02:37:44 <Infinity8_> Hello, I need help with my SSH tunnel to monerod
02:37:49 <Infinity8_> Following this guide: https://github.com/jonathancross/jc-docs/blob/master/ssh_tunnel_to_full_node.md#hardening
02:38:17 <Infinity8_> I'm getting monerotunnel⊙111: Permission denied (publickey)
02:38:37 <Infinity8_> Confirmed that I imported the correct RSA key to ~/.ssh/authorized_keys on the node server
02:38:46 <Infinity8_> and did "sudo service restart ssh"
02:39:21 <ndorf> check the logs, /var/log/auth.log or so
02:39:28 <ndorf> probably the permissions on ~/.ssh are wrong. logs will tell you, if so
02:45:12 <Infinity8_> ndorf: on the server or the client?
02:45:57 <Infinity8_> Authentication refused: Bad ownership
02:46:08 <Infinity8_> of authorized keys file
02:46:14 <ndorf> yep
02:46:18 <Infinity8_> so I just set allow all users to read the file
02:46:22 <Infinity8_> right?
02:46:50 <ndorf> the owner must be the user or root
02:46:56 <ndorf> probably your regular user owns it now? that's not allowed
02:47:31 <ndorf> IOW: if you followed the guide exactly, the file and dir must be owned by sshtunnel or root.
02:47:46 <ndorf> if root, then you also have to ensure that sshtunnel can *read* it, otherwise you'll get a different error.
02:48:11 <ndorf> right now, the reason sshd is complaining is that some third user can write to the file.
02:57:10 <Infinity8_> ndorf, I used sudo su to write the key to authorized_keys and i'm still getting auth error...
02:57:43 <Infinity8_> nevermind, new error message
02:57:47 <Infinity8_> deprecated RSAghost
02:57:54 <ndorf> ls -ld ~sshtunnel/.ssh ~sshtunnel/authorized_keys
02:58:05 <ndorf> oh.
02:59:02 <ndorf> what exactly does it say?
03:01:21 <Infinity8____> ndorf
03:01:44 <Infinity8____> ndorf: Aug 30 19:58:38 node-P5QL-PRO polkitd(authority=local): Operator of unix-session:c2 FAILED to authenticate to gain authorization for action org.gtk.vfs.file-operations for unix-process:1685:13867 [nemo /home/node] (owned by unix-user:node)
03:02:33 <ndorf> oh gosh, i don't know about that one, sorry
03:02:35 <Infinity8____> Aug 30 19:59:26 node-P5QL-PRO sshd[4291]: Connection closed by authenticating user tunnel 192.168.1.26 port 51952 [preauth]
03:02:39 <ndorf> polkit and gvfs are evil. lol
03:02:44 <Infinity8____> fark
03:02:49 <Infinity8____> this is clean install as well
03:02:53 <ndorf> which distro?
03:02:58 <Infinity8____> linux mint 20
03:03:02 <Infinity8____> but i updated all the packages
03:03:04 <Infinity8____> so ubuntu basically...
03:03:14 <ndorf> did you try connecting as a normal user, without all the hardening steps?
03:03:21 <Infinity8____> not yet
03:03:55 <ndorf> that might help narrow it down. you can create a temp one and then delete after
03:04:00 <Infinity8_> Okay,  Ijust did
03:04:04 <Infinity8_> connect to a normal user
03:04:06 <Infinity8_> it worked
03:04:20 <Infinity8_> now I tried to connect as the tunnel user and I get an auth error that the RSA key changed
03:04:25 <Infinity8_> so I'll try to sort that one out first
03:04:53 <Infinity8_> ok permission denied again...
03:04:54 <ndorf> the host key? you're getting "man in the middle" warning?
03:04:57 <Infinity8_> yeah
03:05:14 <ndorf> that's weird, assuming you didn't just regenerate those
03:06:12 <Infinity8_> ndorf: Logged into a non-existent server
03:06:13 <Infinity8_> oops
03:06:18 <Infinity8_> user***
03:06:25 <Infinity8_> so it was from before my fresh install
03:06:34 <ndorf> ah, ok
03:07:17 <Infinity8____> Aug 30 20:05:58 node-P5QL-PRO sshd[4551]: Connection closed by authenticating user tunnel 192.168.1.5 port 42620 [preauth]
03:07:21 <Infinity8____> that's the freshest one
03:07:35 <Infinity8____> still "Permission denied (public key)"
03:07:36 <ndorf> any others from polkitd aside from the one you already posted?
03:07:52 <Infinity8____> ah. i must connect to correct port
03:07:56 <Infinity8____> at 18081 oops lol
03:08:03 <Infinity8____> because I did the hardening
03:08:10 <Infinity8____> can't just do regular ssh
03:08:39 <ndorf> well, i don't think that's it, because authentication needs to succeed first in any case
03:08:48 <Infinity8_> Oh shit, I was executing those command while ssh'd as regular user lol
03:08:53 <Infinity8_> well that explains a lot
03:09:03 <ndorf> which?
03:09:12 <Infinity8_> normal user on the remote node
03:09:21 <Infinity8_> i was trying to ssh into itself
03:10:31 <ndorf> oops. so does it work the right way?
03:11:05 <Infinity8_> let me restart my machine first
03:11:09 <Infinity8_> my client
03:11:27 <ndorf> is it a windows box or something? lol
03:11:37 <Infinity8____> Aug 30 20:10:25 nodlr-P5QL-PRO sshd[4746]: Connection closed by authenticating user nodetunnel 192.168.1.26 port 51990 [preauth]
03:11:42 <Infinity8____> Nah, linux mint as well
03:11:57 <Infinity8____> I don't use Windblows for crypto unless I have a hardware wallet
03:12:10 <Infinity8____> Aug 30 20:10:25 node-P5QL-PRO sshd[4746]: Connection closed by authenticating user tunnel 192.168.1.26 port 51990 [preauth]
03:12:19 <Infinity8____> port should be 18081 not 51990
03:12:29 <Infinity8____> hardening blocks all ports for traffic except 18081
03:12:40 <ndorf> nah, that's the source port for the ssh connection
03:12:46 <ndorf> it's just random
03:13:01 <ndorf> so aside from that message, are there any others?
03:13:10 <ndorf> still getting the stuff from polkitd? any other messages from that service?
03:13:25 <Infinity8____> nope
03:13:37 <Infinity8____> Just Aug 30 20:10:25 node-P5QL-PRO sshd[4746]: Connection closed by authenticating user tunnel 192.168.1.26 port 51990 [preauth]
03:13:40 <Infinity8____> with an ever increasing port number
03:13:44 <Infinity8____> with increasing attempts
03:13:53 <ndorf> yep that's fine
03:14:16 <ndorf> so there is nothing except this connection closed now?
03:14:23 <ndorf> can you try running the client with -v option?
03:14:27 <ndorf> ssh -v ...
03:15:27 <Infinity8____> permission denied with a bunch of logs
03:16:22 <ndorf> you can use paste.debian.net or similar to paste a bunch of logs
03:16:31 <ndorf> just look them over for anything sensitive first
03:19:50 <Infinity8> ndorf: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/8867dcf1/
03:20:23 <Infinity8> It is set to block traffic except for 18081 so default 22 port probably won't work
03:24:14 <Infinity8> I wrote a script that worked before and it doesn't work anymore :/
03:24:19 <Infinity8> because of the public key auth denied
03:36:28 <ndorf> hey, sorry
03:37:05 <ndorf> port 22 is definitely not blocked, since you can see your client connects and tries a few keys before giving up
03:38:44 <ndorf> ls -ld ~sshtunnel/.ssh ~sshtunnel/authorized_keys ~sshtunnel
03:38:53 <ndorf> ^ can you do that so we can rule out all the permissions at once
03:39:23 <ndorf> ls -ld ~nodetunnel/.node ~nodetunnel/authorized_keys ~nodetunnel
04:03:25 <Infinity8> ndorf: Done that and restarted ssh service
04:03:33 <Infinity8> still public auth key
04:04:12 <Infinity8____> Aug 30 21:03:16 nodlr-P5QL-PRO sshd[5900]: Connection closed by authenticating user nodetunnel 192.168.1.26 port 39014 [preauth]
04:04:38 <ndorf> what is the output of the ls command? should be 3 lines
04:07:39 <Infinity8____> on client or server?
04:12:25 <ndorf> on the server. this one 21:39 < ndorf> ls -ld ~nodetunnel/.node ~nodetunnel/authorized_keys ~nodetunnel
04:26:29 <Infinity8____> ls: cannot access '/home/nodetunnel/.node': No such file or directory
04:26:29 <Infinity8____> ls: cannot access '/home/nodetunnel/authorized_keys': No such file or directory
04:26:29 <Infinity8____> drwxr-xr-x 5 nodetunnel nodetunnel 4096 Aug 30 19:33 /home/nodetunnel
04:26:31 <Infinity8____> ndorf:
04:26:43 <Infinity8____> i'm using .ssh and .ssh/authorized_keys
04:26:47 <Infinity8____> so I did replace the correct lines
04:26:52 <ndorf> sorry, i don't know how i mangled the command
04:27:17 <ndorf> ls -ld ~nodetunnel/.ssh ~nodetunnel/.ssh/authorized_keys ~nodetunnel
04:34:44 <Infinity8____> ndorf: drwxr-xr-x 5 nodetunnel nodetunnel 4096 Aug 30 19:33 /home/nodetunnel
04:34:44 <Infinity8____> drwx------ 2 root       root       4096 Aug 30 21:08 /home/nodetunnel/.ssh
04:34:45 <Infinity8____> -rw-r--r-- 1 root       root        750 Aug 30 21:08 /home/nodetunnel/.ssh/authorized_keys
04:34:51 <ndorf> yeah
04:35:00 <ndorf> do this:
04:35:15 <ndorf> sudo chgrp nodetunnel ~nodetunnel/.ssh && sudo chmod 750 ~nodetunnel/.ssh
04:36:16 <Infinity8____> done
04:36:26 <ndorf> it should work now.
04:36:43 <Infinity8____> looks successful
04:36:48 <Infinity8____> so what was wrong? dumbed down
04:37:05 <ndorf> the 'nodetunnel' user could not read its own .ssh directory, it was readable only by root
04:37:27 <ndorf> and sshd changes to the target user before reading that file.
04:38:22 <Infinity8> ah. because I created the file as root
04:38:26 <Infinity8> not as nodetunnel
04:38:27 <ndorf> yes
04:38:32 <ndorf> it's better to have the file owned by root, in this case
04:38:36 <ndorf> so that only root can change it
04:38:51 <ndorf> but you need this extra step so that the original user can still *read* it
04:39:19 <ndorf> file *and* dir owned by root, i should say
04:39:31 <Infinity8> freaking linux and it's permissions
04:39:32 <Infinity8> oh wells
04:39:56 <Infinity8> I was reading that I can just set some things but it's just better to adjust the permissions on the dir/file
04:39:57 <ndorf> hehe
04:40:03 <Infinity8> like loosen up some security stuff
04:40:25 <ndorf> dunno why you'd want to loosen up any security stuff. you only need to get the permissions right once :)
04:41:44 <ndorf> btw, you can add two more options to the hardening config if you like https://github.com/jonathancross/jc-docs/pull/16/files
04:42:13 <Infinity8____> it's the easier of the two. at a higher cost
04:42:18 <ndorf> "PermitListen none" and "PermitTTY no"
04:42:27 <Infinity8____> in sshd?
04:42:47 <Infinity8____> yup..
04:42:50 <ndorf> yes, under your Match User nodetunnel section
04:43:22 <ndorf> not that it isn't already hardened enough, but might as well
04:43:48 <Infinity8____> meh. only local users on the network can access it
04:44:01 <Infinity8____> I'm satisfied
04:45:02 <ndorf> yeah, this is already way more than good enough for that
04:45:16 <Infinity8> thanks ndorf
04:45:31 <ndorf> you got it
04:45:33 <Infinity8> Msg me your XMR address
04:45:50 <ndorf> not at all necessary, just glad to help
04:46:00 <Infinity8> cool beans
04:46:05 <Infinity8> I'm trying to support network by running node
04:46:10 <Infinity8> and I got attacked because I left RPC open lol
04:46:15 <Infinity8> they kept mining on my node
04:46:16 <Infinity8> those bastards
04:46:20 <ndorf> oops, haha
04:46:31 <Infinity8> Hope they enjoy those juicy 200h/s
04:46:41 <ndorf> not too bad a way to learn that lesson, honestly
04:46:50 <ndorf> at least they didn't get to your actual stuff
04:46:53 <ndorf> 200h/s lol
04:46:58 <Infinity8> Yeah it's a Q9550
04:47:05 <Infinity8> It doesn't even support hardware AES lol
04:47:13 <ndorf> ouch
04:47:24 <Infinity8> Yeah, I'm going to upgrade it slowly. Finally got my SSD in it today
04:47:33 <ndorf> i bought a rack server from ebay like that, xeon L5520 cpu
04:47:45 <Infinity8> yeah, this is like a spare DDR2 Intel Core 2 Quad machine
04:47:55 <ndorf> fortunately the just barely better l5630 to replace it with are only $5 on ebay themselves :)
04:48:00 <manifest> i got one of those in the closet
04:48:09 <Infinity8> I don't keep any keys on my node server so they wouldn't be able to do anything i think
04:48:22 <Infinity8> Like somehow redirect my transactions? I don't think that's really possible
04:48:42 <ndorf> yeah, not much
04:48:49 <ndorf> block your outgoing tx, sure, but only until you switch nodes
04:49:13 <ndorf> they could make you think you have a confirmed transaction from them that isn't real, probably
04:51:59 <Infinity8> yeah, that would have to be an extremely specific attack lol
04:55:30 <Infinity8____> block my outgoing transactions, I would probably just spend some time to figure out how to get my node to work again
04:55:32 <Infinity8____> and restart monerod
04:55:43 <Infinity8____> I don't use 3rd party node and never used one for monero
04:55:43 <Quotes> diisssscoonneeeeeee ♪ ┗(＾0＾)┓ ♪
06:32:58 <sunwind> hey guys. I'm trying to use xmr.to, it's telling me "invalid monero amount", and that's all, any idea why it would be invalid?
06:39:16 <sunwind> "check amount data type" = ?
06:40:52 <manifest> 4,2 vs 4.2?
06:45:31 <sunwind> hm?
06:46:40 <manifest> , or . as the decimal separator
06:47:15 <manifest> might not even be an issue but only thing i came up with off the bat
06:49:39 <sunwind> yeah it's . - I copied the amount directly from my wallet and just pasted it in
06:52:35 <sunwind> is there maybe too many digits after the separater? there are 12
07:00:49 <ndorf> 12 sired
10:39:55 <MalMen> how many subaddresses can an wallet handle ?
10:41:56 <fluffypony> infinite
10:43:22 <MalMen> infinite -1 :P
10:43:27 <MalMen> what is also infitnite
10:43:28 <azy> i dont think thats true, theres a limit to how many you can access with the cli software at least
10:43:50 <MalMen> but, it would not decrease the performance of the wallet if we have alot fo subaddresses to check ?
10:44:02 <azy> im waiting for an update so i can access index 329502359024234634
10:44:51 <MalMen> I am making an payment processor, Im in doubt if I can just create one new subaddress for each transaction, or if I should reuse them after some time
10:46:55 <selsta> 2^32 accounts with 2^32 addresses each
10:48:08 <selsta> MalMen: should not decrease performance, a lookup table is used
10:48:13 <selsta> might increase required RAM
10:48:16 <asymptotically> you can get quite far without any slowdown, but i only got into the tens of thousands when testing and not 329 quadrillion like azy
10:48:46 <azy> i generated that specific index, not every one up until that index
11:00:10 <fluffypony> azy: to be clear, I meant "practically infinite"
11:00:29 <fluffypony> it's unlikely any application will ever come close to the addressable limit
11:00:46 <fluffypony> highly improbable
11:14:10 <Mochi103> What about one specifically designed to try?
11:15:11 <Mochi103> Only time is stopping it.
11:15:17 <Mochi103> :P
11:16:50 <azy> yeah maybe i want to start at index a trillion and work backwards
11:49:57 <sunwind> https://i.ibb.co/wL0QppX/Untitled.png anyone know why this isn't working?
11:50:27 <sunwind> "invalid monero amount" soon as I click next
11:51:50 <moneromooo> If you're going to ask questions about X and post a screenshot, don't hide the X. Unless you really don't want help.
11:52:12 <sunwind> I clicked 'use non java version' at the top, entered the xmr amount, and now I get a popup saying valid nearest amounts are the amount I entered but minus 3 or 4 of the last digits
11:52:30 <sunwind> removed the last 3, got to the next step
12:11:24 <Mochi101> xmr.to doesn't like dust?
12:28:44 <duso> Looks like monero has been banned in Australia.
12:29:09 <sethsimmons> Link to a source?
12:29:12 <sethsimmons> Or just the vague delisting announcement?
12:29:24 <sethsimmons> I have yet to see any source for a governmental ban/regulation release
12:31:11 <duso> https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/amend/r6195_amend_2ef65c47-7a59-45e1-9427-cf3e7400ef4d/upload_pdf/EK171.pdf;fileType=application/pdf
12:31:53 <sethsimmons> Doesn't mention Monero or cryptocurrency, but scanning now
12:32:04 <duso> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/dec/05/coalitions-deal-with-labor-on-cracking-encrypted-messages-what-it-means-for-you
12:32:18 <sethsimmons> oh this is that?
12:32:20 <sethsimmons> Its 2y old
12:32:54 <duso> Old links. From what I have read it the banks are debanking any exchange that trades monero in Australia
12:33:00 <sethsimmons> This doesn't seem in any way related to Monero or cryptocurrency for that matter
12:33:03 <sethsimmons> From what I see
12:33:16 <sethsimmons> Its about an encryption ban in general, which hasn't happened AFAIK
12:33:40 <sethsimmons> <duso "Old links. From what I have read"> Any link for that? I saw the one delisting announcement but nothing backing it up as of yet
12:38:44 <duso> https://cryptonews.com.au/australian-crypto-exchanges-forced-to-delist-privacy-coins-or-be-debanked
12:41:00 <sethsimmons> Hmm
12:41:13 <sethsimmons> Confusing since they say things like this: "Exchanges that do not comply with the crackdown by either delisting all privacy coins or removing access to Australian traders by August 31 will be debanked." and yet say there isn't any official notive
12:41:17 <sethsimmons> *notice
12:41:24 <sethsimmons> So I'm not sure where they're getting that info
12:41:30 <sethsimmons> But interesting nonetheless
12:41:49 <Thominus> I remember when the Clinton admin tried to ban strong encryption in the 90's - everyone in the crypto industry just located elsewhere - Debian had split the distro into the "NON-US" versions - I wonder if that will happen with Australia
12:42:03 <sethsimmons> If Australia (a country notorious for violating technological access to privacy) is afraid of Monero then we're doing something right.
12:42:22 <sethsimmons> Although Verge being in the same list makes me chuckle, because obviously they have no real idea what they're doing
12:43:27 <duso> I still can't find any actual legislation relevant since 2018
12:43:47 <duso> https://www.austrac.gov.au/new-australian-laws-regulate-cryptocurrency-providers
12:44:42 <duso> So what regulation are they using to threaten debanking exchanges?
12:47:16 <duso> anyway, will have to use DEX's to buy in from now on. It's late, night all
14:23:05 <MalMen> https://cointelegraph.com/news/ciphertrace-develops-monero-tracing-tool-to-aid-us-dhs-investigations?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=94263739&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8LF2_4jzmw0u6eeITFUjfqhd-j7vTy3cFnE4Lxdv-Ij05oQ6r-6HiS7_JFfCcfJiUabqG-XqbB7YfmqXRP7ixIxhqU9g&utm_content=94263739&utm_source=hs_email
14:23:13 <MalMen> what are they doing ? black magic ? lol
14:23:46 <anicow> hm.
14:26:48 <sethsimmons> https://twitter.com/sethisimmons/status/1300421153832554497?s=21
14:26:59 <sethsimmons> MalMen anicow
14:27:26 <sethsimmons> Not enough detail to worry ATM
14:27:50 <MalMen> exactly
14:29:56 <anicow> thanks for the post
14:35:08 <sethsimmons> np!
15:26:04 <alexanarcho[m]> Hey Guys! To all the javascript/react devs out there. hundehausen and I have gone through the pain of setting up monero-javascript with webpack to include react and tailwindcss. This setup process was tedious for us (we are also noobs and were only able to do it with expert help). But I thought i would dump the sekelleton here for everybody that wants to use it as a starting point.
15:26:04 <alexanarcho[m]> why? well, react is awesome, so is monero, so is webassembly. monero-javascript gives you the option of creating CLIENT BASED BROWSER WALLETS. i.e. NON CUSTODIAL. how rad. Go nuts, i would love to see more react projects using monero wasm!!! https://github.com/AlexAnarcho/tipxmr
15:27:26 <alexanarcho[m]> While I am at it: we are starting our OBS Livestream Bot here on github. https://github.com/hundehausen/tipxmr feel free to join in! Javascript and React is the most useful, but anybody familiar with Tailwindcss as a UI framework can contribute as well.
15:54:50 <kayabaNerve> alexanarcho[m]: You linked the tip bot twice
15:56:06 <alexanarcho[m]> @kayabaNerve no, one is my personal github, this is just the fork of the skelleton, i will not modify it. the other repo we will modify and extend to create the obs tipbot
15:56:29 <kayabaNerve> Oh. Thanks for the clarification
15:56:39 <alexanarcho[m]> np ;)
17:20:05 <Mochi101> moneromooo, we need to raise the Monero tx fees for the miners. mETH miners are getting rich right now.
17:20:47 <Mochi101> Monero miners want to be rich too.
17:21:28 <moneromooo> Make a tx with a monero fee.
17:29:16 <Mochi101> :D
17:55:32 <yanmaani> > Ryan Taylor, the CEO of Dash — another privacy-oriented cryptocurrency — told Cointelegraph that there is a big difference between the DHS tracking Monero transactions versus personal transactions
17:55:34 <yanmaani> lol scam
17:56:01 <sethsimmons> Aren't all transactions necessarily someones personal transactions?
17:56:03 <dsc_> Damn, I want to be CEO too!
17:56:16 <sethsimmons> Or do they cease to be personal when you're a dirty "criminal"
17:57:11 <yanmaani> well, you see, money laundering is a crime
17:57:50 <sethsimmons> "You bunch of math criminals!"
17:58:02 <sethsimmons> "Quit hiding behind your math and cryptography and give over all your data to us"
18:01:22 <yanmaani> Would it make any sense to add 'shielded pools' to monero, like in zcash? Or would it just not work with the present system?
18:01:54 <artefact> what's the point?
18:02:10 <yanmaani> You can sort of draw up a (very bad) txn graph as things are now
18:02:16 <yanmaani> you couldn't do that with shielded pools, right?
18:02:22 <sethsimmons> There is no "unshielded pool" in Monero, so necessarily it's all "shielded"
18:02:39 <sethsimmons> It's just a different method of "shielding"
18:03:02 <sethsimmons> As shown in the recent Zcash "tracing", you can do the same sort of thing if you have enough external data
18:03:04 <artefact> so you want more sender anonymity?
18:03:51 <sethsimmons> I'm not sure what you mean -- I want anonymity for both sender and receiver
18:04:20 <sethsimmons> Which is what we currently have, with some obvious nuance/caveats/risks as have been broken down at length in Breaking Monero and elsewhere
18:04:21 <yanmaani> sethsimmons: Right, but zcash has a different kind - the anon set for the shielded pool (in theory) is all the users
18:04:28 <yanmaani> whereas in monero, it's just your current ring size
18:04:38 <sethsimmons> In theory, and thats great if people both use it properly, and use it enough
18:04:51 <sethsimmons> But no one does either so it still leaks plenty of metadata to trace through
18:05:02 <sethsimmons> s/no one/few
18:05:57 <sethsimmons> The anon-set in Monero is not 11 as commonly shared/stated
18:06:21 <sethsimmons> It is also some sub-set of all users back along the chain of key images used in each ring signature
18:06:34 <sethsimmons> There isn't a set number because it depends on a lot of factors
18:07:01 <sethsimmons> But you gain anonymity set from each un-known decoy and all of the unknown decoys in the transaction graph up to that point for the decoy
18:14:27 <yanmaani> If someone hacks and exchange and walks away with XMR 1 million, then what? They will know what txid it is, of course, and then those in the same ring will also be tainted
18:15:58 <sethsimmons> I'm not sure what you mean
18:16:12 <sethsimmons> If they get access to the hot wallet of an exchange and harvest the TX info?
18:16:22 <sethsimmons> Nothing would be tainted, as Monero is not interactive
18:16:34 <sethsimmons> You can have the decoy from a "bad" transaction without any interaction/choice
18:16:46 <yanmaani> sethsimmons: If you steal a lot of money
18:16:51 <yanmaani> and they know it was sent in transaction X
18:16:57 <sethsimmons> You're not actively choosing to participate with a "bad" user in any way
18:17:16 <yanmaani> No, but they'll still be able to identify the stolen funds with accuracy ~ 1/11, no?
18:19:02 <sethsimmons> They can't tell if a key image/output is truly spent or not
18:19:36 <sethsimmons> If you transfer out money from an exchange wallet they know that those inputs are spent (if they recover the wallet after), but can't tell past that when funds are moved again, as they could just be decoys
18:19:45 <alexanarcho[m]> realize that "anonymity set" is always relative to a starting point. if i send xmr from binance to my wallet, binance knows the true spending output, since it is their wallet. if i then send the xmr to  somebody else, my anonymity set is 11 (as ring size is 11). the following tx has anonymity set of 121 (11x11) and so on. 11² essentially.
18:19:45 <alexanarcho[m]> pls correct me if i m wrong, but it is impossible to tell the general anonymity set for a xmr tx
18:20:01 <sethsimmons> Thats the whole design of the system -- break any clear statistical/heuristic ties that let you say "this is 100% the true spend"
18:20:24 * sethsimmons sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/OPLgJFKjvHEhhCXTwlaBbBbS/message.txt >
18:23:57 <alexanarcho[m]> gotta love monero
18:24:10 <alexanarcho[m]> really pumped for trypich or whatever its called
18:25:54 <artefact> i don't think that's true
18:26:10 <artefact> take any given transaction. you can walk "up" the chain of inputs as many times as you want
18:26:32 <artefact> binance doesn't know if your output is really spent or not in a transaction you make
18:26:50 <alexanarcho[m]> true
18:27:15 <alexanarcho[m]> good point, so the chain can have my output as a decoy, but in reality it is still unspent
18:28:03 <artefact> if you steal 1 million xmr, nobody will know just by looking at the chain. well maybe if you have tons and tons of inputs