18:00:15 sarang: https://twitter.com/zooko/status/1347569341781344257 18:12:26 Seems like a pre-announcement only... ZIP 224 isn't out yet? 18:13:05 Yep: https://twitter.com/jswihart/status/1347578273207750656 18:20:21 There are a few things at play here. There's the Halo 2 stuff, and then there's the Zcash-protocol-using-Halo-2 stuff 18:20:36 AFAIK the Halo 2 code is available in progress, but the protocol stuff is not 18:20:39 (correct me if wrong) 18:26:52 i think that's the situation 18:30:01 Unfortunately a lot of the design decisions leading to the Halo 2 commits seems to be taking place internally onl 18:30:02 *only 18:30:13 A lot of the commits and PRs don't really contain much design detail at all 18:30:31 Which is unfortunate, given how the design choices for earlier work tended to be very open and took place on GitHub 18:31:24 Perhaps this is changing, or isn't the case anymore? 19:35:42 Eh, watching the Zcash community try to eat the ECC over the last year, they're perpetually in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation 19:35:47 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/vvSPacpn/image.png 19:38:27 I don't know if that's really the case 19:38:44 Discussing ideas early via GitHub worked really well for them 19:39:27 Marketing ideas early before results seems unwise, but that's different 19:39:55 discussing ideas openly for monero has never led to problems 19:40:09 idk what you gain from close doors 19:40:16 Competitive advantage 19:41:20 are there any other competitors in that space than ... Monero? 19:41:32 I guess so, but it's a bit contradictory to the decentralization ethos... what's the point of a decentralized consensus if it has no hope of existing without centralized decision making 19:43:25 and the code gets open sourced in the end anyway lol 19:43:32 I think that key parts of open source development are releasing code, encouraging testing, feedback period before merging changes into the codebase, etc. 19:43:32 I don't think that every project requires (or even benefits from) input at every stage from every community member 19:44:00 Now that we have hte extremes out of the way, we have a much clearer view. 19:44:11 Or... do we... 19:44:54 Reading some of the response to their announcement, it seems that part of the issue is the appearance of setting timelines for the former (releasing, testing, merging) before the design and R&D is made available for review 19:45:10 * Isthmus nods 19:45:13 typica corporate management approach 19:45:31 And that this change from then (design publicly, with a lot of great input) to now (design internally) just sorta... happened, with no apparent community input 19:45:54 I think practically speaking closed doors can reduce the noise for those engaged in R&D, but also increases uncertainty around where the project is going for those not 'in the know', and reduces the amount of time users get to really assess new changes 19:46:11 Could reduce noise, but it seemed to be very much a net positive for them in the past 19:46:19 and the number of smart brains that get to provide input 19:47:31 there's a time and a place, I think. when you're trying to figure out if something will work at all, you only need other developers' input 19:48:00 when you figure that out, and then need to figure out how to make it usable, then you get the users involved 19:48:24 Perhaps one additional issue is that their company is funded by that community, and I don't really recall seeing serious discussion about standards for open development and research discussed when the funding situations were being worked out 19:48:44 My perception is that the ECC mentality makes sense with the ECC/ZF split. 19:48:44 The Zcash Foundation works very openly with the community, providing a space in some ways analogous to MRL & -dev 19:48:44 The ECC is more of a self-contained team which makes it easier to go heads down and crush out a bunch of brilliant stuff like Halo 1 & 2 in rapid succession 19:48:51 Just my personal opinion/take 19:49:24 I suspect that if ECC had said "if you fund us again, we're going to start working internally more", there could have been a productive discussion about this in their community 19:49:31 but AFAIK that never really happened 19:49:59 I thought this was kind of understood with ZIP 1014 but that might have just been my reading into the conversations 19:50:04 (I guess my comment was a tangent. in either case, you still have th discussions in the open) 19:50:12 Isthmus: particular link? 19:50:18 I'd like to know if that was indeed the case 19:54:44 the split between privat corporation and public foundation like this just underscores that there's no actual open source development process there 19:55:20 seen it plenty of times before, with Sun and other corporate "open source" projects 19:55:31 that never engaged outside contributors, never accepted other contributions 19:55:47 @sarang Boatloads of tweets from late 2019 that I didn't bookmark, some forum discussion about the topic, but here's the ZIP itself https://zips.z.cash/zip-1014 19:55:47 Of course the ZIP speaks more to the structure than the spirit. 19:55:47 The text about the ECC/BP slice states "This slice will be used at the discretion of the Bootstrap Project for any purpose within its mandate to support financial privacy and the Zcash platform" and then the next section asks for disclosures only when research is NOT Zcash related 19:56:18 Also +1 hyc 20:04:02 At any rate, I think there are good lessons to be learned 20:05:20 But not so much to be learned about their fancy new protocol? 22:15:29 Inge-: it looks like they are starting to put some design notes on GitHub