12:52:52 <hyc> sgp: we specifically asked that this channel not be bridged
12:54:55 <moneromooo> Sorry. Guess I should have asked here too before opping.
12:57:57 <hyc> lkcl: sounds perfect
12:58:26 <moneromooo> I don't think there's a relay bot I can kick though. Not sure how that works.
13:00:26 <sech1> hv-bridge is here
13:00:32 <sech1> don't kick it though :D
13:00:38 <hv-bridge> <\x> plz dont ban me
13:00:55 <moneromooo> Where does that go ?
13:01:14 <hv-bridge> <\x> hashvault discord
13:06:31 <sech1> you can kick investanto though, never liked that bot
13:07:03 <moneromooo> I guess. It's useless anyway.
13:18:00 <sech1> it only spammed with quits and joins :D
15:47:41 <sgp_> hyc: I can remove the bridge but what's the problem with it
15:48:02 <sgp_> We're really pushing to get people on Matrix
15:48:40 <sgp_> IRC simply isn't used by more and more community members
15:54:45 <hyc> that's fine. enlarging this community would only dilute the conversation
15:55:19 <hyc> granted, there's not much focused activity going on now
15:55:48 <hyc> but when there is, we want active developers participation, not peanut gallery
16:58:10 <hv-bridge> <\x> sorry
19:42:56 <gingeropolous> <hyc> granted, there's not much focused activity going on now >>> the beauty of hacking a major industry so they do all the work for you
19:44:03 <gingeropolous> i still like to kick the can around about increasing the 2 gb thing to something greater, or have it algorithmically adjust somehow
19:45:53 <hyc> anyone ever hear back from linzhi-sonia?
19:46:34 <hyc> we could just build in an automatic RAM size increase every 3-4 years
19:47:00 <hyc> might piss some people off, but ~3 yrs seems to be the average update cycle for desktop PCs
19:47:28 <gingeropolous> yeah, that presupposes that civilization maintains its steady march of progress. my main concern with a fixed growth like that is what happens in the case of some 10-30 year stall
19:47:51 <hyc> difficulty adjustment kicks in?
19:48:41 <gingeropolous> would that offset the requirements for increased ram size?
19:49:34 <hyc> maybe. if everybody's hashrate took a nosedive because the RAM requirements caused existing systems to start swapping
19:49:52 <hyc> then lowering difficulty could ocunter the perf drop
19:49:58 <hyc> counter
19:50:28 <gingeropolous> true, but it would further the divide between "professional", larger miners and smaller miners perhaps
19:50:46 <hv-bridge> <\x> hyc ddr5 will start with 16Gbit ICs
19:50:58 <gingeropolous> though that divide exists already. i mean the 2 gb thing is mostly botnet deterrence though, right?
19:51:20 <hyc> remember the target was originally 4GB
19:51:23 <hv-bridge> <\x> so likely the normal sticks on ddr5 be like 2x 16GB
19:51:24 <gingeropolous> yeah
19:51:34 <hyc> the aim was to make it too expensice to do an ASIC with all on-chip RAM
19:51:38 <hv-bridge> <\x> like on a home setup,
19:52:28 <gingeropolous> and id much rather be proactive about it instead of reactive
19:52:36 <hyc> though HBM is getting pretty common these days
19:52:49 <hv-bridge> <\x> idk if this matters to this channel but
19:52:49 <gingeropolous> lest we go through "ermagerd another hf to kick asics thIs IsnT sUStAInAblE
19:52:50 <hv-bridge> <\x> https://files.catbox.moe/078zvy.pdf JESD79-5_1.pdf
19:53:03 <hv-bridge> <\x> Jedec DDR5 specification
19:53:58 <hyc> backing down to 2GB somewhat compromised our goal, but it allowed a generation of older PCs to participate
19:54:19 <gingeropolous> but there's probably not a clean way to tie it to difficulty somehow... either thresholds or change in rate of change
19:54:30 <gingeropolous> hashrate acceleration factor
19:55:20 <hyc> At least this time around, I don't see how we can avoid another HF after ~3 years of operation
19:55:40 <hyc> at that point we'll need to look at both RAM scaling and CPU scaling, since the other factor was time to prove & verify.
19:55:49 <moneromooo> Doubling the mining memory buffer also doubles the verification buffer IIRC.
19:56:31 <hyc> and while RAM increases pretty much like clockwork, CPU perf doesn't
19:56:48 <hyc> doubling RAM might leave us in a situation where verification becomes too slow
19:58:16 <gingeropolous> so the primary thread it still customized HW, and the general sense is that that would look like a CPU with massive RAM on chip
19:58:37 <gingeropolous> but if thats occuring as a specialized effort.... the tech is there for commodity CPU manufacturers to do it as well
19:59:19 <hyc> yep
19:59:36 <hyc> so a lot depends on what's the hot new commodity CPU in 3 years time
19:59:53 <gingeropolous> so i guess at that point it goes back to botnet deterrence?
20:00:27 <gingeropolous> with the assumption that botnets are on old computers because old computers run old software that doesn't get updated
20:01:06 <gingeropolous> but neither of the main OS providers even allow for internet-connected but not-updatable systems now afaik
20:01:19 <moneromooo> I don't get the botnet deterrence thing. They're doing a public good instead of whatever nefarious thing htey'd otherwise to.
20:01:23 <gingeropolous> windows will eventually update no matter how many times you say "no i have way too many windows open"
20:02:37 <gingeropolous> hell, perhaps in 3 years time we could find ourselves lowering the 2 GB ram requirement in order to speed up verification
20:03:48 <moneromooo> The more usage, the more of the verification time is taken by tx verification compared to PoW verification.
20:04:15 <gingeropolous> indeed. could also lower PoW verification with increase blocktime
20:04:23 <gingeropolous> if thats *really* a concern
20:04:28 <hyc> moneromooo: the botnet deterrence thing is an issue of public image, I think. Instead of just letting them proliferate
20:04:49 <hyc> and Monero being known as the botnet coin, we make botnets easier to detect, and become known as the good guys fighting them
20:04:54 <gingeropolous> well we're not the ones letting them proliferate :{
20:04:59 <gingeropolous> i meant :P
20:05:21 <hyc> I suppose. but certainly they're encouraged to try, if it's so easy to mine and earn money
20:05:48 <hyc> we're already in danger of becoming the new ransomware coin, taking that title away from bitcoin
20:06:38 <moneromooo> Oh really :/
20:07:05 <gingeropolous> money's money. Not our fault society is broken
20:07:08 <moneromooo> Guess it makes sense. Fourth amendment coin would be so much better, but I guess we live in a shit world.
20:08:49 <gingeropolous> but back to it... the easiest way to be proactive against any sort of custom HW development may be time-delimited RAM requirement increases .. ?
20:09:28 <gingeropolous> unless we could find a way for the protocol to be aware of a hashrate increase that deviates from the normal rate of increase
20:09:44 <gingeropolous> normal behind defined as some rollling window perhaps
20:10:26 <hyc> not sure how practical or useful that is, esp in the face of Azure abuse
20:10:47 <gingeropolous> but time-delimited ram requirements expose us to the possibility of monero failing in some nuclear winter, civilization-pause event
20:11:11 <hyc> anyway, right now I think our botnet deterrence story is good. slowdown is not ignorable, so botnets become easier to detect
20:12:01 <gingeropolous> <hyc> not sure how practical or useful that is, esp in the face of Azure abuse >>> it could be a long window
20:12:20 <gingeropolous> but yeah. its not clean
20:14:18 <hyc> and it really is 2nd-guessing the difficulty adjustment algo.
20:14:39 <hyc> if 50% of miners went offline in a global catastrophe...
20:15:02 <gingeropolous> roight roight roight
21:27:03 <Inge-> Moneros claim to fame in Norway is the highest profile kidnapping ransom in modern history (although police charged the husband with murder and now believe the crypto ransom was a wild herring chase or a red goose.