14:40:40 <ErCiccione[m]> The roadmap needs another refactor. I thought last refactor would have been enough, but instead solved only part of the problem. After hours of testing i came to the conclusions that the only way to have everything working as expected is to remove all loops and map every single entry singularely.
14:42:46 <ErCiccione[m]> That's gonna make the html page of the roadmap repetitive and slightly bigger, but i couldn't find another solution that it's not going to be a pain in the ass lately. I tried looping through the yaml file in every possible way i know of, but for one reason or another, there was always something missing.
14:43:44 <sarang> Would it be that much larger of a page that it would make a difference?
14:45:13 <ErCiccione[m]> In terms of weight? No,
14:45:40 <sarang> Moreso in maintainability, you mean?
14:47:15 <ErCiccione[m]> It's more annoying to refactor it, after that i don't think it will be harder to maintain
14:48:22 <ErCiccione[m]> actually, might be even easier. Just uglier
14:49:02 <sarang> Seems reasonable (he said confidently =p)
14:50:04 <sarang> Unrelated: I noticed what appears to be analytics code referring back to the getmonero domain... what's it used for?
14:50:17 <sarang> and does visitor data ever leave that server?
14:50:34 <ErCiccione[m]> yeah, thinking about it it will be definitely easier for non-coders, because they will have to use the simpler yaml structure. Coders will be disgusted by the absence of loops :P
14:51:04 <ErCiccione[m]> sarang: That's matomo. Self hosted analytics service.
14:51:21 <sarang> Do the analytics actually get used for anything?
14:51:23 <ErCiccione[m]> right now it's not functional, pigeons will take care of having it up again
14:51:32 <sarang> Is there a compelling reason to keep it?
14:52:06 <ErCiccione[m]> No, when i asked the credentials i was told it's broken.
14:52:15 <ErCiccione[m]>  reason to keep it? <- it would be very useful for me
14:52:32 <sarang> How much data would you get on visitors?
14:52:33 <ErCiccione[m]> so i can make more aimed changes according to what people see and what language they speak
14:52:56 <sarang> (beyond what server logs could provide anyway)
14:53:24 <ErCiccione[m]> I have no idea. I never used it before and since it's down i didn't have a chance to actually take a look at it. I think rehrar knows more about it
14:53:50 <ErCiccione[m]> https://matomo.org/
14:54:28 <sarang> "visitor profiles" o_0
14:54:29 <sarang> no thanks
14:54:47 <sarang> It could send a positive message to just get rid of analytics
14:56:35 <ErCiccione[m]> I have no idea of what that includes, but i assumed that since it was initially added, it's not privacy-invasive
14:57:32 <ErCiccione[m]> honestly i think would be very useful to have some analytics. Right now i make changes according to what i think it's best, but would be useful to make aimed changes
14:57:49 <selsta> there are server log analytics, we don’t need extra js analytics
14:59:10 <sarang> IMO the onus would be on the site developers to justify why the usefulness would outweight the risks to visitors
14:59:49 <sarang> if Matomo can do things like profile visitors, that means visitors are trusting the limited number of people who have access to that data not to misuse it
15:00:03 <sarang> (and yes, they already trust the server operators not to misuse data they have access to)
15:03:17 <selsta> https://matomo.org/log-analytics/
15:03:46 <selsta> looks like matomo would even support it
15:04:03 <ErCiccione[m]> i found the discussion about replacing google analytics (yes, we used that before) with matomo: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues/558
15:04:15 <sarang> I do remember it was discussed a while back
15:06:20 <sarang> I don't want to make assumptions about what benefits such information could provide for development, but has the lack of available analytics harmed the development process so far?
15:06:32 <ErCiccione[m]> Personally i don't care of what we use. I would just find very useful to have the language spoken by the visitors and the pages they visit. Whatever give us those information and doesn't invade people's privacy is good for me.
15:07:27 <ErCiccione[m]> sarang: the website hasn't seen dedicated development in a long time, so i think nobody cared
15:08:14 <sarang> fair enough
15:08:16 <ErCiccione[m]> personally, the lack of any kind of analytics feels like doing things blindly, without a feedback.
15:12:03 <selsta> How do you find out the language spoken by the visitor?
15:12:18 <selsta> IP address, what language they select on the website, some JS magic?
15:15:34 <ErCiccione[m]> i guess getting the language of the browser
15:16:05 <ErCiccione[m]> at least that's how google analytics does IIRC, but i thing there are multiple ways to achieve that
15:16:43 <sarang> Is it disclosed anywhere on the site that analytics data are collected via JS?
15:17:12 <sarang> If not, it should be, with a link to the documentation of the product used
15:18:31 <ErCiccione[m]> It should be. We have a privacy policy, but i don't know if it was edited after matomo was implemented
15:19:03 <sarang> Perhaps it should more upfront than in a privacy policy that nobody reads
15:19:23 <ErCiccione[m]> http://127.0.0.1:4000/legal/
15:19:36 <sarang> e.g. "This site uses [Matomo](link to technical details) to collect analytics data on your use of the site"
15:19:46 <ErCiccione[m]> getmonero.org/legal
15:19:51 <ErCiccione[m]> at the bottom
15:20:30 <sarang> Oh nice, it does link to it
15:21:17 <sarang> IIRC Matomo honors Do Not Track requests... if it's decided to keep it, might be worth noting this
15:21:28 <sarang> (of course, users can't verify that the request is honored...)
15:24:10 <selsta> I just think no JS tracking would fit the project.
15:24:19 <sarang> I dunno... I still dislike the idea of using JS analytics in general, even though some data is still collected via standard server logs
15:24:57 <sarang> And telling people "disable JS if you don't want to be tracked" seems like advice that shouldn't be needed for a privacy-focused site
15:25:14 <selsta> yep, looks like tor project also uses no js tracking
15:25:31 <sarang> If it's necessary to get some information via server logs, why not do that and then publicly post the data that's used?
15:25:42 <sarang> Thereby being transparent about it
15:25:57 <sarang> (obviously not identifying information in any way)
15:32:37 <ErCiccione[m]> RIght now matomo is not working, so i think it's the best time to decide what to do about it. We could discuss in the next dev meeting, to gather some more opinions
15:33:25 * ErCiccione[m] afk