00:48:28 <michaelmrose> So where is a legit exchange that does business in BTC and monero?
00:49:01 <michaelmrose> Seems hard to discern what legitimacy is when firefox warns me that monero.org isn't ssl secured and that it is trying to mine crypto
00:49:27 <michaelmrose> never mind it was a look alike
00:50:39 <michaelmrose> actually weirder monero.org is but monero.org/services/echange isn't odd
00:55:50 <nioc> getmonero.org is the correct monero site
00:56:29 <nioc> kraken is legit and offers monero and ofc btc
00:56:56 <nioc> michaelmrose: ^^
04:47:08 <tokineko[m]> Yo.
04:47:45 <tokineko[m]> Does anyone see me?
04:48:01 <donkeydonkey[m]> si
04:48:20 <tokineko[m]> Is triptych zero-knowledge proof system?
05:49:51 <h2017_> "Triptych uses a zero-knowledge proving system to construct a particular type of linkable ring signature that can be used in confidential transaction protocols."
05:50:10 <h2017_> that's from https://www.getmonero.org/2020/08/22/triptych.html
05:50:19 <tokineko[m]> I read it.
05:50:31 <h2017_> so it says that tryptich uses a zero-knowledge proving system. it doesn't say that it is one
05:50:48 <tokineko[m]> How is triptych's zero knowledge proof different from zero-knowledge proof shielded transactions on ZCash and Firo?
06:05:17 <tokineko[m]> Would monero benefit by adopting trustless zero-knowledge-proof shielded transaction pool of ZCash(Halo 2)?
06:11:27 <h2017_> i don't know, personally. halo2 isn't implented yet i think. they don't even know if they can get it to perform satisfactorily anyway
06:12:29 <tokineko[m]> To me, trustless zero-knowledge-proof shielded transaction pool looks more private than ring signature.
06:23:15 <saltyboimagnus> How stupid of an idea is it to create a wallet on an offline computer, and save the recovery key on multiple USB drives (Encrypted)?
06:23:55 <saltyboimagnus> I'm paranoid about losing a single one, and worried about driver failure
06:26:22 <floam412_> not that bad of an idea... I mean you could be buying Bitcoin through PPbux
06:27:46 <saltyboimagnus> hahah
06:35:59 <h2017_> tokineko[m], i'm not one of the math wizes here so i can't help you but i feel strongly that the zec guys often fud about monero. for instance one of their guys gave a slideshow about the weaknesses of ring signatures but he implied that the decoys are chosen at random (they're not) and that the types of attacks he mentioned weren't mitigated (they are).
06:36:49 <h2017_> i guess eventually the monero devels will think of ways to increase the anonyminity set to infinity but in the meantime monero is working well
06:38:27 <tokineko[m]> It's possible for neural net AIs to see through ring signatures of large sizes if my spending habits are analyzable.
06:39:09 <tokineko[m]> @h201
06:39:23 <h2017_> tokineko[m], the selection algorithm is supposed to mitigate against that kind of attack
06:39:57 <tokineko[m]> h2017_: shielded transaction pool's anonymity set increases with each transaction.
06:40:15 <tokineko[m]> This is as close to infinity as you get.
06:40:20 <h2017_> tokineko[m], yes i know
06:40:38 <h2017_> but in reality it has no practical advantage when monero is working
06:40:51 <tokineko[m]> Monero should migrate from ring signatures to one shielded transaction pool.
06:43:12 <h2017_> note that seth simmons did a performance comparison with zcash and monero wins in every category
06:43:32 <h2017_> https://sethsimmons.me/posts/comparing-private-spends/
06:44:04 <h2017_> so let's not kill the goose that lays the golden egg by opting for theoretical perfection in one specific category
06:44:17 <tokineko[m]> Ring signature will eventually succumb to blockchain analysis by neural-net AIs.
06:44:30 <h2017_> tokineko[m], that's something that would have to be proven empirically
06:44:59 <tokineko[m]> It is already susceptible in some edge cases...
06:47:30 <tokineko[m]> If I receive coins from A and send the received outputs to B many times a day and A and B share information, the transaction outputs are susceptible to timing analysis.
07:02:21 <saltyboimagnus> How can we be sure that the Ledger is safe? It's not opensource right?
07:02:40 <saltyboimagnus> I mean they couldn't keep their website secure lmao
07:03:51 <raecarruth> i wouldn't trust them
07:05:40 <tokineko[m]> Trust offline signing machine.
07:06:04 <nioc> from zcash "And by the way, I think we can successfully make Zcash too traceable for criminals like WannaCry, but still completely private & fungible."
07:07:04 <tokineko[m]> ZCash and ZCoin were created by Johns Hopkins university and Isreal which have deep connections with the central banking system. Pirate Chain takes technology from them and doesn't co-operate with the banking system.
07:07:39 <nioc> u r u hear
07:07:51 <nioc> *y r u hear
07:09:02 <nioc> time for me to dream of electric sheep
07:09:04 <nioc> gn
07:09:28 <tokineko[m]> ZCash and ZCoin want to co-operate with the banks. Pirate Chain doesn't.
07:09:30 <tokineko[m]> I guess I will move to monero forum....
07:29:04 <saltyboimagnus> People say things like make a wallet and keep it off the internet. Okay, but what happens when the drive fails??
07:29:28 <saltyboimagnus> So, at the end of the day, you still need to manage the recovery key
07:44:14 <shabash> new windows client is very nice :)
07:49:27 <chrisavis[m]> Hello. Is luigi1111 in this chat?
07:49:39 <shabash> idk
08:49:58 <Beags[m]> > People say things like make a wallet and keep it off the internet. Okay, but what happens when the drive fails??
08:49:58 <Beags[m]> I often wonder why more people dont just spend a little time to properly memorize their seed phrase, even if just as an additional backup. refresh it in your memory regularly so you dont forget it. Its crazy when you hear these stories about people losing their millions worth of crypto because it was on a compromised device, and they dont have the seed memorized. you think it'd be a tiny amount of effort when compared to the
08:49:58 <Beags[m]> amounts of money they're dealing with.
08:58:05 <Inge-> um. There are two distinct issues here. One is a compromised device where someone else actually steals your crypto, the other issue is that you lose access to it by losing your private key
09:33:06 <Beags[m]> ah, i rather meant misplaced or destroyed. i recognize that knowing your seed phrase isnt going to help you keep control of your coins if someone gets into your wallet.
09:33:24 <Beags[m]> i suppose unless you manage to beat them to transferring the coins to another wallet
10:12:50 <AMeMario> What is Tari?
10:19:39 <AMeMario> Monero inflation bug? boards.4channel.org/biz/thread/26234830
11:13:48 <endor00[m]> Ah yes, another 4chan fud thread by ~investors~ speculators crying for their moon lambos. I swear, not even babies are this needy
11:14:06 <endor00[m]> * Ah yes, another 4chan fud thread by ~~investors~~ speculators crying for their moon lambos. I swear, not even babies are this needy
11:18:25 <_I3^RELATIVISM> ahah endor00 true
11:20:29 <_I3^RELATIVISM> early signs of vuvvle poping I guess
11:20:39 <_I3^RELATIVISM> if there are fuds already
11:36:53 <styxx[m]> https://odysee.com/@AlphaNerd:8/how-monero-works-and-why-its-a-better:a
11:37:13 <styxx[m]> love and anarchy brothers
11:38:08 <styxx[m]> and sisters
12:16:03 <_I3^RELATIVISM> anarchia = ana + archia (ancient greek)
12:16:43 <_I3^RELATIVISM> meaning agaisnt power structures
12:17:05 <_I3^RELATIVISM> for the unentended, not agaisnt gvornment of democratic organizations
12:17:15 <_I3^RELATIVISM> of=or
12:25:22 <Pixy> hi, a question with perhaps an obvious answer: what, if any, are the privacy disadvantages of using a remote node you don't own with your monero wallet?
12:26:31 <sech1> they'll know when you send transactions and from what IP address
12:27:16 <sech1> they can also trick you into thinking that you received some XMR while in reality you didn't
12:27:23 <Pixy> so half of that could be mitigated using something like tor
12:27:43 <Pixy> ah, because they have jurisdiction over the copy of the blockchain you're using
12:27:45 <Pixy> fair enough
12:27:58 <moneromooo> And a lot more attack surface. This interface was not meant to be untrusted.
12:28:23 <sech1> CLI wallet even has a special command line flag to mark remote node as "trusted"
12:29:12 <moneromooo> It's basically like when you want to keep your privacy bit you pick some random person on the street and tell them ehat you want kept private.
12:29:16 <moneromooo> It's just... dumb.,
12:29:29 <_I3^RELATIVISM> Pixy: TOR has its loopholes as well
12:29:45 <moneromooo> Sure, chances are it'll stay mostly private in practice, but it's just russian roulette.
12:29:54 <_I3^RELATIVISM> you should never assume something is 100 bublerwraped
12:30:29 <moneromooo> If you use tor to connect to one, it becomes mostly safe from the wallet side.
12:30:47 <moneromooo> You can get DoSed of course, but privacy's mostly maintained.
12:30:50 <Pixy> but then the issue of fake blocks is of course still there
12:31:33 <moneromooo> There are ways to code around some of this, but it seems pointless to spend time and effort when the better answer is "don't do it then".,
12:32:00 <Pixy> reasonable
12:32:37 <Pixy> what about hosting a monero node on a server that is tied to your personal identity, and being one of a handful of people to use it?
12:33:18 <Pixy> is there any way your interactions with such a node yield more attack surface?
12:36:00 <moneromooo> If it's your server, you can just enforce SSL and whitelist fingerprints.
12:36:33 <moneromooo> Of course if that server is a "cloud" server, then root can monkey with it, technically.
12:36:47 <moneromooo> Or whoever runs the hypervisor.
12:36:59 <Pixy> yeah, the server i'm thinking about is one i have hardware and root access to
12:37:07 <moneromooo> That's way more unlikely though.
12:37:39 <moneromooo> Then it boils down to who can break SSL.
12:38:17 <Pixy> i'm just going to assume SSL is still okay in this day and age :P
12:38:43 <Pixy> does the daemon have its own
12:38:47 <Pixy> no forget about it
12:38:52 <Pixy> it's an rtfm question
12:39:10 <Pixy> i was going to ask if an SSH tunnel would be a decent idea for the SSL and fingerprinting or if there's builtin functionality
12:39:23 <Pixy> thanks for the replies :)
12:39:28 <moneromooo> Built in.
12:41:49 <charolastra> always assume that certain entities have the root certificates of various CAs
12:42:58 <moneromooo> (which is the point of fingerprint whitelisting, since it's not obvious I think)
13:44:39 <strngelet> hi all
13:45:00 <strngelet> i need help
13:45:17 <pixelized[m]> don't we all, comrade
13:45:53 <strngelet> i tried mining monero a few years ago when it basically started but my hardware was shit pixelized
13:46:09 <strngelet> so now im looking to buy some and set up smart contracts
13:46:32 <strngelet> can you link me to something that will teach me how smart contracts work?
13:47:22 <strngelet> i spent like a year learning about all the proofs of -x and other things and ended up super confused
13:47:28 <moneromooo> Lookup "ethereum", ask those people.
13:47:46 <pixelized[m]> yeah, i only know about smart contracts with regards to ethereum
13:47:48 <strngelet> my friend studying it got like 5 million in VC for stuff like this but it was so complicated to me
13:47:56 <strngelet> oh nice
13:47:56 <Lyza> in all seriousness,xmr has no smart contracts
13:48:23 <strngelet> oh that explains why it was hard to get info
13:48:48 <Lyza> yeah xmr scripting is even more limtied than btc
13:49:04 <strngelet> those two tips will save me a few hours of reading the wrong thing ty both Lyza and pixellized
13:49:16 <strngelet> l*
13:49:33 <strngelet> people have developed some epic code around all this
13:49:33 <pixelized[m]> 👍️ :)
13:49:49 <strngelet> there will probably be degrees in crypto in college soon
13:50:07 <pixelized[m]> there already are
13:50:17 <strngelet> o.0
13:50:30 <strngelet> wish i could get a student loan
13:50:35 <pixelized[m]> i'm not sure about cryptocurrency but there are masters in cryptography
13:51:39 <strngelet> i was on irc channels at the start of bitcoin but have always been too broke to buy one even when they were $0.01 each
13:51:54 <strngelet> never too late tp start though
13:51:59 <strngelet> o*
13:52:09 <pixelized[m]> and there are definitely singular courses in cryptocurrency
13:52:29 <pixelized[m]> i took a networking class which had some cryptocurrency in it, for some reason
13:52:33 <pixelized[m]> unexpected but a nice surprise
13:52:56 <strngelet> wow Cisco CCNA module 1 + Bitcoin
13:53:08 <pixelized[m]> <strngelet "wish i could get a student loan"> move to europe 😉
13:53:09 <strngelet> for todays unique networking problems
13:53:57 <strngelet> "my credit is so bad they won't take my cash" - Dave Chapelle I think
14:38:24 <sadfasdfsadfasd> 2021-01-20 11:20:57.132 W WARNING: no two valid DNS TXT records were received
14:38:40 <sadfasdfsadfasd> did the blocklist got ddos'ed
14:43:50 <moneromooo> more likely your DNS is borked
14:45:12 <moneromooo> Try running monero-utils-dns-checks (ypou need to have built the debug version)
14:57:39 <styxx[m]> is the olm/magolm encryption good?
15:43:33 <gingeropolous> heeey who wants to do some paperwork!?!?!?
15:49:13 <raecarruth> taxes?
15:50:03 <gingeropolous> naw, work work
15:51:54 <sir_poppins[m]> wink wink nudge nudge
15:51:56 <sir_poppins[m]> ?
15:54:56 <raecarruth> o_0
15:57:24 <gingeropolous> i hate paperwork. drains me of any momentum. hence why im venting here. sorry .
15:58:13 <sir_poppins[m]> all good man
15:58:15 <raecarruth> no problem
15:58:21 <raecarruth> nobody enjoys paperwork
15:58:24 <raecarruth> besides nutjobs
16:00:19 <sir_poppins[m]> any one here did any cloud mining ?
16:00:38 <sethsimmons> <sir_poppins[m] "any one here did any cloud minin"> Cloud mining is *always* a scam.
16:00:46 <sethsimmons> Or at the very least a bad deal.
16:00:53 <gingeropolous> 99.999% scam
16:00:59 <sethsimmons> Monero makes mining on your own hardware straightforward.
16:01:54 <hyc> can never earn more than the hourly charge. most times can't even get within 50% of it
16:02:09 <sir_poppins[m]> XD XD XD
16:02:09 <sir_poppins[m]> no get a VPS
16:02:09 <sir_poppins[m]> drop a miner on it
16:02:52 <floam412> Want to hire: Web developer for business website
16:03:48 <floam412> you can reach me here, by word of mouth (probably) or I will have a website up soon /PaidAdvertisingB0T
16:04:15 * sethsimmons sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/sfSXQIYrwPizjdHiVJKwxWBv/message.txt >
16:05:10 <sir_poppins[m]> ill be happy with 1 usd a day
16:35:16 <Adamas[m]> is there any examples of a cryptocurrency having decentralized mining software baked into the official protocol?
16:36:22 <Adamas[m]> decentralized pool mining **
16:51:51 <strngelett> i don;t know where to say this but did i just hear J-lo ad-lib her song during the inauguration that the election was a scam about 3 minutes ago?
16:52:04 <strngelett> i don;t speak spanish
16:52:28 <strngelett> it was youtube subtitles
17:06:58 <midipoet> strngelett: yes. Just before J-Lo brought out her semi automatic machine gun and mowed down all the security guards so the patriots could regain what is rightfully theirs.
17:13:54 <oceanus[m]> J-Lo for president
17:33:15 * lkcl waves.  nice chanserv intro.
17:34:08 <styxx[m]> <_I3^RELATIVISM "for the unentended, not agaisnt "> 1530s, "absence of government," from French anarchie or directly from Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek anarkhia "lack of a leader, the state of people without a government" (in Athens, used of the Year of Thirty Tyrants, 404 B.C., when there was no archon), abstract noun from anarkhos "rulerless," from an- "without" (see an- (1)) + arkhos "leader" (see archon).
17:34:45 <styxx[m]> democracy is still hierarchical
17:35:31 <lkcl> hi folks, i'm developing a hybrid 3D CPU-GPU-VPU, there's a new NLnet Grant out http://nlnet.nl/assure and i'd like to put in an application to add fundamental cryto-primitives to the architecture
17:36:00 <lkcl> i am looking for the right people to speak to about two issues
17:36:33 <lkcl> firstly, in general: for advice on what to implement.  (i found the cryptonote implementation which is a good guide)
17:37:19 <lkcl> secondly: how to ensure i don't piss people off because if successful and it ends up in silicon it'll be exceptionally powerful and effective at mining monero
17:38:39 <styxx[m]> there was never a real democracy - as long as we have a centralized financial system we will always have a plutocracy
17:38:40 <styxx[m]> if a bunch of stupid npc's are democrats its even worse
17:39:05 <lkcl> this is just the nature of *hybrid* CPU-GPU Vector Processors: GPU-like bitmanip processing power with CPU-like memory characteristics that will bypass the limitations assumed of GPU Memory layout
17:40:26 <styxx[m]>  * there was never a real democracy - as long as we have a centralized financial system we will always have a plutocracy - plutocrats influencing the populus through bought off media
17:40:59 <sech1> lkcl add AES support
17:41:05 <sech1> and FP64 support
17:42:04 <lkcl> sech1: thx.  Rijndael is planned by doing MixColumns in-place using GF(2^8) and byte-level "Matrix" reordering
17:42:12 <hyc> lkcl: luke is that you?
17:42:19 <lkcl> hyc: yaman :)
17:42:23 <hyc> figures :P
17:42:25 <sech1> I don't know what's your constraints on instruction set, but see https://github.com/tevador/RandomX/blob/master/doc/specs.md#52-integer-instructions
17:42:32 <sech1> and also section 5.3 there
17:42:45 <lkcl> sech1, star
17:42:55 <styxx[m]>  * there was never a real democracy - as long as we have a centralized financial system we will always have a plutocracy - plutocrats influencing the populus through bought off media, public schools, universities and so on.
17:45:27 <lkcl> ok so the FP64 ops are used to compute some "stuff" that's deliberately spread out across large amounts of RAM.
17:46:20 <lkcl> that's easily doable.
17:46:25 <_I3^RELATIVISM> styxx: Im greek and have studie ancient greek
17:46:36 <_I3^RELATIVISM> that translation is incorrect
17:46:57 <_I3^RELATIVISM> the literal translation is the rejection of unecessary power structures
17:47:00 <sech1> lkcl also read https://github.com/tevador/RandomX/blob/master/doc/design.md
17:47:10 <_I3^RELATIVISM> not rejection of organization
17:47:23 <lkcl> sech1: star
17:47:30 <_I3^RELATIVISM> that is just a american takeover of the word styxx
17:47:58 <styxx[m]> https://www.etymonline.com/word/anarchy
17:48:02 <lkcl> dynamic proof of work: ha!  you should have looked at MROB's RIES :)
17:48:02 <hyc> I'm skeptical of the memory claims. You can't physically build a DRAM that's good for both sequential streaming (as GPUs) and for fully random access
17:48:50 <lkcl> hyc: we'll use standard ECC DDR4 in the initial (not high performance compute) versions
17:49:32 <lkcl> probably cranking it up to Gen-Z, OpenCAPI and other so-insane-it's-hard-to-conceptualise memory architectures
17:50:19 <lkcl> hyc: have you seen the numbers on the IBM POWER10?  i... am having difficulty mentally accepting the FPops performance numbers :)
17:50:40 <hyc> no, I stopped keeping track at POWER9
17:52:03 <lkcl> lol
17:52:10 <hyc> Not like they have huge market share these days. basically mainframe only
17:52:50 <lkcl> it's a big enough market if they can stay there.  with the expertise in-house in IBM that's likely
17:52:57 <lkcl> sech1: http://mrob.com/pub/ries/
17:53:41 <lkcl> it's a monte-carlo algorithm generator :)  based on FORTH
17:55:39 <lkcl> hey cool it looks like the exact same principles are used as in RIES!  a bytecode system, right?
17:55:45 <lkcl> is it Turing complete? :)
17:56:40 <hyc> there are some deliberate limitations in the branch instructions
17:56:44 <hyc> but otherwise, probably yes
17:57:21 <lkcl> coooool
17:58:01 <styxx[m]> <_I3^RELATIVISM "styxx: Im greek and have studie "> you have studied bullshit then
17:58:18 <_I3^RELATIVISM> aha you are funny
17:58:28 <_I3^RELATIVISM> do you speak ancient greek styxx ?
17:58:30 <styxx[m]> no offense
17:59:22 <hyc> lkcl: may want to continue in #monero-pow
17:59:23 <_I3^RELATIVISM> styxx: also I would advise you checkout http://www.anarchistfaq.com/ I think there is also reference for that
17:59:31 <lkcl> hyc: thx
17:59:40 <_I3^RELATIVISM> many unix projects also have a gtk qt app for such styxx
19:11:18 <selsta> I added ~200 new IPs to my block list: https://gui.xmr.pm/files/block.txt
19:21:06 <Adamas[m]> <selsta "I added ~200 new IPs to my block"> blocklist is still necessary?
19:21:24 <selsta> not necessary currently
19:36:55 <msavoritias[m]> <_I3^RELATIVISM "styxx: also I would advise you c"> There is no justified hierarchy. According to anarchists that respect themselves at least
19:37:20 <msavoritias[m]> People that say there is are probably something else.
19:37:25 <_I3^RELATIVISM> that is just a american effort
19:37:40 <msavoritias[m]> Same as anarcho capitalists. Its fairytales
19:37:48 <_I3^RELATIVISM> not the roots of anarchist works
19:37:55 <_I3^RELATIVISM> and history/roots
19:37:56 <msavoritias[m]> <_I3^RELATIVISM "that is just a american effort"> The word literally means that.
19:38:04 <_I3^RELATIVISM> including catalunia greece etc
19:38:18 <_I3^RELATIVISM> <msavoritias[m] "The word literally means that."> msavoritias: that is incorrect
19:38:22 <_I3^RELATIVISM> has stated before
19:38:34 <_I3^RELATIVISM> anarchia is a ancient greek work
19:38:39 <_I3^RELATIVISM> meaning an
19:38:41 <_I3^RELATIVISM> plus archia
19:39:04 <_I3^RELATIVISM> archia means hirearchy or abusive/unecessary power structures
19:39:19 <_I3^RELATIVISM> an mean negative the oposite
19:39:38 <_I3^RELATIVISM> so the meaning of the word is actually agaisnt power concentration
19:39:49 <_I3^RELATIVISM> not organizations or gvornment itself
19:39:53 <msavoritias[m]> I know. I am greek
19:40:03 <msavoritias[m]> You need to read some more anarchistic works.
19:40:05 <_I3^RELATIVISM> me to
19:40:16 <_I3^RELATIVISM> I also studied ancient greek
19:40:29 <_I3^RELATIVISM> Καλυ νιχτα
19:40:33 <msavoritias[m]> Maybe we have different definitions
19:41:03 <_I3^RELATIVISM> I would advise you check out a bit more of the anarchist leterature
19:41:29 <_I3^RELATIVISM> also rejection of all forms of organization would be counter productive
19:41:39 <_I3^RELATIVISM> given organization is necessary
19:41:50 <msavoritias[m]> You too. Anarchy has nothing to do with hierarchy
19:41:54 <msavoritias[m]> <_I3^RELATIVISM "also rejection of all forms of o"> Depends what you mean organization
19:42:13 <_I3^RELATIVISM> msavoritias: I notice you never replied to my greek statement
19:42:18 <msavoritias[m]> If you mean people meeting to discuss to do something that is okay
19:42:23 <_I3^RELATIVISM> so probably you are bullshiting
19:42:39 <msavoritias[m]> Sure
19:42:42 <_I3^RELATIVISM> and probably dont even know the hellenic language
19:43:28 <_I3^RELATIVISM> ετσι γιατυ δεν μιλασ?
19:43:41 <_I3^RELATIVISM> defenately a lie
19:44:17 <msavoritias[m]> Anyway.
19:46:00 <_I3^RELATIVISM> sure anyway given you never answer
19:46:08 <_I3^RELATIVISM> defenately not a greek
19:46:38 <_I3^RELATIVISM> a quick search would had avoid you a embarassement
19:47:29 <_I3^RELATIVISM> www.anarchistfaq.com
19:49:39 <msavoritias[m]> Μου αρεσει που βαζεις ενα site και βγαζεις την απαντηση σου. Επισης οργανισμος δεν ειναι ιεραρχια. Κοιτα τον στρατο για να καταλαβεις
19:50:46 <msavoritias[m]> Αμα νομιζεις οτι υπαρχουν καποιες ιεραρχιες που ειναι καλες σαν την κυβερνηση εχεις ακομα πολυ δρομο. Μην ανυσηχεις ομως ολοι τον καναμε. Ελπιζω καποια στιγμη να εισαι και εσυ εδω
19:51:22 <msavoritias[m]> <_I3^RELATIVISM "defenately not a greek"> .
19:51:58 <_I3^RELATIVISM> ah nice at least you are not a liar
19:52:07 <_I3^RELATIVISM> just lack of knowledge
19:52:39 <_I3^RELATIVISM> I would suggest you read a bit more on anarchists history
19:52:50 <_I3^RELATIVISM> and not just its modernist faction
19:53:17 <strngelettt> i missed the start of the anarchy debate
19:53:40 <_I3^RELATIVISM> is relating the origin of the word
19:53:44 <_I3^RELATIVISM> strngelettt:
19:56:53 <strngelettt> i think we are currently in an anarchy, when there is a set of videos of Biden graphically molesting little girls, AZ just agreed to a forensic examination of ballots today, on 30th December Georgia Legislature agreed the same and Michigan did this and found 68% fraud rate, there were 30k troops to protect against two (2) women in DC wearing MAGA hats and a host of other evidence.  Plud only 874 people voted for Kamala in the
19:56:53 <strngelettt> Deomcrats Primary 2019
19:57:13 <msavoritias[m]> <_I3^RELATIVISM "is relating the origin of the wo"> Literally the first result btw
19:57:18 <msavoritias[m]> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy
19:57:31 <msavoritias[m]> Do you see neccessary anywhere?
19:58:24 <_I3^RELATIVISM> that ispropaganda
19:58:53 <_I3^RELATIVISM> best to use history and formation of the movement
19:58:58 <strngelettt> i was one of 1.3 million people to watch the 13 hours of the Georgia hearings all the way through - then 300 million people have strong opinions though.  WITHOUT WATCHING
19:59:02 <_I3^RELATIVISM> and all works from anarchist writers
19:59:46 <strngelettt> think I'm gonna pay a cent of tax in the US again?
19:59:50 <_I3^RELATIVISM> msavoritias: not interesting to hear the opinion on society to what is anarchy
19:59:58 <_I3^RELATIVISM> but by actual anarchist
20:00:01 <_I3^RELATIVISM> s
20:00:21 <_I3^RELATIVISM> also the translation is pron for this mistake
20:00:22 <msavoritias[m]> Hahaha. So now we are getting somewhere. You think everything mainstream is a lie.
20:00:31 <msavoritias[m]> <_I3^RELATIVISM "but by actual anarchist"> You are not listening to those either so
20:00:34 <_I3^RELATIVISM> and if you are greek as you clame
20:00:53 <_I3^RELATIVISM> you should understand this given it is obvious
20:01:59 <_I3^RELATIVISM> you are much of a anarchist if you dont understand the basics of anarchist theory
20:02:17 <_I3^RELATIVISM> you might claim to do so to brush your ego
20:02:32 <_I3^RELATIVISM> but action without praxxis is just nonsense
20:03:50 <strngelettt> can anyone recommend a politics channel
20:04:05 <_I3^RELATIVISM> ahah
20:04:14 <_I3^RELATIVISM> rigor is important,
20:04:32 <_I3^RELATIVISM> so this propaganda isnt spread further
20:15:21 <nioc> I hear that organization is bad for organisms
21:03:00 <shirley_huang[m]> https://thefederalist.com/2021/01/19/democrats-pledge-to-fight-trump-rule-ensuring-banks-wont-refuse-service-to-conservatives/
21:42:31 <qrpnxz> Hello monero fans. The peercoin dev was telling me that "Dash is not private at all" and "you can easily find papers demonstrating how it's not private at all". I figured this would be the place to find such papers since google is no help.
21:44:23 <_I3^RELATIVISM> why not ask t the person that told you that?
21:44:42 <_I3^RELATIVISM> you should allways request references before acepting a argument
21:46:33 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> <qrpnxz "Hello monero fans. The peercoin "> If you care about privacy why are you using Google. Your
21:47:27 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> > <@freenode_qrpnxz:matrix.org> Hello monero fans. The peercoin dev was telling me that "Dash is not private at all" and "you can easily find papers demonstrating how it's not private at all". I figured this would be the place to find such papers since google is no help.
21:47:27 <u29601mg6ba93j[m>  * If you care about privacy why are you using Google. Your answer is in GitHub. DASH is a Bitcoin clone with an optional CoinJoin implementation that has not been improved in years.
21:47:38 <qrpnxz> because if i can't find something in ddg i just use google on tor since it's better
21:47:44 <u29601mg6ba93j[m>  * If you care about privacy why are you using Google? Your answer is in GitHub. DASH is a Bitcoin clone with an optional CoinJoin implementation that has not been improved in years.
21:48:36 <qrpnxz> something not changing in years doesn't mean it's broken but ok
21:49:17 <qrpnxz> anyway you are right relativism, he should just source me himself. Thanks anyway
21:49:22 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> Read the paper that Ryan Taylor sent to regulators proving that DASH privacy is no better than Bitcoin
21:53:33 <qrpnxz> well bitcoin privacy with mixing is fine, so that would be indication that it is pretty good
21:54:50 <lokartiz0> hello
21:54:51 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> lmao https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/introducing-chainalysis-investigation-compliance-support-dash-zcash
21:55:44 <nioc> so good that chainanalysis can track coinjoin
21:55:57 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> The CEO of DCG literally says Bitcoin offers more advanced privacy than DASH https://twitter.com/RTaylor05/status/1345158220239630337
21:56:23 <lokartiz0> if i send 5 monero to someone and other 0.2 to someone else fee will be the same?
21:57:06 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> https://twitter.com/RTaylor05/status/1345158222957559808
21:57:21 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> https://twitter.com/RTaylor05/status/1345158225746751488
21:58:21 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> DASH is a scam for many reasons, but if you care about privacy the material coming out of DCG should be enough to get you to run
21:58:53 <nioc> lokartiz0 the fee is determined by size so I would imagine the fee would be higher but probably less than is they were sent separately
21:59:07 <nioc> just guessing
22:00:20 <lokartiz0> if only size matter and the amount not this is very bad for small payments
22:00:51 <hyc> that's the way all of these blockechains work
22:00:59 <nioc> transaction cost is way less than a penny
22:01:50 <hyc> you're paying for the cost of transmitting, storing, validating the txn. it doesn't matter what the value is, every txn cost is based on its actual size
22:02:37 <nioc> So Dash hasn't changed from wen they were the most private to when the were the most transparent
22:04:43 <hyc> they have no principles, they just go for whatever angle makes them the most profit
22:17:03 <qrpnxz> u29601mg6ba93j[m: How do you call something as scam if it's being fully frank with you and adding value.
22:17:29 <_I3^RELATIVISM> is just walstreet marketing
22:21:05 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> the only thing truly unique about DASH is its instamine. Most of its heavily marketed features are just copied from other projects and rebranded or modified slightly. This includes its hashing algo, privatesend and chainlocks. most of its unique features are actually broken (instasend) or centralized (sporks)
22:21:50 <u29601mg6ba93j[m>  * The only thing truly unique about DASH that worked as intended was its instamine. Most of its heavily marketed features are just copied from other projects and rebranded or modified slightly. This includes its hashing algo, privatesend and chainlocks. Most of its other unique features are actually broken (instasend) or centralized (sporks)
22:22:00 <qrpnxz> what's broken about instantsend
22:22:04 <qrpnxz> works great
22:25:32 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/temporary-disabling-of-instandsend-due-to-potential-quorum-exploit-method.16492/page-2
22:26:34 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> there are still problems today. If you put more effort into looking you will find answers just like many answers exist to your privacy questions
22:27:12 <qrpnxz> ok, and now that's fixed. Why don't you post the problems that aren't fixed
22:28:20 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> not fixed. MNs are still paid even if they dont perform services they are supposed to provide to the network
22:29:12 <qrpnxz> link?
22:32:07 <qrpnxz> btw the paper cited by that chainanalysis linked only had dash doing two mixing rounds and seems contrived
22:38:12 <qrpnxz> what are monero fees like atm btw, what the blocktime
22:38:25 <qrpnxz> *what's the block time
22:38:33 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> https://www.reddit.com/r/DashUncensored/comments/fjugrp/dashs_chainlocks_and_instantsend_were_just_taken/
22:41:00 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> https://www.reddit.com/r/DashUncensored/comments/5ue84k/the_choice_between_pose_and_avoiding_a_masternode/
22:41:38 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> look up "lazy masternodes"
22:42:08 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/5t6kvc/lazy_masternodes_do_you_actually_have_to_do_any/
22:43:20 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> https://twitter.com/fluffypony/status/831138526037233664
22:44:58 <qrpnxz> comment reads: "Most of the Dash cultists will say "But a Masternode owner would never do something that might hurt Dash itself""
22:44:58 <qrpnxz> and that's true lmao. Masternodes are PoS (and not just a little bit of stake)
22:45:31 <qrpnxz> https://twitter.com/victorbx1/status/831193798323662849 well there you go lol
22:48:01 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> They have been talking about DASH evolution for years. I think its rebranded to DASH platform now
22:50:26 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> btw DASH evolution is a fork and rebrand of another project too
22:50:39 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> see GitHub
22:52:05 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> https://github.com/dashevo it is a copy of Tendermint
22:52:36 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> https://docs.tendermint.com/
22:54:26 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> Anyway @qrpnxz good luck with your DASH research.  Its a scam targeted at uneducated investors. Hopefully after doing more due diligence you will see that
22:56:06 <qrpnxz> i don't see how copying something good is in any way a downside
22:58:27 <selsta> what happened to dash labs
22:58:28 <selsta> lol
22:58:51 <qrpnxz> never heard of em
22:59:25 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> <qrpnxz "i don't see how copying somethin"> It is if they purposely pretend that they are innovating and building useful things when they are just copying and rebranding. MN owners dont really care about adoption, security, privacy or utilty. They want dumb investors to buy so the price goes up and they can vote with their instamined MNs for shitty projects they have an interest in
23:00:50 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> <selsta "what happened to dash labs"> https://www.reddit.com/r/DashUncensored/comments/dtz3xn/dash_labs_closes_down_we_do_not_wish_to_be/
23:00:50 <qrpnxz> how does the price going up hurt me
23:01:30 <selsta> u29601mg6ba93j[m: :D
23:01:32 <qrpnxz> lol the source of that is a suspended account
23:01:51 <moneromooo> This is really off topic here. If it's not dead yet, let it die.
23:02:58 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> Sorry Mooo. You are right. We cant save everyone. #darwinism
23:02:59 <qrpnxz> isn't the purpose of monero to produce people that hate dash /s jk, i can fuck off already if you want. Thanks for the opinions and links and all that
23:04:38 <qrpnxz> wait i never did get my on topic question answered: what are monero fees like atm and what is the block time
23:04:57 <moneromooo> bc_dyn_stats 1 in monerod, 2 min.
23:05:28 <qrpnxz> 1 coin per transaction?
23:05:33 <endor00[m]> Fees are like 0.0001 xmr/tx or so
23:05:36 <u29601mg6ba93j[m> > <@freenode_selsta:matrix.org> what happened to dash labs
23:05:36 <u29601mg6ba93j[m>  * https://www.reddit.com/r/DashUncensored/comments/e75xo3/leaked_dash_labs_slack_chat_reveals_possible/
23:05:45 <qrpnxz> ah ok thanks endor and mooo
23:06:07 <moneromooo> I meant bc_dyn_stats 1 will print the base fee per byte.
23:06:13 <endor00[m]> (Assuming you use lowest priority, which means you'll still get in the next block because there's no congestion anyway)
23:06:24 <qrpnxz> ah ok, i don't got your client downloaded lol
23:06:43 <qrpnxz> if it's ok i also wanted to ask what you guys thought about zcash
23:08:18 <endor00[m]> It has some interesting properties, but the trusted setup, the premine, and the massive devfee, are a no-go imo
23:08:58 <endor00[m]> Oh, and the opt-in privacy instead of opt-out, which effectively makes their anonimity pool useless because almost nobody uses it
23:08:58 <moneromooo> Are you sure there's a premine ? I did not hear of it.
23:09:08 <qrpnxz> what's the trusted setup, what is the problem with devfee, how does premine affect it this late into the game
23:09:23 <endor00[m]> Oh, perhaps I'm confusing the premine with some other coin
23:09:46 <qrpnxz> yeah i don't see here about premine
23:10:29 <qrpnxz> and good point about opt-in
23:10:45 <qrpnxz> that's one major problem of telegram
23:11:03 <endor00[m]> The zkSnark protocol used by zcash requires a trusted setup, ie a bunch of people who generated some private keys in an initiation ceremony in order to be able to start the coin, and then pinky promise that they deleted those keys
23:11:33 <endor00[m]> And if anyone were to get a hold of those keys, they could invisibly pint infinite coins
23:11:59 <qrpnxz> that is spicy, how do they try to prove that they really deleted
23:12:55 <endor00[m]> I don't remember all the details, but iirc they basically tried to make the event as public as possible and document every step and try to make it as transparent as possibile
23:13:08 <endor00[m]> But it still presents a massive risk
23:13:44 <qrpnxz> yeah that's rough. Alright I have now things to look up about it.
23:14:51 <endor00[m]> And there's also a nasty PR component in the whole thing which I particularly hate: they officially called those keys they generated "toxic waste" that they had to "dispose of". Which is a lousy psychological trick to try to push laypeople away from the subject, because "ew toxic waste"
23:15:28 <endor00[m]> It sounds silly, but this crap works. And the fact that somebody thought of it and applied it makes the whole thing much more shady in my eyes
23:16:34 <endor00[m]> Re: devfee. For quite a while, 20% of the block reward went to the wallets of the ZCash foundation (a for-profit company) as "dev fee"
23:16:44 <endor00[m]> That's a massive fucking fee
23:17:36 <endor00[m]> That effectively means 20% of the entire market cap in the hands of one entity, which could potentially sit on their asses and do fuckall and still get money printed straight into their own pockets by other people's work
23:18:14 <endor00[m]> They might have lowered it to like 10% a while back, not sure. But still, that's outright theft