00:04:35 <atoc> UkoeHB_ I forgot to mention this previously, I think figures for the elliptic curve section would be a nice add. I always find elliptic curve cryptography is easier understood with visuals.
00:28:10 <UkoeHB_> thanks atoc, Ill put that on my list for v3
00:28:53 <atoc> cool (y)
06:57:21 <Inge-> My understanding is that it is currently no way to create multiple transactions in Monero where the second relies on the first existing, but pre-made so it can be broadcast at a later date. Is this something that could be possible / is even being looked at ? I vaguely remember seeing some talk about it in the past week or two in one of the monero channels
07:14:29 <UkoeHB_> It's technically possible but not practical or realistic. Your second tx takes as input references to output indices from the chain, but if those indices haven't even been determined yet it becomes quite hard to coordinate.
07:16:48 <UkoeHB_> Not to mention, all the ring decoys would be older than the real spend, so if you had some service making those tx and managed to fingerprint them, all the real spends would be identifiable.
09:14:25 <Inge-> and the way ring sigs work, means that you would need to select decoys at the time of creation of the second transaction I presume.
13:26:32 <UkoeHB_> Right
13:32:01 <Inge-> Ring signatures suck.
13:32:33 <zkao> then how would one build a refund claim transaction that must be signed before publishing a parent tx that creates the multisig output being spent in the refund claim?
13:38:13 <Inge-> You don't. I guess.
13:38:21 <Inge-> Which is a bummer.
14:56:36 <sarang> Hello all
14:56:46 <sarang> Hope everyone is doing well on this fine day
14:57:20 <sarang> I'll be working on some Triptych-2 math today, wooo
14:58:26 <midipoet> figure out how to multi-party compute covid away please.
14:59:06 <sarang> :(
16:44:39 <derpy_bridge> [discord] <Leo Cornelius [AIO]#9160>: Hey everyone, has anyone benchmarked moneros privacy TXO model against bitcoins and other coins that are not private?
16:45:05 <derpy_bridge> [discord] <Leo Cornelius [AIO]#9160>: eg does making transactions private using ring sigs or buillet proofs cause nodes to have to work harder/ longer to verify the txn
16:45:27 <jwinterm> yes
16:47:20 <moneromooo> Monero tx verification is much heavier than Bitcoin's (even after BPs).
16:47:39 <moneromooo> I don't have an actual number to brandish though.
17:22:45 <derpy_bridge> [discord] <Leo Cornelius [AIO]#9160>: ok, do you know of nay papers looking into i?
17:22:46 <derpy_bridge> [discord] <Leo Cornelius [AIO]#9160>: eg does making transactions private using ring sigs or buillet proofs cause nodes to have to work harder/ longer to verify the txtn
17:22:46 <derpy_bridge> [discord] <Leo Cornelius [AIO]#9160>:  (edited)
17:24:51 <UkoeHB_> If you just look at the size of a bare bones bitcoin tx vs monero tx, it should give you a pretty good idea of the complexity difference
17:25:04 <UkoeHB_> More complex = longer to verify
17:26:40 <jwinterm> Leo I don't have numbers but my guess is that Monero tx will take at least 10x longer to verify
17:26:56 <jwinterm> I looked briefly and didn't find hard numbers for typical txs for either bitcoin or monero
17:31:09 <sarang> Certain parts of transactions can also be verified in batches, reducing the average verification time
17:32:08 <sarang> Also note that in theory, you could build the transaction protocol using other curves and libraries, so comparing common implementations will be very dependent on the implementation's details and underlying plumbing
18:27:41 <Isthmus> @Inge- "My understanding is that it is currently no way to create multiple transactions in Monero where the second relies on the first existing, but pre-made so it can be broadcast at a later date."
18:27:56 <Isthmus> Yeah, this would be trivial if ring members were indexed by transaction hash instead of output index.
18:28:43 <Isthmus> You could chain as many as you want and release them one-by-one later
18:29:23 <UkoeHB_> Decoy selection would be terrible though
18:29:35 <UkoeHB_> And it likely wouldn't work with advanced binning
18:30:47 <Isthmus> Haha yeah the ring member ages would leak the delayed broadcast, and the guess-newest heuristic would be very effective
18:31:53 <sarang> Well, up to the binning
18:32:24 <sarang> One benefit of binning (as investigated by Miller's team) was that even under the assumption of an age heuristic, you still have an entire bin of that age included
18:32:36 <sarang> and would need extra information to narrow down the signer within that bin
18:33:40 * Isthmus hasn't thought about binning in a while
18:33:50 <Isthmus> I forget, are archival nodes an issue for that method
18:34:04 <sarang> How so?
18:37:27 <Inge-> Isthmus: and indexing by hash would require more space? Other downsides?
18:37:30 <sarang> Miller-style binning uses block hashes to define a bin ordering in a way that miner's can't influence in advance
18:37:44 <sarang> But otherwise, mining and tx broadcast look the same as without it
18:40:45 <moneromooo> Space only for new txes. They can be stored with the current system.
18:41:00 <sarang> s/miner's/miners
18:41:00 <monerobux> sarang meant to say: Miller-style binning uses block hashes to define a bin ordering in a way that miners can't influence in advance
18:41:04 <sarang> good bot
18:41:12 <moneromooo> (s/for new txes/for network traffic/)
18:41:23 <sarang> bot doesn't like you
18:41:33 <sarang> try without brackets?
18:42:04 <moneromooo> s/(a)/\1/g
18:42:15 <moneromooo> s/$/x/
18:42:18 <sarang> bot is ded
18:42:27 <moneromooo> s/s/s/
18:44:08 <sarang> FWIW binning could be used even with small overall ring sizes
18:44:36 <sarang> it reduces the time sampling by using few bins, but gives ambiguity within bins (absent external information)
18:45:02 <sarang> and depending on bin sizes, it could potentially help with cross-input time correlations in some cases too
18:45:07 <sarang> ^ Isthmus
18:49:12 <sarang> i.e. Table 4 on page 14 here: https://www.petsymposium.org/2018/files/papers/issue3/popets-2018-0025.pdf
18:57:37 <sarang> FYI there is a deadline for PoPETS 2021 within a couple of months: https://www.petsymposium.org/cfp21.php
18:57:52 <sarang> I'm considering submitting one or more of CLSAG, Triptych, or Triptych-2...
19:01:03 <sarang> any thoughts/advice are welcome
19:01:19 <sarang> There doesn't appear to be a specific limit on submissions
19:01:35 <sarang> (perhaps real_or_random has insight?)
19:28:47 <sarang> Ugh, I was barely able to fit the equations into a single-column format, and PoPETS requires a tiny two-column layout...
19:29:07 <sarang> I wonder if it'll be straightforward to use a column-spanning environment in TeX
19:30:05 <UkoeHB_> add a footnote 'please use the ZOOM function'
19:30:59 <sarang> I've never understood the rationale for two-column layouts in math-heavy publications
19:31:06 <sarang> It's nothing but a hassle
19:31:42 <sarang> I had one preprint where the editors and typesetters ended up doing some crazy column-spanning stuff, but it still looked just horrible
19:32:18 <sarang> But I suppose you've gotta play the game if you want to avoid an immediate rejection for formatting :/
20:03:32 <gingeropolous> wenbin
20:49:07 <moneromooo> Haha, so it's not only in programming people want to rewrite shit just so whitespace is just how they like it ? :D
20:58:08 <UkoeHB_> sarang that sounds like a good opportunity to get more eyes on CLSAG/etc
21:04:38 <sarang> It'd be months before reviews came back
21:05:17 <sarang> Bah, I asked the program chairs if a simple article-style format was ok for initial submissions, to avoid the time-consuming formatting work until/unless the paper was accepted
21:05:19 <sarang> but nope :(
21:05:32 <sarang> That seems like an unnecessary waste of time
21:17:48 <fuwa> i thought changing layout is like a one liner in tex
21:20:44 <sarang> It is, but that doesn't help complex mathematics
21:21:15 <sarang> TeX doesn't handle mathematics flows like it does text (and even then, sometimes you need to help it out with text too)
21:21:30 <fuwa> too bad
21:21:32 <sarang> Yeah
21:23:18 <sarang> e.g. pages 7 and 8 of Triptych-2 are gonna be... fun
21:23:42 <fuwa> link?
21:24:12 <sarang> https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/312
21:24:44 <sarang> I had one coauthor who figured out a way to do a mathematical diagram on a separate page in landscape mode, which was the only way he could get it to fit on a page!
21:25:14 <fuwa> ok, so the built-in auto wrap won't work
21:26:01 <needbrrrrrrr90> sarang https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/30988
21:26:04 <needbrrrrrrr90> any reason that doesnt work?
21:26:14 <sarang> There are some multiline environments but I haven't tested them with long eqnarrays
21:26:41 <needbrrrrrrr90> cant you just prerender the equations as images, and inline them as that tex post says?
21:26:53 <needbrrrrrrr90> sure its hacky and manual
21:27:06 <sarang> That breaks any changes in font etc. that they use
21:27:27 <sarang> I'll see what I can do
21:27:52 <sarang> Worth noting that figure environments don't have to contain images
21:28:09 <sarang> So for displayed boxes showing things like algorithms/protocols, could be very useful
21:28:32 <fuwa> the font on pages 7 / 8 is obviously too large for 2 columns
21:28:35 <needbrrrrrrr90> I didnt dig too deep, just assumed it was image only
21:28:38 <fuwa> i wonder if you can tweak that
21:28:56 <fuwa> not the font, but the resolution
21:29:33 <sarang> fuwa: their required style package specifies a particular font and size, of course
21:30:13 <fuwa> what ?
21:30:25 <sarang> The linked preprint uses the standard article documentclass
21:30:38 <needbrrrrrrr90> many places that take preprints have exacting requirements as to the format of those preprints
21:30:38 <sarang> The conference proceedings use their own class/style
21:30:56 <needbrrrrrrr90> including font type, font size, column number, bibliography style, whatever
21:31:02 <needbrrrrrrr90> gotta play the game
21:31:08 <sarang> What's strange is many organizations don't care the format of your initial submission, which is really nice
21:31:20 <sarang> If you're accepted, then they'll have you format according to their preferences
21:31:37 <sarang> This reduces unnecessary work on the part of authors until/unless they're accepted, which is really nice
21:31:51 <sarang> I don't really get the necessity of doing all the camera-ready formatting from the start
21:32:02 <needbrrrrrrr90> by accepted, you mean 'they take your money to list your print in a medium that they charge for access to' right?
21:32:11 <needbrrrrrrr90> basically taking money from both sides :D
21:32:13 <sarang> There's no submission fees
21:32:17 <needbrrrrrrr90> oh neat
21:32:25 <sarang> And it's open access
21:32:26 <needbrrrrrrr90> the publishing industry doesnt usually leave me with good impressions
21:32:42 <sarang> So in this case, nobody is paying to submit or to view articles
21:32:56 <sarang> and of course, the preprints are available if authors post them
21:33:01 <needbrrrrrrr90> What's the journal?
21:33:09 <sarang> In this case, PoPETs
21:33:15 <sarang> https://www.petsymposium.org/
21:33:32 <sarang> They have this rolling submission method that I like
21:33:57 <sarang> Anyway, now I know what I'll be doing for the next few days :D
21:34:07 <sarang> FORMATTING
21:34:40 <fuwa> such productive work
21:34:59 <fuwa> i meant the foratting, of course
21:35:43 <UkoeHB_> need to find an intern
21:36:15 <needbrrrrrrr90> sarang I wonder if fiverrr has any latex experts :D
21:36:47 <needbrrrrrrr90> fiverr*
21:36:47 <sarang> I'm sure it's a good exercise in TeX :D
21:37:03 <sarang> Or a subtle indication of "too much math, sorry"
21:37:03 <fuwa> i have some tex experience
21:37:12 <sarang> orly
21:37:12 <fuwa> hmm, actually ignore that
21:37:21 <needbrrrrrrr90> yeah but if we can fob off the formatting on some schmuck for a cool $50, that leaves your time open for more productive things
21:37:21 <sarang> I was gonna say, the source to those papers is available
21:37:54 <fuwa> i've switch career to content creation already
21:38:00 <sarang> needbrrrrrrr90: eh, I wrote it, so it's my responsibility
21:38:09 <sarang> and at any rate, it's a good chance for me to catch any errors
21:38:26 <sarang> I'm just needlessly complaining about TeX formatting :D
21:38:26 * needbrrrrrrr90 points out that money lets you defer responsibility in a socially acceptable way
21:39:07 <needbrrrrrrr90> :)
21:40:27 <sarang> I'll definitely submit CLSAG for sure, and that one should be much easier
21:40:41 <sarang> Even though reviews will take a while, like UkoeHB_ it will be good to get extra eyes on it
21:44:07 <sarang> Between Triptych and Triptych-2, I suspect Triptych has a better chance of acceptance since it has a more complete LRS security model