01:30:10 <cornfeedhobo> just me, or was the cipher trace interview not helpful at all?
01:37:57 <niocbrrrrrr> New and Improved !!
01:40:17 <bonedaddy> cornfeedhobo: i turned it off halfway through it was very clear that Dave has never had to "sell" his product to someone that is knowledgeable in the area
01:41:08 <bonedaddy> not knowing what kind of addresses are traceable? absolutely amateur
01:41:33 <yanmaani> Anyone care give a summary?
01:41:47 <bonedaddy> while working at a startup I got very good at quickly telling which CEOs and CTOs were smart and knew what they were talking about vs ones that just blow hot smoke up peoples butts all the times
01:41:58 <bonedaddy> and dave reminded me very strongly of the latter
01:42:37 <cornfeedhobo> his patents are interesting. they come off extremely generalized - the kind of stuff no one patents unless they feel like firing off court battles in the future
01:42:52 <bonedaddy> craight wright anyone? :laugh:
01:42:57 <bonedaddy> s/craight/craig/g
01:43:09 <cornfeedhobo> I've heard of people like this that have bs patents the threaten small outfits with
01:44:01 <cornfeedhobo> a hash representing a mobile devices unique attributes? that's been going on forever, and is just an evolution of what's been happening on desktops since the 90s
01:44:02 <yanmaani> I thought the point was to defend from them. X threatens to sue you for vague patent nonsense, you point out you also have vague patent nonsense, and they back off.
01:44:13 <cornfeedhobo> nope
01:44:24 <cornfeedhobo> there are some patents people use like SLAP suits
01:44:32 <yanmaani> on the topic of craig wright, they're going to hardfork BSV
01:44:36 <cornfeedhobo> slapp*
01:44:52 <yanmaani> to give Wright the Satoshi coins
01:44:57 <yanmaani> and also to impose an 8% fee on miners
01:45:02 <cornfeedhobo> lol
01:46:44 <jwinterm> I thought the 8% fee was bcash
01:47:33 <yanmaani> bch proposed a 12% fee I think
01:47:44 <ndorf> ha. not to be outdone!
01:47:51 <gingeropolous> tfw you accidentally tap two 0's out and remember the feeling of typing out the year during the aughts
01:48:13 <yanmaani> but that at least had a thin veneer of legitimacy. It was going to go into some sort of big multisig to fund development or something
01:48:20 <yanmaani> this is just, like, a direct line to craig
01:49:35 <cornfeedhobo> well, it'll be interesting to see if anyone figures anything out
01:50:07 <cornfeedhobo> hard not to see a decent bounty being placed on their ip eventually
01:53:00 <selsta> I will never have 25 patents like Dave does :(
01:53:53 <yanmaani> selsta, moneromooo: Then why include it in the Windows build?
01:54:02 <yanmaani> I'd imagine most serious miners use xmrig or something
01:54:06 <yanmaani> not solo mining in the GUI wallet
01:54:11 <cornfeedhobo> when they're as useless as these, and so obviously crafted for the purpose of extortion, I think you can rest easy for not being a shitty person
01:56:24 <selsta> 03:53 <yanmaani> selsta, moneromooo: Then why include it in the Windows build? <-- afaik randomx code is also required for block verification
01:56:45 <selsta> we don’t know what AV scans for
01:57:30 <yanmaani> oh, of course
01:57:59 <yanmaani> I mean, you could try to make a separate build with it hidden behind #ifdef and upload to virustotal
01:58:08 <yanmaani> but then you'd have to cross-compile for windows and shit
01:58:08 <Quotes> fuck windows, use linux!
01:58:21 <niocbrrrrrr> it seem that windows does respond to the mining code and mining withe the daemon is for non serious miners
01:59:00 <selsta> third party wallet providers can avoid shipping monerod, similar to mobile wallets
01:59:06 <niocbrrrrrr> someone who solo mines with it found 2 blocks in the last year
02:00:02 <yanmaani> niocbrrrrrr: With Windows?
02:00:40 <niocbrrrrrr> nit sure but for mining I don't think it matters
02:00:47 <niocbrrrrrr> not
02:01:20 <yanmaani> Isn't there a compile time opt to disable mining already?
02:01:22 <niocbrrrrrr> he posted both times in redddddddit
02:03:30 <selsta> Not aware of any compile time options for it.
02:06:00 <yanmaani> of course, you need it for the tests too
02:08:03 <selsta> we are looking into code signing certs for Windows
02:08:18 <selsta> for the GUI at least
02:09:53 <yanmaani> that might work, yes
02:10:08 <yanmaani> https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/371cb4de2c9ccb5ed99b2622068b6aeea5bdfc7b9805340ea7eb92e7c17f2478/detection
02:10:16 <yanmaani> pretty hot binary
02:11:16 <yanmaani> (What prevents viruses from just bundling your signed monero binaries?)
02:17:20 <selsta> they don’t bundle monero bins at all, they all use xmrig or xmr-stak
02:17:35 <selsta> or modified versions of them
02:18:01 <selsta> but what stops them? no idea
02:18:50 <yanmaani> I don't understand the codebase
02:18:54 <yanmaani> what's with the coding style?
02:19:21 <Quotes> But it's easy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w
02:20:10 <selsta> what is with it?
02:20:39 <selsta> not consistent?
02:20:53 <yanmaani> well there's bits like
02:20:56 <yanmaani> >const Blockchain& get_blockchain_storage()const{return m_blockchain_storage;}
02:26:31 <selsta> yanmaani: that’s old bytecoin code
02:27:41 <yanmaani> oh, I see
02:27:46 <yanmaani> Is it still used?
02:28:29 <selsta> I guess so
02:29:31 <selsta> (the code style from this line is from old bytecoin code) to be more specific
02:31:18 <yanmaani> oh, so bytecoin had a different style guide
02:32:02 <selsta> don’t think they had a style guide
02:33:00 <selsta> not sure if monero has one apart from keep it inline with other code from the same file / region
14:15:56 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: Will Monero ever have faster block times?
14:16:09 <sethsimmons> Doubtful, and not a clear reason to want faster block times
14:16:22 <sethsimmons> Obviously they could change, but not without strong evidence as to what it would improve.
14:16:29 <asymptotically> it used to be one minute instead of two
14:16:37 <sethsimmons> Yeah
14:16:41 <sethsimmons> Was changed early on
14:19:39 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: Interesting
14:20:36 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: The main problem with Monero becoming cash is that change takes 2 minute to be spendable
14:20:46 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: Clearly not efficient for adoption
14:21:01 <ndorf> uh
14:21:11 <ndorf> it takes 20 minutes to be spendable. 10 blocks.
14:22:32 <sethsimmons> An easy fix is wallets breaking down your inputs into standard denominations
14:22:44 <sethsimmons> Just like you get back what change you want from the register
14:22:56 <sethsimmons> For instance -- you spend 1.5XMR and get back 8.5XMR in change
14:23:25 <sethsimmons> Wallet takes that 8.5XMR input and breaks it down into 5/1X4/0.5/0.1X5 XMR inputs
14:23:45 <sethsimmons> Once you do that a few times you would have lots of inputs in each denomination to make spending rapidly easier
14:23:52 <sethsimmons> Right now nothing like that is done automatically AFAIK
14:24:04 <asymptotically> and if the block time got shorter, we should wait more blocks (especially for things like exchange deposits) since the point is work and not blocks
14:25:27 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: Then mass adoption will not happen
14:25:53 <asymptotically> lol
14:25:55 <sethsimmons> A) L1 is likely never going to 100% support the entire worlds transaction flows
14:26:07 <sethsimmons> B) Did you read what I said about breaking up denominations of inputs?
14:26:18 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: Yeah but that makes it harder
14:26:27 <sethsimmons> No
14:26:27 <sethsimmons> It doesnt
14:26:31 <sethsimmons> Wallets do it in the background
14:26:35 <sethsimmons> User never cares or knows
14:26:57 <sethsimmons> Just set the denominations you want at wallet creation (and be able to change them in settings)
14:27:05 <ndorf> this is basically only a problem when you first start using XMR. once you've received more than one or two inputs, it practically speaking goes away.
14:27:10 <sethsimmons> Then just spend to your hearts content and the wallet is constantly breaking up change outputs
14:27:25 <sethsimmons> <ndorf "this is basically only a problem"> Yeah I haven't hit this issue in a *very* long time, but I used XMR quite frequently
14:27:31 <dsc_> What is mass adoption? It gets thrown around like some magical marketing bla
14:27:46 <ndorf> so, i don't see how it's a barrier to adoption.
14:27:53 <ndorf> it's something you have to deal with like the first couple of days of using XMR.
14:27:57 <ndorf> *shrug*
14:28:18 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: lol
14:28:19 <dsc_> @Yonatan: consider contributing to the project if you like to see change
14:28:27 <dsc_> Change starts with YOU
14:28:35 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: I can contribute sperm
14:28:41 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: That's the only thing I'm good at producing
14:28:59 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: Otherwise I have no skills i can contribute
14:29:04 <ndorf> whose idea was this discord bridge, anyway?
14:29:32 * dsc_ can't decide if Discord is worse than Telegram.
14:29:33 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: idk
14:29:41 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: Discord bad
14:30:06 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: I only use it when I'm on my phone and can't connect on IRC
14:30:14 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: Makes it much easier to connect to IRC on mobile
14:30:23 <derpy_bridge_> <[discord] Yonatan#6948>: All mobile IRC clients are absolutely garbage
14:30:27 <sethsimmons> Just use Matrix/Element
14:30:48 <sethsimmons> its a better bridge and more private
14:30:56 <sethsimmons> Works great on mobile
14:36:10 <dixie__flatline[> +1 for matrix/element
15:05:51 <anicow> discord definitely usese way more resources than telegram.
15:06:12 <anicow> yaaic is a decent mobile irc client
15:31:54 <artefact> revolution irc is also really good
15:32:09 <artefact> with a good bnc you're gold
16:54:47 <Polemos__> Hello everyone.
16:56:14 <Polemos__> I am looking for a way to transfer my monero blobkchain history to another machine. Basically I would like to avoid having to download the whole blockain history again. Is there any guide around for such task?
16:56:22 <Polemos__> Thanks a lot in advance
16:56:38 <moneromooo> rsync ? scp ?
16:56:51 <moneromooo> Or nc.
16:57:45 <Polemos__> Not sure if that's for me @moneromooo
16:57:48 <lza_menace> tar + rsync + untar?
16:57:48 <moneromooo> It is.
16:58:13 <moneromooo> It's data.mdb you want btw.
16:58:46 <lza_menace> only that one file? then forget the tar...dont listen to me...i don't work here :DDD
17:00:05 <Polemos__> So just copying .bitmonero/lmdb/data.mdb on a fresh install would do?
17:00:16 <selsta> yes
17:01:06 <Polemos__> That's great thanks a lot :)
17:06:04 <gingeropolous> c'mon cluster!!!!!
17:06:28 <gingeropolous> dang ol mainframe
17:10:30 <gingeropolous> jfc ive been battling format errors for the past 12 hrs
17:10:44 <selsta> gingeropolous are you updating your testnet nodes :D
17:10:57 <selsta> you have 10 blocks left before hf
17:11:02 <gingeropolous> oh jesus
17:11:10 <gingeropolous> well, everything else aint working
17:11:17 <gingeropolous> might as well try to see if monero wants to work today
17:11:37 <selsta> you have to compile master + 6794
17:12:09 <gingeropolous> oh whats that command
17:12:19 <gingeropolous> git blargh blorf 6794
17:12:24 <selsta> git pull origin pull/6794/head
17:13:55 <gingeropolous> and how to only build daemon
17:13:59 <gingeropolous> aint nobody got time for wallets
17:14:08 <gingeropolous> i know theres a trhing
17:14:20 <Polemos__> I am trying to get BinaryFate's GPG Key
17:14:24 <Polemos__> no luck
17:14:35 <selsta> gingeropolous: make -C build/master/release/ daemon
17:14:39 <Polemos__> any known issues about that?
17:14:41 <selsta> or wherever your build dir is
17:14:48 <selsta> Polemos__: what is the problem?
17:15:10 <Polemos__> selsta page seems to be down
17:15:42 <selsta> which website?
17:16:09 <Polemos__> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/monero-project/monero/master/utils/gpg_keys/binaryfate.asc
17:16:31 <selsta> seems up here.
17:17:49 <Polemos__> Not for me. Trying from 2 diff computers
17:18:03 <Polemos__> Any other way to get that key?
17:18:09 <selsta> here I reuploaded it, but make sure to compare the fingerprint with the one from the tutorial https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/rSCG1IK9/
17:19:29 <Polemos__> thanks a lot selsta will do ;)
17:21:25 <selsta> usually taking keys from random sources is bad :) but it’s okay if you verify the fingerprint with a trusted source
17:29:59 <gingeropolous> yay, that worked.
17:30:06 <gingeropolous> lets see if the other things wanna work now
17:31:25 <Polemos__> selsta good signature thanks a lot :)
17:34:01 <Polemos__> afaik the .bitmonero dir where lmbd forder and data.mbd lie will generate once wallet is open for the first time right?
17:34:21 <moneromooo> No. When monerod is run.
17:36:03 <Polemos__> so it is ok if I ./monerod on terminal then overwrite the file with the other data.mbd ?
17:36:26 <moneromooo> Yes.
17:36:32 <moneromooo> (after you stop monerod of course)
17:38:03 <Polemos__> oki doki then when with new data.mdb I guess ./monero-wallet-gui and import seed ?
17:50:42 <moneromooo> Sure.
18:15:45 <kayabaNerve> Monero now has an atomic swap implementation :D
18:16:25 <raecarruth> orly
18:16:31 <hiddener> :]
18:16:51 <kayabaNerve> raecarruth: Considering I just finished it, yes :P
18:17:09 <raecarruth> what did you swap?
18:17:10 <kayabaNerve> I also made a post on r/Monero about it
18:17:13 <kayabaNerve> BTC-XMR?
18:17:14 <kayabaNerve> https://github.com/MerosCrypto/asmr
18:18:59 <kayabaNerve> It's based off the recent research funded by the CCS
18:24:32 <selsta> binaryFate: please update xmr.to testnet node infra to latest master, we forked the testnet to CLSAG
18:29:24 <selsta> kayabaNerve: nice work
18:29:35 * selsta still has no idea how monero atomic swaps work
18:29:55 <kayabaNerve> Thanks!
18:29:56 <yanmaani> is this the end for xmr.to now?
18:30:29 <selsta> yanmaani: most likely not
18:30:35 <sethsimmons> They're very different services, so I would doubt it.
18:30:56 <yanmaani> You could easily see xmr.to and friends getting commoditized
18:31:24 <sethsimmons> XMR.to is a centralized tool that offers very fast and easy XMR->BTC payments
18:31:45 <sethsimmons> Atomic swaps take a while, require liquidity on the other end of the trade, and are not really great for payments directly
18:32:00 <sethsimmons> I don't see much overlap there, XMR.to isn't even really an exchange (though it can be used as one)
18:32:31 <yanmaani> Yes, the idea is that you ahve a centralized service providing the liquidity
18:33:41 <kayabaNerve> Or a large group of decentralized people you coordinate with over a second layer
18:40:11 <yanmaani> kayabaNerve: You need for one side to be semi-trusted
18:40:23 <yanmaani> or they can just claim to be dealing and then never show up
18:40:30 <kayabaNerve> yanmaani: Not sure what you mean
18:40:41 <kayabaNerve> If they never show up, they never show up. You won't lock any funds.
18:40:48 <kayabaNerve> If you do lock and they disappear, you reclaim the funds.
18:40:57 <yanmaani> But that takes time, right?
18:41:01 <kayabaNerve> You never lose anything other than the TX fees if you have a valid tool.
18:41:03 <yanmaani> Say I want to fuck with your l2 protocol
18:41:06 <kayabaNerve> Yeah. BTC block latency.
18:41:08 <yanmaani> I create 1 million offers to buy/sell
18:41:10 <kayabaNerve> + timelocks
18:41:20 <yanmaani> people accept them, put in XBT/XMR
18:41:25 <kayabaNerve> DEXs have ways to work with this is my comment.
18:41:37 <yanmaani> I put on a pot of coffee, completely ignore them, and wait for the money to be refunded
18:41:42 <yanmaani> rinse and repeat until people get fed up
18:41:49 <yanmaani> DEXes are mostly Ethereum frauds?
18:41:59 <kayabaNerve> It's a trustless system for security, but a reputation system so you can trust it to be worth bothering...
18:42:09 <kayabaNerve> I was referring to things like Bisq/BlockDX
18:42:21 <kayabaNerve> I actually haven't looked into the latter too much, but tech seems solid IMO
18:42:47 <kayabaNerve> I'm not referring to Uniswap/those ERC20 DEXs
18:42:54 <raecarruth> blockdx?
18:43:01 <kayabaNerve> Bisq isn't atomic swap based though, to be clear
18:43:02 <raecarruth> never heard of that
18:43:35 <kayabaNerve> DEX based on atomic swaps. There's also Decred's DEX, AtomicDEX, and I think LUX (the former McAfee coin; EVM on BTC) is working on one.
18:43:46 <yanmaani> How does Bisq work again?
18:43:51 <kayabaNerve> Multisigs
18:44:03 <yanmaani> Yeah but does it have a rep system?
18:44:03 <raecarruth> kayabaNerve: do you use blockdx often?
18:44:06 <yanmaani> What prevents Sybils?
18:44:06 <raecarruth> does it work well?
18:44:21 <kayabaNerve> raecarruth: No. You have to have money to use an exchange :P
18:44:28 <raecarruth> kek
18:45:10 <kayabaNerve> I don't support the latter three (definitely not LUX), but I like BlockDX from what I've seen. That said, haven't researched it too much. Just the basics (but beyond their website's first paragraph, of course)
18:45:20 <kayabaNerve> yanmaani: No idea, but I've heard great review
18:45:45 <yanmaani> I tried using Bisq and it was horrible, and the fraud protection seems really subpar
18:46:01 <raecarruth> yeah, bisq could be better
18:46:06 <raecarruth> i prefer to use openbazaar
18:46:09 <kayabaNerve> Alrighty. I'll keep that in mind :)
18:46:25 <kayabaNerve> So this has 0 fraud protection. Just needs a reputation system/external loss system.
18:46:30 <kayabaNerve> *0 fraud risk
18:46:32 <kayabaNerve> Sorry.
18:46:33 <yanmaani> This doesn't need fraud protection
18:46:35 <yanmaani> right
18:46:48 <kayabaNerve> I mean, yes, fraud you won't participate, but atomic swaps are guaranteed to give you one set of the funds
18:46:51 <yanmaani> I mean, one way might be to just have people lock up some trivial sum of Monero
18:47:00 <kayabaNerve> External loss, yep.
18:47:11 <kayabaNerve> Or charge a trading fee in some native token?
18:47:15 <yanmaani> No, no fees
18:47:17 <yanmaani> no loss
18:47:18 <kayabaNerve> BlockDX has a token and they charge per order
18:47:19 <yanmaani> just lock up some money
18:47:22 <yanmaani> as a Sybil mechanism
18:47:27 <kayabaNerve> Oh, got it.
18:47:51 <yanmaani> If you want to create an order for $5, you need to have say $1 locked up. If you just ignore it, then that's fine, but you can't take a million orders for $0
18:48:09 <yanmaani> or just do web of trust, I guess
18:48:14 <kayabaNerve> *Only one side pays fees though. The makers. I'm not saying that's competent to stop this attack, just bringing it up.
18:48:21 <kayabaNerve> Both sounds like good ideas :)
18:49:18 <kayabaNerve> Anyways. I love DEX theory and want to see a great DEX, but I'm personally not too interested in making one
20:34:35 <yanmaani> how come 14 word mnemonic seeds aren't any less secure?
20:35:41 <hyc> they only have 1 key instead of 2
20:35:54 <hyc> but the key is still the same strength as in a 25-word seed
20:46:15 <artefact> maybe bigger dictionary, too
20:46:22 <tobtoht> the 25 word seed only encodes the spend key (in 256-bit)
20:46:35 <tobtoht> viewkey is derived deterministically
20:46:50 <tobtoht> 256-bit is overkill because the curve only provides 128-bit security
20:47:29 <moneromooo> Does this imply you could have 128 bit keys for the same level of security ?
20:48:24 <artefact> depends on the KDF. but mathematics says yes
20:49:07 <moneromooo> Is this more or less equivalent to "Monero keys are 256 bits, but only 128 bits of actual entropy" ?
20:49:33 <artefact> no
20:49:52 <artefact> you have 128 bits of security. like how RSA keys are in the thousands of bytes, but don't have nearly that level of actual security
20:51:08 <moneromooo> I guess I'm trying to get to: if keys from 256 bits of entropy get you 128 bits of security, why do keys from 128 bits of security not get you 64 bits of security" :)
20:51:30 <moneromooo> s/8 bits of securit/8 bits of entrop/
20:51:32 <artefact> because it's how the elliptic curve works
20:51:44 <artefact> same reason giving MD5 an input twice as long, doesn't make it twice as hard to crack
20:52:25 <moneromooo> Within reason, since it'll obviously break down if you continue.
20:52:35 <moneromooo> So, where does it break down.
20:52:45 <artefact> so you can derive a 256 bit key from a 128 bitstring, and use that for the curve, with no loss of security, if the KDF isn't stupid
20:52:53 <moneromooo> I mean otherwise you can continue splitting and end up wiuth keys with 2 bits of entropy.
20:53:00 <moneromooo> So there has to be somehting that changes.
20:53:52 <moneromooo> OK, so the EC ops basically only use 128 bits of entropy to work at their fullest. Is that correct ?
20:54:26 <moneromooo> Apologies for my crypto cluelessness :)
20:55:19 <artefact> sure
20:55:49 <moneromooo> OK, then I see why the MD5 comparison applies. Thanks.
20:56:01 <artefact> i thought the comparison with rsa keys was good
20:57:41 <moneromooo> I find it funny one of the reason they give is "underfunding", when they not only got *shitloads* of money from their 4 years 20%, but came back for another bite, breaking their promise.
20:58:48 <moneromooo> The other reason also seems inverted, since how can keeping something closed soure help the public since htey can't adapt it to their needs.
20:58:54 <moneromooo> I might be missing something dumb...
20:59:03 <niocbrrrrrr> moneromooo: I think that was for another room :)
20:59:22 <moneromooo> Oh. Oh. Sorry.
21:06:35 <yanmaani> moneromooo: zcash?
21:07:13 <selsta> yes, they now release research under an open source license that isn’t really open source for the first couple years
21:07:44 <yanmaani> what
21:07:45 <selsta> https://twitter.com/ElectricCoinCo/status/1301613148579930113
21:09:49 <yanmaani> >Special thanks to Vitalik Buterin for reviewing and providing feedback to this post.
21:09:53 <yanmaani> that's how you know it's good
21:10:41 <dsc_> Was hoping Bungie's Halo 2 under open-source :(
21:12:03 <yanmaani> you know what'd be really funny?
21:12:20 <yanmaani> If someone hardforked zcash or ethereum or something, and just took out the founder's reward/premine
21:12:26 <artefact> so it's the GPL but with a 12-month delay on actually having to give up the source
21:12:27 <yanmaani> kept everything the same, and merged everything from upstream
21:12:30 <artefact> no really "open" source, is it
21:12:43 <yanmaani> artefact: I don't even thing it's FSF-certified open source after that
21:12:47 <yanmaani> but that's just nitpicking :)
21:12:58 <artefact> afaik fsf hates "open source"
21:13:05 <yanmaani> that too
21:13:08 <artefact> but yes, it's certainely not libre either
21:13:20 <yanmaani> Oh no, this is even worse
21:13:24 <yanmaani> you can't even use it for any purpose
21:13:33 <yanmaani> if you take the source, you *have to* submit your improvements to upstream
21:13:35 <yanmaani> within 12 months
21:13:54 <yanmaani> So it's the other way around
21:14:19 <artefact> does it? "upstream" seems tricky to define in legalese
21:14:47 <yanmaani> Their software is kind of open, but if you modify it, you have to send them those improvements within 12 months. They are under no obligation to publish them anywhere.
21:14:52 <yanmaani> That's what the blog post says
21:15:04 <yanmaani> The license just says
21:15:57 <yanmaani> "Licensor grants you a ... license ... to distribute ... copies of the ... Work ..., with the proviso that copies of ... Work ... that You distribute ... shall be licensed under this Transitive Grace Period Public Licence no later than 12 months after You distributed ... said copies
21:15:59 <yanmaani> "
21:16:16 <artefact> yes. it dosen't say you actually have to upstream anything
21:16:23 <artefact> just give source on request. like the GPL
21:16:36 <artefact> (ianal)
21:17:10 <yanmaani> I don't think a lawyer wrote this, it's very shoddily written. The blog post very directly conflicts with the license
21:17:25 <moneromooo> That might explain why it didn't make sense to me. I only read the post :D
21:17:28 <yanmaani> if I take the software and use it for internal use, then what?
21:17:33 <artefact> then nothing. just like the GPL
21:17:47 <yanmaani> Right. But the blog post implies it becomes FOSS
21:17:50 <artefact> you can write your fancy proprietary GCC patch and use it just fine- nobody will kick your door open
21:17:58 <artefact> if you publish your gcc binaries though... different story
21:18:11 <yanmaani> >an open-source  model that gives everyone equal access to the code and equal rights to improve Halo commercially as long as they subsequently open-source their improvements after 12 months
21:18:12 <moneromooo> "provided that they abide by the agreement to open-source the derived work under the same terms once the grace period expires. " is clear. you have to releae your private mods.
21:18:42 <yanmaani> moneromooo: that's not in the license
21:18:46 <moneromooo> While with GPL, you can keep them private. GPL -> you only have to give the source to whoever gets binaries.
21:18:55 <moneromooo> Possibly. Then the blog seems to be a lie ?
21:19:04 <artefact> yes. or i'm reading the wrong licence text
21:19:15 <artefact> or i suck at legalese (which there is no doubt about that)
21:19:32 <yanmaani> moneromooo: The blog isn't a lie they're just not very good at writing licenses
21:19:50 * moneromooo would not be either
21:19:52 <yanmaani> https://github.com/zcash/halo2/blob/main/LICENSE-TGPPL this is the license
21:20:18 <artefact> their definition of "source code" is also a bit shoddy. "machine-readable"?!
21:20:33 <yanmaani> I'd rather have a license in normal human language tbh
21:21:10 <asy> what is halo2? the readme is a little bare and the documentation seems to link to a blank page :P
21:21:30 <yanmaani> It's also not new!
21:21:39 <yanmaani> >This License is Copyright © 2007 Zooko Wilcox-O'Hearn.
21:21:49 <yanmaani> what the hell
21:24:27 <artefact> asy: https://electriccoin.co/blog/ecc-releases-code-for-halo-2/ seems to go into more detail
21:25:07 <selsta> see sarang’s analysis on halo 2 https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ZTMlG2pB/
21:26:21 <artefact> it does read like buzzword soup
21:26:34 <artefact> but i don't know much about their stuff in great detail