02:57:15 https://hackaday.io/project/164092-npr-new-packet-radio 03:34:54 nice 03:35:42 500kbps is ... meh. but I suppose useful in emergencies 03:37:48 that antenna mast ... up here everyone's TV aerial is in their attic, because it's too windy to have something like that outside 03:50:55 constant wind where youre located? 03:51:05 [discord] : https://mixer.com/oZINTUSo come check me out... I'm playing MW... Streaming my gameplay... 😉 Bored lolembed: oZINTUSo - Mixer - oZINTUSo - https://mixer.com/oZINTUSo 04:31:32 [discord] : can we like slow down on using the bridges to advertise thingies and more for keeping it on-topic or somethin? x) 04:31:32 [discord] : like, the hipsters on irc already not fond of discord, also, sidenote, you could directly stream directly on discord, like if you wanna give 2 boosts on the server, am sending you the amount in xmr through the tipbot and all done 😛 04:33:23 [discord] : I don't know how I would be able to do that with Xbox BTW.. 😉 04:33:50 [discord] : I guess watch my stream on mixer and stream that lol 04:34:20 [discord] : oh, right, thought that was on pc, no idea either 04:49:07 [discord] : Well, TBH you could come watch 😉 04:49:15 [discord] : 😛 05:17:42 [discord] : @Kayla 05:29:43 [discord] : eh, no likey fps games, also mixer is like from microsoft, right? same microsoft that doing that closed-source keylogged windows thingy or that blockchain data mining thingy: https://thecryptoassociate.com/microsoft-files-patent-for-mineable-cryptocurrency/ 05:30:12 [discord] : linux ftw \o/ :3 05:31:51 [discord] : Yeah 05:31:57 [discord] : Open source rules 06:50:27 Hmmm. Body activity data??? So, are microsoft partnering with xhamster, or are they copying pornhub's "proof of jerk" algorithm? 08:43:29 monero good 08:48:23 moonero, proof of jerky 08:51:49 moneromooo: Why wouldn't they trust a pool for 6 months? 08:52:15 If they'd just be a registered company or something with transparency the harm would be limited. 08:52:26 Also, they could just partner with finance people to sell futures. 08:52:51 So, Pool Inc. cuts a deal with Futures Trading Inc. They'll mine into their address, and the traders will pay out their Monero 08:53:31 meaning it's just strictly superior to mining with short lockup 08:53:53 (And exhausing the capital would be Futures Trading Inc.'s problem) 09:01:25 profits needs to be made to pay those future people, which increases the cost of operation, hense increased pool fee, and more incentive for miners to not use a pool 09:02:14 No, they don't 09:02:29 The futures people just see "X XMR in Y months", put it into their formula, and quote a price 09:02:51 If the price is too bad, miners can take the other side of the trade 09:02:57 'lending out' XMR to other miners 09:03:06 and earning the interest rate 09:03:47 if the pools do not pay, they don't have to work. there's exchange to buy/sell futures 09:03:53 if you'd like to improve mining, one idea I've had is to make the block size variable in the short-term: demand varies across day and night, and it's a waste to always fill blocks up to the cap 09:04:01 fuwa: Right, they go to the exchanges to sell futures 09:04:20 So if you'd make nighttime blocks smaller, and daytime blocks larger, it'd be more efficient 09:06:57 If the purpose is to make pool mining less bad, then one way might be to come up with a way to split rewards and contents. 09:07:10 and that's operation cost for the pool or whoever have to go through all these 09:07:34 So, the pool gets the whole reward, but individual miners can choose which txns to include 09:07:53 fuwa: Yes, but very small. Miners also have capital costs, so if anything this incentivizes pools 09:07:58 small? 09:08:24 pool fee is less then 1% 09:16:04 Yeah, and wht if they don't mine? The cost doesn't go away you know 09:16:34 don't pool mine* 09:17:12 ? :D what 09:18:06 What if you think then, that this pool fee of 1.05% is too much, and say you'd rather solo mine? 09:18:20 Then you'd be selling the futures contracts yourselves instead, and not saving anything 09:20:45 interesting, but that's assuming operation cost of selling is 0 09:21:13 that's the whole point, it's not 09:21:55 No it doesn't 09:22:02 Say Monero has an interest rate of 2% 09:22:45 then the formula is n * e^(-rt) 09:23:56 so if t = 6 months, and n = 1.8, then 1.8*e^(-0.02*0.5) = 1.8 * .9900 = 1.782 09:24:20 But solo miners need to pay this too, and they can probably not get as favourable deals with the exchanges 09:24:28 what 09:24:33 's n and r and t? 09:24:51 r = annualized interest rate 09:24:54 t = time in years 09:24:55 n = face value 09:28:54 So your proposal doesn't add anything, since you can synthetically choose to pay or receive the interest rate if you'd like. And solo miners face the same dilemma. 09:29:38 Making mining less predictably profitable might help, so that mining farms have no strong guarantee of profitability. But that seems like a poor idea, since it would kill the hashrate 09:31:03 i can't understand this formula :D 09:31:09 looks legit 09:31:49 but that's not my point 09:32:01 No, I get your point 09:32:11 Mining pools would have to pay the interest rate if they'd wish to pay upfront 09:32:14 Which would cause fees 09:32:29 But these fees would also have to be paid by solo miners if they want to get paid upfront. 09:32:56 thanks for explaining 09:33:03 yes that's what i meant 09:33:11 Also, the counterparty risk could be shifted: first I mine with a pool, which pays me Monero, and then I use those Monero to purchase a 6-month bond with a futures merchant I trust 09:34:31 I don't think there's any good way to disincentivize pooled mining, but we can make it less dangerous. By encouraging solutions like P2pool and allowing miners to choose which transactions to include, the centralization risk is decreased 09:37:58 yanmaani: your ideal analysis only works out when there is a readily avaialbe financial market built on monero, which cost nothing to op 09:38:20 which would be great, if true, and desiable 09:39:52 are you sure pool can solve the upfront money easily, without ramping up pool fees? 09:49:40 The fees are generally not super high 09:49:51 look at BitMEX for example, we're talking about like 0.075% 09:50:06 there's almost no counterparty risk, so you'll get a race to the bottom real quick 09:50:24 The pool will ahve to pay the interest, but the point is there's no asymmetry 09:50:31 So will small miners 09:50:37 Or both of them can wait 6 months 09:50:49 or the miner can mine, get the cash up front, and then invest it at the prevailing interest rate 09:51:15 so it just becomes pointless 09:53:44 did you take withdraw fee into account? 09:54:02 you gotta get the money out :D 09:55:55 nvm seems to be 0: https://www.bitmex.com/app/fees#Deposits--Withdrawals 09:56:05 interesting 09:57:18 it'll be a race to the bottom. The exchanges can be written in PHP and run by 12 year olds like that one bitcoin exchange once was and it doesn't matter 09:57:26 since the counterparty risk is just for a few minutes 10:03:14 seems legit :p 10:05:06 yanmaani: hey, don't diss tradeogre! it's enterprise quality php 10:05:50 asymptotically: TradeOgre is run by adults? 10:06:01 I was convinced it was run by ogres 10:06:04 or for ogres? 10:06:46 Bitcoinica is what I'm thinking of 10:07:22 and he was 16 not 12 10:09:21 "Bitcoinica was its sixteen-year-old creator’s first serious PHP project. He read up on PHP, Ruby on Rails, personal finance and startups, and wrote an exchange.82 It collapsed in May 2012: “No database backups … Everyone had root.”83 The exchange’s remaining funds were lost in further hacks, after the administrators turned out to be using their (leaked) Mt. Gox password as their LastPass 10:09:23 password.84" 10:13:42 time to increase the block unlock time to 50 years 10:14:52 e^(-0.02*50) = 37% 10:15:08 i.e. you just reduce the block reward by 63% 10:15:22 aint no body sell 10:15:47 eat that 10:18:34 yanmaani: can you explain why the interest rate needs to be positive? 10:19:05 just curious 10:19:32 fuwa: It doesn't. If the interest rate is negative, then you'll earn money by selling futures. 10:19:41 It seems like you could do cash-and-carry arbitrage though 10:19:48 and earn risk-free money 10:20:31 (buy monero, sell future expiring in 1 year, pocket the difference) 10:21:02 and since there's no cost of carry, it would be corrected 10:21:17 but the Euro has negative interest rate because there is no way to actually hold euros except for physical cash 10:21:22 which costs money to store 10:22:02 so it can be 0 10:23:01 nvm 10:24:45 yes, it can 10:25:03 thx :p 10:57:49 yanmaani: the more you have to wait, the more likely it is the pool does a runner in that time (and the more the yet unpaid monero the pool has, making the runner more likely). And from my experience, miners want to be paid more than daily or they freak out, it's crazy short term for many. 11:40:45 moneromooo: No, you don't have to wait. 11:40:59 The pool puts the monero in the exchange's account, the exchange sends unencumbered monero 11:41:11 The exchange does the waiting, but they also keep completel custody of the Moenro 11:43:46 wall street certified 12:45:55 moneromooo: Is the goal to disincentivize pooled mining, professional mining, or to make pools less harmful? 12:46:24 The goal of what ? 12:46:48 allowing the miner reward tx to be locked for longer for a greater reward, i think 12:47:26 Oh. That was to encourage people to mine themselves rather than to a pool. 12:48:09 It'd be interesting if a coin did this, to see if it causes this, or merely makes pool miners leave altogether. 12:48:19 Or just doesn't work. 12:55:18 moneromooo: Of your proposals. 12:55:28 Bitcoin does lock miner rewards, but for other reasons. 12:55:43 What would happen is that pools would start selling futures contracts and pay out identically. 13:00:17 That just moves the waiting, as you also admitted earlier. 13:01:58 There's no free lunch. You can smoosh out risk, but it still ends up somewhere. As fuwa said, the game might be to hide it well though :) 13:02:44 Well, in a world where risk is ~equivalent to money. 13:03:29 Like insurance, really. They can say "we protect your stuff" but we all (should) know it's bullshit. They just pay you if shit happens, but shit can still happen. 13:18:20 I suppose if the futures are sold by a really trustworthy counterparty, it might help bring costs down to very little. But even then I suspect that the failure of that counterparty would cost a lot more, such that the overall expected cost is the same in the very long run... 13:18:49 Since many poeple would likely trade with that counterparty for the perceived lower risk, meaning a failure costs money to a lot more people. 13:19:12 Why am I even thinking about economics here. Bleh. 13:25:57 Hi 13:26:45 I want to spread the blockchain directory of my custom node over multiple folders is this possible with monerod? 13:27:52 Maybe if you use LVM. 13:27:53 The Monero blockchain is basically a single very big file that you can't split into smaller files. I don't see how you could use "multiple folders". 13:29:02 Can I use LVM on drives that are already being used 13:29:25 currently I have my blockchain on my main drive where root is located 13:29:35 but it is almost full 13:29:48 and I still have an empty drive 13:29:48 No clue. I just know LVM can span multiple disks, but even that's a long shot. rbrunner7's answer is probably the right one. 13:30:10 can I just somehow add its volume to the main drive with LVM? 13:30:20 No clue. I just know LVM can span multiple disks, but even that's a long shot. rbrunner7's answer is probably the right one. 13:31:09 ok I will try geting my hands on a bigger drive 13:31:33 Are you aware that the feenode IRC is blocking tor exit nodes? 13:32:05 No. Are you using SASL ? There's a special setup if you use tor. 13:32:20 ie, you can't go through the bog standard irc.freenode.net. 13:32:29 I tried using kiwi 13:32:38 the online firc client 13:32:43 irc* 13:32:56 There's a howto somewhere on freenode.net. 13:33:11 ok i'll check it out 13:33:32 The one anonying thing is that you need to have made an account without tor first, which is understandable but kinda defeats the point. 13:34:02 well that indeed defeats the point 13:34:02 So many people seem to have it in for freenode. No good deed goes unpunished I guess... 13:34:28 why don't you guys migrate to a more tor friendly environment? 13:34:31 as a privacy focussed cryptocurrency 13:34:49 I like IRC. But many people went elsewhere. 13:35:15 maybe you could create a XMPP group 13:35:43 Find someone who's got some reputation with the monero community who wants to create one. 13:36:01 I could do that 13:36:05 Or create one and see if people flock to it. 13:36:12 it is quite easy to setup 13:36:27 yes maybe ill do that 13:38:08 you are a developer for the monero project right? 13:39:55 Yes. 13:40:34 is there a fork coming soon? 13:40:44 No. 13:41:03 Well, depends on how soon you mean I guess. No set date anyway. 13:41:18 are you working on post-quantum cryptography? 13:41:56 I think it's mostly about waiting to see what research in the field yields atm. 13:42:15 makes sense 13:42:15 And whether new schemes get broken :) 13:42:57 do you think the opaqueness of the current blockchain will be broken? 13:43:19 eg RingCT and ring signatures 13:43:29 So vague and unknown. But attacks only get better. 13:43:49 which attacks currently exist? 13:44:03 I have read about malicious miners 13:45:40 Search for "breaking monero", I think this lists most of them or so. 13:46:57 ok 13:47:12 any you think are especially dangerous? 13:49:43 also 13:49:52 if ringCT would be broken 13:50:04 then all amounts would be public right? 13:50:30 does the protocol include mixins that are possible 13:51:00 so that have sufficient balance? 13:51:42 and even in that case wouldnt it be possible with enough computing power to correlate transactions if all amounts are public? 13:55:55 would it be better to send transaction change to a fresh subaddress instead of to the main address? 14:11:59 About " can I just somehow add its volume to the main drive with LVM?" 14:13:59 Even Windows support the concept of mount points. Meaning, you can add an extra partition anywhere on your existing structure. 14:20:36 moneromooo: No, there's very limited counterparty risk. 14:20:44 The futures contract people absorb it. 14:21:06 They loan 1.8 XMR, sell it, and then cover their short when the Monero they bought becomes unencumbered. 14:21:22 If they mess up their hedging, then that's their problem. 14:21:29 The miners or the pools don't have to worry 14:22:19 They get their money instantly 14:22:54 The exchange has to hold the bags and do the waiting, and they get paid for this risk. But it's less like buying fire insurance than selling your house: if it burns down, not my problem, I got paid already 14:46:10 "Absorb" is not free, but whatever. 14:47:27 Does that mean that, if the exchange believes that the XMR/USD rate is going to drop significantly over the next period, miners will accept a significantly lower pay per block found? 14:59:00 .xmr 14:59:30 .usd 14:59:45 .price usd 15:00:16 mining in a lan with one computer access to internet ? is this possible, how? 15:00:45 Proxy springs to mind. 15:01:15 [discord] : I agree proxy 15:01:25 TrasherDK1 : any link to try? :) 15:01:50 Jeezzz. Google xmr proxy. 15:02:37 i tried but idk if i can apply this to xmrig 15:02:49 [discord] : TrasherDK1 lol they just wanna be spoon fed 15:02:58 If it's stratum, you can. 15:04:03 actually im reading atm about haproxy :) 15:04:11 nway thank you. 15:04:45 xmrig can mine against a monero daemon. No pool needed. If you wanna go full nerd, use monero-pool. Also available on google... 15:05:19 noted TrasherDK1 15:05:49 8-) 15:06:12 i hope i can make it :) 4 tesla kinda useful 15:06:54 I have no clue as to what that mean, but hey.. 15:10:37 [discord] : Hey TrasherDK that monero-pool built in C that is on github is a pretty simple looking application but I'd like to see what the API looks like.. I'd like to know how hard it will be to make a different UI read this API... I really like the dvandal pool but am having soooooo many problems with it since the Muscleman incident... 15:17:27 moneromooo: ?? 15:17:46 If it's 6 months then that's 6 months of interest, so somewhere in the ballpark of 1% 15:17:52 TrasherDK1: spot-future parity 15:19:29 I know about "The Muscleman incident". It doesn't get worse than that. What a dick. 15:20:52 [discord] : Yeah I cannot get a new pool up and going... This current one reports found blocks as "Prop" in the block hash field.. I put an issue on it, but I'm no coder so I don't know where to look lol 15:20:55 what? 15:21:45 [discord] : I recognized your name from Github Trasher 15:24:26 The "API" is pretty limited at the moment, but the code base is easy to read, if you feel like extending the UI. A separate application doing stuff with the database, getting data over to a separate db, to display all kinds of stats, would be cool. 15:27:51 yanmaani: I guess I don't get it. How can you put a number on the price of any currency in 6 months? 15:29:54 LOUD Mining: I have a pre "Musclemann fuckup" clone of that thing. It's probably pre randomx, but no pain no gain... 15:29:56 By using plenty of currencies I guess. One might fall hard, but if enough of them don't, you take the hit in the former and still profit from the rest. There's a hidden cost though, if the company folds. Much less likely, but much more damage if it does. So people dismiss it. 15:30:33 And hey, it works most of the time. 15:32:29 Yeah, until it don't. Then shit hit's the fan... Everybody screaming scam.. 15:32:57 [discord] : TrasherDK1: I as well.. But I thought RandomX came out in early 19? Like March or something... I dunno I honestly am just getting into Monero... I've been reading things here and there but there's so much false information and confusing links and dead links now that it's hard to find anything relevant to RandomX. 15:33:56 [discord] : TrasherDK1: I would love to start up a Monero pool to add to our site... It's just very confusing to say the least... 15:35:53 [discord] : I would be interested in looking at your clone to see the differences between what I already have and what you have... 15:41:31 Mine is too old for RandomX. It's from Jul 7, 2019. I kinda gave up on the software when that dude went all dictator on it. 15:44:10 [discord] : UGH... This is so frustrating... 15:44:18 Actually, the clone I have on my server is much later than the github thing. 15:44:56 [discord] : would you mind zipping it up and sending to me?? 15:45:11 commit 720bab9b9e26b923d2004c85c417c483136f96b5 - Sat Nov 16 11:08:57 2019 -0600 - adding RandomX back into pool.js 15:45:33 [discord] : ♥️ 15:46:09 TrasherDK1: Spot-future parity 15:46:11 This is about that time when he started to fuck around with dev fee, and donation addresses. 15:46:12 google it 15:46:21 If it's not the same as now, the current price would adjust 15:46:33 I explained it above 15:47:05 You're gonna get 1.8 XMR in 6 months. You seek to find out how much XMR you can pay now and have a zero PNL. 15:47:32 So you take a loan of N XMR so that your liability in 6 months comes to 1.8 XMR. Find N by looking at the interest rate, like of a zero-coupon bond 15:47:59 Then use the loan to pay out, and cover it as soon as reward becomes unencumbered. Done. 15:48:20 If the company folds, that is their problem - they pay upfront, remember? 15:48:38 [discord] : TrasherDK1: Oh I've already figured out how to remove the donation addresses and replace it with my own so I can actually get the pool to payout the fees... If he had placed that functionality into the pool in the first place I think that no one would have started removing his donation addresses... I mean NOMP and other pools I've used already have the `PoolFeeAddress: "",` built into the config... I m 15:49:44 yanmaani: Okay. Leave it.. I'm not going to dive into the inner workings of financial markets... 15:50:51 There's no need. Getting rid of financial risk for free is like perpetual motion. There's always a hidden cost. 15:51:20 Granted, economics is much more... woolly :) 15:51:22 Yeah. Shit ain't free.. 15:52:18 Cue someone trying to find a special case where it is free... 15:53:02 moneromooo: The only risk here is that Monero crashes. 15:53:15 Well. Knock your selves out.. I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting :D 15:53:31 And that's not a problem in this model, since their liability is also in XMR. 15:55:13 Are you going to offer your solution with 50 x leverage? 15:57:17 So, in this model: I keep a pile of money lying around (USD, XAU, XMR, XBT, don't matter). Someone wants to sell a block reward of XMR 1.8. I quote them an interest rate, say 2%. They mine it to an address I control. I immediately sell XMR 1.8, and also give them 1.7 XMR. 15:57:45 In 6 months, I will get XMR 1.8. 15:58:12 If I sell it on margin, then I have to pay interest. If this interest is below XMR 0.1, I gain money. 15:58:20 Else I lose. 15:58:35 TrasherDK1: no, no need for that 15:58:49 If I'm using my own capital, then it's just like putting it in the bank. 15:59:01 Basically, all you've done is re-invented a bizarre form of proof of stake. 15:59:04 [discord] : TrasherDK1: Dude, I think your copy is newer than my copy... I'm forking you xD 16:00:27 Wait a minute.. I'll branch and push.. 16:02:44 [discord] : it's like 1023 commits ahead of dvandal's... 16:05:27 Okay. My local is the same as my master. Go for it.. 16:06:41 I haven't done a fetch upstream in a long time. I didn't like the shit he was pulling. 16:09:57 BTW. I have no idea who's donation addresses are in there. 16:10:12 [keybase] : @jamy.cho "why don't you guys migrate to a more tor friendly environment?" 16:10:12 [keybase] : you mean like keybase? :P 16:10:22 [discord] : it will be muscleman... But I am adding my own so it won't matter.. LoL... 16:12:09 TOR is for CIA and criminals. Haven't you heard? 16:12:42 [discord] : and IRC is for boomers hipsters, haven't you heard? :3 16:13:14 Dude. I'm older than your dad. 16:13:29 [discord] : 😿 16:15:19 [discord] : Btw I have fixed the proto-pollution problem with mailgun-js... I have the repo on my git for mailgun-js... I am sure it's a simple solution for them to fix but I don't have the time to play with them... I just forked it and fixed it on my own repo then will add it to my forked version of your fork... LMAO 16:15:42 Come to think about it. My generation caused to boom :D 16:16:19 s/to/the 16:16:21 [discord] : TrasherDK1: lmao I'm a product of a boomer... lmao 16:16:54 [discord] : I'm 42 so yeah you're probably old enough to be my dad.. xD 16:17:19 Second generation boomer. 16:18:25 So you are spawning millennials ? 16:18:39 [discord] : I spawned only one... lol 16:19:04 [discord] : And he's def a Millenial ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 16:19:33 Well. Looking at those spoilde fuckups, one is plenty. 16:20:14 Okay. Back to whatever we were talking about.. 16:20:18 [discord] : Absolutely... I don't regret having him, I only regret WHO it was that I had him with... 16:20:35 [discord] : Yep... I've just fixed my package.json.. 16:20:53 [discord] : removed muscleman as the maintainer... lol 16:21:13 [discord] : Added my mailgun-js git. 16:21:22 [discord] : let's see.. Time to change donation address... 16:21:40 ME ME ME! 16:23:08 [discord] : You can change it yourself... It's in lib/configReader.js 16:23:26 [discord] : just delete all those and put what you want in, in that format.. 🙂 16:24:23 [discord] : also line 117 `let percent = config.blockUnlocker.devDonation || 0.2;;` just remove that... 16:25:32 Jezz... You just forked that stuff off me, and now you are telling me about the donation / fee stuff. That was what all my PR's was about. 16:27:17 [discord] : Just saying I removed his and added mine so I could get my pool fees paid out... Otherwise the pool fees just sit there... 16:28:28 [discord] : Have to just use the wallet and get the fees that were paid that way... Not cool if you asked me... But either way... This has helped me very much! I just wish I had found this out sooner! 16:29:10 [discord] : How can we donate to you?? I wanna send you a beer or something... 16:29:40 If I remember correctly, there's another mechanism for separating pool into fee wallet. I might remember wrong thou.. 16:30:24 [discord] : it's not built in there that I can tell... if so there'd be a `poolFeeAddress: "",` option in the config.json 16:30:36 No problem. Should I get thirsty, I'll let you know. 16:31:32