:34:15 That's pretty damn cool 21:34:16 but that's 7% difference 21:34:17 ? 21:34:27 6.5% or so 21:34:32 oh. 21:34:39 could be because of the very small value too 21:34:58 No. They set the rate... 21:35:18 i'm sure the rate isn't the market rate, as you said they gotta make money somewhere 21:35:22 but 6.5% is a bit steep :p 21:36:16 you can also send in XMR and then SEPA out 21:36:23 Which is interesting to say the least 21:36:31 yup 21:36:50 was the rate visible when you made the request midipoet ? 21:36:53 No 21:36:58 sneaky 21:37:00 Oh wait 21:37:34 midipoet: could you also confirm my thoughts on the "permanent bridge" above? 21:37:36 Yeah it is. 21:37:44 Powered by bitnovo 21:38:12 You can also set the XMR and it will give you the intended receiving € value 21:39:14 sorry, i didn't get that 21:39:33 is it always the same address then - would you get another 10 EUR if I sent the XMR equivalent of that now 21:40:04 I can set either intended XMR or € and it calculates it for me 21:40:37 yes but that's not the question. can you *reuse* the address ? 21:40:43 at any time, without going to bitsa app 21:40:43 I'll open a top up and see if it's the same address. 21:40:47 alright 21:41:38 8BBF7RB3YX2UAu2Sq9kNef7s3Sf6DdmiYXJT6oaBUUY15BbiD7XNmfbhTUzinVttG7fC4hhPuUjH9AdkTcT5i5RCLzeUKZ2 21:42:05 It's different 21:42:09 yup 21:42:14 well, something to suggest to them 21:42:16 it's not the end of the world 21:42:23 but adds needless friction imo 21:43:13 it's the difference between going into bitsa app, topup, select monero, get new address, switch to wallet, confirm address (paranoia) and amount (ditto) again at bitsa, back to monero wallet, send 21:43:22 and simply selecting the address from the addr book, and entering any amount 21:43:32 latter is the clear winner in my mind 21:43:40 I agree. 21:44:00 Though address reuse has downsides as well 21:44:12 Anyways, I will play around with it more tomorrow 21:44:23 And order the physical card 21:44:29 laterzzz 21:44:53 Oh and thanks for the XMR kayront !! 21:45:26 no problem man, i'll sponsor you again for the physical card if you want 21:45:35 you be the lab rat, i'll be the capitalist behind the screen 21:45:37 lmao 21:45:54 LOL 21:46:13 Its 20 euro. That's almost a dinner date ;-) 21:46:47 dress up baby 21:46:48 :p 21:49:14 86LDtETrURVBYpqwDcu6cmgABfCHWKFokSZzr1ibwoqtY4Qse4sqEwqA5eNzGTiZNTXMRDEzb98JEYFzKzzhyAxt3zgDRf5 21:49:40 0.27730991 XMR 21:49:47 for the card? 21:50:08 I'll have the lobster rissoto ;-) 21:50:22 that's what the app is saying, yeah 21:50:53 I have to say of all the apps I have used, this one is pretty slick. It's very intuitive... 21:51:23 sent 21:52:24 I have to say, this is the sort of cool stuff that Monero enables. no chance in hell I'd be doing this with some semi-random internet avatar if I was tying a "verified" bank account / paypal / etc 21:52:33 i know not everyone cares about that, but I do 21:53:00 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/rUIfI9n0/Screenshot_20200819-225126.png 21:53:26 They even give a customer care number!! 21:53:26 cool 21:53:45 the recharge reference seems a bit weird tho 21:53:51 looks like a date, but it's in 2019 21:53:56 maybe a coincidence 21:54:02 maybe a server with a seriously wrong clock set 21:54:03 lol 21:54:55 midipoet: do you want some dessert? :D 21:55:57 kayront: that's a great spot with the reference!! 21:56:29 It's just coincidence I would say 21:58:13 i know how we can tell! order another card! 21:58:14 :D 21:58:41 Hahhahaa 21:59:07 You know what's funny 21:59:20 It recognises the transaction almost immediately 21:59:22 you hear a bitsa drone out of your window? 21:59:26 oh. 21:59:26 :p 21:59:29 But it doesn't show up in the account for a while 22:00:13 kayront: if you just reuse an address for topping up you have no way of knowing the exact amount that you will receive on the card 22:01:13 niocbrrrrrr: yeah. You don't even know if it'll show up at all! 22:01:18 well, if the rate is fixed AND you trust them, you do 22:01:25 Lol 22:01:36 it might be off by a few cents tho 22:01:37 the app calculates so..... 22:01:53 yeah but i mean if you don't use their app (address reuse) 22:01:58 your wallet also estimates the EUR value of the XMR 22:02:04 midipoet: if it was set up to do so 22:02:21 it would be off by a few cents. if you know the rate skew bitsa offers, you can then guess pretty good how much ends up in the card 22:02:37 kayront: my cli doesn't estimate amounts 22:02:41 but that's a valid point. both ways should be supported i think 22:03:03 niocbrrrrrr: open a new tmux pane, run bc or python repl, and now it does 22:03:03 :D 22:03:34 sounds like greek to a potato 22:03:54 i meant just run the calculations manually 22:04:07 i imagine most users won't be using the cli to top-up anyway 22:04:16 (or for anything, really :p personally I use it too, it's just simpler) 22:05:32 I use it cause it's the first thing I learned 22:05:35 would have to learn to us egui or...... 22:05:47 use gui* 22:06:28 if you can use the cli, chances are you can use the gui 22:06:37 the reverse is not necessarily true 22:06:44 most ppl seem to dislike cli 22:06:48 in general, not monroe's specifically 22:06:59 when I tried a couple of years ago there were bugs that made it annoying 22:07:10 Monero has a GUI? 22:07:18 soon™ 22:07:26 ™™ 22:11:29 One part of me is really sad that bitsa doesn't allow me to show my balance in XMR 22:11:44 and then just spend it in a shop 22:12:15 But I suppose that's here nor there 22:18:23 niocbrrrrrr: you should try new goois 22:19:39 selsta: once I finish moving from my incompetent isp 22:20:52 .w goois 22:20:52 [WIKIPEDIA] Gooi | "The Gooi ([ət ˈxoːi]) is an area around Hilversum, in the centre of the Netherlands. It is a slightly hilly area characterised by its green landscape, its historical charm, the wealth of its inhabitants, and its villas. Het Gooi is known in the Netherlands as the home of the rich and famous...." | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gooi 22:21:27 it’s the old word for gui 22:22:36 ^-- i live there lol 22:22:43 well, very close to 22:22:48 lol 22:23:07 gooi is where all the rich folk live 22:23:14 all monereans want to be famous 22:23:37 :-P 22:47:02 niocbrrrrrr: closest we have is bitpay card. And it's not bad. 22:47:56 thx, will have to check it out 22:48:05 It only takes Bitcoin for top ups 22:48:16 But I just exchange to BTC using services and it's ezpz 22:48:30 It's the only way I can get paid in XMR and still survive. 22:49:04 nothing is easy here in New North Korea :) 22:50:09 Yo dEBRUYNE how do I make Revuo better? 22:50:14 More pictures of cute animals? 22:50:36 crossword puzzles 22:50:39 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/8cD0zuVV/orangutan.png 22:50:42 daily revuo! we need exponential growth 22:50:42 horoscope 22:50:45 Like this orangutan. 22:50:58 Ooooooh. Horoscopes would be hilarious. 22:51:12 Capricorns should sell today. Gemini should buy! 22:51:20 I would ask monerobux each time. 22:51:31 .buyorsell Cancer 22:51:31 Buy, buy, buy! 22:51:37 .buyorsell gemini 22:51:37 Buy, buy, buy! 22:51:47 .buyorsell Aquarius 22:51:47 Sell, sell, sell! 22:51:49 monerbux is best bux 22:52:13 Thoughts on orangutan selsta? 22:52:40 it can’t beat the fox 22:52:42 still cute 22:53:13 or monkey? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/cG9YyUaw/monero-monkey.png 22:53:27 What else is orange? 22:53:51 Toucan beaks 22:54:24 depends on the species 22:54:47 The Cheetos cheetah is orange. 22:54:54 Maybe we can get him to endorse Monero. 22:54:56 https://decent-userna.me/img/monero/monero-tardigrade-1.png 22:55:00 Also Tony the tiger. 22:55:07 that was made for me 22:55:26 tony the tiger would be amazing. 22:55:26 rottensox: 2020-08-19 - 20:53:59 tell rottensox pm me for invite 22:55:50 lol niocbrrrrrr 22:56:23 tardigrade is the official animal of Monero 22:56:45 rehrar: Can have a look soon^tm 22:56:52 I think the current editions are quite decent 22:57:02 They allow people to basically stay up to date with minimal effor 22:57:03 t 23:57:56 Revuo is Centralized. 23:58:05 I control the information flow. >:)