00:26:32 <ianthius> does anyone know who owned or maintained tippero?
00:30:27 <ianthius> fort3hlulz: doesn't it also improve the ability to detect that transactions are being included in coinjoins?
00:31:08 <ianthius> sorry, i meant obfuscate that transactions are related to coinjoins
00:31:42 <moneromooo> I programmed it, pony ran it.
00:34:02 <ianthius> fluffypony: any idea if the balances are still around? not overly concerned perhaps it hasn't been up to date in a while..
00:58:27 <fort3hlulz> ianthius in its current proposed form, it does not help CoinJoins at all
00:58:35 <fort3hlulz> as far as privacy is concerned
00:58:44 <fort3hlulz> They reduce cost slightly, but they do that for all transactions
01:02:50 <nioc> wonder if tippero was ever updated since unencrypted PIDs were deprecated
01:03:22 <nioc> it a couple of years early for fluffy's exit scam
01:03:40 <moneromooo> No.
02:35:59 <ianthius> fort3hlulz: i am no expert, however, don't coinjoins use multisig and i am pretty sure these improvements make multi-sigs look like other transactions..?
02:36:26 <ianthius> i'm not saying it's a dramatic improvement, but it does help somewhat?
02:37:34 <nioc> opt in privacy does not work well
02:37:54 <ianthius> nioc: agreed
05:32:48 <kinghat> https://medium.com/perlin-network/noise-v1-1-2-fearless-decentralized-p2p-networking-in-go-bf3afdd77230
08:13:59 <Inge-> fort3hlulz and others re bitcoin and privacy - this is a decent thread: https://twitter.com/pwuille/status/1221507397052555265
08:15:00 <Inge-> but also https://twitter.com/pwuille/status/1223321995539972097  and https://twitter.com/pwuille/status/1223321565313425408
08:15:51 <Inge-> ianthius:  ^ No coinjoin help, but some other areas it does help... And the coinjoin obfuscation everyone thought was going to be in this bip can be added later...
14:30:28 <fort3hlulz> Thanks Inge!
19:36:53 <cannon-c[m]> The one concern I have with Monero is scalability, Monero transactions are HUGE in size compared to the tiny size of bitcoin transactions. When Monero really takes off how can it maintain decentralization with a monsterous size blockchain? With no limits on block size it could easily go into exponential block size growth
19:37:00 <cannon-c[m]> harming ability for people to run nodes.
19:37:31 <cannon-c[m]> IMHO in the current state xmr is much better at privacy. But btc much better at scalability. For on chain transactions.
19:38:25 <cannon-c[m]> lightning network looks really nice. Any thoughts on privacy of lightning vs. Monero if the btc blockchain is used for settlements and store of value, but lightning used for most transactions?
19:38:58 <cannon-c[m]> LN might be the solution for scalability with privacy at the same time.
19:39:53 <cannon-c[m]> I guess my two questions are
19:39:54 <cannon-c[m]> 1. Any thoughts on privacy of lightning vs. Monero if the btc blockchain is used for settlements and store of value, but lightning used for most transactions?
19:39:54 <cannon-c[m]> 2. Are there plans on addressing the concern of scalability on the xmr blockchian?
19:40:41 <rottensox> cannon-c[m]: Any of the parties involved in a LN channel can close it at any given time and run off with the funds, for starters. Further, while it can be a win in privacy territory, balances and addresses are still visible on mainnet. Timing attacks and such can be plausible still. Not to mention 2nd layer solutions just put yet another barrier to mass adoption aka use in mainstream cases. Read: simplicity.
19:40:53 <cannon-c[m]> I know thre are many ideas on how to achieve scalability on xmr, or privacy on bitcoin. But I am talking about the current state and what is existing now
19:41:34 <rottensox> That is also missing the point that LN channels have balance constraints, to the best of my knowledge. Unless you couple with a huge channel such as bitrefill or the like, you cannot transact more than few hundred bucks in there.
19:41:47 <moneromooo> I doubt "Any of the parties involved in a LN channel can close it at any given time and run off with the funds". Nobody in their right mind you have OK'd that (or is it a bug that got found recently ?)
19:42:18 <cannon-c[m]> "Any of the parties involved in a LN channel can close it at any given time and run off with the funds, for starters."
19:42:18 <cannon-c[m]> a party can close a chan but cannot steal funds not sure what you mean
19:42:39 <cannon-c[m]> LN I'd say is actually very easy to use right now. Many user friendly wallets that use LN are user firendly
19:42:41 <rottensox> I may got have gotten that wrong then. .shrug
19:42:41 <rottensox> I thought anybody could close it. For instance, Zucco was on Twitter posting how someone ran away with his second iteration of the LNTrustChain. moneromooo
19:42:55 <rottensox> If that is not the right assumption, how did they run away with 1.2M satoshis then?
19:43:14 <moneromooo> I would not trust anything that guy says. From the little I've seen, he's just some asshole troll.
19:43:26 <rottensox> Same. :-)
19:44:01 <cannon-c[m]> I have to step away. But I am really interesting in hearing thoughts on my two questions. I will catch up on responses when I return in about 45 minutes
19:44:07 <moneromooo> "Many user friendly wallets that use LN are user firendly" is pretty circular :P
19:44:53 <cannon-c[m]> and I am not biased on any coin. I am looking at things from a technical perspective. I want whatever is best for both scalability (decentralization) and privacy
19:44:59 <moneromooo> Anyway, no recent better scaling on monero now. CLSAG will hopefully be added next fork, but it's only a 25% size decrease or the like.
19:45:32 <cannon-c[m]> <moneromooo ""Many user friendly wallets that"> lol I mean that many wallets are user friendly and also support LN
19:46:30 <moneromooo> Grin seems pretty good on that front. Not great on privacy, though better than Bitcoin (OK, not hard).
19:46:35 <cannon-c[m]> anyways thank you for any input added, I will be back later
19:48:02 <moneromooo> I know you specifically asked for current stuff, but really what I'm hoping for is someone clever to come up with a lightning network style thing for monero ^_^
19:48:50 <rottensox> moneromooo just in case you feel like taking a peek... https://twitter.com/giacomozucco/status/1220741082381766658
19:49:30 <moneromooo> Twatter started blocking either tor or no js or whatever a few days ago, sorry.
19:50:05 <moneromooo> I don't know much about LN anyway, so wouldn't do much with it. Thanks for getting the source though.
20:04:45 <Mochi101> Is Monero scaling really that bad?
20:14:54 <selsta> depends on how you define scaling
20:15:05 <selsta> Monero has larger tx sizes
20:15:21 <selsta> but also a dynamic blocksize which will help with scaling
20:16:16 <moneromooo> 2.5 kB txes vs... I think like... 250 bytes ?
20:16:32 <moneromooo> Goes to 2 kB with CLSAG.
20:17:24 <Mochi101> Hmmm, I see.
20:18:52 <Mochi101> and this is a problem because of the total size of the blockchain?
20:19:21 <cannon-c[m]> "but also a dynamic blocksize which will help with scaling"
20:19:21 <cannon-c[m]> Wouldn't a dynamic blocksize which is the same as an unlimited lblocksize cause the blockchain growth to be so massive that running nodes is unfeasable due to bandwidth and sync time?
20:19:42 <Mochi101> You mean like Ethereum?
20:20:50 <moneromooo> Wouldn't the ability to buy as much food as you want cause you to balloon until you burst ?
20:20:58 <cannon-c[m]> If it is a 1tb growth per year that would make it very very centralized if only few can run a node. I expect that if monero takes off massively blockchain size would rise exponentially. And Mochi101 I lack experience with ethereum. If eth is like that I wonder if that has caused any issues with people being able to run a node
20:21:08 <cannon-c[m]> scaling can mean not only how many transactions it can handle but also how many nodes can run
20:21:11 <moneromooo> Clearly, that's not the only thing to consider.
20:21:53 <cannon-c[m]> maybe I'm wrong. Maybe scalability is only how many tx it can handle. But we need to make sure scalability does not harm decentralization
20:22:54 <Mochi101> Over time the cost of connected storage also goes down though cannon-c[m]
20:23:27 <cannon-c[m]> maybe on storage but sync time and bandwidth still an issue
20:23:54 <cannon-c[m]> most people do not have 1 gigabit per second connections and 20ghz cpus
20:24:13 <cannon-c[m]> Intel and AMD cpu are insecure. ARM cpu is the way to go.
20:24:14 <Mochi101> Who has 20ghz cpus now?
20:24:51 <cannon-c[m]> and most users use I2P or Tor with crypto. Which drastically slows down network speed
20:24:59 <Mochi101> Privacy in a digital world is expensive.
20:25:18 <Mochi101> You can have free, like Facebook though.
20:25:35 <cannon-c[m]> the secure computers are not as powerful as the computers of which software spec requirements is designed around
20:26:23 <cannon-c[m]> Now I am a fan of monero. I just want to see scalability addressed. Been trying to come up with ideas
20:26:31 <cannon-c[m]>  * Now I am a fan of monero. I just want to see scalability concerns addressed. Been trying to come up with ideas
20:26:58 <cannon-c[m]> maybe lightning on monero would be very ideal if that is possible or something similar to LN.
20:27:10 <cannon-c[m]> network of payment channels
20:27:11 <ErCiccione[m]> cannon-c: The issue of scalability is known, just not really prrioritary] IMO
20:27:37 <moneromooo> If you have some ability, feel free to talk with the MRL people about what you could do to help bring that closer to reality.
20:28:16 <moneromooo> You might want to read up on DLSAGs, a paper which sets out some things about this.
20:28:31 <Mochi101> cannon-c[m], node pruning was huge for Monero. Probably the best thing to come after Bulletproofs.
20:28:57 <Mochi101> So if space is a concern, you can run a pruned node.
20:29:01 <cannon-c[m]> either way competition is good
20:29:16 <cannon-c[m]> btc great in some areas but lacks in others, xmr likewise. Seems like focus is priority of scalability vs. privacy
20:29:50 <cannon-c[m]> which ever one can excell in both first will be better I think
20:30:09 <cannon-c[m]> other than scalability and privacy though, xmr does have mining decentralization going for it
20:30:27 <Mochi101> power versus speed
20:30:55 <cannon-c[m]> and is not afraid to do innovative improvements via hardforks. btc I think is too conservative in upgrades
20:30:59 <cannon-c[m]> and slow to upgrade
20:32:00 <moneromooo> Thing is, if you're not private, whether you scale or not is irrelevant. Or should be ideally. Which it is not, because people suck in aggregate
20:32:35 <moneromooo> So we might end up saddled with some panoptocoin just because people don't care enough.
20:32:58 * moneromooo steps out before the rant really starts
20:33:19 <cannon-c[m]> btc does have privacy if put in the effort and not make certain mistakes, but it does require effort and user education. Monero is excellent and king at privacy by default for everyone
20:34:05 <selsta> right you only have to solo mine a block :D
20:34:41 <ErCiccione[m]> or steal somebody else's btc
20:34:48 <moneromooo> Yeah, like I'm a master kung fi fighter if I get very lucky. Doesn't help.
20:34:51 <cannon-c[m]> stealing = not cool
20:35:09 <cannon-c[m]> If I did my math right before randomx mining was not profitable or any ROI. I'm not sure why anyone even minded. With randomx is mining actually have any ROI?
20:35:13 <ErCiccione[m]> i was joking cannon-c ;)
20:35:48 <cannon-c[m]> "stolen" = plausible deniability
20:36:02 <moneromooo> In this space you don't have to steal. Just bullshit, hype vapourware, and people will fall over themselves throwing their money at you.
20:36:19 <selsta> Mining is profitable with the right CPU. But slow ROI.
20:37:14 <cannon-c[m]> maybe I should setup a sattelite in space that has zero gravity where perpetual motion works. Mine then beam encrypted hashes back down to Earth. Thta might earn ROI
20:37:26 <cannon-c[m]> perpetual motion = free energy
20:37:41 <cannon-c[m]> (not serious)
20:42:31 <Mochi101> hmm... moneromooo speaks non-American English.
20:47:59 <azy> or he wants you to think that
20:48:52 <Mochi101> Nah.. nobody uses a u like that unless they speak British English.
20:49:23 <moneromooo> Typo.
20:49:28 <moneromooo> er, typou ?
20:49:35 <Mochi101> :D
20:57:27 <azy> im not buying it
20:57:42 <azy> moneromooo, confirmed brit
20:59:29 <Mochi101> Could be Australian, New Zealander or Canadian as well.
21:00:50 <moneromooo> Or a space cow from... oops, almost gave it away.
21:17:00 <Mochi101> Space cow steaks... hmmm