00:02:44 Don't quote without sources. Hahaha, they are so stupid they will anyways even if I say not to. 00:02:52 - whoever is running this FUD campaign 00:03:44 Once again, you are replying to a bot. 00:04:44 Well, I assume somebody has said it's a bot 00:07:16 I just discovered Fluffypony tells people to not buy Monero. However, he tells people to USE it instead. Wow, the world is ending. What an incredible surprise, whooo... 00:07:16 If you tell people to buy it because it's going up in price, there is a chance it will go down and people will feel angry and hurt. In short, support Monero by mining and minting. 00:10:57 support monero by using it. accept it in your businesses, spend it at vendors who accept it. 00:22:54 and hold 00:23:32 Yeah agreed. I do need to start trying to pay with it, and just buy back with it at the same time in fiat. That way that individual has it to use, and I can still keep my original stash 00:24:08 i've created a subaddress in the cli version and the system crashed while the wallet was open. now that subaddress isn't there anymore. without that one the wallet won't notice any incoming payments, right? 00:26:45 charolastra: if a tx was sent to that subaddress it will find them 00:27:23 even if the first reception is in the future? 00:28:21 charolastra: time doesnt matter afaik 00:28:39 cool, thanks 00:30:33 entry1: yep, that's the way 01:31:17 * avmtlpmm[m] uploaded an image: (99KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/FDrLiQUEZbBrKGOkgHTdXwit/b229.jpg > 01:37:15 entry1: The "correct" way is for Monero to become an unit of account 01:37:25 so instead of saying "pay $400", say "pay XMR 1" 01:37:52 in practice, monero is probably "too expensive" for this to work; there are aesthetic conerns with "pay 0.001 XMR" 01:38:32 but back in the day, things were priced in even numbers of bitcoins! 01:39:14 in practice, I don't think cryptos have a good shot at being such. People have an incentive to use dollars or euros, because it is legal tender, but there's no good reason not to use them as your unit of account even if transacting in XMR. 01:39:14 CRYPTO IS NOT CRYPTOCURRENCY ಠ_ಠ ~ IT REFERS TO CRYPTOGRAPHY, yanmaani 01:39:53 And that is fine, I guess, I'm more than happy transacting anonymous money that I happen to refer to in conveniently dollar-sized chunks. 01:40:15 <[r|y`a_n]> for that to work we'd need some kind of monero central bank to steer currency value 01:43:01 Anyone got a quick run down on the monero vs liquid bisq shitstorm on twitter? 01:46:55 is it a shitstorm? I thought it was a pretty short convo 01:47:18 Agreed, but the unit of account is too unstable in terms of monetary power. Most assets are compared relative to a currency that doesn't fluctuate in "value" so frequently. I do await the day that it does though. 01:47:36 [r|y`a_n]: basically, yes. 01:47:44 but another solution would be supply and demand 01:48:39 if you make it so that the difficulty doesn't fully adjust, and a higher hashrate means a higher emission, this would cause the emission to go up if prices go up, causing prices to temper. and if prices go down, and hashrates go down, difficulty would not drop quite as much, reducing the emission 01:48:43 where we put the decimal point is rather arbitrary. you could list prices in millinero instead 01:48:46 that is of course a terrible idea for other reasons 01:49:09 hyc: good point, but in practice people don't. Back when 1 XXX <= $1, they might have 02:02:29 dear community I am new to xmr 02:03:07 how can I get some coins to play with 02:05:14 There is the testnet, you can mine for a few weeks, or there is a faucet in this channel, command .faucet 02:06:25 any people can send me $2 as a tip? 02:12:49 my wallet address is 431HGFMRvpE5Ma2GtekB9b2hmTzc3MLZPKQu8UAhSar6NZwdQXV9dPbfQKwEriygsiJy1KhTja2GYXdTDhSePPpvHiRZRjn 02:13:27 Hello Friends 02:44:12 * bzfkbvcq[m] uploaded an image: (46KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/azfVryKrDIvvrZDdpEscqBag/b230.0.jpg > 02:46:59 FUK has bееn intеnsеly hostilе to Monеro for ovеr 4 yеars. Making minеrs for Monеro, making a pool for Monеro, making codе that Monеro copiеd, not using bugs to stеal millions from еxchangеs. Wow. Such grеat hostility. 03:03:45 why not address pattern autoban 04:11:17 * cahupfdowdi[m] uploaded an image: (47KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/LCSmhFgspYAonxRorQqUPkmn/b114.jpg > 05:03:08 Remember kids. If you call project coral reef for what it is - fluffypony embezzling half a mil usd from the monero fund for a website with smaller adoption than monero woo plugin, you will get excommunicated. Why do you think charities need Teslas? They don't and Elon won't support Monero 150k will sure buy a lot of party time for those that actually do get it. 05:31:11 are all monero open source hardware wallet projects dead (e.g. kastelo.org)? 05:31:49 Have not heard anything from Kastelo for a long time now. Don't know any other initiatives. Trezor and Ledger both work fine though 05:38:40 * gdfhdouptj[m] uploaded an image: (44KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/IGgYfrQJpQqAyzjUxNofNrZr/b230.6.jpg > 05:44:01 Inge-: don't know what it means or where it goes from here but just a few days ago it was mentioned by michael that there is a new chip that th 05:44:17 Wrong key lol 05:45:33 That has more capabilities and can handle monero more easily so it can do all the things needed 05:46:08 Hope that made some sense as I drift off to sleep 05:47:27 What's up with the spam? 05:48:19 kitty_hut[m], it's just some dick that has been doing it for as long as I can remember. 05:48:20 kitty_hut[m]: low-level effort to discredit the project 05:50:18 ah yeah, I very rarely lurk here and last time I looked at it I didn't recall this lol 05:54:03 Seems to me that this person and his coin was falling into obscurity, so needed to get a bit of PR going again 05:54:33 ah 05:55:11 "they just won't leave me alone" 06:04:00 Does anyone have recommendations on a company that offers kvm storage servers in exchange for Monero which is located outside of the 14 eyes? 06:08:09 Might even be a lost and forgotton, rogue bot now Inge- 06:26:52 Yknow, I'm mixed, its dissapointing more things like free and open source projects don't accept monero donations. Hmm... maybe I should set up something to convert monero to litecoin or something on temp wallets or something to donate, or I could just not donate to projects that don't accept crypto that isn't really trying to be a currency (like monero or possibly nano) lol 06:27:29 better option is to reach out to the projects you like and ask if they'd consider taking monero 06:27:51 fair point 06:29:08 That's primarily due to that fact that countries are regulating the hell out of Monero and other cryptocurrencies. They don't want anyone to use them, or I suppose more accurately, they want to control everyone who uses them. Most people tend to want to stay away from Monero and similar cryptocurrencies because of that alone. 06:29:38 guess I'm stubborn because for me that would be more of a reason to accept it LOL 06:29:44 Some simply want to stay away from Monero because it's seen as a "naughty" cryptocurrency for being, at least currently, impossible to track. 06:31:10 The more I get into hosting my own services and regaining control of my own privacy and data, the more I realize how badly I need to start my own ISP (so that I don't have an ISP tracking everything I do and get good speeds for fair rates) and my own VPS service for reasonable prices in good locations. 06:32:00 wait, wdym by your own ISP? I never honestly thought of that. Is that something that could be done with just a moderate server laying around or take actual startup level of funding? 06:33:18 Seriously depends on location. If you're in the united states, you need to be near the area that the internet cables enter the country which would be the East and West coast. Then there's the cost with laying cables, installing switches, all of that fun stuff. 06:34:29 Any plans to reduce 10 confirmations before balance unlock ? Can this be done after Triptych implementation? 06:34:29 Waiting 20 minutes for next payment is a real deal breaker and a first bad impression to new monero users 06:34:56 If it's just for you and the location isn't too far away, maybe $20,000 USD but that's seriously stretching it. It's typically $50,000 USD and up to start one and the easiest method for funding is fundraising from around the community. If your area has awful internet and only one or two ISP options, many people will back it. It's happened in many countries too for various reasons. 06:35:40 Once you get fundraising completed you can get others to sign onto your service to make the money back. 06:36:27 Interesting, thats actually something that some people could do, and sounds very cheap if multiple local people would be pitching in. 06:36:33 kitty_hut[m]: The Copyfree Initiative takes Monero, though it's not on the website yet. 06:37:24 Lots of graphics on this site but it says the cost that many people had to pay for their services. Keep in mind most of them are in rather remote areas which greatly increases costs due to laying fiber cables. 06:37:32 https://www.whoishostingthis.com/blog/2015/03/09/start-your-own-isp/ 06:38:29 kitty_hut[m]: also, accepting public-ledger coins can be a problem: https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/c7bw1h/question_what_is_someone_sends_me_stolen_funds/ 06:38:35 apotheon: ah, that looks neat. although, from my limited understanding I would have to support copyleft over copyfree, copycenter, ect. 06:39:53 That feels massively out of date. I can't see people really deploying w/ T1's any more for a half-way respectable ISP, even back in 2015. 06:40:06 nikg83[m]: There is no technical reason why funds could not be unlocked at once - HOWEVER, it would be bad for privacy. So to help protect everyones privacy, there is a 10-block unlock time. I agree it can be a hassle. But once you get a handle on managing outputs, it becomes manageable. 06:40:49 kitty_hut[m]: I'm opposed to anything that imposes friction in open source development, so I lean toward CI rather than FSF. 06:41:05 Copyleft licenses have severe issues with license incompatibility. 06:41:10

Yes, but there should be some research done to reduce it, maybe with higher ring size it would be possible? 06:41:54 apotheon: yeah it's great when big business can just take your code and give nothing back :D 06:42:13 copyright and IP situation sucks, but copyleft licenses are opting out of it harder than just public domaining your stuff or using something like the MIT license 06:42:34 What're you running into where the 10 block restriction is a real issue? 06:42:37 nikg83[m]: yeah maybe it can be revisited 06:42:38 asymptotically: It's also "great" when big business uses the GPL as an anticompetitive tool and to bilk open source devs into giving it free labor. 06:42:59 I suppose I should mention as well that starting your own ISP can be significantly cheaper if you opt to start it as a WISP. Basically, you operate through satellites and towers rather than fiber cables. 06:43:19 kijari: oh? 06:43:21 WISP's don't usually work off sats except maybe for the main downlink, they tend to use wifi. 06:43:24 Yeah, wireless stuff gets a lot better. 06:43:27 apotheon: when does that happen? even if you're required to sign a CLA, the code you contributed will always be usable under the GPL and nobody can take that away 06:43:40 s/better/cheaper for purposes of start-up costs/ 06:44:41 I'm not a dev in the slightest, but, I do know if I were to contribute to any project I would want it so that 1. anyone could modify and make their own forks and 2. any forks that get distributed are free and open, not used for properietary bs. 06:44:45 asymptotically: Sure, but then you get shit like "open core" (with the stuff that makes it most competitive being closed) or open source code for peripheral crap while the core is closed. 06:44:47 Funding by new wallet from exchange, then wanting to buy from 2 vendors ; it would take so much of time, atleast an hour ? 06:45:05 nikg83[m] - You can use multiple outputs on a single txn. 06:45:06 asymptotically: . . . and nobody else can compete without reinventing the world, then. 06:45:21 Pools do it all the time, paying out 15-20 people per txn. 06:45:48 Anyway, I take a "first do no harm" approach to things, rather than "try to nuke corporations and also harm a bunch of open source projects in the vicinity". 06:46:10 I just use one of two licences depending on how much I care. The "Do whatever the fuck you want" licence and I can't remember the name of the other one, but it makes it so that any improvements to the code must be given back to the project but forks, modification, redistribution, etc. are allowed as well. 06:46:24 gosh darn free software extremists ;D 06:46:34 Licensing is a pain. :D 06:46:51 Yes but what if I saw something else to buy after a minute of sending first payment ? 06:47:12 Snipa: Yeah, it is. Luckily, copyfree licenses tend to be very short. 06:47:16 nikg83[m] You just have to wait for it to unlock, or start making smaller withdrawls so you have multiple inputs/outputs available. 06:47:18 "pay devs, not lawyers" 06:47:29 WISPS are a far better way to run an ISP if you have less money to play with and your clientele are within maybe 20 miles or so. You can definitely go a lot further but it depends on what you want to accomplish and where your user base is. 06:47:58 honestly, I have never heard of WISPS, how do they compare? 06:48:03 The wallet doesn't lock entirely, just inputs less than 10 blocks old, so if you've got multiple inputs, the wallet will spend them efficiently so yoiu're not locking things up entirely. 06:48:12 I assume they are the slower cheaper option given the implication they are wireless? 06:48:42 Frankly though, bitcoin's about as bad, as a fair number of systems require a confirmation or two, btc just lets you keep spending future txns. 06:49:08 You can get multi-gig over wifi without too much of an issue (Ubiquiti is common in the space w/ their air-fiber) 06:49:35 it confuses me why bitcoin is even a thing, its dissapointing how far (what I presume is) brand loyalty and recognision can go (on top of investors) 06:49:39 Less stable due to it being well, wifi so a bit more effected by the environment and nature, but you're not trenching fiber and dealing with that red tape. 06:49:41 oh?> 06:49:51 WISPS are just wireless internet service providers and it's generally a faster connection to servers than cables (most of the time) while being far cheaper to setup. The issues arise from weather, interference depending on which frequency you are broadcasting at, and all of that fun stuff. 06:50:09 https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-airfiber/products/af-11 kitty_hut[m] 06:50:48 Ubiquiti has been working in the wisp space for awhile to provide better backhaul transit links. When I was considering moving somewhere rural, one of the plans was to get a decent connection in town then back-haul it using AF. 06:51:03 Basically, it's ideal for WISPS to provide internet to those within a set radius of their towers and that depends on their frequencies that are being used and the height of the towers. The higher the tower, the further the distance. 06:51:05 If you're in an area where you don't get interfering weather for long stretches, and you ensure a very high level of uptime for your equipment, your WISP can be at least as stable as Comcast. 06:51:07 Yes, but it’s not that easy to manage I/o specially on mobile wallets 06:51:25 On the topic of standards, god, its a shame things still use email so heavily. I would love to use matrix or xmpp or the such to send emails with instead from the normal chat client lol 06:51:49 I can't even purchase something online without a phone number and I don't even own a phone. 06:52:02 lol yeah thats also insane 06:52:15 phone numbers and emails as they are now should just die 06:52:51 I basically have to go to an electronics store and drop off a list of what they need to buy for me. Then I come back and charge their markup on everything because I have very few other choices and I refuse to pay for a phone number or get a phone. I have no use for either of them. 06:53:24 Email is great for asyncronous, multi-device work. 06:54:05 Phone numbers can go burn, but email is quite nice when you're working asyncroniously from people you need to contact. XMPP and the like are better for live comms, but that's what they were designed for. 06:54:21 yeah, honestly, companies should be either not required or even barred from collecting certain information about their clients 06:55:13 This is why I want to work for the developers of the Zyg programming languages. Non-profit organization, $48,000 USD/year salary, and they communicate on services such as mumble and matrix. It's amazing. 06:55:14 for the most part imo companies should just know they got money and have a dropbox or such to send it to, and then the mailing services would just know to pick up package labeled "asdflj3medds" and send it to a certain address. 06:56:05 * for the most part imo companies should just know they got money and have a dropbox or such to send it to, and then the (optional ofc) mailing services would just know to pick up package labeled "asdflj3medds" and send it to a certain address. 06:57:28 I want that to be a thing but I know damn well it isn't possible. It's why I'm somewhat interested in getting a lawyer in the future to look into the legalities behind starting an ISP or WISP. I want to know if I am required to obtain customer information, what is required, how long it must be stored for. You get the idea. It would be a really interesting subject to learn more on because every ISP I know of tracks 06:57:28 everything that every user does on their networks. If possible legally, I'd like to avoid that entirely and just not log anything. If I am forced to do logging, I'll just setup a WISP for myself and nobody else. 06:58:06 I swear the companies are not legally required to collect that information but they do it anyway for profit. 06:59:04 If they aren't required to they should be barred from it. Also, while unlikely any time in the near future, I doubt it would be impossible. Everything is impossible until it happens. 06:59:59 Very true. Flashbacks to when people were "crazy" because all phone calls were traces and recorded. Turns out they were right and then everyone was just like "Yeah. Whatever. We don't care." 07:00:31 Now we live in a world of google, amazon, and other companies knowing damn near everything about us with no consequences for the companies regardless of what happens. 07:00:53 I wonder how far tracking can be pushed until people start fighting back and demanding privacy again. Same for right to repair. 07:02:53 Just for clarification, no I was not around when that was a thing. Just reminded me of stories of it happening. 07:06:20 Unfortunately, as long as you justify something in terms of a need for "safety" or "security" it really seems like people's level of tolerance for overreach is really substantial. And the longer they are just use to it as a fact of life, the more comfortable they are with accepting virtually anything. I hope that I am wrong... 07:08:53 * qsndeugnz[m] uploaded an image: (69KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/RkuCltrdfkszvTZdeBvfOihx/b115.jpg > 07:09:49 I think you're pretty close to it Brian. People tend to accept it until eventually it oversteps their bounds and they rebel, but that often takes so long that it requires complete restructuring or systems to fix the long-lasting issues. 07:10:12 back 07:11:09 Welcome back. 07:12:49 Sorry for going back in time a bit. I was looking into starting an ISP or WISP and as it turns out, there is an entire community based around it and they have a matrix server as well. Just thought it was something really awesome which was worth sharing. 07:12:49 oh? that is very interesting. 07:15:04 Almost 1000 people in the room as well. That's far more than what I was expecting. 07:20:03 Not sure when this spreadsheet was last updated but it claims that the startup cost for a WISP is around $25,000 USD with a monthly maintenance cost of $3000 USD. I'd probably double that to give myself a buffer for everything but if this is anywhere near accurate, that's not bad at all. 07:24:42 * yarfvvsghej[m] uploaded an image: (59KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/NLuWTqtHyRPZyJvtqVLelcUi/b222.jpg > 07:25:08 what success did they have with Tor and i2p? https://i.redd.it/fypvfw6bkgw61.jpg 07:25:52 Inge-: What's that? 07:26:03 Also, why are there not mods actively removing the spam? 07:27:39 * Also, why are there not mods actively removing the FUDbots? 07:27:44 * Also, why are there not mods actively removing the FUDbot spam? 07:32:36 If you're referring to the government of America, they have on numerous occasions been able to setup enough Tor nodes to be able to identify users within the Tor and i2p networks. It's a constant battle between developers and near infinite funding. 07:36:28 I'm curious what the future of the battle will be, I wonder if there is a more sound way to go about something like Tor or I2P that would make sense for more broad appeal as well. 07:37:32 I know that the Loki Network exists and is trying to be "Tor 2.0" but I don't know how good it actually is or how it compares. I don't even know how easy it would be for someone to setup enough nodes to be able to identify users within the network. 07:41:26 Somehow I feel like its all being thought about wrong, but, I don't know nearly enough to know exactly how the problem would be solved, or even a rough idea. 07:41:35 afaik you need to stake their coin to become a full service node in loki network, so it would become expensive to try and own a large portion of nodes 07:41:47 ooo interesting 07:42:30 * kijari[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/dBOEzREYikheuoHoHJcTjvGb/message.txt > 07:42:37 * kijari[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/WDfJzusYtanfhChztdYWZWxM/message.txt > 07:43:14 Is there any indication on the pros/cons compared to things like tor/i2p? 07:43:24 I was ironically about to mention "I wonder if anyone has made a tor coin" 07:44:02 Very little information since that's just on the homepage, not a whitepaper, but at least it somewhat gives an idea of it. You have to stake to become a node in their network so it would become expensive to create multiple nodes but I don't know the minimum stake required or the cost of their token at the moment. I can take a look at that as well if you like. 07:44:26 * on a similar topic I was about to mention "I wonder if anyone has made a tor coin" 07:45:12 Their faq (https://lokinet.org/faq/) has information on how it compares to Tor if you're interested. It's probably better for me to link it instead of pasting a giant block here. 07:45:47 the minimum is 15000, which i think is now a constant. quite expensive for one person, you would have to do a staking pool unless you wanted to put up a lot of $ upfront 07:51:24 Okay, yeah. That's some serious money for one node. Oxen is around $2 USD each and you're required to stake a minimum of 15,000 Oxen to have a service node. In other words, you're staking $30,000 USD for a single service node. 07:55:07 nym is trying to be tor2.0 https://nymtech.net/#faq 07:57:38 Taking a look at their backers, it's extremely promising. I'm honestly not sure what will replace Tor but whatever it is, it's going to be a very long-winded transition. People don't change their privacy protocols overnight and it seems that many teams are trying to tackle this same issue. 08:08:34 nym or lokinet? 08:11:14 Regarding the backers they have and the fact that it seems rather promising? Nym. It is worth noting that Loki Net has backers as well. 08:12:43 * kijari[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/YIoiUEjiqdRsYBQqJCrCGeaK/message.txt > 08:13:24 Not really familiar with any of them, I have heard of binance but don't really care about investors in a sense lol 08:13:44 I am curious how well both of them work as a tor replacement, or the such 08:15:55 I don't really care who the backers are. I'm a tech person, I just care about which gets the job done better. As of right now through what I can see, Loki Net is further along but I can be completely wrong on that as I haven't used either of them. I'm basing that assumption on the fact that Loki Net has rather good documentation for everything and can be used right now whereas Nym has rather incomplete documentation and I 08:15:55 think is on a testnet. 08:16:34 Oh? I should look at the documentation of Loki Net, it seems like it would be fun to mess with. 08:16:59 I am very curious on its speed relative to tor, vpns, ect. VPN speed is usually liveable, but tor is often a bit painful for most people. 08:17:07 I am curious if it would be faster, slower, or about the same as tor. 08:19:34 * kwaajbjumhd[m] uploaded an image: (56KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/MnZYNhYFoXTqHSXYTxLxAbNM/b230.08..jpg > 08:21:13 It should be significantly faster because the network speed increases as more nodes become active which further distributes the load. It also supports ALL IP-based protocols, unlike Tor which exclusively uses TCP and has support for real-time voice communications. Loki Network is especially interesting because it isn't a browser. It can be used to route ALL internet traffic from any application through the network. 08:21:27 lokinet works, more average hops but doesnt seem slower than tor in my experience. 08:22:08 I mean, tor isn't a browser, but its often marketed that way which is quite annoying 08:22:10 and yeah as kijari says, supports any protocol. but their claims of gaming or video chats are a bit of a stretch imo. too much latency 08:22:28 Note that I say it should be faster. I don't know where the speed is at currently as I haven't used it as of yet. 08:23:27 I'd imagine that as the network gains more nodes it would get faster but I don't know how well that scales either. 08:24:39 I know Tor isn't a browser. It's just that it's generally the most common way that it's used at the moment. Orbot and similar applications exist but unfortunately there aren't any applications like that for desktops to my knowledge. If I'm wrong on that please do correct me as I'd love to take a look. 08:25:08 yeah, there really needs to be a push for tor-like networks to have vpn-styled setups for less technically knowledgeable users 08:27:23 Sorry for being off topic for a moment but why are people posting random Monero memes about it being a scam project when the coin has proven to be extremely resilient when it comes to tracking transactions? 08:27:51 because the spammer has a competing coin :) 08:28:00 I am confused why they aren't getting banned, but, it appears to be a low level fud campaign imo 08:29:08 they don't understand that the type of people that would visit this chat isn't the type of person to care about hype or who has dealt with a project. It's like telling a person considering joining nasa that some of the people that worked there used to be a nazi, non of them care. 08:30:53 Well, that explains it. Someone creating a "competing product". It's funny because most people that try that will just market it as "Imagine x but better" with no further details on how it works or how it's even improved or better. 08:31:25 Then proceed to never deliver on anything and abandon everything while walking away with the money they earned. 08:31:45 lol yeah, thats why I don't like things meant to be an investment first, rather than a tool first. 08:32:23 ooooooh, thought the competing coin lying dipshit from yesterday (discord) and the matrix spammer were 2 diff entities tho 08:33:03 I'm not sure. I just thought I'd ask about it because I found the entire thing to be rather off. 08:34:00 kitty_hut[m]: it's not really possible to ban them, they use fresh accounts + ip addresses for every message 08:34:10 ah 08:34:19 i mean, both using the "breaking monero" series to be like "lolol monero broken" while thats a thought experiment made by the ones working on monero like... the fuck is wrong with these people lmao 08:34:23 Loki Network plans to implement voice calling into Session at some point which is promising. It's on the roadmap but it may take a bit as they have some other priorities to address first. 08:34:34 we added some mitigations to other channels but not to #monero yet 08:35:05 also on the matrix side it is possible to hide the spam if we had more mods 08:35:43 As long as the problem is being worked on and the admins are aware of the problem. 08:36:30 ye, I wish them luck uwu 08:37:17 yknow 08:37:37 I am playing with nix, and the package manage can be a little bit weird sometimes, having nym but not loki lol 08:38:25 Its very extensive with pretty much only a few obscure packages missing (I am used to the AUR), but the things it does are the strangest 08:38:27 like 08:38:32 why would it have nym and not loki?/ 08:38:40 * why would it have nym and not loki in the directory or whatever? 08:38:58 I just use Gentoo and let me tell you that the issues with Gentoo packages are interesting to say the least. 08:39:45 The amount of programs that should work but aren't in the repository so someone either has to create their own repository and add it manually or manually update it which is annoying either way. 08:40:07 Gentoo, the fuck how much of a psychopath are u eh? :O 08:40:44 I have been meaning to try out gentoo sometime, how is it? 08:41:11 Space, you're talking to someone that wants to start their own ISP just because they can. I like experimenting, even if it ends up being extremely poor for me in the end. 08:42:52 kitty_hut[m]: it's the best :) everything just works. my favourite part is how you can safely mix and match stable and testing packages (so you're like your own debian backports team) 08:43:45 Gentoo is really good regarding speed. It's actually the fastest distribution to my knowledge because you can use ``USE`` flags. Basically, you tell the package manager which packages it should ignore completely (GNOME, KDE, Bluetooth, WiFi and so forth) as well as the hardware your PC specifically has which lets it build a package specifically tailored to your system. It sounds silly but those two factors combined can 08:43:45 speed up some parts of the experience a decent amount. It's going to be a smaller performance boost as you get newer hardware but it's still there. 08:44:37 yeah, I imagine gentoo would work well on older hardware, but, ironically, given it sounds like most stuff is via compiling sounds like it would also be hell via older hardware 08:44:39 afk 08:44:55 kijari[m]: it's not really any faster. anything that can be meaningfully sped up based on shiny new cpu extensions (like aes-ni or vectorisation extensions) is already done so on other distros 08:45:25 kijari: as someone that does everything in vms, would you recommend it for kvm stuff, gpu passthrough and all that stuff? like, performances-wise 08:45:28 Heads up if you try it and build packages for your specific CPU and other hardware: If you want to upgrade your system, you may be in for one hell of a ride. Changing the hardware with those flags is a complete pain so it's probably easiest to migrate by removing all ``USE`` flags regarding hardware, build the packages again, upgrade the system and then apply new ``USE`` flags. Honestly there's probably a better way but I'm 08:45:28 an idiot. 08:46:00 blursed idea: nix but gentoo 08:46:06 ok afk fr, ttyl 👋 08:46:32 Actually, Gentoo addresses that. If you have a raspberry pi for example, you can have all code compile on another system. It's quite nice to compile on a new PC for old hardware. Speeds everything up significantly. 08:51:13 I'm not sure. If you're doing it for the performance, it's probably not the most noticeable thing ever. If it's extremely old hardware then I would imagine that you may see a tiny increase but as Asymptotically said, other distributions have some of those optimizations already built-in. If you're debloating the kernel a lot then maybe a tiny boost but still not anything 08:51:13 too major. The main reason I prefer Gentoo is because I can remove stupid dependencies I have no use for. I use DWM and other suckless software so a program installing KDE or GNOME packages as well makes no sense whatsoever. 08:52:38 kijari[m]: go crazy, build everything with crazy new graphite optimisations, -march=native and CPU_FLAGS_X86 to match your system. build a kernel and only the modules you use, run a benchmark and observe... it's basically the same as any other distro (with slightly lower memory usage) 08:53:46 aight makes senses, tbh lately am just starting with a base ubuntu-server, if needing a gui just `sudo apt install xfce4` then stripping down the unnecessary by removing manually the snaps and all the things i dont need, like, its really fast to just spin up a new rig that way and no extra headache tryna figure whats up and whats what 08:56:09 I'd imagine that if there is a performance boost, it's 1% or under which is so minuscule it doesn't matter for anyone. That's if there is a performance boost. I just enjoy getting rid of all the packages I have no use for. Sudo is a big one. Just use Doas. It's a smaller program, far less bugs, and the same functionality if you only need root access. Sudo is still recommended for servers though. 08:56:18 * I'd imagine that if there is a performance boost, it's 1% or under which is so minuscule it doesn't matter for anyone. That's if there is a performance boost. I just enjoy getting rid of all the packages I have no use for. Sudo is a big one. Just use Doas. It's a smaller program, far less bugs, and the same functionality if you only need root access. Sudo is still recommended for servers though unless you use BSD. 08:56:56 thats good info :) 08:57:56 If I recall correctly from going down that rabbit hole, sudo has some features that server owners may need, hence why it is recommended. I can't for the life of me remember what it was for specifically but it has extra features some people use/need. 08:59:15 Another reason I prefer Gentoo is because I can replace components of the system to easy. I can replace my init system with something completely custom if I wanted to and it wouldn't care. Other operating systems have it built-in to such a degree that it takes some serious effort to change or remove. 08:59:58 was last year or so, there's been a security flaw with it that had to be patched asap but the counter argument that "who gives a fuck anyways" was more like that "anyone that has physical access to a linux rig owns the rig anyways" 09:00:23 Found the information I was looking for. 09:00:23 ``Doas is much simpler and not configurable, and is generally good for single-user boxes. Sudo is for boxes where not every user is root . ... some people like to use sudo to build elaborate sysadmin infrastructures with highly refined sets of permissions and checks and balances.`` 09:02:28 right, exactly, read something similar when there was the security flaw with sudo which lots of arguments that physical access is root and linux overall is not really meant to be multi-user in a physical way per say or something like that 09:03:33 That information is slightly incorrect by the way, hence why I say reddit is never a reliable source. My searx instance used reddit for a definition/comparison for some reason without citing the source. https://man.openbsd.org/doas.conf.5 has all of the options that doas can configure. 09:04:05 haha i see, searx instance, prob running your own gitea instances too hehe :3 09:05:06 Git, searx, email and other programs/applications. Looking for a storage slab that is affordable to host a Dendrite homeserver as well but that's been proving to be difficult since companies rarely accept Monero. 09:06:28 Dendrite is going to replace Synapse in the future in case you are wondering, or rather live in harmony with it. It's in beta currently so it's not recommended over synapse as of yet. I just like helping with beta applications with bug reports. 09:08:19 * spacekitty420[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/gJAnLnsDJIOxsJtpgMbbMFMH/message.txt > 09:09:01 I use njal.la for my domain registrar but nothing else for that exact reason. 09:12:43 Currently I'm hosting my VPS with cryptoho.st because they have so many plans for different use cases. I can setup a storage server through them rather easily but I'm seeing if cheaper options exist first. Main reason is because Dendrite doesn't have the admin API as of yet so there is no way to clear storage space by purging old data from your database. In other words, in due time it can use large amounts of disk space 09:12:43 with no way to currently clear that disk space due to the API not existing in Dendrite as of yet. 09:15:32 I'm also rather diligent with server locations as I want something outside of the 14 eyes, and if possible outside of the European Union. Just being outside of the 14 eyes alone seems to add a large premium for pricing. 09:15:48 OH FUCK :O 09:15:54 they are so affordable wtf :O 09:17:10 like, so far been very happy with ovh for year long uptime and whatnot, scaleway (arm architecture) was decent too and heard some good about contabo to spin some nodes on the cheap 09:17:10 tho, none were accepting crypto 09:20:19 * kijari[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/FVtKkfqwYAoDFCotgvpeefZQ/message.txt > 09:21:07 The payment issue can be forgiven but I imagine that a few people have probably never noticed the missing storage space. The missing storage space made me a bit mad for a while but they fixed it quite quickly. 09:21:49 contabo are pretty terrible. poor support, poor network, slow disk i/o on the vpses, oversold shared cores on the vpses too 09:24:40 right, misspoke on the contabo, heard it was cheap but fren that got them used to complain a fair bit too, my bad x) 09:25:56 As of right now the only decent storage VPS I can find is through edis.at which is unfortunate because their "storage VPS" is just an OpenVZ VPS. On the other hand, it's located in Iceland which is outside of the 14 eyes and the European Union. It's just slightly cheaper than if I did it through cryptoho.st if I recall correctly as well. 09:26:23 But I seriously prefer having a KVM VPS instead of an OpenVZ VPS. OpenVZ is somewhat awkward. 09:26:36 ```6 GB HDD NVME``` 09:26:36 ```€1/mo for 10 GB HDD extra``` 09:26:36 can you stack the offer for extra storage? like, lets say to run an xmr pruned node 09:26:48 If you want 100GB, they let you. 09:27:07 oh fuck oki that's awesome 09:27:25 Maximum is 350GB of storage extra according to the checkout page. 09:28:21 tho... thats hdd, not ssd so might still take a long while to sync up, 350gb is still enough for a btc full node too so thats great 09:28:48 Just make sure that when the VPS is up you instantly check the storage available with ``fdisk -l`` and make sure it matches what you're paying. If not, open a support ticket. That may have been a one time error but it's better to be sure. 09:29:20 yup usually doing `df -Th` :P 09:29:47 Support is rather quick as well. Typically resolve issues within 1-2 days which isn't a deal breaker because support tickets are most common when you just purchased a VPS anyway. 09:30:02 like, if have to manually had a swap file cause not enough ram to compile something or something something :P 09:30:26 yup thats fair :) 09:32:17 well fuck, thank you so much for those links and all the info, had completely given up on the idea to figure out vps through crypto so... yeah, thank you alot <3 09:33:56 Trust me, it took some serious digging to find. 09:34:36 Oh, and by the way, you can fill out completely fake information for your "Personal Information". They don't fact check anything and never use it again beyond support tickets. VPNs for signing up are completely allowed as well. 09:35:45 The service is dedicated to the journalists that lost their lives due to not being able to share finding anonymously. As long as you follow their Terms of Service which are extremely brief, they don't care. https://cryptoho.st/clients/index.php?rp=/knowledgebase/2/Terms-of-Service.html 09:39:21 thats really amazing and very heartwarming to know there's still some of these services out there that fighting the good fight for individual freedom and all that good stuff <3 09:41:03 as cheesy as it may sound, you just made my day :3 09:41:59 Oh, and because I mentioned edis.at earlier, upon looking at reviews I can't recommend them. Apparently their "looking glass" that shows server ping and network speeds isn't reflective of the actual service. Their control panel only has an on-off button with no other information, support is terrible, and apparently their actual service has the worst ping of any service some users have used with really terrible performance. 09:41:59 If that's the case as I'm seeing on the reviews on multiple sites, I'm avoiding them completely. 09:43:26 It's just awkward because there's some really good reviews and some that are extremely bad. It's really mixed. 09:47:05 haha oki, got it bookmarked just in case but figured cryptoho.st would have been the go-to as am more used to kvm stuff overall but thanks for the headsup :) 09:47:25 Honestly, edis.at is only a few euros cheaper than getting the same storage from cryptoho.st and it's worth mentioning that cockbox.org is slightly cheaper if their HDD VPS (Romania) plans for 120GB and/or 240GB are in stock. Price difference rises as storage space gets bigger. 09:47:29 They are very rarely in stock on cockbox.org for those plans though so if you can't wait and need storage, I'd say cryptoho.st is the better way to go. 09:48:34 "Cockbox — Yeah it's servers with cocks" 😹 09:48:41 i ded x) 09:48:42 super ded 09:50:34 :D 09:50:57 I love the owner. He started the company and his first public announcement about it was "Hi, I'm the owner of cockbox.org and I don't know what I'm doing but I own and email service called cock.li where I also don't know what I'm doing but it has lots of users so I must be doing something right. If you want a reliable server that doesn't randomly crash or lose connection, don't buy my services. I don't know what I'm doing". 09:50:57 Not the exact words but very similar to what he said. 09:51:30 haha yeah i like it already :P 09:52:00 * kijari[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/fFUBTOfZekTKwlOEDAjXbEaG/message.txt > 09:52:11 * kijari[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/lSVcrzeIVgtJTVFEyedMQLJQ/message.txt > 09:52:24 * kijari[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/HobnRyOwmCAMlQTqbEVSWECt/message.txt > 09:52:34 * kijari[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/eOfDMTPeViMIuaOzuXpwCBtp/message.txt > 09:52:40 * spacekitty420[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/pVqqlORmskxtdLLZVFgtisXX/message.txt > 09:52:47 Quoted from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12723061 because I can't get the formatting right. 09:52:48 matrix was a mistake 09:53:04 * spacekitty420[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jThwkntcXLWBMTurfvDvKEzJ/message.txt > 09:53:32 * spacekitty420[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/LnEIIzVrXLauYKPaIuqIvYcY/message.txt > 09:53:44 * spacekitty420[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/UjfcUwUnWwTQjqbwPtvueNNx/message.txt > 09:53:45 I'm sorry asymptotically. I bursted in here at random today and now I'm ruining everything. 09:54:09 * kijari[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/HBUqJgWbGciLvzZROkGZxNqn/message.txt > 09:54:10 oof, same LOL 09:54:28 sowry asymptotically x) 09:54:33 this is what good god fearing, red blooded people see https://i.imgur.com/ustKjXb.png 09:55:03 Oh god. It's an abomination. I love it. 09:55:12 and discord side: 09:55:12 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/620459189097201669/837990530422931496/unknown.png 09:55:18 jfc, sowry x) 09:55:43 https://cock.li/help is just as good as cockbox.org but it's his email site. 09:55:57 IRC light mode is awful, how could you asymptotically? 09:56:09 I think its the bot that gone poo poo 09:56:11 I'll stop using code blocks unless I need to so I can avoid creating massive abominations like that in the future. 09:56:14 Matrix uses json formats 09:56:48 jonah_xd[m]: the bridge turns multi-line messages into a paste link, and editing a matrix message causes it to be resent. it's working as intended - the intentions are just poor :P 09:57:00 Snipa: i'm a mole and need big dark letters on a bright screen to see them :( 09:57:10 omfg what is happening to this place? 09:57:36 wat 09:58:13 Clearly, we're in the matrix, and it's taking over. 09:58:19 spacekitty420: If you thought cockbox was funny, read the domains he has available on cockli. It's a good laugh but some may not appreciate the domains he owns. 09:58:19 Isn't there a character limit on m? 09:58:36 Probally, but it's also probally longer than IRC's. 09:58:36 not that i know of 09:58:43 you can paste full essays 09:58:50 IRC has extremely short character limits per-message. 09:59:17 Maybe they took the old school discord approach. Don't show a character limit but secretly have one in the backend where nobody can see it. Then super long messages get cut off at random because why not? 09:59:20 and when you change one word in the essay it reposts the whole thing on IRC 10:00:22 whether matrix is a mistake or not is debatable, but the undeniable fact is that matrix-IRC bridge is a mistake 10:00:50 * svvqmkmm[m] uploaded an image: (59KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/fTrfHBkswhFDLmiSiHwdruGA/b222.jpg > 10:01:02 i think that applies to basically all bridges 10:01:15 why? I think it's an interesting project 10:01:43 I think that the owner of the two sites knows how to advertise. Look at this masterpiece. https://cock.li/img/cockbox.png 10:02:01 well... maybe irc is the mistake tbh 10:02:15 been telling yall for years that irc for hipster boomers 10:02:29 it leaks your ip address to the whole chat too, like wtf, who does that? 10:02:40 Badly configured IRCD's mostly. 10:02:47 I used IRC for a while. Then IRC required me to make an account and I left in an instant. 10:02:56 The fed does that 10:02:59 I'm a zoomer and use IRC, it's so lightweight 10:03:18 Setup bouncer, don't care after that. Not like you have to use real registration information. 10:03:27 spacekitty420[m], you just need to set a vhost or a bouncer 10:03:35 Or both. :) 10:03:47 Funny thing freenode doesn't allow tor IPs to register 10:03:59 That's because tor-sasl is a thing. 10:04:18 So you have to register off tor, then sasl auth on your way in over tor, most likely due to abuse. 10:04:20 You need to register as normal before using tor sasl 10:04:31 According to this one document i found 10:04:37 yea 10:04:37 they are working on a proof of work system to allow tor users to register (soonTM) 10:04:38 I'll just stick to matrix. Then I don't hurt my eyes reading poorly formatted messages. 10:04:46 still, thats the whole debate "privacy by default, not on 2nd layer" like... you know, the whole btc - xmr debate thingy.. 10:04:57 maybe u can just register via matrix via tor 10:05:02 loophole 10:05:26 Id rather wait for half life 3 to be released 10:05:48 kijari[m]: yes you just hurt everyone elses eyes on IRC with your poorly formatted matrix-irc bridge messages :p 10:06:23 Can you do markdown on irc ? 10:06:30 The only thing I did was add a basic code block. 10:06:33 it could be done better, but that would require limiting matrix functionality in bridged rooms 10:06:41 Then I tried fixing my stupid formatting like 5 times. 10:07:02 the beauty of irc is its simplicity and the fact that clients are so lightweight they run on everything 10:07:07 jonah_xd[m]: no. but there are poorly standardised things for basic formatting like colours and bold 10:07:15 we both did at same time yeah x) 10:07:20 Technically, you could do markdown on IRC, but most clients won't support it. 10:07:25 no code blocks, no editing, no 'pasted long message' for one word replies 10:08:19 Aah, monero is at 420! 10:08:35 Yeah, I'm a complete degenerate. Sorry, I tend to forget bridges exist on an extremely frequent basis. I'll do my best to not create monstrosities like I did earlier. 10:08:43 What about ~~remove~~ and __underline__ 10:08:51 This i fucked them up 10:09:02 * Shit i fucked them up 10:09:07 you can underline, i don't think there's a strikethrough 10:09:32 Neither here 10:09:51 Lemme look at markdown doc 10:11:07 kijari[m]: dont hate the player. hate the game :p 10:11:45 Anyway, I'm glad I could help in some way. Finding Monero services is extremely difficult and I'm just happy I found one that's affordable. 10:12:01 I say keep doing it. then they are forced to fix it ;) 10:12:02 <3 10:12:57 I actually came across them through https://www.getmonero.org/community/merchants/#hosting and they were one of the only hosting providers that had the features I needed. Mainly an open port 25 so I can setup the necessary evil that is email. 10:13:32 That and I have a tendency to sometimes use 40TB and beyond in bandwidth and they have an unlimited bandwidth. 10:16:47 oh right! i been checking on the merchants page yesterday but might have missed on the vps section, like, saw the store that do sell some ryzen cpus like 3900, 3900x and such but tbh, just wish they would add threadrippers like some bigger ones 10:17:09 they have like.. electric bikes up to $3k so guessing they could sell some cpu for few thousands as well 10:19:45 https://shopinbit.com/en/electronics/cpus/ 10:22:30 I checked out coincards.com (may have the wrong link here, I can never remember it) as well and it seems rather promising. Spend crypto, get a gift card you can use almost anywhere you want. 10:22:51 Downside is that it's only in Canada and the USA at the moment but there are similar companies in business as well. 10:23:21 dang, yup and then europe will be UK only apparently 10:23:36 thats a great idea tho, like, amazong gift cards through crypto and whatnot 10:24:08 oh! thats what happened with mullvad too recently, since they werent adding an xmr node, those guys bought a fuck load of vouchers and selling them for xmr instead 10:24:31 now they an official reseller for mullvad straight up on the website too 10:27:24 Honestly, good for those companies for finding ways to make massive amounts of cryptocurrency. 10:28:05 haha yeah :P 10:28:24 Unfortunately every country seems to want to tax cryptocurrency income but still. 10:28:52