01:42:16 <riceandbeans> So, if a pool doesn't get kickbacks, then how does a pool operate to get more money? What's the incentive to run the pool?
01:44:16 <moneromooo> They typically keep a slice of the block rewards.
01:44:35 <riceandbeans> Isn't that a pool fee?
01:45:28 <moneromooo> It is indeed called a pool fee.
01:46:33 <riceandbeans> https://monero.org/services/mining-pools/
01:46:39 <riceandbeans> Hence the fee in that chart
01:46:41 <riceandbeans> I guess
01:47:05 <moneromooo> FWIW that site is owned by a squatter/blackmailer. Careful about what you find there.
01:47:27 <moneromooo> (though no outright malware was ever found on it AFAIK)
01:48:25 <riceandbeans> I don't fear malware. I'm running DragonFly BSD and using Firefox. Most shit won't run on my rig anyway lol
01:48:34 <riceandbeans> I can't even get software I want to run here, let alone malware
01:48:39 <dsc_> No malware - but outdated Monero versions :/
01:49:17 <riceandbeans> Anyway, couldn't someone in the monero project complain to like icann or something to get the domain?
01:49:30 <riceandbeans> I mean they hand it over to people for malicious crap
01:49:36 <moneromooo> They apparently could. Probability of success unclear.
03:05:16 <bigslim[m]> Thanks for all your contributions monero team
05:52:27 <Inge-> hah. Saylor "maybe you need a monero"
05:58:44 <marmulak> gib monero
06:04:12 <nakedpony> imagine investing in a utility coin xD xD xD
06:08:15 <marmulak> explain
06:11:17 <marmulak> we're supposed to use subaddresses, right?
06:29:46 <Inge-> marmulak: subaddress good.
06:31:21 <artefact> i also mine xmr on my cpu. might as well get a (pitiful) amount of money back for heating my room in the cold months
06:33:01 <marmulak> Inge-: thanks, it was easy enough to figure out
06:33:42 <marmulak> and the subaddresses are for receiving, so I take it with monero the recipient doesn't know the sender's address, right
06:34:48 <Inge-> well the recipient NEVER knows the senders address, so that isn't an issue
06:35:21 <Inge-> but I can give you one subaddress and somebody else another subaddress -
06:35:44 <Inge-> instead of handing out the same address everywhere. this makes it much harder to correlate activity to me
06:39:37 <marmulak> indeed
06:41:30 <marmulak> I remember something about how on bitcoin-like cryptos if you use a lot of subaddresses (more than 100?) you need to keep your wallet backed up because the seed may not be enough information to get them all back? Or is the seed enough to find them all again
06:50:40 <Inge-> for Monero the seed is all you need
06:50:44 <algo_max[m]> With monero the seed is enough, if you had 10 sub-addresses and you restore your wallet from the seed, then create 10 sub-addresses again, they will be the same.
06:50:52 <Inge-> it is good for a few billion subaddresses ...
06:50:55 <Inge-> per account
06:51:01 <Inge-> and a few billion accounts
07:06:40 <fullmetalScience> Hi. What's meant by "unlock times are now deterministic" for the network upgrade?
08:03:08 <Inge-> isn't that the older change - that the 10-block unlock time for outputs is now enforced by the protocol?
09:02:29 <marmulak> btw can I have cryptonote flair in matrix
09:20:16 <d4ndo[m]> It seems that more transactions are made on weekdays than on weekends. https://postimg.cc/64dTPYkJ
09:21:13 <d4ndo[m]> Mo    Di      Mi      Do     Fr     Sa     So
09:21:14 <d4ndo[m]> 7125 7084 7128 7223 6777 6191 5947
09:25:09 <d4ndo[m]> And on Thursday most people order their cannabis for the weekend.
09:33:33 <d4ndo[m]> I did this with monero-blockchain-stats and a small Gnu R script.
09:35:04 <d4ndo[m]> Oh sorry the weekday is in german.
09:36:22 <charolastra> guess they use it up on the WE and then have to restock on mondays
09:40:05 <d4ndo[m]> So if you want to be as inconspicuous as possible, then Monday or Thursday is best. XD
10:28:38 <ErCiccione[H]> test
10:36:13 <dEBRUYNE> Inge-: Yes, this was already added last network upgrade
10:44:10 <alexanarcho[m]> having an issue with starting the stagenet monerod... getting the following error E Exception in main! locale::facet::_S_create_c_locale name not valid
10:44:28 <alexanarcho[m]> my locale is all english and before the update to 17.1. it was working fine...
10:45:32 <marmulak> o rly
10:45:43 <alexanarcho[m]> i cannot start monerod at all wether with stagenet flag or not
10:49:47 <alexanarcho[m]> 17.0.0 has the same issue
10:50:43 <alexanarcho[m]> 16.0.3 is working though... this is super strange
10:52:34 <alexanarcho[m]> (i use arch btw)
10:52:53 <p3rL> .pap sushi
10:59:23 <fluffypony> alexanarcho[m]: known issue
10:59:33 <fluffypony> do this
10:59:38 <fluffypony> LANG=C LC_ALL=C ./monerod
10:59:43 <fluffypony> moneromooo: ^^
10:59:50 <alexanarcho[m]> thanks!
10:59:54 <fluffypony> definitely a regression in 0.17
11:00:11 <raecarruth> ohai fellas :)
11:00:28 <alexanarcho[m]> perfect, now it works, is this a one time command or should i always start the monerod like this?
11:03:04 <fluffypony> you'll always have to until this is fixed
11:06:21 <alexanarcho[m]> no problem, just added it to my bash alias
11:06:53 <dEBRUYNE> alexanarcho[m]: Would you mind creating a brief Monero SE guide for it?
11:07:04 <dEBRUYNE> Then we can easily link to that in case anyone else asks
11:07:24 <alexanarcho[m]> <dEBRUYNE "alexanarcho: Would you mind crea"> whats monero SE?
11:07:41 <fluffypony> stack exchange
11:07:47 <alexanarcho[m]> yep
11:08:08 <dEBRUYNE> https://monero.stackexchange.com/
11:08:10 <dEBRUYNE> ^ That yes
11:08:18 <dEBRUYNE> You can open a new question and answer it
11:08:23 <dEBRUYNE> Not necessarily for someone else to provide an answer
11:08:28 <dEBRUYNE> Not necessary*
11:14:24 <alexanarcho[m]> https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/12432/how-to-fix-exception-in-main-localefacet-s-create-c-locale-name-not-valid/12433#12433
11:15:58 <dEBRUYNE> Looks good, thanks
11:17:31 <alexanarcho[m]> glad i could be of help
11:24:00 <moneromooo> alexanarcho[m]: I need a stack trace for where this happens. There's a startup check to sanitize LANG/LC_ALL, but it looks like it doesn't catch everything.
11:24:24 <moneromooo> (ie, see what call from monero ends up causing this)
11:24:44 <moneromooo> The trace will be in the log file, on log level 0. You need libunwind comiled in.
11:41:37 <fullmetalScience> Inge-, dEBRUYNE: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/commit/4971219c2cd5eae7060f17be077b909b6bd4695b
11:42:29 <dEBRUYNE> That's different
11:42:46 <dEBRUYNE> Previous HF ensured minimum unlock time of 10 blocks was enforced
11:42:53 <dEBRUYNE> That commit makes the unlock_time variable deterministic
11:48:43 <d4ndo[m]> Ok- Here are the distribution of transactions 2020 https://postimg.cc/jWySTNyQ
11:49:31 <d4ndo[m]> And weekdays for 2020 https://postimg.cc/nXjLdNzW
13:59:10 <Inge-> pretty boring distribution :D
14:00:24 <copenhagen_bram[> If atomic swaps are eventually possible between Monero and Bitcoin, will they be used with xmr.to?
14:05:21 <binaryFate> what advantage/drawback would you see?
14:09:58 <Inge-> ooof
14:13:33 <yanmaani> binaryFate: users can be sure you don't take the money and split
14:13:49 <yanmaani> (or that there's no software bug where the money just vanishes into smoke)
14:14:25 <binaryFate> yeah that's the only advantage. But for an established incorporated business running since 5.5 years this fear does not seem to bother much people
14:15:16 <yanmaani> will be interesting to see if atomic swaps has a material impact on the market. If you can do them, then XMR <-> XBT's decentralized liquidity will be much better.
14:15:44 <binaryFate> downside is terribly slow processing, you need 2 transactions to take place on each chain (BTC blocks are 10mn).
14:15:48 <alexanarcho[m]> yeah, but i imagine a lot of shady people will try to wash their tainted bitcoins that way
14:15:59 <yanmaani> alexanarcho[m]: right, you'll have a lot of extremely tainted coins
14:16:07 <binaryFate> you would still have to place significant trust in xmrto not to give you terribly dirty BTC.
14:16:28 <yanmaani> But like, will we see bisq-esque services for XBTXMR atomic swaps?
14:16:43 <binaryFate> so you remove the trust about "running away with the funds", but the trust about "don't send me terrible BTC" remains.
14:16:55 <yanmaani> binaryFate: Since you can see on-chain it was atomic swapped, I'll guess the Chainalysis catamites will mark it tainted as all hell
14:16:58 <kayabaNerve> I don't know why xmr.to would move to atomic swaps, especially given their role as a website and not an app
14:17:17 <kayabaNerve> Atomic swaps enable secure, decentralized trading. They're the perfect way to exchange one crypto for another.
14:17:21 <kayabaNerve> Though yes, latency.
14:17:31 <yanmaani> the latency also means the price is worse
14:17:46 <kayabaNerve> So Bisq uses a multisig, and because of that, has an extensive/poor arbitration service. Atomic swaps don't have that at all
14:17:47 <yanmaani> so there may be a pecuniary advantage to xmr.to
14:17:58 <yanmaani> Bisq is a total joke
14:18:02 <kayabaNerve> That said, humorously, the atomic swap protocol is based off multisigs (sort of)
14:18:02 <yanmaani> tried to use it, it was awful
14:18:04 <kayabaNerve> Yep
14:18:14 <binaryFate> I hope there will be all sort of markets. (I'm super curious where the price ends up or how a market can form when nobody vets for the BTC). But for something that is all about convenience when you want to make a purchase (xmrto case), I don't see the benefit at all
14:18:39 <raecarruth> openbazaar is better than bisq
14:18:40 <yanmaani> I don't think XBT will lose fungibility. You'll always be able to wash funds through miners.
14:18:44 <raecarruth> but they kinda shit the bed
14:18:55 <alexanarcho[m]> the main benefit i see for atomic swaps is that it makes it really hard to ban monero if you allow bitcoin.
14:19:08 <yanmaani> binaryFate: As long as the wallet doesn't integrate support for atomic swaps :)
14:19:24 <moneromooo> It'll probably be used mostly for infrequent large transfers, where the cost of conveninence is small compared to that of a scam.
14:20:01 <kayabaNerve> A LTC/XMR swap would only take five minutes, just as a heads up
14:20:02 <yanmaani> big transactions will cost a lot of money tho. Better to take small increments through xmr.to and friends
14:20:10 <kayabaNerve> Or 2 minutes for a ETH/XMR
14:20:30 <moneromooo> Maybe those mythical institutional investors, where falling for a scam might also open them up to legal challenge for lack of due diligence.
14:20:35 <kayabaNerve> Limiting factor on the latter is XMR
14:20:39 <binaryFate> Still in the best case you need 2 intertwined txs on each chain. That's 30mn on average provided the other party does not fall through at some point. Even integrated in a wallet, that's not the same convenience at all.
14:20:55 <yanmaani> kayabaNerve: Couldn't you use something insane like LN or something?
14:21:18 <yanmaani> I'm quite shocked there's no PoS sidechains for Bitcoin tbh. You could get PoS that isn't a scam with all the nice confirmations times etc that entails.
14:21:35 <yanmaani> [inb4 I get banned from #monero for "shilling altcoins"]
14:21:41 <kayabaNerve> yanmaani: I think? Yet you still need a XMR block
14:21:47 <kayabaNerve> Unless you get 0-conf
14:21:54 <yanmaani> are there any nice l2 solutions for monero?
14:22:02 <moneromooo> No.
14:22:05 <kayabaNerve> I mean, XMR 0-conf is better than BTC, but it's still unsafe and shouldn't be used
14:22:23 <kayabaNerve> No Layer Two, but Layer Moo coming soon? :P
14:22:29 <yanmaani> binaryFate: If it's for online shopping, you might be OK with the wait, especially if the wallet does the hassle for you.
14:22:55 <binaryFate> why zero-conf should not be used on Monero? Everyone is free to run their own risk-assessment depending on amounts
14:23:09 <binaryFate> xmrto accepts zeroconf for significant amounts, since years
14:23:52 <binaryFate> minko too. (Happy hour in 2.5h btw :)
14:24:20 <dsc_> Have not properly read the atomic swaps proposal but which wallet is going to implement it - if at all ? :-)
14:24:45 <yanmaani> I had a crazy idea like that. If tx1 is posted to the chain, and a double-spend of tx1 is posted in that block or in the next N blocks, X% gets sent to miners as reward and (100-X)% is burned
14:25:13 <yanmaani> If X = 0, that would go a long way towards making 0conf secure, since miners would still have incentive to include both because of the tx fees
14:25:22 <kayabaNerve> I'm trying to shill this one guy named dsc_ on getting it into feather :P
14:25:39 <moneromooo> You'd need to have amounts in the clear.
14:25:54 <kayabaNerve> binaryFate: Sure, you can use it if you install trust. Why would you install trust though? :P
14:25:59 <dsc_> kayabaNerve: does it come as a library we link against?
14:26:07 <kayabaNerve> sort of?
14:26:15 <kayabaNerve> If you write the C FFI binding
14:26:17 <dsc_> or separate bin?
14:26:27 <kayabaNerve> Either?
14:26:45 <yanmaani> moneromooo: Not if you're burning it, surely? Alternately, couldn't you say something like "you can send the whole UTXO to this address with known privkey, and then you can burn X% in tx fee"?
14:26:56 <dsc_> Ok lets talk about this in X time when its finished ^^
14:26:59 <kayabaNerve> asmr has a main file, yet it's completely not necessary. That said, it does manage an Electrum RPC/monerod/monero-wallet-cli connection so...
14:27:08 <yanmaani> kayabaNerve: atomic swap also needs trust
14:27:09 <kayabaNerve> Oh. Proposal will be a lib. 100%
14:27:17 <yanmaani> because there's still optionality
14:27:22 <kayabaNerve> yanmaani: Whole point is it's trustless
14:27:40 <kayabaNerve> I mean, yes, you 'trust' them to follow through, where if they don't, you waste the TX fees and your time
14:27:52 <kayabaNerve> But all you do is trust them to not be an ass
14:28:20 <kayabaNerve> dsc_: I was referring to the existing work :P Proposal will be an integrateable suite, 100%
14:28:22 <yanmaani> I pledge to buy XMR at price X, I now have a free call option {S = X, T = 30m}
14:28:32 <dsc_> kayabaNerve: cool cool
14:28:41 <kayabaNerve> Sounds like trust over the order book, not the swap
14:29:39 <yanmaani> K = X*
14:30:02 <yanmaani> kayabaNerve: there still needs to be trust somewhere :)
14:31:31 <moneromooo> yanmaani: I don't know. Moving an output altogether might work without amounts in the clear, but the "new owner" would need to know the blinding factor to reuse it I think. Crypto's not my domain though so I'm not sure.
14:31:57 <kayabaNerve> You're trusting a few cents in TX fees that they won't back out, not to mention the opportunity cost on locking your funds for ten minutes, yes.
14:32:06 <kayabaNerve> But that's it for the swap itself.
14:32:18 <kayabaNerve> When you broadcast a TX to a node, you trust they'll move it forward.
14:32:50 <yanmaani> moneromooo: no, the idea is you send it to a key that's already public
14:33:01 <yanmaani> so the miner can spend it by ordering the transactions properly
14:33:10 <yanmaani> but anyone can see what's happening, because they also have the privkey
14:33:31 <yanmaani> oh, nvm, I see what you mean
14:33:41 <yanmaani> yeah, OK. It's much simpler and more secure to burn it altogether then.
14:37:23 <moneromooo> Clever.
14:40:10 <binaryFate> Regardless whether technically possible, double spends happen a lot by mistake/bug/wallet crash... few of them I think are nefarious, would be very harsh on users to grab or burn their money
14:41:01 <binaryFate> Personally I would never flush my pool again :)
15:29:47 <MalMen> /4[0-9AB][123456789ABCDEFGHJKLMNPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijkmnopqrstuvwxyz]{93}/
15:30:14 <MalMen> for the new addresses its only change the 4 to an 8 right ? or there is something else that I should account for ?
15:30:18 <riceandbeans> kayabaNerve: I think the problem with eth/xmr would be that gas prices are obscene
15:31:17 <riceandbeans> MalMen: what are you writing that regex for?
15:31:25 <asy> MalMen: you could try decoding the address and checking the first byte, and then you can validate the checksum too
15:32:49 <MalMen> I didnt write it :P https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/1601/how-to-perform-a-simple-verification-of-a-monero-address-with-a-regular-expressi
15:33:03 <MalMen> I want to check if an given string is a valid address or not
15:55:01 <artefact> don't addresses have some kind of parity check?
16:00:36 <moneromooo> A 32 bit checksum.
16:00:45 <rotten> Minko happy hour kicking off in just one hour over at minko.to. Play and grow your Monero knowledge; trivia prizes will be very generous between 17:00 and 19:00 UTC.
16:01:11 <moneromooo> Or 8 bit... not sure.
16:01:40 <moneromooo> Looks like 8 bit.
16:08:04 <asy> .t utc
16:08:41 <xmrmatterbridge> <rbrunner7> Checksum for Monero addresses is 4 bytes. Can be seen and checked here: https://xmr.llcoins.net/addresstests.html
16:10:32 <xmrmatterbridge> <rbrunner7> One reason why they are so awfully long :)
16:13:07 <mmxxx[m]> hello rotten :)
16:13:43 <moneromooo> Odd. I see uint8_t get_account_address_checksum(const public_address_outer_blob& bl);
16:13:50 <moneromooo> Not the same thing then ?
16:15:11 <xmrmatterbridge> <rbrunner7> No idea. I just programmed those addresses inside out in that unspeakable entity's programming language recently and happened to remember.
16:24:47 <xmrmatterbridge> <rbrunner7> That's interesting: The method you mention is called in '/src/cryptonote_basic/cryptonote_basic_impl.cpp in a section commented "// Old address format"
16:26:37 <moneromooo> Ah, thanks.
16:27:00 <xmrmatterbridge> <rbrunner7> Funny that there ever was another address format it seems ...
16:27:42 <xmrmatterbridge> <rbrunner7> Maybe just simpler checksum, who knows
16:42:27 <d4ndo[m]> Is there any evidence that this is actually being practised with tainted Bitcoin? In other words, an exchange withholds the Bitcoin. And what does the Bitcoin community say about such practices?
16:46:22 <d4ndo[m]> They need to proove you stole the coins.
16:46:40 <d4ndo[m]> Only the
16:47:45 <d4ndo[m]> the trail is not enough proove, is it?
16:55:25 <MalMen> Im curious about what Alex_LocalMonero made one localmonero by providing only addresses started with 4
16:55:49 <MalMen> looks my address from localmoner is valid, with the checksum, but the field 15 give me another address
17:36:28 <Alex_LocalMonero> @MalMen, you mean to ask why we provide integrated instead of subaddresses?
19:23:40 <d4ndo[m]> Another chart - just for fun. https://postimg.cc/BP2RFP1C
19:47:39 <ndorf> hm, one of my nodes spams 'Setting timer on a shut down object' 10-20 times per minute. anyone know what's up with that?
19:51:50 <MalMen> wo, Alex_LocalMonero I didnt knew that was integrated addresses xD when subaddresses ? :P
21:32:09 <Inge-> d4ndo[m]: people have been wsrned by exchanges or had accounts closed, for their withdrawn crypto to lster have been sent to gambling or other "high risk" recipients
21:53:00 <d4ndo[m]> ok
22:07:36 <d4ndo[m]> But you still have access to your funds acording to coinbase website.
22:08:08 <d4ndo[m]> shorturl.at/zCDG7
22:09:51 <d4ndo[m]> In extremely rare circumstances, and only where required by law, Coinbase may block or "freeze" customer funds on our platform.  ( to comply with an order from a court).
22:10:58 <d4ndo[m]> It is not as bad as it might seem. At least for now.
22:17:25 <Alex_LocalMonero> @MalMen, no current ETA.