00:04:58 <rehrar> moneromooo you want to go halfsies on this with me?
00:05:02 <rehrar> we can become famous
00:06:27 <moneromooo> For embedding "I am a licence virus. Please copy me in your software." ? No, thanks :)
00:45:40 <cannon-c[m]> ok online now, do I still need to push a update request for the patch to get Trezor to work with monero cli?
00:45:48 <cannon-c[m]> just needs the udev rules
00:46:15 <moneromooo> Oh, please do. Or it'll be forgot again :)
00:46:34 <cannon-c[m]> I mentioned this sometime in the past, time is a blur for me, last week maybe. Was not able to get trezor T to work with monero cli. Figured out just needed the udev rules
00:47:35 <cannon-c[m]> I dont think that would be part of monero wallet cli, wouldn't user need to add the proper Trezor udev rules to the appropriate directory for linux? I dont use windows so can only speak for linux users. So what would I update, wiki?
00:48:03 <moneromooo> README.md I guess. There are a small list of workaround/tips for various hw already.
00:48:06 <selsta> https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/11353/how-do-i-generate-a-trezor-monero-wallet-with-the-cli-monero-wallet-cli
00:48:09 <selsta> best to add it there
00:48:19 <selsta> I can do it tomorrow
00:48:28 <cannon-c[m]> ok, I dont really want to create an account just for this one thing
00:48:48 <cannon-c[m]> but if someone wants to add it and no trouble I can give the details
00:49:06 <cannon-c[m]> I spent an entire day trying to get trezor and monero wallet to work
00:49:13 <cannon-c[m]> This would save someone time
00:49:29 <cannon-c[m]> well, most of a day
00:49:55 <selsta> I will make sure that it gets added to the guides
00:50:23 <selsta> I think README.md is not the right place as it does not contain any Trezor specific information
00:50:52 <cannon-c[m]> Thank you very much.
00:51:02 <cannon-c[m]> I'll type up a very short simple TL;DR
00:52:43 <cannon-c[m]> This has the information of what needs to be done for monero wallet to recgonize Trezor on linux systems. https://wiki.trezor.io/Udev_rules
00:52:43 <cannon-c[m]> Neeed to copy a file to a directory.
00:53:27 <selsta> yep thank you
00:53:41 <cannon-c[m]> And for security I suggest to also mention to set the file to the correct file permissions.
00:53:41 <cannon-c[m]> chmod 644 /etc/udev/rules.d/51-trezor.rules
00:55:17 <cannon-c[m]> or maybe chmod 544 for the paranoid
00:55:56 <cannon-c[m]> 644 should be fine security wise I think for permissions on that .rules file
00:56:23 <cannon-c[m]> I think I'll reach out to maintaner of wiki.trezor.io to see if they can include chmod 644 step
00:56:58 <cannon-c[m]> wow my brain is tired,
00:56:58 <cannon-c[m]> my math off
00:57:31 <cannon-c[m]> maybe chmod 544 might be better
00:57:32 <cannon-c[m]> I'd suggest chmod 544
00:59:39 <cannon-c[m]> but 644 is fine assuming that the file owner is root
01:01:37 <cannon-c[m]> sorry, last message on this
01:01:37 <cannon-c[m]> chmod 644 is what is wanted assuming the owner of that file is root,
01:01:37 <cannon-c[m]> else chmod 444
04:45:03 <qasaur> Hello, I have a fairly quick and basic question: is there any mechanism in Monero to keep tx fees low or what is the realistic peak that tx fees can reach assuming major network saturation?
04:54:53 <nioc> qasaur: are you aware that Monero has dynamic block size?
04:55:10 <nioc> If there are more txs then the default block size then In order to increase the block size the fees increase
04:55:28 <nioc> If the level of txs remains higher than the default blocksize and at about the same level that increased the block size in the first place then the avg tx fee actually decreases compared to what it was at the default block size
04:55:58 <qasaur> nioc: Ah I see, cool, so I assume block contention is not as big of an issue as it is with BTC?
04:56:07 <nioc> there is more to it than that but you did say quick and easy :)
04:56:14 <nioc> correct
04:56:50 <qasaur> I see, interesting..
04:58:46 <nioc> there are safeguards in place that prevent ramping up to very large blocks
05:06:36 <nioc> qasaur the dynamic formula will also reduce the blocksize if needed, default without fee penalties is 300kB
05:08:04 <qasaur> nioc: is there a fixed fee per byte?
05:08:30 <qasaur> well, not fixed of course, but I assume it tends to some figure on average
05:13:52 <nioc> the fee goes down as the mining reward goes down and that happens every block by a very small amount
05:14:33 <nioc> currently it's,  Fee per byte: 0.000000012765
05:14:41 <nioc> yes 12 decimals
05:15:23 <nioc> the usual tx size is 2.54kB
05:15:52 <nioc> work is ongoing to reduce tx size
05:17:12 <nioc> as well as improve privacy, confidentiality or whatever is the best description :)
05:17:23 <qasaur> nioc: I see, have there been any estimations as to what the future tx size may look like?
05:18:05 <nioc> there is something relatively easy to do that will reduce txs by ~25%
05:18:42 <nioc> if chosen it probably will be done by end of year
05:19:13 <nioc> but many things are being looked at and everything is a trade off
05:20:50 <nioc> there seems to be no way around confidential txs being bigger than transparent ones
05:21:29 <qasaur> Cool - I've been quite deep into development for NANO lately but I feel the protocol lacks a sufficient level of privacy, and XMR seems to do the job perfectly.
05:21:45 <nioc> but with constantly improving tech that should not be much of an issue
05:22:30 <nioc> perfectly I don't know but the best there is by a good margin then yes
05:23:03 <nioc> ofc it all depends on your threat model
05:24:28 <qasaur> If any transparent blockchain ever gains mass adoption it is just going to be a matter of time before a btcaccountsearch site pops up that is a bit more advanced and user-friendly than Blockinfo today
05:24:40 <qasaur> not great for the fungibility aspect of money imo
05:25:09 <qasaur> blockchain.info*
05:25:35 <nioc> the US Fed chair this week said that btc might be good for China but not the US  :)
05:26:49 <nioc> there are blockchain analysis companies that can get quite a lot of info from btc
05:27:17 <qasaur> Yes, and not only BTC AFAIK
05:28:27 <nioc> they can get info about monero like how much it is used on dnm, however accurate that is
05:29:12 <qasaur> How can they gather that information if the Monero network is opaque?
05:29:17 <nioc> but overall not that much I would imagine
05:30:02 <nioc> network traffic is not opaque
05:30:12 <nioc> that is also being worked on
05:31:22 <nioc> there is some recent code that is not yet implemented and other things in this area that are being developed
05:31:39 <nioc> as they say, information wants to be free
05:32:50 <qasaur> I think this chain analysis thing rubs me the wrong way
05:33:01 <qasaur> that these companies are doing, that is
05:33:11 <qasaur> so glad to hear that the XMR devs are trying to make it more difficult
05:36:05 <nioc> time for sleep
05:36:11 <nioc> gn qasaur
05:37:40 <qasaur> gn, nice chatting nioc
09:10:11 <mfoolb> let's say I connect via clearnet to one of the most used exchange (KYC on) and send some XMR to a subaddress of a wallet I created from a box via clearnet.. How can anyone correlate me to that transaction? Let's say I didn't use any VPN/Proxy.. only way is to find IP address (if it's the same) in both exachange log and monero public nodes?
09:18:06 <sech1> mfoolb monero public nodes don't know your wallet's address
09:18:17 <sech1> they only see your IP address
09:18:39 <mfoolb> yes.. that's way only log comparison is based on IP address, right
09:18:44 <mfoolb> ?
09:19:28 <sech1> yes, your IP address is a huge data leak in this case
09:19:57 <mfoolb> well the real leak is the KYC procedure at the exchange..
09:20:07 <mfoolb> because IP can be easily obfuscated..
09:20:25 <sech1> use non-kyc exchanges
09:21:13 <mfoolb> nonkyc onion enabled exchanges.. but do you think they'll remain active?
09:21:51 <mfoolb> IIRC xmr.to shut down their onion access for example..
09:38:31 <azy> you can access xmr.to from tor still, there's even a no javascript verison of the website
09:39:17 <mfoolb> azy: "One of the recent changes you may have noticed was that we no longer offer a TOR onion address,"
09:39:28 <mfoolb> https://xmr.to/blog
09:39:45 <azy> yeah
09:40:28 <azy> i think tor's better used for clearnet websites anyway, hidden services was an afterthought and better done through garlic routing/i2p
09:41:53 <charolastra> so they are a honey pot or what's the reason to disable the hidden service?
09:45:22 <azy> lol
09:45:24 <azy> "after receiving legal advice."
09:46:19 <azy> there's no advantage to connecting to the .onion rather than the .to, as far as i know
09:46:41 <azy> with tor browser that is
09:48:36 <azy> the upsides of hosting a .onion are... ?
09:49:01 <charolastra> noone knows that you connect at all
09:49:59 <charolastra> plain domains/ips can be blocked. for onion the whole tor would have to be blocked
09:50:49 <azy> tor isnt blocked on xmr.to, they just dont run a hidden service
09:51:10 <azy> which wouldnt even be hidden in the first place, since xmr.to is a legitimate company with a clearnet website
09:51:27 <mfoolb> charolastra: you mean that using tor to connect to non onion address permits to identiy the tor exit node and then evaluate a way to go deep on source recognition?
09:51:29 <charolastra> so is facebook :P
09:52:00 <charolastra> yes, the exit node knows your traffic. you have to assume that they are hosted by NSA/CIA
09:52:58 <charolastra> they also have access to the CA root certificates
12:31:58 <mmxxx[m]> <azy "i think tor's better used for cl"> I2p is barely usable
12:39:05 <azy> agree
12:40:03 <charolastra> and not many know about it
12:41:20 <azy> im not suggesting it should be used, im saying tor's intended for accessing clearnet and hidden services were an afterthought
12:41:26 <azy> therefore no onion address is not a big deal
12:41:31 <SoiMatter> Is there someone from Cake Wallet here?
12:42:52 <charolastra> they already had one. i don't get why they disabled it as it 'costs' nothing to have one enabled
12:43:15 <azy> not much gained for having one, and legally it looks bad
12:43:55 <charolastra> why does it look bad?
13:02:40 <SoiMatter> Is there a Cake Wallet person here?
13:05:58 <azy> because it looks like he's laundering onion xmr, which is illegal monies most likely
13:08:37 <Inge-> some sites deny you if you come via tor
13:08:47 <Inge-> does onion xmr smell?
13:11:41 <selsta> azy: he?
13:11:54 <azy> did i misgender somebody
13:12:35 <selsta> no
13:12:40 <selsta> who are you talking about
13:13:01 <selsta> trying to follow the conversation
13:13:02 <azy> xmr.to
13:13:07 <selsta> ah
13:13:41 <selsta> I guess they took it down as it offers a way to bypass their own region restrictions.
13:19:39 <Inge-> i.e. they can't tell where someone comes from
13:19:56 <Inge-> with tor/vpn at least tehy have some small plausible deniability
13:48:31 <charolastra> doesn't monero itself automaticly smell like money laundering?
13:49:54 <hyc> does cash?
13:50:55 <mfoolb> well actually cash does smell like it
13:51:33 <azy> yeah cash does too
13:51:58 <azy> and for good reason, nobody who accepts cash pays all their tax if they can get away with it
14:00:21 <tryphe> even if monero isn't money laundering (it has a way to reveal source and destination, unlike fiat), banks and corporations will still claim it's money laundering because it competes with their more opaque money laundering scheme
14:16:54 <azy> i swear i get 'this guys a drug dealer' looks from the grocery checkout girls when i hand them cash
14:17:04 <azy> maybe theyre just mad they have to do extra work
14:33:09 <mmxxx[m]> Kek
14:33:51 <mmxxx[m]> Are you a drug dealer azy ?
14:34:48 <azy> yeah thats why i pay cash
14:37:43 <Inge-> !!
16:25:35 <gingeropolous> jesus monkey butt. seagate makes a 16 TB HDD
16:30:27 <hyc> their new HAMR drive? yeah
16:32:10 <hyc> There's a Micron 8TB SSD for $900
16:32:22 <hyc> Seagate 8TB HDD for $140
16:32:45 <hyc> so the price diff is around 6:1
16:33:15 <Epsilon[m]> There's a new 80tb hdd using HAMR in the works don't know the name though
16:33:59 <hyc> higher perf Seagate Barracuda 8TB HDD $280, so the price diff is even smaller
16:34:10 <hyc> I would just keep buying SSDs...
16:36:13 <hyc> at those capacities, a lower perf drive would be unlivable. would take a week to scan the entire drive at 6GB/s
16:36:17 <hyc> 6Gbit/sec
16:36:38 <hyc> 185 hours
16:38:48 <hyc> might've miscalculated by a factor of 10 or so there
16:39:47 <hyc> doh only 1.85 hours :P
16:41:27 <gingeropolous> whats hamr? guess i'll google oit
16:41:43 <Epsilon[m]> Heat assisted magnetic something I think
16:41:56 <gingeropolous> heat assisted!
16:42:01 <moneromooo> Half Assed ?
16:42:02 <gingeropolous> wowzers
16:45:33 <gingeropolous> 100 TB drives by 2030
16:46:31 <Epsilon[m]> Dang wonder how slow it'll be to fill that up completly
16:50:05 <SR71_miner> forget HDD, NVMe is the future look a 30 TB SSD already a year on market --> https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/global.semi/file/resource/2019/05/Product_Brief_Smasung_PM1643_SAS_SSD_1805.pdf
16:51:09 <sech1> So blockchain bloat is not an issue then?
16:51:59 <gingeropolous> naw its still all about them internets
16:52:23 <gingeropolous> dont matter how much you can store if you can't transfer it and process it
16:52:26 <sech1> who doesn't have 100 Mbit nowadays?
16:52:59 <gingeropolous> we already got peeps that do blockchain important for some reason
16:53:03 <sech1> people watch 4k porn and complain about 80 GB blockchain?
16:53:30 <gingeropolous> 4k porn doesn't have a read/write/process orgy on your HDD though
16:54:09 <SR71_miner> on old fibre cables you can multiply bandwith no prob
16:54:39 <gingeropolous> apparently australia is a place you would think has good internets, but it doesn't
16:54:44 <SR71_miner> in a few years sas and sata dies
16:54:58 <SR71_miner> server will use edsff
16:55:05 <SR71_miner> clients m.2
16:55:13 <SR71_miner> all pcie
16:56:18 <gingeropolous> im trying to decide what to get for an "upload your corrupt data.mdb here" service
16:56:53 <gingeropolous> i think I can get away with a spinny
16:59:09 <hyc> sure, you don't need high random IOPS just to upload complete files
16:59:41 <hyc> but yeah, bandwidth is the biggest concern still. A lot of the world still has no access to wired internet.
16:59:51 <gingeropolous> question is, how much space, and how long should they sit on the server
16:59:59 <hyc> most deployed mobile networks deliver only 1/10th or less of their spec'd bandwidth
17:00:01 <gingeropolous> and the duration effects how big i need
17:00:32 <hyc> I'd guessm only leave space for 1 unpruned DB at a time, or a couple of pruned
17:01:04 <gingeropolous> hrm
17:01:36 <hyc> they shouldn't need to sit around for long. if you tell me there's one to inspect I'll grab it ASAP
17:03:06 <gingeropolous> ok. thanks for the input. part of me just wants a monsterous HDD :)
17:04:03 <hyc> oh well then knock yerself out ;)
17:06:17 <kinghat> wonder if the new satellite internets will drive the cost of BW down
17:06:39 <kinghat> i dont really know the specs of that new satellite stuffs though. latency/speed/etc..
17:07:37 <hyc> satellites are pretty resource-constrained
17:07:57 <hyc> the faster the transmitter, the more power needed
17:08:28 <kinghat> or more transmitters?
17:08:47 <kinghat> satellites*
17:28:11 <hyc> more transmitters == more mass
17:28:24 <hyc> everything you add makes the satellite more expensive
17:28:47 <kinghat> ya i thought thats why they were going small but a bunch of them?
17:29:19 <kinghat> is the goal of starlink and the like not mass adoption? or are they trying to serve a niche?
17:29:53 <hyc> no idea
17:30:18 <hyc> mass adoption seems iffy. capacity is far more limited than terrestrial networks
17:30:44 <hyc> would make most sense to target them at currently underserved populations only.
17:32:34 <kinghat> thats what i thought as well. though it looks like north american launch. unless they are targeting like RVs/mobile homes/rural stuffs 🤷‍♂️
17:57:33 <gingeropolous> hrm. it would be dope if the file uploader made a hash of the file before upload, sent the hash.... well i guess the integrity of the file should be checked by whatever uploader im using
18:00:25 <gingeropolous> github.com/tus might be what i use
18:00:42 <gingeropolous> i found a random 500 gb SSD. might start with that
20:04:34 <kinghat> hey hyc whats your take on the systemd-homed stuffs?
20:12:09 <moneromooo> If you want to make an OS, be courteous enough to make your own, not mug another one.
20:13:58 <moneromooo> (I have no opinion on that particular part though)
20:31:43 <kinghat> i mean i like the idea of encrypting the home dir on suspend/lock/logout
20:59:10 <hyc> kinghat: I've only looked it over briefly, camw away with some negative impressions re: large scale user manageability