geonic: crazy!

Note that Saturday is special

Community meeting at 16:30 UTC

Coffee Chat at 18 UTC

Two events on the same day

We're trying it out

ICYMI. Revuo Issue 43 (Jan 10-17 2020) - revuo-monero.com/issue-43.html

sgp_: looking forward to tomorrow's eventful agenda.

made my first CCS proposal! repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/117

lza_menace: that looks good! :- ) I've only a question: why python?

<xmrhaelan> Iza_menace looks promising. You should add the XMR amounts and milestones to this...

<xmrhaelan> I won’t be here for the meeting today, but I am hoping Thunderosa or Almutasim can sit in for us. A quick update on the LochaMesh thing- they’ve updated their CCS proposal and I think it’s much more reasonable at this point: repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/115

Meeting in ~15 minutes

Meeting time everyone

0. Introduction

We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Workgroup Meeting!

Link to agenda on GitHub: monero-project/meta #428

Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.

1. Greetings

Ciao

Hi.

Hello

Hi

hi

ping rehrar

welcome everyone

thanks for showing up 30 minutes earlier than usual :)

hi

2. Community highlights

See Monero weekly highlights at revuo-monero.com

Present.

A new edition was just out yesterday I believe

The community planning for the Konferenco has been underway. Updates on that later.

Does anyone have community (non-workgroup) updates to share?

apparently not :)

3. CCS updates

Funding required:

3 months part time work on Getmonero.org ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/ErCiccione-website-jan-march.html (92.42 / 174 XMR)

Ideas (to be discussed):

Locha Mesh, private transactions and sync over a resilient long-range radio mesh network repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/115

We're switching to Fridays.

there were some concerns about the cost and project management (clear project milestrones) on this one

the total amount was reduced to 150 xmr

<cankerwort> hola

any other comments? thanks to everyone who left comments on gitlab

yikes, is there any more technical details on what they plan to do?

vtnerd: I am not sure, but I recommend asking on gitlab since they have been responsive so far

do they plan to post an updated proposal soon?

binaryFate: they already updated the amount

ah crud yeah they have a link. I can't respond now because this is the first I've paid attention to it. My primary concern would be the in the routing code, its not trivial for this type of thing

most comments were strongly suggesting to be more specific on milestones

they focused a bit more on the goals and roadmap

hmm its very much a wip I think

my only comment is that this has more risk than the usual CCS for monero feature

agree. On the other hand this will have visibility beyond Monero circles.

thanks vtnerd, please ask specific questions on gitlab too so that the proposal can get better

I haven't had time to look at the proposal after mu last comment, but i see that one of the milestones is about getting the localization workgroup translate their docs

that's very unlikely to happen

yes, if it works ... very awesome

i don't really think we have the resources for that, we already struggle for our own stuff

what would it mean to take this on as Monero Project project?

rehrar: have they given any indication they have any interest in that?

If they haven't, then I wouldn't really be for funding this.

explain please

<cankerwort> The tech sounds awesome but I'd be interested in practical limitation estimated like time to broadcast a transaction and range

explain? hmmm...

<cankerwort> although the name is not even in esperanto

Well, I can see how developing this tech might be good somewhat, but it's kind of general in its application (not really Monero-only focused) as I understand.

and if it's something that can benefit a lot of other projects, Monero is fronting a good amount of the bill instead of others.

So a way to offset this cost is to have it be a Monero Project project. Similar to OpenAlias. It benefits others if they want it, but it's distinctly "From Monero people"

rehrar: : I think requiring that the CCS only gives $$$ to "Monero Project" projects is far too restrictive and is really a new precedent, so I'm curious if you're focused on that part or the main nature of the project's goal (Monero-focued or elsewhere with Monero as a feature)

the marketing aspect of that offset the cost of its creation.

Bandwidth is my question

my recommendation then is to ask if they want to do that, but I would personally understand if they don't want to

I am against the proposal from a sustainability perspective. Funding a development *team* is not the goal imo, I think we should strive for funding key people for projects that already have a decentralized/communal ethos. If they can't get developers without paying them, we won't be able to bootstrap the system to work without money greasing the wheels constantly

I've been trying to find a way to express the value of 'coordinators' in the ecosystem that are always available to manage/direct/help their particular corner, so that the people working on the actual open source part have low friction

And that kind of position carries with it an expectation of availability

So paying for that particular position, once it emerges, is warranted, but not a full team

The MRL is a good example, they're pretty much always available to talk about stuff, which is a big deal. They buffer ideas and conversations for the actually decentralized research team

Who has no expectation of availability

in this case "a full team" is 2 people I believe

<cankerwort> maybe an element of availability and/or dedication to reddit posts and updates would help?

I mean, the issue is more about being available (for a decentralized project)

we've spent a good amount of time on this topic, so let's only give it another minute or two

Seeing their interactions on twitter, they are getting *a lot* of praise from bitcoin/grin/cypherpunk larger crypto space.

In their own answers I did not see Monero mentioned a single time.

So on the plus side I see a lot of potential visible PR for Monero in return for contributing, on the minus side I fear lack of Monero-specific dedication from the project team

looks like marketing is an important part to focus on more

binaryFate ^

without overstepping into the whole thing, I think it's appropriate to expect some recognition

i think if the proposal get approved, we should require recognition

any final comments?

like put it clearly in the website and everywhere else that part of the development is funded by Monero

That is reasonable

if we make it more explicit on either part that this project is also about marketing for Monero, then the proposal has more value as we don't just look at the neaty greaty technicals

cool, moving on

v1docq47: video creation / translations into russian (february - july 2020) repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/116

in my personal opinion, this is a great proposal. I'm blown away by the amount of work they do

and they recently made a Trello board so we can more easily see what they are working on

I appreciate that a lot

<cankerwort> also, given grin/btc transactions are much smaller, their tech would work better with those coins

yeah, they are also very responsive to reviews and they contact me privately sometimes to have clarifications on the localization process. It's a +1 from me

cool, any other comments?

A Monero-centric Merchant Marketplace repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/117

I don't personally have any comments here yet

Ten hours. Quite new. Let's get them to hop on this channel to answer some questions.

yeah, also Reddit, etc

we can proceed then

4. Workgroup report

a. Localization workgroup

ErCiccione[m]: any update?

Not really. Soon i will make a general refresh of the strings in gui and cli

so that translators can work on the new merged stuff

i just want to note

that there are many suggested strings on weblate (translate.getmonero.org), but no reviewers to take a look at them,

so, after the refresh, i will make a call for translators and i ask the community at large to spread it as much as possible, because there is a lot to do

i will probably refresh the CLI first, because the GUI folks are changing a lot of strings and i want to wait for them to be finished first

that's it

Sounds great.

ErCiccione[m]: you can ping me too for translations

thanks ErCiccione[m]

b. GUI workgroup

There was a point release. Binaries are not out yet. github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/releases/tag/v0.15.0.3

c. Outreach workgroup

netrik182: Great to hear that. Keep an eye on #monero-translations :)

almutasim: can you give an update?

Sure. We put out a piece on Chinese perspective. We have a piece ready to go on RPC-Pay. But it is waiting on an infrastructure upgrade.

sgp: there's currently much effort being made to update server backends

We also have a piece started on paper wallets

About RPC-pay, would be great to have a moneropedia entry for that on getmonero.org

or a dev guide

That’s a good idea.

basically, should be on the website one way or another

100%

Right

It is really neat. We have been testing it with our servers.

I look forward to seeing your system where people can get paid, where you effectively serve as a mining pool for RPC-pay

any other updates?

we are working with endogenic on a nice document he has on Wallet auditing.

That is about it.

nice

d. Hardware workgroup

we can come back to this is msvb-lab is present

e. Konferenco workgroup

lots of work has been ongoing here

weekly meetings on Wednesdays at this point

tentative date June 13-14

we have a tentative location, but there are many outstanding questions

it will be in Berlin

any really quick konferenco questions? you can help out in #monero-konferenco

events will be livestreamed as always

ok, moving on then

f. Monero Research Lab

Hey there

sarang: can you give a brief update please?

:)

Sure

Over the past couple of weeks or so, the Triptych preprint was posted and got some good coverage

It's undergone some updates as well

That's a linkable ring signature construction that scales well

sgp_ and I worked up a blag post on supply auditing that will appear soon

I worked up some material on hidden timelocks, which could be useful but need more analysis

tldr hidden timelocks?

I am still waiting on any final review notes from suraeNoether on the CLSAG overhaul

binaryFate: it's possible to replace "plaintext" timelocks with commitments and clever range proofs

So you can show that the timelock for an (unknown) input has passed without revealing it

to avoid standing out?

Yep

gotcha

It was designed for DLSAG, but also has more general applicability

That sounds awesome.

And the new CLSAG security model is being ported to DLSAG as well, along with some key aggregation math

Math wizards

That sounds awesome.

It remains to be seen if the increase in tx size would justify hidden timelocks

re auditability, I need help making a better auditability image still, so let me know if you have ideas repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/monero-site/merge_requests/1207

I probably won't be able to personally work on this until Sunday or Monday

g. Website workgroup

ErCiccione: can we have another round of updates please? :)

gladly

so,

The wallet auditing document is related to that. A draft should go up on TAIGA tomorrow.

A lot is going on. We have a lot of pull requests ready to go and they should be merged at the beginning of next week

right now i'm focusing mostly on getting the website (at least the 'core' part of it) on Weblate, because right now making any change, means that that change needs to be ported to all languages

that results in a lot of time spent for that, which is very annoying for everybody and suck a lot of time that could be used for something more productive.

I'm running tests and Weblate seems to be reacting nicely, even if YAML files can be a bit troublesome and may happen that stuff don't get parsed

to avoid that i'm making extensive tests on my personal version, which is a copy of the instance hosted on translate.getmonero.org

That makes a lot of sense. I honestly don’t know how you handle the current situation.

almutasim: a lot of swearing

Ha!

;)

but yeah it's extremely annoying, especially now that we are updating a lot of stuff and all languages need to be up to date

cool, thanks for your sacrifice

so, that's the priority for me at the moment. After that i will try to put other parts of the website on weblate (footers and others), which structure make much harder for weblate to parse them and could require some substantial changes to the structure of those documents

:P

beside that, next will be the roadmap and the FAQ section

ah

the onion mirror should be up at the end of this month according to pony

oooh fancy

Yeah, everything is ready and some prep PR already got merged

if people are interested in the development of the website, please join #monero-site and visit repo.getmonero.org

reviews of Pull requests and issues are very welcome

I love the website workgroup since it's something anyone, regardless of skill, can help with. there are so many different things to do and an unlimited amount of necessary work

thanks ErCiccione

5. Open ideas time

And with so much impact!

I'm going to extend the meeting 10 minutes to fit open ideas time in here

It’s open ideas time! Feel free to propose your ideas to this discussion group, and feel free to comment on others’ ideas. If you disagree with the idea, please reply with constructive criticism. Thank you!

absolutely sgp_. I will try to improve our docs to make easier for newcomers to contribute

totes missed it but caught up already.

I think we should talk about /r/moneromining folks, it's annoying i know, but it's a discussion that must happen

for reference: repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/monero-site/merge_requests/1195

ErCiccione: indeed, this is going to be a long discussion though

i am with needmonero90 on opposing Locha Mesh for XMR.

yeah i understand sgp_.

speaking from experience, nobody uses locha mesh in venezuela. nobody.

Right now we are removing the mention from getmonero, but we should do more

background context: lead mod is acting rash and making racist statements, calling other people who disagree "snowflakes." Basically using the subreddit for their own purposes rather than for Monero mining

I still need to reach out to my Reddit contacts, can do that today after the coffee chat

but they probably won't do anything

they wouldn't de-mod him for putting that kind of stuff in the description?

needmonero90 is sitting on a backup subreddit we can switch to with a good amount of effort

asymptotically: not really, Reddit is weird like that

i think the idea of the migration to /r/monerominer or whatever was called, is the only option we have left

ErCiccione: yes, I think we shoudl prepare to transition to that

maybe we should set aside specific discussion time

to plan the transition

Yeah, we should.

I made the "A Monero-centric Merchant Marketplace" MR - I'm usually not available during these community meeting time blocks. Long form discussion in Gitlab/Reddit would be better

ErCiccione: can you and needmonero90 please coordinate a time and invite others as needed?

Sure.

lza_menace: cool, please share on Reddit too

maybe a dedicated meeting or something. I know binaryfate wants to talk about the fact that the chats are getting a bit bad lately, we could include that discussion as well

will help kick off discussion

Sure thing

sgp_: :thumbsup: - will do - yall have a great weekend

" the chats are getting a bit bad lately, we could include that discussion as well" what chats?

#monero-markets and #monero-pools going off-topic i think

ah, got it

ah yes. The channels. -pools, -markes and even sometimes #monero

definitely a related item

you all are welcome to use this channel for discussion. that's what it's for :)

oh I have one thing I wanted to mention during open ideas time

I have a self-hosted Wekan (open-source Trello copy) instance now available. I’m happy to add your project if you are interested. Please message me for details. I’ve found it more useful than Taiga for many project management needs.

Here’s an example for the Konferenco: monero.sandcats.io/shared/f6usdnbIFv3mGp09hTFRkEbz38CHn2KHyM04V-Nhmp-

anyone else have an open ideas topic? we're nearly out of time

6. Confirm next meeting date/time

The next community meeting will be in 2 weeks on 1 February at 17:00 UTC.

A Coffee Chat begins shortly after this meeting: youtu.be/YqMcz3XOS6M

please PM me ASAP if you can participate. I'll distribute Jitsi links right away

The following Coffee Chat is on Saturday 8 February at 17:00 UTC.

7. Conclusion

That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.

Thanks!

Thanks for hosting sgp_

thanks sgp_ and everyone

lal

SerHack: it's just what I know :)

i don't have a programming background, more sysadmin. I know scripting languages mostly, learning golang, but wouldn't feel comfortable making something production ready with it

plus it's easy to build web apps with

Atomic swaps xmr<->btc will be awesome for xmr holders - and a potential nightmare for btc holders

elaborate.

why'd it be a nightmare for btc holders exactly?

Who in their right mind would atomic swap xmr to btc at all?

given that it very well might be "blacklisted" btc

because btc is way more broadly accepted everywhere?

going from fungible to non-fungible is not really a good idea :P

I, for one, am not going to play that gambling game.

I prefer blackjack.

:)

I really enjoyed the coffee chat today

How could it have been better?

it takes some time to go from formal to actual discussion/organic chatter

yeah, I tried to simplify that by dropping 4 topics at once. was that good or was it too confusing?

it makes it harder to drop in and out

needmonero90: more punishable when you step away for a sec?

Is that what you mean?

punishing*

Yes that word

How would you do it?

glad it went well.