04:39:10 zkao: If you have a refund TX created, you can put the funds into a multi-sig. Then, you can create TXs to transfer amounts, so you always have the highest value TX and refund. As long as you close the channel on time... 04:39:13 I believe, anyways 08:44:22 the problem is: how to have a signed refund consuming the multisig before having the multisig published? after initialization, i understand. but not how to initialize the protocol safely 11:12:20 the intuition for the simpler variant is, put the share of the signing key inside a verifiable timed commitment instead of the signature on the refund transaction. This way, the funding user learns the share of the signing key (of the PC) after some time T, and thereby create a refund transaction on the fly.