01:21:26 <sgp_> geonic: crazy!
01:21:38 <sgp_> Note that Saturday is special
01:21:49 <sgp_> Community meeting at 16:30 UTC
01:21:56 <sgp_> Coffee Chat at 18 UTC
01:22:01 <sgp_> Two events on the same day
01:22:07 <sgp_> We're trying it out
04:19:11 <rottensox> ICYMI. Revuo Issue 43 (Jan 10-17 2020) - https://revuo-monero.com/issue-43.html
04:19:42 <rottensox> sgp_: looking forward to tomorrow's eventful agenda.
06:49:14 <lza_menace> made my first CCS proposal! https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/117
13:58:39 <SerHack> lza_menace: that looks good! :- ) I've only a question: why python?
13:59:59 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> Iza_menace looks promising. You should add the XMR amounts and milestones to this...
14:02:36 <xmrmatterbridge> <xmrhaelan> I won’t be here for the meeting today, but I am hoping Thunderosa or Almutasim can sit in for us. A quick update on the LochaMesh thing- they’ve updated their CCS proposal and I think it’s much more reasonable at this point: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/115
16:17:17 <sgp_> Meeting in ~15 minutes
16:30:19 <sgp_> Meeting time everyone
16:30:27 <sgp_> 0. Introduction
16:30:32 <sgp_> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Workgroup Meeting!
16:30:37 <sgp_> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/428
16:30:42 <sgp_> Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
16:30:47 <sgp_> 1. Greetings
16:31:03 <ErCiccione> Ciao
16:31:04 <almutasim> Hi.
16:31:10 <sarang> Hello
16:31:12 <v1docq47[m]> Hi
16:31:15 <netrik182> hi
16:31:44 <sgp_> ping rehrar
16:31:48 <sgp_> welcome everyone
16:31:57 <sgp_> thanks for showing up 30 minutes earlier than usual :)
16:32:00 <vtnerd> hi
16:32:18 <sgp_> 2. Community highlights
16:32:24 <sgp_> See Monero weekly highlights at https://revuo-monero.com
16:32:26 <rehrar> Present.
16:32:31 <sgp_> A new edition was just out yesterday I believe
16:32:43 <sgp_> The community planning for the Konferenco has been underway. Updates on that later.
16:32:49 <sgp_> Does anyone have community (non-workgroup) updates to share?
16:34:05 <sgp_> apparently not :)
16:34:10 <sgp_> 3. CCS updates
16:34:16 <sgp_> Funding required:
16:34:22 <sgp_> 3 months part time work on Getmonero.org https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/ErCiccione-website-jan-march.html  (92.42 / 174 XMR)
16:34:35 <sgp_> Ideas (to be discussed):
16:34:42 <sgp_> Locha Mesh, private transactions and sync over a resilient long-range radio mesh network https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/115
16:34:59 <rehrar> We're switching to Fridays.
16:36:14 <sgp_> there were some concerns about the cost and project management (clear project milestrones) on this one
16:36:18 * binaryFate lurking
16:36:44 <sgp_> the total amount was reduced to 150 xmr
16:36:45 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> hola
16:36:54 <sgp_> any other comments? thanks to everyone who left comments on gitlab
16:37:07 <vtnerd> yikes, is there any more technical details on what they plan to do?
16:37:30 <sgp_> vtnerd: I am not sure, but I recommend asking on gitlab since they have been responsive so far
16:37:50 <binaryFate> do they plan to post an updated proposal soon?
16:37:54 * needmonero90 lurks while sleeping
16:38:01 <sgp_> binaryFate: they already updated the amount
16:38:23 <vtnerd> ah crud yeah they have a link. I can't respond now because this is the first I've paid attention to it. My primary concern would be the in the routing code, its not trivial for this type of thing
16:38:28 <binaryFate> most comments were strongly suggesting to be more specific on milestones
16:38:35 <sgp_> they focused a bit more on the goals and roadmap
16:38:40 <sgp_> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/115/diffs?commit_id=1031a2e444255e5fa8138601ef746e8b37900a18
16:39:33 <vtnerd> hmm its very much a wip I think
16:40:05 <vtnerd> my only comment is that this has more risk than the usual CCS for monero feature
16:40:37 <binaryFate> agree. On the other hand this will have visibility beyond Monero circles.
16:40:48 <sgp_> thanks vtnerd, please ask specific questions on gitlab too so that the proposal can get better
16:41:09 <ErCiccione> I haven't had time to look at the proposal after mu last comment, but i see that one of the milestones is about getting the localization workgroup translate their docs
16:41:13 <ErCiccione> that's very unlikely to happen
16:41:29 <vtnerd> yes, if it works ... very awesome
16:42:03 <ErCiccione> i don't really think we have the resources for that, we already struggle for our own stuff
16:42:37 <rehrar> what would it mean to take this on as Monero Project project?
16:43:18 <sgp_> rehrar: have they given any indication they have any interest in that?
16:43:33 <rehrar> If they haven't, then I wouldn't really be for funding this.
16:43:49 <sgp_> explain please
16:44:10 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> The tech sounds awesome but I'd be interested in practical limitation estimated like time to broadcast a transaction and range
16:44:45 <rehrar> explain? hmmm...
16:44:46 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> although the name is not even in esperanto
16:45:16 <rehrar> Well, I can see how developing this tech might be good somewhat, but it's kind of general in its application (not really Monero-only focused) as I understand.
16:45:44 <rehrar> and if it's something that can benefit a lot of other projects, Monero is fronting a good amount of the bill instead of others.
16:46:11 <rehrar> So a way to offset this cost is to have it be a Monero Project project. Similar to OpenAlias. It benefits others if they want it, but it's distinctly "From Monero people"
16:46:14 <sgp_> rehrar: : I think requiring that the CCS only gives $$$ to "Monero Project" projects is far too restrictive and is really a new precedent, so I'm curious if you're focused on that part or the main nature of the project's goal (Monero-focued or elsewhere with Monero as a feature)
16:46:19 <rehrar> the marketing aspect of that offset the cost of its creation.
16:47:05 <ArticMine> Bandwidth is my question
16:47:13 <sgp_> my recommendation then is to ask if they want to do that, but I would personally understand if they don't want to
16:47:52 <needmonero90> I am against the proposal from a sustainability perspective. Funding a development *team* is not the goal imo, I think we should strive for funding key people for projects that already have a decentralized/communal ethos. If they can't get developers without paying them, we won't be able to bootstrap the system to work without money greasing the wheels constantly
16:48:08 <needmonero90> I've been trying to find a way to express the value of 'coordinators' in the ecosystem that are always available to manage/direct/help their particular corner, so that the people working on the actual open source part have low friction
16:48:20 <needmonero90> And that kind of position carries with it an expectation of availability
16:48:51 <needmonero90> So paying for that particular position, once it emerges, is warranted, but not a full team
16:49:53 <needmonero90> The MRL is a good example, they're pretty much always available to talk about stuff, which is a big deal. They buffer ideas and conversations for the actually decentralized research team
16:50:04 <needmonero90> Who has no expectation of availability
16:50:16 <sgp_> in this case "a full team" is 2 people I believe
16:51:36 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> maybe an element of availability and/or dedication to reddit posts and updates would help?
16:52:14 <needmonero90> I mean, the issue is more about being available (for a decentralized project)
16:52:38 <sgp_> we've spent a good amount of time on this topic,  so let's only give it another minute or two
16:52:45 * needmonero90 nods
16:53:49 <binaryFate> Seeing their interactions on twitter, they are getting *a lot* of praise from bitcoin/grin/cypherpunk larger crypto space.
16:54:03 <binaryFate> In their own answers I did not see Monero mentioned a single time.
16:54:31 <binaryFate> So on the plus side I see a lot of potential visible PR for Monero in return for contributing, on the minus side I fear lack of Monero-specific dedication from the project team
16:54:49 <sgp_> looks like marketing is an important part to focus on more
16:55:21 <rehrar> binaryFate ^
16:55:21 <sgp_> without overstepping into the whole thing, I think it's appropriate to expect some recognition
16:55:51 <ErCiccione[m]> i think if the proposal get approved, we should require recognition
16:55:51 <sgp_> any final comments?
16:56:08 <ErCiccione[m]> like put it clearly in the website and everywhere else that part of the development is funded by Monero
16:56:39 <ArticMine> That is reasonable
16:56:58 <binaryFate> if we make it more explicit on either part that this project is also about marketing for Monero, then the proposal has more value as we don't just look at the neaty greaty technicals
16:57:05 <sgp_> cool, moving on
16:57:12 <sgp_> v1docq47: video creation / translations into russian (february - july 2020) https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/116
16:57:29 <sgp_> in my personal opinion, this is a great proposal. I'm blown away by the amount of work they do
16:58:06 <sgp_> and they recently made a Trello board so we can more easily see what they are working on
16:58:11 <sgp_> I appreciate that a lot
16:58:18 <xmrmatterbridge> <cankerwort> also, given grin/btc transactions are much smaller, their tech would work better with those coins
16:58:34 <ErCiccione[m]> yeah, they are also very responsive to reviews and they contact me privately sometimes to have clarifications on the localization process. It's a +1 from me
16:58:52 <sgp_> cool, any other comments?
16:59:35 <sgp_> A Monero-centric Merchant Marketplace https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/117
17:00:38 <sgp_> I don't personally have any comments here yet
17:00:56 <rehrar> Ten hours. Quite new. Let's get them to hop on this channel to answer some questions.
17:01:11 <sgp_> yeah, also Reddit, etc
17:01:54 <sgp_> we can proceed then
17:02:00 <sgp_> 4. Workgroup report
17:02:05 <sgp_> a. Localization workgroup
17:02:09 <sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: any update?
17:02:43 <ErCiccione[m]> Not really. Soon i will make a general refresh of the strings in gui and cli
17:02:59 <ErCiccione[m]> so that translators can work on the new merged stuff
17:03:05 <ErCiccione[m]> i just want to note
17:03:30 <ErCiccione[m]> that there are many suggested strings on weblate (translate.getmonero.org), but no reviewers to take a look at them,
17:03:54 <ErCiccione[m]> so, after the refresh, i will make a call for translators and i ask the community at large to spread it as much as possible, because there is a lot to do
17:04:44 <ErCiccione[m]> i will probably refresh the CLI first, because the GUI folks are changing a lot of strings and i want to wait for them to be finished first
17:04:52 <ErCiccione[m]> that's it
17:04:56 <almutasim> Sounds great.
17:05:11 <netrik182> ErCiccione[m]: you can ping me too for translations
17:05:16 <sgp_> thanks ErCiccione[m]
17:05:29 <sgp_> b. GUI workgroup
17:05:35 <sgp_> There was a point release. Binaries are not out yet. https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/releases/tag/v0.15.0.3
17:05:39 <sgp_> c. Outreach workgroup
17:05:44 <ErCiccione[m]> netrik182: Great to hear that. Keep an eye on #monero-translations :)
17:05:44 <sgp_> almutasim: can you give an update?
17:06:53 <almutasim> Sure. We put out a piece on Chinese perspective. We have a piece ready to go on RPC-Pay. But it is waiting on an infrastructure upgrade.
17:07:06 <netrik182> sgp: there's currently much effort being made to update server backends
17:07:21 <almutasim> We also have a piece started on paper wallets
17:07:41 <ErCiccione> About RPC-pay, would be great to have a moneropedia entry for that on getmonero.org
17:07:44 <sgp_> https://www.monerooutreach.org/monero-china-west.php
17:07:47 <ErCiccione> or a dev guide
17:08:09 <almutasim> That’s a good idea.
17:08:14 <ErCiccione> basically, should be on the website one way or another
17:08:30 <sgp_> 100%
17:08:34 <almutasim> Right
17:09:00 <almutasim> It is really neat. We have been testing it with our servers.
17:10:17 <sgp_> I look forward to seeing your system where people can get paid, where you effectively serve as a mining pool for RPC-pay
17:10:22 <sgp_> any other updates?
17:10:31 <almutasim> we are working with endogenic on a nice document he has on Wallet auditing.
17:10:40 <almutasim> That is about it.
17:10:44 <sgp_> nice
17:11:00 <sgp_> d. Hardware workgroup
17:11:10 <sgp_> we can come back to this is msvb-lab is present
17:11:19 <sgp_> e. Konferenco workgroup
17:11:24 <sgp_> lots of work has been ongoing here
17:11:32 <sgp_> weekly meetings on Wednesdays at this point
17:11:45 <sgp_> tentative date June 13-14
17:11:56 <sgp_> we have a tentative location, but there are many outstanding questions
17:12:02 <sgp_> it will be in Berlin
17:12:19 <sgp_> any really quick konferenco questions? you can help out in #monero-konferenco
17:12:32 <sgp_> events will be livestreamed as always
17:13:00 <sgp_> ok, moving on then
17:13:04 <sgp_> f. Monero Research Lab
17:13:08 <sarang> Hey there
17:13:10 <sgp_> sarang: can you give a brief update please?
17:13:13 <sgp_> :)
17:13:25 <sarang> Sure
17:13:39 <sarang> Over the past couple of weeks or so, the Triptych preprint was posted and got some good coverage
17:13:46 <sarang> It's undergone some updates as well
17:13:58 <sarang> That's a linkable ring signature construction that scales well
17:14:15 <sarang> sgp_ and I worked up a blag post on supply auditing that will appear soon
17:14:35 <sarang> I worked up some material on hidden timelocks, which could be useful but need more analysis
17:15:04 <binaryFate> tldr hidden timelocks?
17:15:06 <sarang> I am still waiting on any final review notes from suraeNoether on the CLSAG overhaul
17:15:33 <sarang> binaryFate: it's possible to replace "plaintext" timelocks with commitments and clever range proofs
17:15:53 <sarang> So you can show that the timelock for an (unknown) input has passed without revealing it
17:15:58 <binaryFate> to avoid standing out?
17:16:04 <sarang> Yep
17:16:10 <binaryFate> gotcha
17:16:18 <sarang> It was designed for DLSAG, but also has more general applicability
17:16:51 <almutasim> That sounds awesome.
17:16:54 <sarang> And the new CLSAG security model is being ported to DLSAG as well, along with some key aggregation math
17:16:54 <needmonero90> Math wizards
17:16:55 <almutasim> That sounds awesome.
17:17:26 <sarang> It remains to be seen if the increase in tx size would justify hidden timelocks
17:17:37 <sgp_> re auditability, I need help making a better auditability image still, so let me know if you have ideas https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/monero-site/merge_requests/1207
17:18:04 <sgp_> I probably won't be able to personally work on this until Sunday or Monday
17:18:55 <sgp_> g. Website workgroup
17:19:04 <sgp_> ErCiccione: can we have another round of updates please? :)
17:19:18 <ErCiccione> gladly
17:19:21 <ErCiccione> so,
17:19:44 <almutasim> The wallet auditing document is related to that. A draft should go up on TAIGA tomorrow.
17:19:57 <ErCiccione> A lot is going on. We have a lot of pull requests ready to go and they should be merged at the beginning of next week
17:20:44 <ErCiccione> right now i'm focusing mostly on getting the website (at least the 'core' part of it) on Weblate, because right now making any change, means that that change needs to be ported to all languages
17:21:19 <ErCiccione> that results in a lot of time spent for that, which is very annoying for everybody and suck a lot of time that could be used for something more productive.
17:22:11 <ErCiccione> I'm running tests and Weblate seems to be reacting nicely, even if YAML files can be a bit troublesome and may happen that stuff don't get parsed
17:22:48 <ErCiccione> to avoid that i'm making extensive tests on my personal version, which is a copy of the instance hosted on translate.getmonero.org
17:22:58 <almutasim> That makes a lot of sense. I honestly don’t know how you handle the current situation.
17:23:13 <ErCiccione> almutasim: a lot of swearing
17:23:30 <almutasim> Ha!
17:23:36 <ErCiccione> ;)
17:23:58 <ErCiccione> but yeah it's extremely annoying, especially now that we are updating a lot of stuff and all languages need to be up to date
17:24:57 <sgp_> cool, thanks for your sacrifice
17:24:58 <ErCiccione> so, that's the priority for me at the moment. After that i will try to put other parts of the website on weblate (footers and others), which structure make much harder for weblate to parse them and could require some substantial changes to the structure of those documents
17:25:31 <ErCiccione> :P
17:25:48 <ErCiccione> beside that, next will be the roadmap and the FAQ section
17:26:03 <ErCiccione> ah
17:26:26 <ErCiccione> the onion mirror should be up at the end of this month according to pony
17:26:33 <sgp_> oooh fancy
17:26:55 <ErCiccione> Yeah, everything is ready and some prep PR already got merged
17:27:22 <ErCiccione> if people are interested in the development of the website, please join #monero-site and visit repo.getmonero.org
17:27:38 <ErCiccione> reviews of Pull requests and issues are very welcome
17:28:19 <sgp_> I love the website workgroup since it's something anyone, regardless of skill, can help with. there are so many different things to do and an unlimited amount of necessary work
17:28:35 <sgp_> thanks ErCiccione
17:28:56 <sgp_> 5. Open ideas time
17:29:00 <almutasim> And with so much impact!
17:29:05 <sgp_> I'm going to extend the meeting 10 minutes to fit open ideas time in here
17:29:13 <sgp_> It’s open ideas time! Feel free to propose your ideas to this discussion group, and feel free to comment on others’ ideas. If you disagree with the idea, please reply with constructive criticism. Thank you!
17:29:16 <ErCiccione> absolutely sgp_. I will try to improve our docs to make easier for newcomers to contribute
17:29:53 <rottensox> totes missed it but caught up already.
17:29:57 <ErCiccione> I think we should talk about /r/moneromining folks, it's annoying i know, but it's a discussion that must happen
17:30:06 <ErCiccione> for reference: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/monero-site/merge_requests/1195
17:30:10 <sgp_> ErCiccione: indeed, this is going to be a long discussion though
17:30:25 <rottensox> i am with needmonero90 on opposing Locha Mesh for XMR.
17:30:33 <ErCiccione> yeah i understand sgp_.
17:30:37 <rottensox> speaking from experience, nobody uses locha mesh in venezuela. nobody.
17:30:50 <ErCiccione> Right now we are removing the mention from getmonero, but we should do more
17:31:11 <sgp_> background context: lead mod is acting rash and making racist statements, calling other people who disagree "snowflakes." Basically using the subreddit for their own purposes rather than for Monero mining
17:31:47 <sgp_> I still need to reach out to my Reddit contacts, can do that today after the coffee chat
17:31:56 <sgp_> but they probably won't do anything
17:32:22 <asymptotically> they wouldn't de-mod him for putting that kind of stuff in the description?
17:32:23 <sgp_> needmonero90 is sitting on a backup subreddit we can switch to with a good amount of effort
17:32:34 <sgp_> asymptotically: not really, Reddit is weird like that
17:32:38 <ErCiccione> i think the idea of the migration to /r/monerominer or whatever was called, is the only option we have left
17:33:01 <sgp_> ErCiccione: yes, I think we shoudl prepare to transition to that
17:33:57 <sgp_> maybe we should set aside specific discussion time
17:34:08 <sgp_> to plan the transition
17:34:44 <ErCiccione> Yeah, we should.
17:34:53 <lza_menace> I made the "A Monero-centric Merchant Marketplace" MR - I'm usually not available during these community meeting time blocks. Long form discussion in Gitlab/Reddit would be better
17:35:10 <sgp_> ErCiccione: can you and needmonero90 please coordinate a time and invite others as needed?
17:35:20 <needmonero90> Sure.
17:35:22 <sgp_> lza_menace: cool, please share on Reddit too
17:35:28 <ErCiccione> maybe a dedicated meeting or something. I know binaryfate wants to talk about the fact that the chats are getting a bit bad lately, we could include that discussion as well
17:35:29 <sgp_> will help kick off discussion
17:35:40 <ErCiccione> Sure thing
17:35:49 <lza_menace> sgp_: :thumbsup: - will do - yall have a great weekend
17:36:02 <sgp_> " the chats are getting a bit bad lately, we could include that discussion as well" what chats?
17:36:16 <asymptotically> #monero-markets and #monero-pools going off-topic i think
17:36:21 <sgp_> ah, got it
17:36:22 <binaryFate> ah yes. The channels. -pools, -markes and even sometimes #monero
17:36:34 <sgp_> definitely a related item
17:36:50 <sgp_> you all are welcome to use this channel for discussion. that's what it's for :)
17:37:18 <sgp_> oh I have one thing I wanted to mention during open ideas time
17:37:50 <sgp_> I have a self-hosted Wekan (open-source Trello copy) instance now available. I’m happy to add your project if you are interested. Please message me for details. I’ve found it more useful than Taiga for many project management needs.
17:38:15 <sgp_> Here’s an example for the Konferenco: https://monero.sandcats.io/shared/f6usdnbIFv3mGp09hTFRkEbz38CHn2KHyM04V-Nhmp-
17:39:21 <sgp_> anyone else have an open ideas topic? we're nearly out of time
17:40:42 <sgp_> 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
17:40:47 <sgp_> The next community meeting will be in 2 weeks on 1 February at 17:00 UTC.
17:40:52 <sgp_> A Coffee Chat begins shortly after this meeting: https://youtu.be/YqMcz3XOS6M
17:41:08 <sgp_> please PM me ASAP if you can participate. I'll distribute Jitsi links right away
17:41:13 <sgp_> The following Coffee Chat is on Saturday 8 February at 17:00 UTC.
17:41:19 <sgp_> 7. Conclusion
17:41:24 <sgp_> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.
17:41:45 <almutasim> Thanks!
17:43:34 <needmonero90> Thanks for hosting sgp_
17:44:41 <binaryFate> thanks sgp_ and everyone
17:45:16 <rehrar> lal
17:46:14 <lza_menace> SerHack: it's just what I know :)
17:47:24 <lza_menace> i don't have a programming background, more sysadmin. I know scripting languages mostly, learning golang, but wouldn't feel comfortable making something production ready with it
17:55:33 <lza_menace> plus it's easy to build web apps with
18:06:47 <Inge-> Atomic swaps xmr<->btc will be awesome for xmr holders - and a potential nightmare for btc holders
18:07:01 <rottensox> elaborate.
18:07:16 <rottensox> why'd it be a nightmare for btc holders exactly?
18:08:29 <sech1> Who in their right mind would atomic swap xmr to btc at all?
18:08:41 <sech1> given that it very well might be "blacklisted" btc
18:09:18 <rottensox> because btc is way more broadly accepted everywhere?
18:09:37 <rehrar> going from fungible to non-fungible is not really a good idea :P
18:09:49 <rehrar> I, for one, am not going to play that gambling game.
18:09:53 <rehrar> I prefer blackjack.
18:09:56 <rottensox> :)
19:23:01 <sgp_> I really enjoyed the coffee chat today
19:23:08 <sgp_> How could it have been better?
19:28:26 <needmonero90> it takes some time to go from formal to actual discussion/organic chatter
19:30:04 <sgp_> yeah, I tried to simplify that by dropping 4 topics at once. was that good or was it too confusing?
19:31:55 <needmonero90> it makes it harder to drop in and out
19:38:46 <sgp_> needmonero90: more punishable when you step away for a sec?
19:38:50 <sgp_> Is that what you mean?
19:38:59 <needmonero90> punishing*
19:39:25 <sgp_> Yes that word
19:41:01 <sgp_> How would you do it?
19:44:47 <rottensox> glad it went well.
23:21:30 <kinghat> https://yro.slashdot.org/story/20/01/18/2129220/facial-recognition-database-with-3-billion-scraped-images-might-end-privacy-as-we-know-it