05:00:06 <TheJollyRoger> Hi guys. Just for a bit of casual fun I decided I would make a seed storage system for storing Monero seeds. The sentence will be 25 words long but each word can be unambiguously identified by the first three letters, is that about right...?
05:00:56 <TheJollyRoger> https://jollyrogers.ca/public/SEEDSTASH-III-FRONT.png This is what my current version looks like, I'm thinking of changing it a little bit, since this version has only 24 slots.
05:01:06 <TheJollyRoger> But each slot has 4 letters each.
05:04:08 <TheJollyRoger> I've been messing around with engraving and thought this would be a fun application for it.
05:13:51 <tryphe> TheJollyRoger, looking good :)
05:13:59 <TheJollyRoger> Thanks!
05:14:28 <tryphe> also i think you're right about the three letter uniqueness, but never looked through the whole list to confirm
05:15:23 <TheJollyRoger> Oh excellent! I set up the parameters so I can quickly tweak them... but I have to change the numbers and that I have to do by hand in this CADD application.
05:17:27 <tryphe> presumably they are unique because you'd be able to have a list with 26^3 prefixes, so 10x bigger than the list
05:18:55 <TheJollyRoger> Ten times the list!
05:20:23 <TheJollyRoger> Oh yeah uh... just a quick thing I should mention! I'm only planning to have the computer engrave the text box. I don't intend to actually fill out the numbers. I figured it would be far safer if I just published the PDFs with the dimensions, then let the users simply take it to any local engraving shop. I would expect that the user would just fill in the blanks using an electropencil engraver and
05:20:25 <TheJollyRoger> a stencil guide.
05:21:28 <tryphe> yeah, could just have people optionally buy a dremel or something and do it themselves
05:21:39 <TheJollyRoger> Yeah! Yeah just like that.
05:22:51 <nioc> I believe the seeds are in 10 languages and don't know if the 3 letter uniqueness applies to all of them
05:22:57 <tryphe> i like the stacked plates method, weather proof and the key isn't visible to man or machine
05:23:06 <TheJollyRoger> Oh wow. Ten languages?!
05:23:54 <nioc> start to create a new wallet and it will give you the language options for the seed
05:24:26 <tryphe> https://github.com/monero-project/monero/tree/master/src/mnemonics
05:24:39 <TheJollyRoger> Thanks! Yeah, I was thinking that it would be nice if I could put a padlock on the device, and then keep it safely shut. What I was thinking for that nut was I'd probably drive a stake through the nut post-assembly, so that way the plates once assembled (it's easiest to engrave them if they aren't stuck together), the nut can't be undone without breaking the stake or the bolt.
05:24:54 <tryphe> 12+ languages it looks like :o
05:25:01 <TheJollyRoger> Twelve?!
05:26:28 <nioc> there are existing 24 word storage methods and being that the 25th is a checksum and therefore a repeat of one of the others there are ways to make it work with 24 such as putting that one upside down.  Having 25 would be nice but not necessary
05:27:02 <tryphe> yeah there's definitely a lot of 3 letter patterns reused in lojban, haha
05:27:41 <TheJollyRoger> Here we go. Let me just export and upload a picture of what it looks like with 25 spaces of 3 letters each...
05:27:51 <TheJollyRoger> I had to kinda cram it all into place so it's a little more claustrophobic...
05:28:48 <tryphe> TheJollyRoger, bolt + gasket sealer would work incase you wanted to seal it, harder to reopen than padlock though i guess
05:29:18 <tryphe> plus if the front was blank nobody would know what it was lol
05:29:30 <TheJollyRoger> Oh hey that's a good idea. I could just leave the front blank!
05:32:05 <tryphe> stealth option!
05:32:29 <tryphe> also hard to distuinguish from scrap metal...
05:32:45 <TheJollyRoger> Yeah T_T. Hahahaha which is sorta the problem I have XD
05:32:57 <TheJollyRoger> https://jollyrogers.ca/public/SEEDSTASH-XMR-ASSEMBLY.png This is what it looks like with 25 spots of 3.
05:35:01 <tryphe> looks like it needs a bit of space for some of those esperanto words :D
05:35:31 <TheJollyRoger> I don't use cryptocurrency since I have a terminal case of what I call FOBSCO (Fear Of Being Screwed Over), but I have a somewhat surprising use case for these, and that's to use these to generate and back up my GPG, Signify, and Keytool Private Keys. In the future I would like to do Android development, and I'v heard all these horror stories about how people have lost their app signing keys, and
05:35:32 <tryphe> epriskribebla
05:35:33 <TheJollyRoger> if you lose your keys, that's it, you're done, you need to essentially start all over again.
05:35:42 <TheJollyRoger> Oh yipes.
05:36:19 <TheJollyRoger> Hmm. Maybe I should put the other 13-12 words on the other half...?
05:36:48 <tryphe> yeah maybe engrave the back or something too if you can
05:37:09 <tryphe> of the middle one
05:37:48 <TheJollyRoger> Sure, can do! The middle one's actually got enough room for ten character lines between the front and the back, it's double sided ^_^
05:37:49 <tryphe> you could also have different sized bolts to stack any amount of plates
05:38:13 <TheJollyRoger> Ooh. Oh yeah... they're in increments of .25", so I could add two more plates even.
05:38:42 <tryphe> nice
05:38:44 <TheJollyRoger> Hey wait this is a great idea. I could put 12 words on one side, 13 on the other, and use the empty spot of the first one to add the Monero "M" logo.
05:38:54 <TheJollyRoger> Good thinking, let me get to work on that...
05:39:07 <tryphe> also having a "plate title" would be nice to describe the coin/wallet name
05:39:19 <tryphe> that way if you stack 10 plates you have the title on each plate
05:39:52 <TheJollyRoger> Got it. I think I could add a line at the free end of the plate then!
05:42:09 <tryphe> you could also offer different fancier metals for upgraded cost :D steel->aluminum->brass or something
05:42:29 <TheJollyRoger> Ehehe, I'm one step ahead of you there actually :D. Materials I've decided on:
05:42:45 <tryphe> i mean not that you'd need to bury it for 1000 years but hey you never know :p
05:44:41 <TheJollyRoger> The prototypes I'd want to make from T304 stainless because that's cheaper but still will offer good performance and approximate the real thing. The production versions I want to produce from T316 stainless because it's much more rust resistant. I'm picking stainless steel because I figured aluminium would simply melt into slag during a house fire. On the higher end, I was thinking commercially
05:44:43 <TheJollyRoger> pure Titanium alloy (grade 2 titanium) because it's more resistant to strong acid at high temperature and I can order 6Al-4V (grade 5) titanium bolts. On the highest end, I chose 718 Nickel Alloy, or Inconel, with 400 Nickel Alloy bolts.
05:45:09 <tryphe> ahh yeah good point about aluminum
05:45:13 <tryphe> titatium even :p
05:45:22 <tryphe> even better* rather
05:45:34 <TheJollyRoger> Hehehe, yeah. I figured that the biggest danger someone might have would be if say, their house burned down.
05:46:47 <TheJollyRoger> Nickel would be insane... it's not cheap, but it will stand up to abrasion, acid, and heat all at the same time. But it's incredibly expensive. I don't know if it would offer most people any appreciable benefit over stainless steel, except maybe for the assurance that it would probably last for thousands of years.
05:47:35 <tryphe> yeah, ideally most people would just need the stainless to avoid fires and flood
05:47:40 <TheJollyRoger> Yeah.
05:47:48 <tryphe> at least to upgrade from paper
05:47:53 <TheJollyRoger> Oh yeah.
05:48:58 <tryphe> throw those babies on openbazaar when you go into production!
05:49:40 <TheJollyRoger> Hehe, I will ^_^. I was thinking of making only a couple as novelties and to store my GPG private key, but maybe it would be fun to have them in the community :D. My little thumbprint.
05:50:10 <TheJollyRoger> Thank you so much :D This is fun ^_^.
05:50:46 <tryphe> i think tons of people would buy it tbh, i was thinking of rigging together something similar
05:50:53 <TheJollyRoger> \o/ Yay
05:51:15 <tryphe> people are starting to adopt a bit more it seems so maybe now is the right time
05:52:04 <TheJollyRoger> Wow!
05:52:05 <tryphe> i mean you wouldn't even need to run monero-wallet-cli to use it, any bip39 wallet, even crappy webwallets could have metal backups
05:52:17 <TheJollyRoger> Well...
05:52:37 <tryphe> it would be a marked improvement over the sticky note in their desk lol
05:52:57 <TheJollyRoger> I bought myself a Trezor Model T at a friend's recommendation to use for GPG, U2F, and to hold my SSH Private keys. I tried futzing around with the bitcoin testnet a while back but I've never tried to use it for monero before...?
05:53:01 <TheJollyRoger> Ahahahaha yes XD
05:53:19 <tryphe> i would be curious what the longest word is out of the common bip39 wallets, though
05:53:28 <tryphe> just to get an idea of how much space to allocate
05:53:33 <TheJollyRoger> I kind of like the Trezor Model T because it has its own colour screen, and you can just enter the recovery sentence using your finger
05:53:46 <TheJollyRoger> I think only the first four letters count!
05:54:00 <TheJollyRoger> But you can enter the first four and then it'll unambiguously display the whole word from those four.
05:55:19 <TheJollyRoger> So for the other one I only gave the user four "slots" to write down four letters, that's it.
05:55:56 <TheJollyRoger> I think the engraving letter stencil is around a quarter inch tall, by a little bit more than an eighth of an inch wide.
05:56:15 <TheJollyRoger> I gave around 0.4" x 0.28" of space for each box, just in case.
05:57:07 <TheJollyRoger> For scale, the entire SeedStash is 6" (150mm) long by 3" (75mm) tall. The sheets are 1/8" thick or just around 3mm thick, and weighs a little under two pounds, it's quite heavy.
05:57:34 <TheJollyRoger> I'm not quite sure what other languages I'd need... let me go back to the list and see X(
05:57:41 <tryphe> should work, but i'm curious if the four letter thing is true
05:57:55 <tryphe> i would assume some shitcoin would make a bip39 list that eventually breaks that rule lol
05:58:03 <TheJollyRoger> Let me try it out... one sec.
05:58:14 * TheJollyRoger resets his Model T.
05:58:50 <TheJollyRoger> Oh uh... huh. Hey wait up, there are coins with their own wordsystem?
05:58:56 <tryphe> should be true though, 4 characters is a decent amount of prefixes
05:59:10 <tryphe> yeah technically bip39 supports any word list
05:59:11 <TheJollyRoger> O_O. Hey wait a minute. I hope I don't have to make one plate for each one now.
05:59:34 * TheJollyRoger fiddles with the touch pen and the little screen.
06:00:01 <TheJollyRoger> I think it's working so far. I'm entering the words one by one, then once I reach four letters, it turns green and displays the whole word.
06:00:03 <tryphe> bip39 is just the generation scheme but the word list can be anything. you just have to remember which wordlist you used if it was custom :D
06:00:11 <TheJollyRoger> :O Oh!
06:00:19 <TheJollyRoger> Oh wow. I missed that part entirely.
06:00:45 <TheJollyRoger> Then I have to hold down the button and it allows me to advance to the next one.
06:01:10 <tryphe> i'm sure most lists are simple though, maybe you could have an option for 4/8 character boxes per word or something
06:01:26 <TheJollyRoger> Huh, maybe :O.
06:02:17 <TheJollyRoger> Huh. This gadget seems to have its own wordlist, I wonder if it could be made to work with Monero or if it just works with GPG, U2F, and SSH and Bitcoin...?
06:02:27 <TheJollyRoger> Let me just do a quick bit of searching....
06:02:38 <tryphe> not sure if anyone would realistically need more than 4 though, but i assume there are some languages that use many repeated prefixes
06:03:00 <tryphe> probably without word lists yet but still :p
06:03:52 <TheJollyRoger> Oh hey wait a minute. All the cryptographic keys and curves are the same, right...?
06:04:07 <tryphe> nah
06:04:11 <TheJollyRoger> NISTP256, Ed25519, NISTP384, et al?
06:04:29 <tryphe> yeah, mostly
06:04:49 <tryphe> "same" in some general sense i guess
06:04:56 <TheJollyRoger> Since maybe this is how the Trezor has its own word list but seems to support this massive bunch of other coins...?
06:05:19 <tryphe> i use different coins with different curves but they all support bip39 the same, it's just used to generate the private key
06:05:33 <TheJollyRoger> Oh, wow.
06:05:42 <tryphe> then you clamp the key to the curve
06:07:09 <tryphe> well, you can derive the words into multiple things actually, hd wallets or just one key, etc.
06:07:52 <TheJollyRoger> X). I think maybe I'm gonna have to start trying to use cryptocurrency, ahahaha
06:08:46 <tryphe> the word generation is pretty much unrelated to all the crypto stuff, though
06:09:29 <tryphe> you can use any lengthy list of words like you could use some random bits, it's just easier to write down the words instead, and you spread the entropy out with more characters
06:09:55 <tryphe> so maybe if you lose some of the characters, but the words are long, it's easier to restore than hex or something
06:10:47 <TheJollyRoger> Makes sense, lots more entries in a dictionary, than there are letters on a keyboard and they're human-meaningful.
06:12:20 <tryphe> yep
06:13:30 <tryphe> i'm not sure more than 4 characters is necessary on engraved metal though, although maybe having more than 4 for extra entropy would be nice for paranoia
06:14:12 <tryphe> then you'd need to destroy a good bit of each word to make it hard to regenerate
06:14:44 <TheJollyRoger> Huh. I was sorta always under the impression it was sort of the length of the wordlist, rather than just the number of letters, that gives it its cryptographic strength...?
06:14:56 <tryphe> yep exactly
06:15:01 <TheJollyRoger> Got it!
06:15:07 <tryphe> but extra entropy in the words for durability is always nice
06:15:16 <tryphe> since languages are repetitive
06:15:33 <tryphe> i think that's why words were chosen over base32 or something, for example
06:16:25 <TheJollyRoger> Hee hee... sure easier for me to check words for spelling errors than gibberish! X(
06:16:32 <tryphe> haha yeah
06:17:16 <tryphe> the word list makes it a bit complicated but words are nice and recognisable vs random text could be any data at all
06:17:26 <TheJollyRoger> Yeah. ^_^
06:18:29 <TheJollyRoger> My current GPG keys, I had to back up to a CD... I'm definitely not happy about that, so I'm looking forward to being able to roll them over to a set of keys generated deterministically.
06:18:54 <tryphe> that's also the reason why they didn't choose words like "ant" or something. if you choose short words, it's hard to discern from any other words if you lose a few characters
06:19:03 <TheJollyRoger> Oh yeah!
06:23:50 <tryphe> you know what would also be a good way to store them? like a feeler gauge set if you've ever seen one.
06:24:00 <TheJollyRoger> Oh yes!
06:24:18 <tryphe> that would be pretty small but still easy to see the seed
06:24:27 <tryphe> but not accidentally
06:25:04 <TheJollyRoger> Yeah. Could even insert a length of wire through the stack, and then crimp it closed or even put a nylon cabletie around it and zip it closed for tamper evidencing.
06:25:45 <tryphe> true!
06:26:27 <tryphe> i wonder how much it costs to get unmarked feeler gauges, haha
06:26:47 <tryphe> or maybe you could make your own
06:27:10 <TheJollyRoger> Ahahaha well... I could try to see if I could find some scraps of thin sheet metal and see if I can engrave stuff on them, then see how they fare if I put them in a kiln and heat that sucker up until they glow red hot...?
06:28:19 <tryphe> sounds good, lol
06:28:26 <TheJollyRoger> Ahahaha great X)
06:29:28 <TheJollyRoger> I think I'll try to get them up to around 1800 degrees farenheit. Two thousand should be hotter than most house fires would get.
06:29:51 <tryphe> yeah
06:30:02 <tryphe> i guess a volcano would be the worst enemy
06:30:09 <TheJollyRoger> Oh yipes.
06:30:14 <tryphe> lol
06:30:19 <TheJollyRoger> Now that... that is something where Nickel would come in handy.
06:30:44 <TheJollyRoger> But I'm actually unsure even nickel would survive being immersed in lava.
06:31:17 <TheJollyRoger> Actually, wait, nickel prooobably would?
06:31:25 <TheJollyRoger> Yeah, it would.
06:31:56 <tryphe> titanium too i guess
06:32:01 <tryphe> maybe?
06:32:25 <tryphe> i guess it depends on the location inside the volcano :p
06:32:31 <TheJollyRoger> Ahaha, yeah XD
06:33:22 <TheJollyRoger> If we assume that the lava is rolling down the sides of the volcano, a quick search on DDG seems to indicate ~2200 degrees F. Nickel will melt past 2600, so it'll survive. Titanium though has a very nasty tendency to burn.
06:34:08 <tryphe> seems good enough to me then lol
06:34:17 <TheJollyRoger> Yay X)
06:35:32 <TheJollyRoger> Hehe. I suppose if you live in Hawaii, Southern Mexico, the southern Indochina islands, or Sicily or the western United States then this is a pretty legitimate concern... :O
06:35:59 <TheJollyRoger> The question then I gotta figure out is how to figure out how to find the seed post engulfment, ahahaha.
06:36:06 <tryphe> lol
06:37:32 <tryphe> it is an interesting problem
06:37:59 <TheJollyRoger> Ahaha, yeah...
06:43:16 <TheJollyRoger> Maybe we'll have to take a leaf out of Yubikey's book and just sell like "Value Packs" XD
06:46:56 <tryphe> yeah but everyone with yubikey will also need one :)
06:47:35 <tryphe> if you make good stuff you'll always have buyers i think, at least for now
06:52:36 <TheJollyRoger> Yay
06:52:38 <TheJollyRoger> ^_^
13:38:01 <yanmaani> TheJollyRoger: https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-round-iii/
17:23:36 <hpfr[m]> How “bad” is KYC for someone who just wants to buy some BTC and XMR? I know it’s ideal to use a local P2P service but am I going to actually regret something like Kraken if I’m just a fairly casual low-volume buyer experimenting with crypto
17:55:45 <moneromooo> You can always start the process, then stop if the list of stuff they ask is too much for you.
18:02:50 <hpfr[m]> moneromooo: I mean I doubt it would be too much, but I’m not super knowledgeable on what the consequences could be. Obviously I’m not doing anything illegal, but I was looking for more knowledgeable opinions on what KYC means for an average user. A lot of people on r/monero argue that it should still be avoided for mass surveillance reasons and potential hacking of exchange KYC records
18:26:03 <tryphe> it won't be too much until they send you a source of funds request and treathen to freeze your funds if you don't send them unreasonable amounts of info
18:26:05 <tryphe> happened to me
18:26:13 <yanmaani> If you buy XBT and then exchange that into XMR you shouldn't have a problem
18:26:21 <yanmaani> Crypto to crypto doesn't need KYC
18:26:36 <tryphe> depends on the exchange
18:27:45 <hpfr[m]> yeah I could always do BTC to XMR with like bisq or something
18:28:18 <hpfr[m]> what exchange would you guys recommend then? Kraken seems like it has the best rep among the Monero community
18:28:42 <hpfr[m]> it's hard to do research because it seems like VPN's where every search result is some review site that's probably paid by exchanges to review positively
18:29:20 <tryphe> i bought some xmr using waves exchange recently using their waves/visa payment gateway thing. non-custodial too.
18:29:27 <tryphe> seems pretty good, as good as bisq or so
18:30:11 <tryphe> it doesn't have thousands of btc but there'
18:30:17 <tryphe> there's plenty of bots on there to take your order
18:31:08 <tryphe> might be worth a try
18:31:23 <Inge-> tryphe: what exchange?
18:31:39 <tryphe> Inge-, waves.exchange
18:31:42 <Inge-> oh
18:32:26 <Inge-> Kraken seems to be very cryptofriendly. And they have fiat pairings and monero. What's not to like (except KYC)?
18:33:40 <hpfr[m]> I think for now I'll get a Kraken account for BTC, then I could always move to a local wallet and use godex, morphtoken, etc to get XMR. that seems like the most usable option right now
18:33:59 <tryphe> ability to arbitrarily freeze/steal funds is worse than kyc imo
18:34:23 <hpfr[m]> I don't intend to keep a lot of money on exchange wallets
18:34:52 <tryphe> true, i guess kyc exchanges are good enough for a quick exchange
18:35:31 <Mochi101> Funds are Safu with Binance
18:35:41 <tryphe> lol
18:35:59 <hpfr[m]> Mochi101: ?
18:36:05 <Mochi101> Binance.com
18:36:16 <tryphe> my funds were safu with binance until they told me my country is no longer supported on their "platform"
18:36:32 <Mochi101> oh you're in the USA ?
18:37:27 <ndorf> unrelated, but Kraken is trying to go after some former employees for posting on glassdoor: https://www.eff.org/cases/payward-inc-kraken-v-does-1-10
18:39:40 <Mochi101> I don't like Kraken, I used to have an account there.. but then they wanted me to KYC for a first tier account.
18:40:04 <Mochi101> IE: only crypto in and only crypto out
18:40:22 <Mochi101> I told them they can keep the account and I don't want it anymore.
18:41:42 <tryphe> even if only you do crypto-crypto, your crypto still gets traded with fiat holders, so i think the kyc of fiat pairs bleeds over into crypto-only users
18:42:58 <hpfr[m]> well i'm in US, so binance isn't great. plus I sometimes come across reservations about whatever they're doing with binance coin
18:43:24 <tryphe> mixing of wallet funds probably also has something to do with it as well. don't even need to even makes trades for your deposits to go into the fund pool that fiat users will withdraw from
18:43:25 <Mochi101> only way that we win is if we buck the kyc exchainges
18:43:29 <Mochi101> only way that we win is if we buck the kyc exchanges
18:44:06 <tryphe> ^^ :D
19:19:38 <hpfr[m]> well it looks like my alternative for USD-BTC or USD-XMR is agoradesk. trying to decide if mailing cash to vegas is worth avoiding giving Kraken my ID
19:20:10 <TheJollyRoger> yanmaani: Ooh... I like the look of this!
19:24:35 <nioc> agora is run by localmonero
19:25:32 <hpfr[m]> nioc: right, just for more currencies
19:44:03 <Inge-> hpfr[m]: Send Nudes!
19:44:25 <yanmaani> hpfr[m]: Why go through the trouble? Buy XBT using some exchange with KYC out the wazoo, then exchange it for XMR using any of the hundreds of non-custodial exchanges
19:46:07 <hpfr[m]> yanmaani: that's what I was thinking, but I was considering the risk of an exchange having my govt ID and proof of residence, they could get hacked
19:46:33 <hpfr[m]> is it just not that big a deal? I guess PayPal has my info, but I would trust a crypto exchange somewhat less
19:46:39 <Inge-> ask binance
19:46:44 <mmxxx[m]>  kek
19:47:03 <Inge-> https://thehackernews.com/2019/08/binance-kyc-data-leak.html
19:47:14 <hpfr[m]> Inge-: ?
19:47:14 <mmxxx[m]> you trust paypal more than exchange
19:47:21 <mmxxx[m]> such logic
19:47:34 <hpfr[m]> ^
19:47:40 <Inge-> hpfr[m]: kyc information DID leak, from one of Binances's subcontractors I think.
19:47:58 <hpfr[m]> exactly, that's my concern
19:48:47 <hpfr[m]> mmxxx: not to support fiat, but paypal has a bit more of a track record than kraken or binance
19:49:25 <hpfr[m]> as demonstrated by Inge's link
19:49:38 <mmxxx[m]> I wouldn't put kraken and binance in the same category at all
19:49:41 <mmxxx[m]> binance is a piece of shit
19:50:11 <hpfr[m]> Now this is the kind of opinion I was looking for
19:50:14 <Inge-> I'd agree that Kraken and Coinbase probably have their shit pretty well together
19:50:19 <mmxxx[m]> and even then it would still be a toss up between who I trust more with regards to paypal...
19:50:20 <Inge-> being US regulated exchanges
19:51:01 <Inge-> I'd be less concerned about Kraken than paypal
19:51:52 <Inge-> https://www.coindesk.com/kraken-ceo-crypto-exchange-wont-comply-with-new-york-inquiry
19:54:48 <moneromooo> That is funny in a sad way. We want our exchnge to be well regulated for protecting our info, because it was regulated to want it in the first place -_-
19:55:38 <hpfr[m]> yeah, unfortunately it seems to be the only reasonable fiat on ramp at the moment
19:56:06 <mmxxx[m]> Bitstamp? Bisq? bitcoin.de?
19:57:16 <mmxxx[m]> and as much as I hate stellar there are some good on ramp options (depending upon which part of the world that you have bank accounts in)
19:57:26 <hpfr[m]> those don't have KYC? I wasn't referring to kraken I meant KYC exchanges in general
19:57:52 <hpfr[m]> is there an exchange you'd recommend over kraken for USD-BTC
19:57:59 <mmxxx[m]> bitstamp does
19:58:16 <mmxxx[m]> bitcoin.de does
19:58:29 <mmxxx[m]> bisq does not
19:58:31 <hpfr[m]> well I know about bisq
19:58:42 <mmxxx[m]> yeah, USD to BTC is a tricky one
19:58:44 <mmxxx[m]> thankfully I have better options
19:58:48 <mmxxx[m]> maybe Gemini
19:58:51 <mmxxx[m]> or Bisq
19:58:53 <hpfr[m]> like what
19:59:17 <mmxxx[m]> like I can use my non USD/non-American accounts :p
19:59:54 <hpfr[m]> oh yeah i guess other forms of fiat are probably easier
20:00:08 <yanmaani> hpfr[m]: What about OTC dealing then?
20:00:23 <yanmaani> Or just buying XBT thru Bisq
20:01:24 <hpfr[m]> yeah I've been meaning to try bisq, unfortunately it's not packaged for NixOS yet
20:01:38 <hpfr[m]> also in terms of liquidity it doesn't seem much better than localmonero et al
20:02:23 <hpfr[m]> and I don't think I'm moving funds at the level of OTC haha
20:03:06 <hpfr[m]> mmxxx: what's better about gemini
20:03:51 <mmxxx[m]> I didn't mean Gemini is better, I mean that it's an option for USD to BTC
20:04:07 <hpfr[m]> ok
20:04:07 <mmxxx[m]> the better option is to not have to use USD at all
20:04:12 <mmxxx[m]> the EUR market is superior
20:04:13 <hpfr[m]> right haha
20:04:14 <mmxxx[m]> or other currencies
20:04:28 <hpfr[m]> unfortunately not an option for me atm
20:07:26 <hpfr[m]> thanks for the help everyone, i'll probably try localmonero first then get a kraken account
20:46:36 <yanmaani> if you're that concerned, why use your real name at all?
21:12:30 <hpfr[m]> yanmaani: are you suggesting buying credentials off the deep web or something? You need to submit ID for KYC
21:40:55 <yanmaani> just photoshop one
21:41:11 <yanmaani> takes like ten minutes
21:41:23 <hpfr[m]> yanmaani: idk. Not trying to commit fraud
21:43:59 <nioc> what happens when they actually check what you sent them
21:54:31 <yanmaani> how are they going to check
21:55:05 <yanmaani> they send it to the cheapest bidder they can find on mturk, presumably
21:55:26 <yanmaani> they can only check that it looks like an ID, they don't have secret backdoors into the government databases
21:55:56 <TheJollyRoger> yanmaani: thanks for the link! I'm really liking this, this site contains a lot of great lessons that I can really draw from. I'm really glad to see I was moving in the right direction.
21:56:31 <TheJollyRoger> It looks like this business with the "slide in and lock" tile designs on the Billfodl and Cryptosteel are bad news in a really big disaster.
21:58:29 <moneromooo> There are companies that do those checks. They do have entries into various databases that are not quite public (ie, it takes money to get in). So your info goes to whatever contractor they chose. And you have no clue which.
21:59:48 <TheJollyRoger> Seems like a recurring failure mode with these is that the sheet metal rails heat up, warp, and then either burst their rivets or buckle so much that the tiles simply slide through the cracks.
22:05:41 <TheJollyRoger> Then "Poof goes your crypto!"
23:57:55 <yanmaani> TheJollyRoger: Some of them do work. But KISS applies generally; taking a piece of metal and engraving it lasts for thousands of years