00:02:08 <nioc> monero didn't come from bitmonero, it is bitmonero
00:02:53 <nioc> I believe the name is in the code till this day
00:04:42 <nioc> confirmed, my daemon log is bitmonero.log
00:06:40 <rupee[m]> maybe we should go back to that name. see if we can get some exchanges to list it
00:06:45 <lord_fomo[m]> guy seems like a c++ snob
00:06:46 <lord_fomo[m]> no offense
00:06:53 <lord_fomo[m]> i mean
00:07:01 <lord_fomo[m]> pretty sure derive is common parlance
00:07:04 <fluffydonkey[m]> c++ is nasty :(
00:07:16 <lord_fomo[m]> ala https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6366
00:07:22 <lord_fomo[m]> but 🤷‍♂️
00:07:27 <lord_fomo[m]> anyway the memes in their are good
00:07:31 <lord_fomo[m]> even if their devs are a bit tooly
00:07:49 <fluffydonkey[m]> Go forever
00:07:55 <fluffydonkey[m]> The language*
00:08:02 <lord_fomo[m]> lol
00:08:05 <lord_fomo[m]> generics wen
00:08:16 <lord_fomo[m]> i like zig better then go personally
00:08:19 <lord_fomo[m]> and nim is close 2nd
00:09:37 <apotheon> There are things about Nim that I really don't like.
00:11:16 <apotheon> Food was good.
00:19:57 <lord_fomo[m]> https://www.coindesk.com/north-korea-is-expanding-its-monero-mining-operations-says-report
00:20:04 <lord_fomo[m]> https://decrypt.co/10660/monero-more-dangerous-than-bitcoin-says-german-finance-ministry
00:20:11 <lord_fomo[m]> https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2020/09/14/irs-will-pay-up-to-625000-if-you-can-crack-monero-other-privacy-coins/?sh=44bf70df85cc
00:20:19 <lord_fomo[m]> i guess i'm on fud duty tonite
00:22:46 <apotheon> If the German finance ministry says Monero is more dangerous than Bitcoin, I think that's a good endorsement for Monero.
00:23:09 <apotheon> aaaaaaaaaaaa: The name abcdefg is unregistered, and is about as generic as you can get for a name.  Grab it, and use that.
00:23:25 <aaaaaaaaaaaa> Will it make u feel more safe and secure with my presence
00:23:35 <apotheon> sure
00:24:10 <abcdefg> There u go
00:24:18 <apotheon> woohoo
00:26:20 <louipc> u lernin the alfabet
00:26:46 <apotheon> abcdefg: I was mostly just trying to help you have a name that won't annoy channel ops.
00:28:06 <abcdefg> I'm no longer banned from Monero-pools
00:28:09 <abcdefg> Its a sign
00:28:10 <apotheon> good
00:28:16 <apotheon> for you
00:28:29 <apotheon> "It's a sign!"
00:28:32 <apotheon> "A sign of what?"
00:28:37 <apotheon> "Yield, I think."
00:29:05 <louipc> u should have the max number of As in your nick and realname and username
00:29:35 <louipc> also hostname
00:30:29 <abcdefg> That would be next level
00:32:26 <louipc> also email address
00:47:28 <nioc> lord_fomo[m]: nice old news you provide
00:47:40 <nioc> 2019
00:47:47 <nioc> it's 2021 now
00:47:52 <nioc> I think
00:49:24 <lord_fomo[m]> i'm just proxying
00:49:29 <lord_fomo[m]> good thing you read the dates
00:49:34 <lord_fomo[m]> i was just liquidating
00:49:43 * lord_fomo[m] pounds buy buttonz
00:51:02 <apotheon> 00:47 < nioc> I think
00:51:04 <apotheon> congrats
01:38:33 <somethingUniqueR> .val 0.008882 xmr
01:38:33 <Wallet> somethingUniqueR: ≈$2.3875 • ≈ value of: 0.008882 XMR • Source: cmc/ccc/altm
02:51:29 <lord_fomo[m]> svag:
03:16:43 <lord_fomo[m]> https://medium.com/concoda/cryptocurrencies-are-about-to-tear-our-society-apart-e0325415be4f
03:17:14 <orly_owl> wont happen
03:17:23 <lord_fomo[m]> > Despite its toxicity and divisiveness, the decentralist-centralist divide is likely to persist and will come to change more than how people think in society. It will determine how society is designed and laid out. It will bring about the mainstream adoption of decentralized areas, with the pioneer model being “private cities”. The easy way to think about a private city is to imagine Monaco without the royal family 
03:17:23 <lord_fomo[m]> the excessive wealth. Citizens are not exactly rich or completely “free” as they still live under the rule of law of the host country. Though, as private cities have rules themselves, usually low taxes and lower regulations that the host country has agreed upon, citizens do have more economic “freedoms” (which is somewhat subjective).
03:17:36 <lord_fomo[m]> apotheon: kinda wat we were talkin
03:18:44 <lord_fomo[m]> it's gonna be full on blade runner
03:26:00 <apotheon> lord_fomo[m]: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
03:26:33 <orly_owl> good
03:30:22 <gingeropolous> tasty typo: Instead, the laws of numbers, maths, and psychics run society.
03:32:13 <apotheon> "let's live in dystopia"
03:32:19 <orly_owl> ^
03:32:36 <apotheon> Why?
03:35:30 <apotheon> I'm curious about what about it you like for the real world.
03:44:00 <lord_fomo[m]> it's gud if ur into botz like harrison
03:44:14 <lord_fomo[m]> it's bad if ur into not wearing long jackets
03:45:14 <lord_fomo[m]> can't find my pants
04:25:04 <Mumuks[m]> <lord_fomo[m] "can't find my pants"> It is ok old man
04:30:20 <Mumuks[m]> <lord_fomo[m] "> Despite its toxicity and divis"> I love how butthurt he sounds that people will be more free and busybodies like him will not be able to control others so much
04:31:41 <aaaaaaaaaaaa> Oh my name is back
04:40:39 <lord_fomo[m]> <Mumuks[m] "It is ok old man"> they were in the drawer
04:40:46 <lord_fomo[m]> was pikering all day
04:41:53 <lord_fomo[m]> look what y'all did
04:41:54 <lord_fomo[m]> https://cointelegraph.com/news/signal-under-fire-over-mobilecoin-partnership
04:42:04 <lord_fomo[m]> 🚨
04:42:32 <legrenfroag[m]> heylo frens, i heard xmr was "exploited" and can now be tracked. is that bs?
04:43:17 <lord_fomo[m]> ur mum tell you that
04:43:29 <legrenfroag[m]> jes
04:43:49 <lord_fomo[m]> man this place is gettin more awesome
04:44:19 <lord_fomo[m]> ur mam sounds like she's into fud
04:44:31 <legrenfroag[m]> big fud yes
04:46:05 <selsta> >Regarding circulating supply, we are still working with our lawyers to determine what we can and can't say here.
04:46:16 <selsta> that sounds shady lol
04:51:39 <Mumuks[m]> <selsta "that sounds shady lol"> As fuck
04:53:09 <lord_fomo[m]> k where tf is svag
04:53:51 <lord_fomo[m]> this is bridged to irc right?
04:56:32 <lord_fomo[m]> <legrenfroag[m] "heylo frens, i heard xmr was "ex"> u might wanna provide proof of claim
04:56:48 <lord_fomo[m]> in order to get a grump zone going
05:10:21 <danielk[m]> <lord_fomo[m] "https://medium.com/concoda/crypt"> Great! Thx for sharing! U should read "free private cities" from Titus Gebel, mindblowing book!!!
05:34:32 <u9000[m]> « lord_fomo: this is bridged to irc right? » yes
05:35:34 <u9000[m]> that's why many people's names are "freenode_alice" (instead of just "alice")
05:55:24 <oiuiki> My node won't sync beyond a certain point. Is anyone up for helping me to trouble shoot this?
06:02:45 <fehho[m]> Sounds like a problem that can be solved by popping some blocks.
06:11:49 <oiuiki> how would I pop blocks?
06:17:27 <dEBRUYNE> oiuiki: Might be corrupted, did you incur an unexpected shutdown?
06:17:54 <oiuiki> I did!
06:18:45 <oiuiki> I got it figured out now I think after some googling about popping blocks and now I get why it happened
06:19:06 <rrznadsac> Dear fireice_uk. I must strongly object to you reporting our great Monro community members to Freenode for racism AND getting people K-lined as a result! i.imgur.com/R0T9GGY.png THEY ARE NOT NEO-NAZI!!! THEY ARE JUST SAYING NEO-NAZI THINGS!! i.imgur.com/JYu44As.png I know this because they have been nice to me and made me their Magical Crypto Friend! If you don't cease immediately I shall throw another tantrum!
06:19:06 <rrznadsac> Monero Community Member PS. You are interrupting my session of masturbation to The Man in the High Castle.
06:21:23 <legrenfroag[m]> dropping xrm rn
06:21:27 <legrenfroag[m]>  * dropping xmr rn
06:22:16 <oiuiki> are posts like that frequent?lol
06:22:24 <sech1> Every day
06:22:55 <dEBRUYNE> oiuiki: All right, let me know if you need any further assistance
06:23:15 <legrenfroag[m]> maybe because the payment processors have band all the jew haters
06:23:20 <legrenfroag[m]>  * maybe because the payment processors have bannd all the jew haters
06:24:02 <oiuiki> Thanks! I will. I think I got it though.
09:07:59 <cer> Hi there, monerod takes it time to sync, but it only uses 14% of CPU on 100 MBit connenction. Is it possible to setup monerod to use like 75 % CPU? Thanks
09:13:12 <cer> basically monerod uses only 1 core on a 8 core machine. How to setup monerod for using more than 1 core?
10:56:32 <qay1> Hi community,
10:56:32 <qay1> I have some problems to start Monero on a RaspberryPi 4 8GB arm64.
10:56:32 <qay1> Installed is a Raspbian for arm64
10:56:32 <qay1> Kernel
10:56:32 <qay1> 5.10.0-0.bpo.4-arm64
11:58:23 <clavi> name one reason why I shouldn't just ban OVH IPs from my monerod
12:10:54 * Inge- listens to crickets
12:59:31 <gingeropolous> qay1, what are the problems?
14:15:59 <pvzxviyek> What kind of person steals from their own community? www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6d6okb/what_fluffypony_just_did_is_not_ok/
14:40:36 <ooga_booga[m]> let's cancel fluffy just for lulz
14:41:18 <ooga_booga[m]> as leftists do it with RMS now
14:42:04 <charolastra> do we have any rumor on him?
14:42:49 <rupee[m]> I heard he helps animals and volunteers time towards open source projects
14:43:58 <charolastra> female animals?
14:44:16 <ooga_booga[m]> no no no stop it it's just a joke...
14:44:24 <charolastra> :P
14:46:37 <ooga_booga[m]> oh, I have a question about Monero. I like this project but I don't know how to make my zoomer donation page more normie-oriented. Like you know when follower presses "PaYpAL" and pays money directly. Maybe some resources exists to make donations/payments/etc more usable?
14:47:02 <ooga_booga[m]>  * oh, I have a question about Monero. I like this project but I don't know how to make my zoomer donation page more normie-oriented. Like you know when follower presses "PaYpAL" and pays money directly. Maybe some resources exist to make donations/payments/etc more usable?
14:47:34 <charolastra> there are wordpress plugins that can do monero
14:47:41 <nc1236[m]> Just drop your XMR address with a QR code
14:48:11 <charolastra> but yeah, for donations a QR code is enough
14:49:06 <nc1236[m]> If they have XMR (and aren't learning about it for the first time), that should be more than enough
14:49:53 <ooga_booga[m]> <charolastra "there are wordpress plugins that"> I thought maybe exists some website or exchanger that can automatize it.
14:50:02 <ooga_booga[m]> > <@freenode_charolastra:matrix.org> there are wordpress plugins that can do monero
14:50:03 <ooga_booga[m]>  * I thought maybe exists some website or exchanger that can automatize it.
14:50:57 <ooga_booga[m]> nc1236: not for normies, they should just press "give money" and forget about it, who will use monero in our lazy world
14:53:39 <charolastra> so you want credit card payments?
14:57:53 <ooga_booga[m]> <charolastra "so you want credit card payments"> idgaf about what type of money they send but i want to receive XMR
14:59:33 <charolastra> oh, so you're looking for a payment provider that will convert paypal, CC, ... payments and sends XMR. i don't think anything like that exists
15:00:02 <charolastra> i think there are some for BTC. you could add the extra step to end up with xmr
17:14:03 <sethsimmons> https://twitter.com/jehrenhofer/status/1380566462344101899?s=21
17:18:01 <charolastra> LOL "The INCREASE in Monero's transactions from February to March exceeds the # of fully shielded transactions in Zcash's entire history."
17:18:28 * usernetinternet[ uploaded an image: (111KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/QhyFvPqLuoyYCDPnZEFqNFZK/dpla8iyklap61.jpg >
17:19:37 <usernetinternet[> <sethsimmons "https://twitter.com/jehrenhofer/"> "Im sorry your zCash despoit was frozen because your zcash was involved in a private transaction"
17:19:56 <sethsimmons> <charolastra "LOL "The INCREASE in Monero's tr"> spitting fire
17:20:34 <legrenfroag[m]> zee cesh is dah bettar coein
17:22:03 <legrenfroag[m]> pov: you're about to delete your zcash wallet
17:22:04 * legrenfroag[m] uploaded an image: (2295KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/FpQNtIgThOIQTLXrXptGQUYi/1617945598769.jpg >
17:34:38 <yanmaani> recommend me a decent btc to xmr exchange that doesn't rape you with the captcha
17:34:43 <yanmaani> no kyc, has to allow tor
17:36:56 * usernetinternet[ uploaded an image: (340KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/IMQGLuTAgAdbGUYuyUXJfqnu/1617986550616.png >
17:37:03 <usernetinternet[> Found this imagine online
17:37:10 <usernetinternet[> For getting xmr without kyc
17:39:37 <lza_menace> anyone know if the presentation fluffyp used in this video is available for download? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe5QPDLk0mE
17:42:24 <entry1> I like how he made all those pics to just say USD -> Coinbase LTC -> Cake Wallet XMR. But hopefully that is helpful to some people other than fiat to XMR on LM
17:42:41 <entry1> The more diversity the better
17:42:42 <legrenfroag[m]> is exodus wallet any good?
17:43:34 <legrenfroag[m]> https://www.exodus.com/
17:43:58 <usernetinternet[> <entry1 "I like how he made all those pic"> Litecoin is better if you just want to transfer than btc because of the much lower fees
17:44:47 <picoq[m]> usernetinternet: isn't Cardano even lower fee?
17:46:14 <entry1> I mean why even give litecoin or give any other coin business to buy when you can do xmr for cash? I don't think there should be any barrier coin to use to obtain or sell xmr
17:47:45 <usernetinternet[> <entry1 "I mean why even give litecoin or"> Some countrys ban it and some people dont trust sending cash so online no kyc exchanges are good
17:48:53 <entry1> Agreed, but you're still tying your identity to crypto which sucks. I mean of course its good to be able to exchange to xmr from other coins, but it shouldn't be a go to method because you're driving up the value of other coins
17:49:40 <entry1> Not taking away merit at all from getting into monero, just pathetic it has to come to that
18:06:46 <yanmaani> usernetinternet[: I already have BTC, I don't want to use a phone
18:07:31 <usernetinternet[> <yanmaani "usernetinternet: I already have "> You can change via changeNow on desktop
18:07:59 <usernetinternet[> Changenow is the swap service that cakewallet uses
18:10:25 <abcdefg> How much can you exchange btc to xmr on change now via cake wallet before they ask for KYC?
18:20:03 <donkeydonkey[m]> <legrenfroag[m] "https://www.exodus.com/"> its a nice wallet for shitcoining
18:21:15 <abcdefg> Did I miss the answer
18:21:20 <abcdefg> My connection keeps dropping no idea why
18:21:30 <abcdefg> On how much u can exchange via cake b4 kyc
18:22:04 <moneromooo> -!- abcdefg [~aaaaaaaaa⊙csrrc] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]   --  do you close the lid maybe ?
18:22:39 <moneromooo> (and there was no reply)
18:23:02 <abcdefg> No
18:23:09 <abcdefg> I was using my laptop lol
18:23:15 <abcdefg> moneromooo
18:24:21 <abcdefg> I'm using xchat azure should I switch to a different IRC client maybe
18:25:16 <usernetinternet[> <abcdefg "How much can you exchange btc to"> No kyc at all
18:26:01 <abcdefg> usernetinternet[ even for 10k+
18:29:38 <raas[m]> At trezor suite I read that changenow does kyc on suspicious tx. But refunds  before kyc...
18:39:45 <picoq[m]> What makes a transaction "suspicious"?
18:45:02 <usernetinternet[> <picoq[m] "What makes a transaction "suspic"> In the eyes of chainanalysis firms, every single tranaction by users they dont have the entire life history of
18:45:18 <picoq[m]> usernetinternet: Jerks.
18:48:33 <as2333> where's the dex for gold/silver <---> monero?
18:51:55 <rupee[m]> <as2333 "where's the dex for gold/silver "> r/pmsforsale
18:52:10 <apotheon> PMS?
18:52:16 <apotheon> . . . for sale?
18:52:26 <rupee[m]> precious metals
18:52:30 <apotheon> ah
18:53:00 <rupee[m]> hard to have a very effective decentralized exchange for something that requires physical delivery
18:54:36 <usernetinternet[> <rupee[m] "hard to have a very effective de"> Would probably need some sort of escrow to hold funds but then that defeats the point
18:54:59 <yanmaani> as2333: localmonero's the closest you get
18:55:14 <as2333> I see
18:55:40 <rupee[m]> is openbazaar ded?
18:56:23 <yanmaani> but in reality, the liquidity is gonna be much better by crossing into USD
18:56:38 <as2333> rupee[m], well, you can have a decentralized 'platform' to arrange the deals. Delivery is a problem to be solved by the parties involved.
18:56:40 <usernetinternet[> If you really wanted to have no connection i would rent a few megahash from a mining rig rental service and get monero from mining😂
18:57:20 <somethingUniqueR> .val 0.010483 xmr
18:57:36 <yanmaani> as2333: how to solve scamming?
18:58:07 <yanmaani> the realistic option: auction your gold bars on ebay, take the money you get and buy monero
18:58:19 <rupee[m]> yeah
18:58:22 <as2333> meh
18:58:26 <yanmaani> usernetinternet[: the rig rental service can connect it, though?
18:58:36 <yanmaani> Just buy monero with KYC and then move it to a new wallet, problem solved...
19:02:11 <usernetinternet[> <yanmaani "Just buy monero with KYC and the"> Yeah unless you believe you are being hunted by the cia just buy it on an exchange
19:03:15 <apotheon> abcdefg: 18:49 -!- abcdefg [~aaaaaaaaa⊙csrrc] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
19:03:24 <apotheon> abcdefg: in case the quit message helps at all
19:03:27 <abcdefg> No idea lol
19:03:44 <apotheon> What OS are you using?  Is this a laptop?
19:07:02 <abcdefg> Yeah
19:07:07 <abcdefg> macOS Big Sur
19:07:11 <apotheon> hm
19:07:15 <abcdefg> The new MacBook Pro with the apple m1
19:07:19 <as2333> rupee[m], by the way your reddit suggestion is the centralized-NSA exchange. Not exactly what I had in mind.
19:07:38 <rupee[m]> heh
19:07:38 <apotheon> Can you turn off its sleep-on-lid-close?  Maybe something's borked with that.
19:07:58 <abcdefg> Whats weird is I'm not even closing the lid
19:08:09 <apotheon> abcdefg: . . . or maybe you should just set up a tmux session on an always-on system and run a console-based IRC client in tmux.
19:08:46 <apotheon> That's why I said maybe something is borked; maybe it's doing something untoward related to poor management software or glitchy sensors or something like that.
19:08:46 <Quotes> Feel bork inc.® https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muLAN-kP5pE
19:08:50 <abcdefg> Let me look into that
19:08:58 <abcdefg> I'm using xchat azure
19:09:04 <abcdefg> I think its related to the IRC client honestly
19:11:12 <apotheon> Try another client, I guess.
19:16:57 <apotheon> .faucet
19:17:04 <apotheon> No?
19:17:31 <apotheon> okay, Wallet is AWOLet
19:19:53 <apotheon> Wallet: help
19:20:11 <apotheon> help me, Rhonda
19:29:22 <PapuaHardyNet> .wallet
19:33:48 <moneromooo> as2333: can you link the evidence ?
19:47:40 <picoq[m]> <apotheon "help me, Rhonda"> Good one. Showing your age!
19:48:28 <as2333> moneromooo, evidence for the nature of reddit?
19:50:42 <apotheon> That song is slightly older than me.
19:51:24 <moneromooo> for "centralized-NSA exchange".
19:51:57 <moneromooo> Also, what you mean by that.
19:52:21 <picoq[m]> Beach Boys stuff is great
19:52:32 <moneromooo> Or is it just "they're a central company, so they're pwned" ?
19:52:39 <apotheon> moneromooo: I suspect it's hyperbole, and what you just said.
19:52:44 <as2333> moneromooo, well, reddit is obviously a centralized service.
19:53:07 <moneromooo> I thought so too, just was curious if there was more to it.
19:53:28 <as2333> moneromooo, and then yes I assume it works for the US govt.
19:54:28 <apotheon> I suspect your meaning of "works for the US govt" is meant to stand in for "will respond favorably to US government requests to turn over information about users".
19:54:41 <usernetinternet[> moneromooo: how do you stay anon while working on xmr? Are you afraid they will track u?
19:54:59 <as2333> I assume it forwards all traffic to the NSA.
19:55:06 <moneromooo> I strongly suspect I am not to them.
19:55:20 <as2333> same thing ATT has been doing for what 20 year?
19:55:24 <apotheon> actively forwards all traffic to NSA specifically
19:55:27 <as2333> years*
19:55:33 <apotheon> That's a heck of a claim.
19:55:46 <as2333> which one?
19:55:52 <moneromooo> The AT&T one is well documented fwiw.
19:56:03 <apotheon> 19:55 < apotheon> actively forwards all traffic to NSA specifically
19:56:03 <Quotes> NSA? Morono protects me.
19:56:04 <apotheon> 19:55 < apotheon> That's a heck of a claim.
19:56:09 <as2333> apotheon, yeah sorry
19:56:26 <apotheon> moneromooo: Yeah, AT&T is a bit different.
19:56:32 <as2333> frankly it seems like a pretty uncontroversial claim to me
19:56:48 <moneromooo> The NSA pwned google traffic years back, and google is quite a lot larger and technically tooled up.
19:57:08 <moneromooo> Now, the claim might be they do knowingly, I dunno.
19:57:16 <as2333> also, reddit's censorship campaigns are disgusting and another clear 'hint' of what reddit is
19:57:48 <as2333> anyway, I asked for a 'decentralized exchange' and was told to use reddit and ebay. Maybe I was trolled.
19:58:22 <moneromooo> Well, reddit and ebay. Two different ones, so it's not centralised :D
19:58:33 <as2333> moneromooo, =)
19:59:17 <charolastra> you're only trolled if you actually believe it
19:59:57 <as2333> ok so I wasn't then =P
20:01:05 <apotheon> 19:57 < moneromooo> Now, the claim might be they do knowingly, I dunno.
20:01:07 <apotheon> That's how I read it.
20:01:35 <apotheon> It's the "yes, we're actively sending this specifically to the NSA constantly" implication that I find a bit much without some kind of evidence.
20:02:04 <abcdefg> I mean reddit is collecting user data
20:02:13 <apotheon> I'm not opposed to assuming the NSA has access to it all -- just skeptical that reddit has some kind of data-sync push job going on just for the NSA.
20:02:14 <Quotes> NSA? Morono protects me.
20:02:15 <abcdefg> They have explicitly doing and pushing for user signups
20:02:34 <abcdefg> Breaking the mobile website on phones so ppl download the app
20:02:43 <abcdefg> Its clearly to encourage data collection
20:03:05 <abcdefg> If a website is collecting large amounts of user data to sell for profits etc it might as well be an NSA honeypot
20:03:06 <apotheon> sure
20:03:08 <abcdefg> Reddit is cancer anyways
20:03:24 <apotheon> encouraging data collection is normal now (and no, that doesn't justify it at all)
20:03:36 <as2333> apotheon, why wouldn't they
20:03:37 <apotheon> Yeah, reddit is a waste of energy and time.
20:03:49 <apotheon> as2333: It would be extra work for little or no business benefit.
20:03:53 <as2333> apotheon, also the US is ruled by secret laws
20:04:01 <as2333> apotheon, no business benefit?
20:04:13 <apotheon> Just giving data to someone doesn't help you.
20:04:16 <apotheon> What do you get in return?
20:04:47 <as2333> apotheon, you're part of the US 'public private' 'alliance'.
20:05:04 <apotheon> I'm not sure what that sentence-ish thing means.
20:05:11 <as2333> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intelligence-laundering
20:05:39 <as2333> apotheon, see  so called 'parallel construction'
20:05:43 <apotheon> I also think reddit is probably far enough down the list of sites from which the NSA would want data that the NSA probably doesn't have a budget set aside for making friendly payments for data.  The NSA would probably rather get it without direct knowledge of reddit.
20:05:56 <apotheon> . . . because it can probably be done much more cheaply that way.
20:06:19 <as2333> apotheon, maybe. But I think it's quite reasonable to assume that reddit is complicit.
20:06:27 <apotheon> perhaps tacitly
20:06:30 <apotheon> I doubt it's explicitly.
20:06:50 <as2333> Well I assume it is.
20:06:52 <apotheon> It is at least effectively complicit by not being more diligent in protecting user data.
20:07:07 <apotheon> . . . but that's not quite as strong as even "tacitly complicit", let alone "explicitly complicit".
20:07:19 <usernetinternet[> <as2333 "https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/20"> So much for 4th ammenedment
20:07:31 <apotheon> Anyway, this is all just farting in the wind.  We all agree that reddit isn't a place that likely keeps our data safe.
20:07:46 <apotheon> egad
20:08:12 <as2333> usernetinternet[, yeah. So the govt convicts people using secret 'evidence'.
20:08:16 <apotheon> The Matrix gateway interface on Freenode is shit.  It quoted a URL, but cut it off at a hard character length, so it's a broken URL.
20:08:40 <rupee[m]> sounds like a shitty chat experience
20:08:48 <apotheon> It's a shitty gateway experience.
20:08:56 <moneromooo> Or a chatty shit experience.
20:09:03 * moneromooo steps back
20:09:04 <apotheon> that too
20:09:48 <moneromooo> Having lots of tests is really both really great and fucking infurating...
20:10:19 <apotheon> How so?
20:11:34 <moneromooo> Because you take ages to work out the bug is in the test, and you were asumming it wasn't -_-
20:11:48 <ndorf> apotheon: i don't think it's meant to, or needs to, fully quote the URL. just identify the original message it was responding to.
20:11:52 <apotheon> moneromooo: oh, ouch
20:12:11 <apotheon> ndorf: When the original message is lost in a sea of messages, though, you then have nothing but a broken URL to go on.
20:12:14 <ndorf> the full URL is in the replied-to message
20:12:31 <ndorf> surely, it wouldn't be better to quote the entire original message every response?
20:12:37 <apotheon> cool, I replied to a message ndorf hadn't yet sent
20:12:45 <ndorf> the quoted piece should be enough to find the original, by using e.g. /last eff.org
20:12:54 <usernetinternet[> Eta on triptych?
20:13:02 <ndorf> i guess you must have access to my NSA feed?
20:13:05 <moneromooo> Unknown.
20:13:05 <apotheon> Shit.  I didn't know /last was a thing.
20:13:25 <moneromooo> The code's ready but not reviewed/audited.
20:13:26 <ndorf> lol
20:13:27 <apotheon> ndorf: Thanks!
20:13:35 <ndorf> maybe you'd be better off using matrix than IRC? >:)
20:13:36 * ndorf ducks
20:13:40 <apotheon> har har har
20:13:40 <moneromooo> Also needs a decision on (1) multisig and (2) ring size.
20:13:50 <usernetinternet[> <moneromooo "Unknown."> Are ringsizes going to remain fixed after triptych? Or will they become variable again?
20:13:53 <apotheon> I've never really needed /last like that until the Matrix gateway came along.
20:14:04 <moneromooo> Almost certainly fixed.
20:14:18 <moneromooo> Though triptych txes will be N and CLSAG txes will be M, with M != N.
20:14:19 <ndorf> i mean, without the matrix gateway, there would be no quote at all. so i'm not sure how that's any better for your use case
20:14:33 <moneromooo> And of course, pre-rct will be variable still.
20:14:46 <usernetinternet[> <moneromooo "Almost certainly fixed."> Thanks
20:16:10 <moneromooo> Also, it's not actually decided it'll go in.
20:16:21 <apotheon> ndorf: People have to make a point of quoting/contextually-replying in either Matrix or IRC.  The difference is that the quoting tends to be far more extensive in Matrix and chopped off through the gateway when coming to Freenode, while replies originating in IRC tend to involve the replying party composing a contextually-aware response.
20:16:23 <moneromooo> It's very likely though.
20:16:42 <apotheon> ndorf: The issue is that Freenode's Matrix gateway doesn't translate this well at all.
20:16:50 <ndorf> apotheon: i think the standard IRC response would be with no quote at all, at most the nickname of the person being responded to.
20:17:17 <ndorf> not seeing how that's better than a partial quote. you can just ignore the partial quote and get the same result
20:17:43 <apotheon> ndorf: That only seems to be the case in IRC for cases where there aren't other messages after the addressed message that could confuse the issue.
20:17:58 <ndorf> like, there is no scenario in which a pure IRC response would quote the entire URL
20:18:20 <apotheon> If the last message from as2333 was with the link, sure, but with several other as2333 messages following it the response would probably include more to indicate to which message the person was replying.
20:18:37 <ndorf> such as?
20:18:59 <ndorf> at most you'd get "re the link you pasted," which is clearly worse than a partial url you can use /last to search for.
20:19:07 <apotheon> "Wow, that EFF link -- so much for the fourth amendment."
20:19:10 <apotheon> or something
20:19:43 <ndorf> right, so now you need to eyeball the results of /last as2333 looking for EFF links.
20:19:52 <ndorf> as opposed to just /last eff.org or even /last <entire partial URL>
20:20:05 <apotheon> The thing is . . . a partial EFF link might give you something to try to find, but it does so in a way that shows ability to provide something more useful while resolutely refusing to do it.
20:20:24 <rupee[m]> <apotheon ""Wow, that EFF link -- so much f"> soon it'll start eating into 3rd amendment. If the govt plants a bot in my computer, is that bot a soldier that I'm housing? 🤔
20:20:25 <apotheon> It comes off like a tease rather than genuine helpfulness.
20:20:27 <ndorf> it sounds like you're proposing quoting the *entire* message being responded to, which seems pretty clearly bad
20:20:52 <apotheon> not necessarily
20:21:11 <apotheon> just proposing not using magic numbers in code meant to present something useful to the reader
20:21:30 <apotheon> If you want to be "helpful", try actually thinking about what makes it helpful.
20:21:59 <ndorf> you need a hard cutoff, otherwise your quotes will be way too long.
20:22:24 <apotheon> A soft cutoff up to a lager useful length seems better than *just a hard cutoff*.
20:22:32 <as2333> you don't need 'autoquote' - it's a stupid 'featured'
20:22:36 <as2333> feature*
20:23:16 <ndorf> URLs can be arbitrarily long, so you'll end up cutting off some of them anyway.
20:23:18 <apotheon> s/lager/larger/
20:23:22 <apotheon> I'm not talking about beer.
20:23:33 <ndorf> that's probably the issue.
20:23:35 <as2333> free beer!
20:23:43 <apotheon> Cutting off a 1000-character URL is not the same as cutting off a 20-character URL.
20:24:36 <ndorf> i mean, sure. i suppose you could make a case that a special case for URLs should exist, but it's certainly not self-evident
20:24:40 <apotheon> There's also the fact that, other than using /last, I see roughly-useless choppoed-quote messages from Matrix more often than useful.
20:24:49 <ndorf> if you can prove that a large number of URLs are longer than the default cutoff, but not *much* longer, then maybe.
20:24:55 <ndorf> otherwise it's just extra complexity for no good reason.
20:25:01 <apotheon> How about a special case for not cutting off the middle of a "word" that isn't absurdly long?
20:25:13 <ndorf> as an OpenBSD user you ought to be amenable to that argument, no? :)
20:26:08 <apotheon> As an OpenBSD user, you ought to be amenable to selecting reasonable cutoff boundaries -- right?
20:26:12 <ndorf> i guess that would be "ok" but still, more complexity for a marginal improvement at best.
20:26:21 <apotheon> I mean, I can do that with a single command at the shell.
20:27:01 <apotheon> It's trying to make two different chat protocols work nicely together and mutually intelligible.  This is *not* exactly the high-water mark for complexity of the task.
20:27:46 <apotheon> Anyway, I've seen quite a few Matrix gateway quotes that were useless as hell even when they don't cut off some URL in the middle.
20:28:10 <apotheon> . . . and what about the case of someone sharing half a dozen EFF links?  What does /last show for that?
20:28:21 <apotheon> (with other messages between)
20:28:28 * apotheon checks /help last.
20:29:51 <ndorf> by default it will show all of them, modulo your configured buffer size, with no other context. there are a lot of options though.
20:30:09 <apotheon> I guess -count looks like it might help, but you then still don't know which link if the part up to the cutoff is the same for each.
20:30:39 <ndorf> yes, you're screwed there, but i don't think there is any perfect solution.
20:30:44 <ndorf> always quoting the whole thing would be bad.
20:30:47 <ndorf> quoting nothing at all would also be bad.
20:30:53 <apotheon> There's a better solution, and that's what I'd like to see.
20:31:26 <apotheon> Is it really so difficult to conceive of a better solution that doesn't involve pulling in a machine learning system?
20:31:29 <ndorf> i guess you could have an AI decide how much to quote based on context but ... overkill for the <1% of cases where that even remotely matters
20:31:41 <apotheon> Is it your contention that there's no reasonable way to improve a shitty user experience?
20:31:44 <fibonacci> .balance
20:31:53 <apotheon> I'm answering what you're saying before you say it, again.
20:32:03 <apotheon> I think Wallet is broken.
20:32:13 <ndorf> my contention is that there doesn't seem to be an obvious way to improve it without making the most common cases much worse.
20:33:18 <apotheon> How is "don't cut off a word if the total length of the resulting quote is less than double the length of the default cutoff" either impossibly complex or a worse user experience?
20:33:41 <apotheon> . . . and if you think it is worse, try 1.5 instead of 2.
20:33:53 <apotheon> . . . and if you think 1.5 is still too much, I think we just disagree.
20:33:56 <ndorf> because a large percentage of the time, it will just increase noise without improving anything.
20:34:08 <ndorf> i.e., long URLs will still be cut off.
20:34:13 <apotheon> An essentially useless quote also just increases noise without improving anything.
20:34:31 <ndorf> it's not useless, it's enough to /last for 90%+ of the time.
20:34:41 <apotheon> If long URLs will still be cut off, for some definition of "long", some will not.  It's an improvement.
20:35:05 <ndorf> cutting off a word doesn't seem much better than completing the word but still cutting off in the middle of a sentence.
20:35:12 <ndorf> s/better/worse/
20:35:19 <apotheon> . . . especially because some long URLs are long because of initial material that doesn't differentiate from other URLs on the same site.
20:35:46 <donkeydonkey[m]> .balance
20:35:46 <apotheon> ndorf: "word" is stand-in for "word-like thing, probably bounded by spaces"
20:36:01 <ndorf> i think you would need to demonstrate that a small factor like 1.5 or 2.0 would improve a significant percentage of URLs before demanding a change
20:36:13 <apotheon> holy fuck
20:36:18 <apotheon> This is starting to sound like bureaucracy.
20:36:53 <ndorf> it's been sounding like something like premature optimization, except possibly not even optimizing anything
20:37:05 <apotheon> Your contention seems to be that I need to provide a longitudinal study of evolving chat system usage patterns with A/B testing in some off-Freenode context before I can raise the issue of whether we can do better.
20:37:47 <apotheon> (The whole point of "premature optimization" admonishments is that they often don't optimize anything, by the way, so that's a little redundant.)
20:38:06 <apotheon> "I think this would be better."
20:38:38 <apotheon> "NO ABSOLUTELY NOT WE MUST NOT CONSIDER EVEN CONSIDERING IT UNTIL YOU HAVE PROOF."
20:38:46 <ndorf> well, if the reality is that most URLs are still cut off even with your 1.5-2.x leeway, then i'd say you've made things worse.
20:38:57 <apotheon> If that isn't the reality, it would make it better.
20:39:04 <apotheon> Perhaps it's worth considering.
20:39:04 <ndorf> right.
20:39:25 <apotheon> as opposed to "go die in a fire without having performed A/B testing"
20:39:45 <apotheon> "How dare you question the way it works now?" doesn't seem productive to me.
20:39:58 <apotheon> That's very much how you come off to me right now.
20:39:59 <ndorf> i didn't tell you to DIAF, i told you to go and determine whether your change actually makes things better or worse :)
20:40:37 <apotheon> No, you didn't tell me to just die in a fire.  You didn't even literally use those words.  You did, however, basically act like I need A/B testing to even raise the issue.
20:40:52 <apotheon> no discussion allowed until one has rock solid proof
20:41:14 <ndorf> i don't think i ever demanded "Rock solid proof," even a shred of evidence would be a good start. and what is this if not a discussion?
20:42:23 <apotheon> It's you telling me to stop because I'm wrong unless I can show statistics, as far as I can tell -- and has been from about word three.
20:42:43 <ndorf> what have i said that could possibly be interpreted as telling you to stop?
20:42:56 <apotheon> You literally told me I need to show evidence that, if actually collected, would require a statistical study.
20:43:00 <ndorf> all i'm saying is i suspect your change would be worse, not better
20:43:29 <ndorf> what statistical study? just compile a decent sample of URLs posted in here. that's surely a heck of a lot less work than just going ahead with your suggested change, only to find out later that it is in fact worse
20:44:03 <apotheon> 20:36 < ndorf> i think you would need to demonstrate that a small factor like 1.5 or 2.0 would improve a significant percentage
20:44:09 <apotheon> statistics
20:44:35 <ndorf> so: log the channel for a few days, grep http:// and https:// out of it, and see how many of those are longer than 1.5x-2x the existing limit.
20:44:38 <apotheon> 20:33 < ndorf> because a large percentage of the time, it will just increase noise without improving anything.
20:44:45 <apotheon> Provide me with statistical proof of that claim, then.
20:44:53 <apotheon> before shooting down an idea
20:45:21 <ndorf> you're the one proposing a change, i'd say the onus is on you to prove that it would actually provide a benefit.
20:45:38 <ndorf> or at least that it *might* provide a benefit.
20:45:40 <apotheon> here we go again
20:45:50 <apotheon> "Let's not consider it because . . ."
20:46:02 <apotheon> Note that many times I said "consider" and you keep saying I'm demanding a specific change now.
20:46:18 <apotheon> . . . as opposed to just suggesting different approaches to making it better that could be *considered*.
20:46:58 <PapuaHardyNet> is there a rule that matrix users should be provided first class support in using this channel?
20:47:14 <apotheon> That, to me, makes it seem like you're saying my request is unreasonable and akin to demanding one specific change, and you keep asserting that it cannot possibly be better short of someone proving it to you with statistical data.
20:47:26 <apotheon> PapuaHardyNet: dunno
20:47:33 <ndorf> well, let's start with the specific URL you're complaining about.
20:47:45 <ndorf> the quoted portion was 32 characters, and the full URL was 78 -- more than double.
20:48:12 <apotheon> PapuaHardyNet: I'm more interested in whether there should be some consideration made for improving the user experience for IRC users who have to read fragmentary quotes from Matrix and load up pastes when someone wants to quote someone else's two-word message and follow up with a one-word response.
20:48:33 <apotheon> ndorf: Here's a question for you, then.
20:48:48 <apotheon> ndorf: Is 78 too long for nothing but a URI when the rest of the reply is just a few words?
20:48:55 <PapuaHardyNet> just ignore them, why should you accomodate IRC to matrix's quirks?
20:49:27 <apotheon> I think expanding a single URI for a total message length of less than 100 characters to ensure that people know what the fuck is being said is not unreasonable.
20:49:33 <ndorf> i'd say yes, since it's likely to turn a one-line message into a two-line one
20:49:50 <ndorf> often enough, the quoted message will *still* be on the screen, resulting in a total waste.
20:49:51 <apotheon> wow
20:50:22 <apotheon> I often find that the quoted message is not still on the screen, and if we can't show whole URLs maybe we should just not show the message at all.
20:50:32 <apotheon> might as well shove it off into a pastebin
20:50:49 <ndorf> specifically, the message quoting the partial URL fit onto one line for me, but wouldn't have if it'd included the full URL.
20:51:09 <ndorf> of course, that depends on your window width and all that.
20:51:31 <PapuaHardyNet> I agree partially: URLs are text, a partial URL is as useless as no url
20:51:43 <PapuaHardyNet> especially if you are using a bot to mirror messages from matrix
20:51:51 <ndorf> i strongly disagree that the partial URL is useless, it's enough to search for in your history
20:51:52 <Quotes> useless? nothing is as useless as »Useless Ethereum Token« (UET®) https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/useless-ethereum-token/
20:51:57 <ndorf> lol
20:52:18 <ndorf> or, if still on your screen, enough to identify it without searching
20:52:58 <ndorf> people tend to reply to recent-ish messages, so i'd say the latter case should be quite common
20:52:59 <apotheon> If the message is still on the screen, the /last defense for broken URLs doesn't mean much.
20:53:38 <ndorf> more like, if the message is still on the screen, duplicating the entire thing is even worse than if it isn't
20:55:09 <apotheon> I'm not sure what's so horrible about wrapping a message to a second line anyway.
20:55:59 <apotheon> This isn't Twitter.
20:56:02 <ndorf> i wouldn't say it's horrible, just worse than not doing that, because now you have to scroll back for context that would otherwise just be visible
20:56:20 <apotheon> How does one extra line cause scrolling issues?
20:56:20 <usernetinternet[> Quotes: better than the shit on bsc lol
20:56:38 <apotheon> BSC?
20:56:59 <usernetinternet[> apotheon: binance smart chain, its full of shittlkens
20:57:11 <usernetinternet[> * apotheon: binance smart chain, its full of shit tokens
20:57:11 <apotheon> Is your display eighty characters wide and four lines high?
20:57:21 <apotheon> usernetinternet[: Oh, Binance.  Okay.
20:57:29 <apotheon> I like "shittlkens" as a neologism.
21:00:09 <ndorf> however high your display might be, the less of it is wasted, the better.
21:00:30 <ndorf> and showing the same message twice, in its entirety, on the same screen is definitely a complete waste
21:00:44 <apotheon> Do away with quotes, then, I guess, because most Matrix gateway quotes look like wasted space to me.
21:01:31 <apotheon> Hell, the pastebin "long message" stuff from the Matrix gateway is much longer than the quotes.
21:01:38 <apotheon> Why does that get special treatment?
21:01:51 <apotheon> It's sometimes longer than the fucking text in the paste.
21:03:09 <ndorf> no opinion on that, however, as far as doing away with quotes, while that's not a completely absurd suggestion, i do think that a short snippet quote is better than no quote at all.
21:03:33 <ndorf> it gives you something to search for if needed, without being as likely to add one or more extra lines.
21:04:00 <apotheon> might as well make it just "https://eff.org" sometimes
21:04:28 <apotheon> In this case, there was nothing to differentiate it from two decades' worth of other EFF links.
21:04:38 <apotheon> It ended with the first two digits of the article year.
21:04:45 <ndorf> sure, except that is a) more work b) more possibility of bugs for c) marginal, if any, benefit
21:05:08 <apotheon> How is shortening it more work or more possibility of bugs?
21:05:28 <apotheon> It's just a change of a magic number, and cuts down on energy usage in practice.
21:05:37 <apotheon> (electricity, I mean)
21:05:58 <ndorf> lol
21:06:49 <ndorf> i'd assumed you meant cutting it off after the hostname, not just shortening the hardcoded length.
21:07:23 <apotheon> You seem opposed to anything that involves offloading user effort to the software, so no, that's not what I proposed.
21:07:32 <ndorf> but sure, i'd be okay with a shorter hard length, if you really so strongly prefer that.
21:07:47 <ndorf> 32 also seems to be a reasonable cutoff to me, but sure, maybe 24 would be better.
21:08:05 <apotheon> Consider that the length of the quote in this case was the maximum size it could be without actually offering any more information than that it's an EFF article.
21:08:32 <apotheon> This seems like the objectively worst result that still makes some people think it's doing something useful.
21:08:59 <ndorf> that's not quite true -- it's an eff article after 1999 :P
21:09:04 <apotheon> It's indistinguishable from URLs for more than twenty years of articles.
21:09:33 <ndorf> sure, for that specific case even shorter would be great.
21:10:04 <apotheon> or longer
21:10:18 <apotheon> Even one more character would've been more useful, if not a lot more.
21:10:35 <ndorf> you would need all 78 characters for longer to be any good, which i'm still convinced is much worse than the shortened version
21:11:03 <apotheon> You wouldn't if you were concerned about getting multiple hits with /last.
21:11:23 <ndorf> and you're still talking about one specific URL, what happens when i post one of those microsoft-style URLs that's like 400 characters of pure gibberish?
21:11:29 <apotheon> . . . and we clearly disagree about whether a useful URL is useful.
21:11:54 <apotheon> Four hundred characters doesn't fit in a single Freenode message, as far as I recall, so that's clearly too much.
21:12:00 <ndorf> and then someone responds with a full copy of that URL, and now half your window is two copies of the same crap? fuck that
21:12:39 <abcdefg> How do I open an application in current terminal window rather than it opening a new one
21:12:44 <abcdefg> I am playing around with tmux
21:14:58 <ndorf> apotheon: i just /msg'd you a bunch of crap and it looks like it gets cut off at 410 characters per message. :P
21:15:21 <ndorf> (i meant to try to send 400, but actually sent 1600, sorry about that xD)
21:15:28 <apotheon> har
21:16:01 <apotheon> The point is, if your quote takes up half the message limit, you've overstepped -- because at that point you're talking about usually having less new content than quote.
21:16:23 <apotheon> (which is "normal" on Matrix, but that doesn't mean we should import that insanity as a norm in IRC)
21:17:22 <apotheon> abcdefg: I'm not sure what you mean about opening an application in the current terminal window.  If it's a console-based application, you should just be able to run it at the shell prompt.
21:17:44 <abcdefg> Yeah I'm trying to just run xmrig in a Tmux window
21:17:56 <abcdefg> So I'm typing open xmrig
21:17:59 <apotheon> Is xmrig a console-based rpogram?
21:18:04 <apotheon> err, program
21:18:08 <apotheon> I've never used xmrig.
21:18:10 <ndorf> it is.
21:18:24 <ndorf> what's 'open'? just type xmrig
21:18:35 <ndorf> inside the existing tmux window you want to run it in
21:18:36 <apotheon> s/opening/starting/
21:18:37 <apotheon> whatever
21:18:39 <abcdefg> I'm on Macos so maybe I need to type open first?
21:18:45 <abcdefg> I'm cd ~/xmrig
21:18:52 <abcdefg> If I just type xmrig it won't find the program
21:18:57 <ndorf> you have a tmux window with a shell prompt in it, yes?
21:19:00 <ndorf> what about ./xmrig
21:19:01 <apotheon> ./xmrig
21:19:02 <abcdefg> Ohhh
21:19:04 <abcdefg> That's what it is
21:19:06 <abcdefg> Thanks
21:19:11 <abcdefg> Yep
21:19:13 <abcdefg> Thank you
21:19:13 <ndorf> another satisfied customer :)
21:19:30 <apotheon> If the current directory isn't in your $PATH, you need to specify its absolute or relative path.
21:19:33 <apotheon> That's all.
21:21:22 <abcdefg> Does tmux use like emacs style terminal control
21:21:27 <abcdefg> Like scrolling up and down or changing lines
21:22:55 <hyc> probably
21:23:06 <hyc> I'll stick with screen and vi-style controls
21:28:09 <apotheon> abcdefg: sorta emacs-style
21:28:50 <apotheon> abcdefg: It uses commands very similar to GNU Screen, but with Ctrl-B instead of Ctrl-A.
21:29:11 <ndorf> yeah, WTF is up with that by the way
21:29:20 <apotheon> . . . with what?
21:29:28 <ndorf> Ctrl-A is arguably even worse, but they could choose any combo they wanted and chose one that's almost as bad
21:29:51 <apotheon> Yeah, Ctrl-A is worse.  I dunno why they couldn't come up with something better than Ctrl-B, though.
21:29:57 <ndorf> exactly what i mean
21:30:02 <apotheon> It's configurable in tmux, at least.
21:30:03 <ndorf> like as bad or almost as bad. WTF
21:30:11 <ndorf> it's configurable in screen, too. but what an awful default
21:30:13 <apotheon> agreed, re: almost as bad
21:30:33 <apotheon> Being configurable in Screen depends on how much you tolerate Screen config.
21:30:47 <apotheon> . . . which is basically all the detriments of Lisp with none of the benefits.
21:30:47 <ndorf> fair enough
21:31:10 <abcdefg> Is there a way to list wallet files I have in the cli or do I have to go to the file folder
21:31:16 <abcdefg> And just view it like that
21:31:27 <ndorf> abcdefg: the latter.
21:31:34 <abcdefg> Thx
21:31:36 <ndorf> you can create wallets in arbitrary locations, so there's no way for the wallet to know about all of them.
21:32:25 <ndorf> by default they're created in the current directory so you probably want to be careful about where you create them, too.
21:32:46 <ndorf> like, if you create one in /tmp, send money to it and then reboot... that could be very bad.
21:32:53 <somethingUniqueR> .faucet
21:33:03 <ndorf> of course, you should always write down the mnemonic seed before sending money to it, but anyway.
21:33:05 <apotheon> ndorf: Oh, that's a dangerous use case that hadn't occurred to me.
21:35:14 <ndorf> perhaps it should default to ~/.bitmonero after all, but i guess that would be a surprising change for those used to the current behavior.
21:35:33 <ndorf> could be worth considering though, especially if it's only for names without slashes in them (so explicitly specifying ./foo would still work)
21:36:44 <abcdefg> Where does the wallet default to getting created to
21:36:51 <ndorf> the current directory
21:37:09 <abcdefg> Weird
21:37:12 <abcdefg> I don't see my wallet files
21:37:18 <abcdefg> Rip 9 xmr wallet
21:37:22 <abcdefg> Lmao
21:37:31 <ndorf> that seems ... unlikely
21:37:44 <ndorf> were you in a different directory when you created the wallet, than the one you're in now?
21:37:46 <abcdefg> I'm gonna look around more I have the seed written down anyways
21:38:01 <abcdefg> Well it opened its own terminal screen
21:38:06 <abcdefg> So I'm not sure if that effected it
21:38:12 <ndorf> if you wrote down the seed, then you can always restore the wallet, you haven't lost any funds
21:38:16 <abcdefg> Yeah
21:38:22 <abcdefg> I'm just trying to figure out where it saved
21:38:26 <ndorf> i'm not familiar with MacOS but i'd assume a new terminal opens in $HOME
21:38:36 <ndorf> actually my gf has a mac, let me go check
21:39:05 <somethingUniqueR> .balance
21:39:54 <selsta> abcdefg: is it in ~/
21:39:55 <selsta> ?
21:40:14 <abcdefg> It might be let me try
21:40:25 <encvckeexpqp> Will you HODL XMR or dump it for Tari when it comes out? Will others?
21:40:38 <abcdefg> When opening a wallet in Monero-cli do I have to set the path where the wallet file is
21:40:46 <abcdefg> If its not in the current dir
21:40:49 <ndorf> yes
21:40:59 <ndorf> unless you change to the dir the wallet is in before starting the wallet
21:41:06 <ndorf> otherwise what do you expect, for it to search your entire hard drive for it?
21:41:40 <abcdefg> No
21:41:43 <abcdefg> Just wanted to make sure
21:42:08 <ndorf> you can open it with the --wallet option, so you can use your shell's tab completion and whatnot
21:42:19 <ndorf> as in: monero-wallet-cli --wallet <filename>
21:42:40 <ndorf> or --wallet ~/filename, or --wallet /full/path/to/filename or whatever.
21:43:22 <abcdefg> Yeah it was saved in ~/
21:43:31 <abcdefg> I just moved the files to the dir I have the wallet it and opened it that way
21:43:52 <abcdefg> Thanks for the patience and help
21:44:05 <ndorf> yeah, you can keep the files anywhere you like. just make sure to keep all files together.
21:44:17 <ndorf> (at least wallet_name and wallet_name.keys)
21:44:48 <abcdefg> Yeah I ran it through the open Monero-wallet-cli command so it opened a new terminal window and must've saved in ~/
21:45:40 <ndorf> makes sense. you can avoid that by running it directly instead of through this 'open' command
21:46:11 <ndorf> unless you actually want the new terminal window, in which case i don't know :)
21:47:10 <abcdefg> Yeah
21:47:25 <abcdefg> Still learning
21:47:36 <apotheon> ndorf: You're an incredibly hepful person in this channel, by the way.  Thanks for being here.
21:47:54 <usernetinternet[> Ndorf saving peoples bags
21:47:58 <apotheon> yep
21:48:07 <ndorf> aw, thanks *blushes*
21:48:17 <apotheon> . . . and ndorf was stupendously helpful to me previously.
21:48:31 <endogenic> +1
21:58:50 <abcdefg_irssi> hello
22:01:40 <abcdefg_irssi> Ok im running IRC in tmux now lets see if I still drop all the time
22:40:03 <fibonacci> .rain $1.00 bch
22:40:31 <fibonacci> 👌
22:40:31 <apotheon> erm
22:40:42 <apotheon> I really think Wallet seems broken today.
22:40:43 <luigi1111w> .rain 10000000 bsv
22:41:20 <rupee[m]> .soak $1 Happy Weekend
22:41:24 <apotheon> Maybe the feds caught up with Bill48105 and took control of the bot.
22:41:55 <rupee[m]> it works in PM, but not in this channel
22:42:10 <apotheon> Yeah, I noticed PMs can be used to check balance and so on.
22:42:23 <apotheon> The feds probably haven't figured out that part, yet.
22:44:38 <nioc> it's weekend already?
22:48:40 <apotheon> sorta
22:48:51 <apotheon> What do hats and Saturdays have in common?
22:49:02 <apotheon> They both fit on the weak end.
22:49:28 <apotheon> I was kidding about the feds in this case, by the way.
22:49:45 <apotheon> abcdefg_irssi: no connection loss so far, apparently
22:50:26 <apotheon> It's hard to believe the CCCP nick isn't registered or currently in use.
23:05:12 <fibonacci> .rain $1 bch
23:05:28 <fibonacci> Limited to Monero as it should be?
23:05:41 <fibonacci> Seems reasonable honestly
23:05:52 <rupee[m]> .xmr
23:06:06 <fibonacci> Only because of our decline in popularity
23:12:40 <abcdefg_irssi> apotheon: yea I kinda thought it was just some weird client setting on xchat and I think thats what it was
23:15:23 <apotheon> abcdefg_irssi: coolio
23:15:40 <pe41[m]> How is it possible for someone to have two or more almost identical addresses that start with the number 4?
23:15:49 <apotheon> Randomness?
23:16:02 <apotheon> dunno
23:17:49 <pe41[m]> I don't know either and I find it very strange. Not sure if the guy has private keys to manage those addresses, but if he hasn't why would he use it to receive money?
23:17:52 <pixelized[m]> yeah my bet would be chance
23:19:09 <as2333> the chance of two addresses being almost identical is pretty much 0?
23:19:36 <pe41[m]> The chance for this to happen must be extremely low, especially considering the lenght of XMR Addresses.
23:19:47 <pe41[m]> I'm specifically refering to the first two miners https://xmr.solopool.org/miners
23:20:17 <pe41[m]> Either he doesn't have keys to one of the addreses, but why would he burn money?
23:21:15 <rupee[m]> <pe41[m] "How is it possible for someone t"> see the "GENERATE WALLET WITH PREFIX" section: https://moneroaddress.org/
23:21:32 <rupee[m]> vanity addresses
23:21:43 <rupee[m]> brute force create addresses until it starts with the characters you want
23:21:48 <luigi1111w> those wouldn't be almost identical
23:22:02 <rupee[m]> oh, no not at all. I didn't read closely
23:22:03 <luigi1111w> unless someone is being pretty loose with terms
23:22:14 <pe41[m]> Do you know how long would it take to generete wallet with prefix?
23:22:34 <rupee[m]> depends on how many characters you want to specify
23:22:53 <pe41[m]> 90.
23:23:06 <pe41[m]> Not possible
23:23:11 <rupee[m]> not possible
23:27:25 <pe41[m]> So there are two options left if I'm not mistaken: 1) He burns those money (and doesn't have access to the wallet) 2) He broke the cryptography?
23:27:25 <pe41[m]> I ain't no specialist and it makes me a bit worried, normally I wouldn't be concerned about it, but why would somebody burn his money?
23:27:49 <rupee[m]> how do you know the reported hashrate is real?
23:28:21 <pe41[m]> true, that's also an option, I don't. But it apparently sends payouts to those addreses?
23:29:32 <rupee[m]> shouldn't there be more than one recipient on at least one of the payouts then?
23:30:24 <pe41[m]> I don't think it has to be?
23:32:35 <moneromooo> They appear to be the same address, with two payment ids appended.
23:32:44 <rupee[m]> supportxmr has roughly the same hashrate as that pool is reporting and most payouts have multiple recipients on supportxmr
23:32:51 <moneromooo> (I did not actually check, but it looks very much that way)
23:33:06 <pe41[m]> Support xmr has a lot of small miners
23:33:40 <Bill48105> you gonna bail me out apotheon
23:33:46 <rupee[m]> ok, how about this one that has 1/3rd the hashrate: https://web.xmrpool.eu/xmr-payments.html
23:34:18 <pe41[m]> <moneromooo "They appear to be the same addre"> Oh yeah. I forgot about payment IDs completely. it seems like thats the case
23:34:57 <Bill48105> .pause here ONLINE
23:34:57 <Wallet> Bill48105: zBot is now ONLINE for #monero@freenode
23:34:59 <Bill48105> .ping
23:34:59 <Wallet> Bill48105: PONG
23:35:32 <rupee[m]> .soak $1
23:35:33 <Wallet> rupee[m]: Really soak 0.00363262 XMR? y/n (10s)
23:35:34 <Bill48105> thought i disabled Sigyn emergency mode here
23:35:40 <rupee[m]> y
23:35:41 <abcdefg_irssi> what does that bot do?
23:35:42 <Wallet> rupee[m] soaked 0.00027 XMR (0.00363262 Total) upon 13 users @ 1430 minutes chaper nioc Gingeropolous dEBRUYNE Bi​ll48105 Mumuks Davo_Dinkum u9000 louipc ndorf Wallet rrznadsac selsta @bonuspot (0.00012262 scraps) [08adbb95]
23:35:48 <Bill48105> nice htanks rupee
23:35:53 <Bill48105> that's what it does :)
23:35:57 <Bill48105> and 1000 other things
23:36:02 <abcdefg_irssi> gives free xmr?
23:36:12 <Bill48105> well the person soaking is the one giving the free monero but yeah
23:36:18 <abcdefg_irssi> oh i see
23:36:22 <abcdefg_irssi> it pms and asks for address?
23:36:32 <Bill48105> kek no the bot does not do that
23:36:32 <apotheon> Bill48105: I don't have enough XMR to get you out of a CIA black site.  Sorry.
23:36:42 <Bill48105> if you get pm asking you for anything figure it's a scammer
23:36:51 <abcdefg_irssi> how does it send the xmr lol
23:37:10 <Bill48105> ok no worries i'll exit scam the the $7 in monero on the bot & bail myself out
23:37:27 <Bill48105> abcdefg_irssi you can ask the bot for address like .deposit (works in pm to Wallet as well)
23:38:03 <Bill48105> that's how you add monero to your bot account. the opposite is .withdraw monero_address amount/all to send it to another wallet
23:38:13 <rupee[m]> .help
23:38:14 <Wallet> rupee[m]: I'm a cool multi-coin multi-platform bot by Bill48105. Docs: https://bill48105.github.io/wallet/ | My core commands: .balance .deposit .faucet .ping .soak .tip .val .withdraw  | .help <games|share|misc|other> to see others | .help <cmd> for more details.
23:38:22 <rupee[m]> ^ abcdefg_irssi there are the docs
23:39:04 <abcdefg_irssi> oh so its literally like an irc xmr wallet
23:39:22 <fibonacci> Bill48105: You exit scam artist from hell...
23:39:24 <Bill48105> yeah sure but it's on 10+ platforms
23:39:26 <Bill48105> .servers
23:39:26 <Wallet> Bill48105: Status: • freenode: On • keybase: On • reddit: On • slack: On • hmail: On • rizon: On • oftc: On • twitch: On • matrix: On • discord: On • telegram: On
23:39:38 <fibonacci> 😆
23:39:39 <Bill48105> so you can use it any of those places
23:39:44 <Bill48105> hey fibonacci what up
23:40:04 <fibonacci> You have too much work.. find a boat to jump on
23:40:07 <apotheon> Thanks, rupee[m], for being such a buddy to the channel.
23:40:14 <apotheon> (re: soaking)
23:40:17 <rupee[m]> :-D
23:40:19 <rupee[m]> my pleasure
23:40:22 <fibonacci> Bill48105: jump on a 🚢
23:40:47 <fibonacci> .soak $10 bch
23:40:48 <Wallet> fibonacci: Really soak 0.01577793 BCH? y/n (10s)
23:40:50 <fibonacci> Y
23:40:51 <Wallet> fibonacci soaked 0.00112699 BCH (0.01577793 Total) upon 14 users @ 1435 minutes Davo_Dinkum Mumuks u9000 chaper nioc rupee[m] selsta louipc Gingeropolous Bi​ll48105 ndorf dEBRUYNE rrznadsac Wallet @bonuspot (0.00000007 scraps) [eb5a291a]
23:40:52 <Bill48105> figure use the bot minimally here since it's for talking & bridged other places
23:40:57 <rupee[m]> woot
23:40:59 <apotheon> I really want to know what emoji fibonacci suggested as something on which Bill48105 should jump.
23:41:06 <Bill48105> lol fibonacci over here soaking evil coins but thanks :D
23:41:11 <fibonacci> It was a Boat
23:41:15 <Bill48105> it's a ship i think
23:41:29 <apotheon> fibonacci: Next time, maybe a number from the fibonacci sequence!
23:41:31 <Bill48105> it's a tiny mushroom stump..
23:41:48 <fibonacci> apotheon: that is a valid argument
23:41:52 <Bill48105> fib knows he can do them in ( )
23:41:59 <apotheon> fibonacci: Thanks anyay.
23:42:00 <rupee[m]> .cashfusion to xmr
23:42:14 <Bill48105> fib the Cash whale
23:42:18 <nioc> .burn bch
23:42:30 <Bill48105> nioc do .bch xtip all xmr :)
23:42:38 <abcdefg_irssi> so when it soaks to someone else you just tell the bot to withdraw to your address?
23:42:39 <apotheon> like soaking 0.112358 BCH or XMR or whatever
23:42:52 <Bill48105> yes basically abcdefg_irssi as long as you have enough
23:42:53 <apotheon> or just 8USD-worth
23:42:56 <abcdefg_irssi> .withdraw
23:42:57 <Wallet> abcdefg_irssi: Access denied for withdraw. Are you logged in?
23:43:01 <Bill48105> .register
23:43:02 <Wallet> Bill48105: /msg NickServ help - https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration - WARNING! DO NOT ISSUE /msg COMMANDS IN CHANNEL! You risk exposing email/pass to everyone..
23:43:06 <abcdefg_irssi> .register
23:43:06 <Wallet> abcdefg_irssi: /msg NickServ help - https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration - WARNING! DO NOT ISSUE /msg COMMANDS IN CHANNEL! You risk exposing email/pass to everyone..
23:43:09 <Bill48105> you need to be registered & logged in ^^
23:43:10 <Bill48105> read that
23:43:20 <Bill48105> running the command doesnt register you it tells you how
23:43:31 <nioc> .bch xtip all xmr
23:43:32 <Wallet> nioc: You want to xtip 0.00112699 BCH for 0.00236911 XMR (~$0.71443133)? y/n (10s)
23:43:33 <Bill48105> had to add the idiot proof warning on there
23:43:37 <nioc> y
23:43:37 <Wallet> nioc: You created xtip of 0.00112699 BCH for 0.00236911 XMR [84467df1]
23:43:38 <Bill48105> .xmr xtip 1
23:43:39 <Wallet> Bill48105: You want to xtip 0.00236911 XMR for 0.00112699 BCH (~$0.71443133)? y/n (10s)
23:43:40 <Bill48105> y
23:43:40 <Wallet> Bill48105: SUCCESS! Bill48105@freenode 0.00236911 XMR <-> nioc@freenode 0.00112699 BCH [84467df1]
23:43:43 <Bill48105> like magic
23:43:57 <nioc> thx Bill48105
23:44:03 <Bill48105> yup np :)
23:44:15 <Bill48105> that's one way to dump shit coins eh
23:44:25 <pe41[m]> <moneromooo "They appear to be the same addre"> Yup, it is. Thank you very much for reminding me that there are also payment ids! It honestly made me a bit worried when I saw that haha. :P
23:44:37 <nioc> first bch I have ever had lol
23:44:52 <rupee[m]> you couldn't get rid of it fast enough. lolol
23:45:03 <Bill48105> you want it back?
23:45:07 <Bill48105> lol ikr
23:45:18 <Bill48105> "OMG THIS SHIT BURNS!!" loo
23:45:37 <apotheon> My first BCH was someone offering to give me 5USD-worth  of BCH if I'd install a BCH wallet.
23:45:41 <apotheon> . . . so what the hell, I did.
23:45:57 <Bill48105> how much is that worth now eh
23:46:02 <nioc> well I may have given my btc keys to someone to deal with the bch "airdrop" but I never touched it
23:46:06 <apotheon> about the same; it was this year
23:46:35 <Bill48105> handing over your keys can never go wrong
23:46:42 <apotheon> ne'er
23:46:53 <apotheon> People are basically good!™
23:46:56 <nioc> I had 100% confidence
23:47:05 <apotheon> . . . in what, exactly?
23:47:21 <nioc> that they would not take my bitscorn
23:48:00 <nioc> wait I think that I probably moved it cause of bch collision or something
23:48:29 <nioc> so long ago
23:49:43 <Bill48105> basically good until they aren't
23:49:55 <abcdefg_irssi> .wallet
23:50:01 <abcdefg_irssi> .register
23:50:02 <Wallet> abcdefg_irssi: /msg NickServ help - https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration - WARNING! DO NOT ISSUE /msg COMMANDS IN CHANNEL! You risk exposing email/pass to everyone..
23:50:10 <abcdefg_irssi> .deposit
23:50:11 <Wallet> abcdefg_irssi: Your default coin is now set to XMR. Change with coins command.
23:50:11 <Wallet> abcdefg_irssi: Send XMR to 8C89n3DEh8LHFicY7NK9raURLbYiV2xep7c1xxSJtDbpPYWkXaqQFt2irQ7hPbd8xdNLFTNyWLPNSBfLB7vurgXEJ3duN8x | credited after 3 confirms.
23:50:25 <abcdefg_irssi> .withdraw
23:50:25 <Wallet> abcdefg_irssi: Help: .withdraw <address|info> <amount|all> - Sends 'amount' coins to the specified address. Use 'all' for amount to send the whole balance
23:50:26 <Bill48105> hey you actually took the time to register & got it done right grats
23:50:38 <Bill48105> most commands work in pm to Wallet btw
23:50:44 <abcdefg_irssi> Okay cool
23:50:46 <nioc> what people will do for $$$ :)
23:50:51 <abcdefg_irssi> just playing around with it
23:50:51 <Bill48105> kek
23:51:00 <Bill48105> wait til he finds out faucet eh
23:51:03 <Bill48105> BOING!
23:51:08 <abcdefg_irssi> oh damn a FAUCET
23:51:10 <abcdefg_irssi> .faucet
23:51:10 <Wallet> abcdefg_irssi: How many #'s are i​n 87
23:51:14 <abcdefg_irssi> 87
23:51:15 <Wallet> abcdefg_irssi: Oops that is not correct. Try again later.
23:51:18 <Bill48105> rekyt
23:51:19 <abcdefg_irssi> 2
23:51:20 <abcdefg_irssi> LMAO
23:51:20 <rupee[m]> <pe41[m] "Yup, it is. Thank you very much "> wouldn't you still expect some of the payouts to have more than 1 recipient? even if it's all the same person, but using multiple payment ids, it should still send to more than one address
23:51:35 <apotheon> abcdefg_irssi: You should definitely do things like deposits and withdrawals outside of public channels.
23:51:43 <abcdefg_irssi> ya
23:51:43 <Bill48105> but yeah feel free to use the bot in one of the bot channels.. like it's in #tippero or ##wallet & #walletbot
23:51:49 <apotheon> 23:50 < nioc> what people will do for $$$ :)
23:51:53 <apotheon> nioc: I would accept money.
23:51:56 <abcdefg_irssi> I'm not gonna spam the chat just wanted to see
23:52:02 <Bill48105> $20 is $20
23:52:03 <apotheon> What would you do for a Klondike bar?
23:52:17 <apotheon> abcdefg_irssi: I meant for the sake of your own privacy.
23:52:58 <nioc> people have offered me shitcoins b4 and I politely declined
23:53:14 <Bill48105> maybe abc was fishing for free deposits hoping someone would send some :D
23:53:16 <abcdefg_irssi> i have 18 trillion japanese chin tokens i will give out for free just to get it out of my metamask wallet
23:53:23 <apotheon> nioc: Is BCH a shitcoin for you?
23:53:25 <Bill48105> good luck witht hat
23:53:51 <nioc> apotheon: it's usless
23:54:08 <apotheon> I know someone who pays his hosting bills with BCH.
23:54:32 <Bill48105> useless is strong word when you literally just swapped it instantly & fee free for monero..
23:54:44 <apotheon> good point
23:54:55 <apotheon> It's useful for acquiring Monero!
23:55:00 <nioc> Bill48105: I first tried to burn it
23:55:00 <apotheon> in small quantities
23:55:00 <Bill48105> indeed
23:55:17 <Bill48105> even burning creates heat for warmth or cooking
23:55:37 <nioc> probably a large % of it is burnt
23:56:21 <apotheon> theoretically perfect-efficiency machine: space heater in a dark room when you want warmth and the equivalent of a night light
23:57:13 <apotheon> new definition of "inflationary": having quantities of BTC in various addresses equivalent to <10USD
23:57:28 <apotheon> s/inflationary/deflationary/
23:57:29 <apotheon> shit
23:57:33 <apotheon> How did I get that backward?
23:58:56 <apotheon> At some point, someone's going to have to change the BTC protocol to make it possible to consolidate small quantities for free to avoid 21M turning into 0 transactable BTC.
23:59:59 <apotheon> For a cryptocurrency that's cheaper to move around, that probably won't be a serious problem before it gets supplanted by something new, but with BTC it could just die of systemic illiquidity in the next decade for all I know.