12:41:56 <gingeropolous> well, if its actually amazon or another big corp, if they run a daemon, then they could be considered *supporting* monero
12:42:10 <gingeropolous> but just mining, well, they're just maximizing profit
12:43:10 <gingeropolous> again, it could be the scorched earth approach. If they are already mining themselves, then hackers might not have the same opportunity?
15:59:54 <derpy_bridge> <[discord] bemore#3657>: Is there any possibility that the nano hash is some kind of ASIC? I've heard ASIC manufactures are claiming to be able to produce one for monero, but i assumed it was just boasting at the time.
16:05:44 <selsta> there are no signs that these are ASICs, especially because someone who had 200MH/s was confirmed to be an azure miner
18:38:46 <bemore> really interesting to see these clusters being used on Monero
18:40:43 <bemore> what are signs that are looked for? I would assume future nonce patterns will be designed to blend in, but if they aren't even using a private pool, maybe they don't care enough to hide themselves at all?
19:41:13 <xmrpow> Hey guys, im really thinking about shutting down xmrpow.de, because of the fact that there is simply no demand on the miner side. We have been out for few months now and there was basically no growth or interest, although we really tried hard. I dont get it why miners  point their hashrate at the top 3 pools  although there is no need for this behaviour. Anyway I cant change that, but the obvious solution would be to shut it d
19:41:13 <xmrpow> rly dont want that, but it would just be the rational conclusion. What are your thoughts?
19:42:05 <scoobybejesus> Does it occupy much time?  Or losing money?
19:44:04 <xmrpow> We lost few hundred euros by using nicehash and having a badly configured daemon. Additionally we need to pay the server monthly and we spent a lot of time by coding the frontend.
19:44:45 <xmrpow> The server cost would be fine for me, but if nobody is using it why spending the money and time?
20:00:26 <tevador> xmrpow: if the pool was down for a month, you will need more time to regain the trust of miners
20:02:49 <xmrpow> tevador: It was not down. Look at gntl pool xmrpool.net etc. They are out there for quite a long time and they did not have much luck as well. That s what is frustrating me...
20:03:43 <asymptotically> xmrpow: snipa (xmrpool.net admin) tells people not to mine there, i don't think it counts when he sabotages his own pool :)
20:04:22 <xmrpow> asymptotically: Fair point ;) But I think there are still plenty other examples.
20:04:29 <asymptotically> yeah it's not the best :(
20:04:51 <xmrpow> 75% of all hashrate at the top 3 pools
20:05:18 <xmrpow> The miners there just dont see a reason to move.
20:06:17 <xmrpow> I put money and time in that thing and that is totally ok, but im not going to do it if nobody has a use for it. We even lowered our fee too 0% and nothing happened.
20:10:39 <Snipa> Attracting miners has always been a problem unfortunately.
20:12:02 <Snipa> M5M and I have discussed several times before about what happens if sxmr grows too large, as we both have a vested interest in ensuring the long-term security of the network.
20:13:16 <xmrpow> And what was the result of this discussion?
20:13:31 <moneromooo> People want a decentralied currency, yet flock to the same pools, and complain the monero team is centralised, yet we are a set of unrelated people. They want to be in control of their money, yet flock to known scams. Shrug.
20:13:41 <Snipa> Ratchet up fees if we grow to become a serious risk to network stability.
20:14:07 <xmrpow> I have talked to M5M400 before and he is for sure not going to increase fees.
20:14:07 <Snipa> The issue these days is it's just going to shove to one of the other big pools.  There is no excellent answer that we've come up with unfortunately.
20:14:09 <asymptotically> moneromooo: getting scammed is totally worth it to be able to use MinerGate's sleek ui :)
20:14:24 <tevador> Snipa: supportxmr should have increased the fee to 1% long time ago
20:14:24 <xmrpow> snipa: that is true
20:14:27 <Snipa> Not normally certianly, but growing to 50% of the nethash is problematic.
20:14:49 <Snipa> tevador - And shove the traffic somewhere else?  It's the same problem, just with different people.
20:14:51 <tevador> let's leave <1% for small pools trying to attract miners
20:15:18 <tevador> Snipa shove where exactly? the other top3 pools both have 1%
20:15:20 <Snipa> Part of the reason sxmr attracts people is because it's infrastructure is comical, and provides things you don't get with small pools.
20:15:33 <Snipa> Interesting, honestly, hadn't looked in forever.
20:15:40 <Snipa> Last I recall, we were all < 1%
20:15:42 <xmrpow> tevador: Im not sure if the fee increasement would have solved that. Minexmr and nanpool are at 1% as well and nobody cares
20:15:53 <tevador> Snipa: https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero#
20:16:12 <Snipa> Huh, interesting.
20:16:19 <Snipa> I guess I am that out of date on fees.
20:16:25 <tevador> minexmr and nanopool both 1%, it would make totally no sense for miners to move if you increase to 1%
20:16:44 <Snipa> Yeah, apologies, I remembered them as lower.  (Also been up close to 20 hours again.)
20:16:45 <tevador> perhaps to smaller pools, which would be a good outcome
20:17:12 <tevador> plus you'd make more money
20:17:17 <tevador> it's a win-win :P
20:17:41 <xmrpow> M5M400 does not want to increase fees because he " trusts himself"
20:17:44 <Snipa> Heh.  I'll talk to M5M about it, I know there's been some interesting times recently with some seriously huge miners.
20:18:23 <xmrpow> Snipa: I have tried to convince him multiple times...
20:18:31 <Snipa> Yes, but I'm the co-op of the pool. :)
20:18:41 <xmrpow> true ;)
20:19:13 <xmrpow> But then maybe all of them are going to move to minexmr...
20:19:39 <xmrpow> That was m5ms arguement and he was somehow right...
20:20:46 <M5M400> precisely
20:20:55 <xmrpow> There he is ;)
20:20:57 <M5M400> or, worst case, the miners don't care at all
20:21:02 <M5M400> and just keep mining
20:21:04 <Snipa> Summon him enough times, and he'll show up.
20:21:48 <M5M400> increasing fees might work if all top pools follow suit.
20:21:58 <M5M400> otherwise it'll be just juggling around between them
20:22:00 <Snipa> Too bad no-one knows how to talk to nano.
20:22:09 <tevador> M5M400 your turn to follow suit, the other pools are already at 1%
20:22:37 <M5M400> fair enough
20:23:04 <Snipa> Haha.  So much convincing.
20:23:09 <xmrpow> Is the op of nanopool here in irc?
20:23:19 <M5M400> i think nanopool is a self-aware AI
20:23:20 <Snipa> Nah.  Nanopool is it's own thing.
20:24:34 <M5M400> xmrpow: again, it won't help you with your pool if top pools increase fees. you need that big bang moment like every other pool that a larger miner discovers you and keeps you afloat
20:25:10 <Snipa> Or run something unique.  Xmrpool.net still gets miners looking for those big random payouts.
20:25:11 <xmrpow> I dont think that this is still going to happen because you had the first mover advantage
20:25:24 <Snipa> I mean, technically, I had the first mover advantage over sxmr. :)
20:25:51 <Snipa> sxmr still outgrew me.  sxmr outgrew .fr, where I was mining for the longest time before I wrote the pool.
20:26:00 <M5M400> I've been mining at your pool and dragged a couple of people over. they would've stayed if the pool wasn't misconfigured and you washed all the shares out of the window with that huge nicehash blast
20:26:16 <xmrpow> I know.
20:26:34 <xmrpow> Shit happens.
20:26:39 <xmrpow> Even to you ;)
20:26:42 <M5M400> indeed.
20:27:01 <M5M400> and when it does, it takes time to recover.
20:27:03 <Snipa> Usually it involves me sleeping through a fork.
20:29:11 <xmrpow> M5M400: And what about all these other small pools?
20:29:31 <Snipa> Tbh, find a way to distinguish yourself.  It's what SXMR did back in the day, why xmrpool stays open (Solo mining).  Sxmr went full bore into providing a global network.
20:30:30 <xmrpow> How do you want to "distinguish". We are just a pool.
20:30:33 <sech1> sxmr also had some nice bugs like double-paying some blocks, lol
20:30:37 <Snipa> Shhhhh.
20:31:02 <Snipa> The reason xmrpool exists, other than the fact that Wolf goaded me into it, is because we wanted something other than proportional payouts, which is what the original pool supported.
20:31:10 <Snipa> We wanted PPLNS, so I wrote PPLNS.
20:31:11 <M5M400> yeah. snipas pool software was basically the kickstart for us. it had features everybody was requesting back in the day and were not available in existing pool software. I took the plunge and was the first to use it
20:31:20 <Snipa> Second, thank you very much.
20:32:00 <M5M400> *first non-reference-instance
20:32:08 <xmrpow> We do offer self-select.
20:32:10 <Snipa> Solo came along.  PPS was another requested one (That failed horridly when I tried it.  Sadly.)
20:32:46 <xmrpow> But I think when you started it was another time. The market was not that saturated.
20:33:38 <M5M400> xmrpow: yo do. but you lack basic things like payout history, worker stats, user configured fixed diff, notifications, ....
20:35:14 <xmrpow> Who does need these things?
20:35:29 <M5M400> payout history? have you met miners?
20:35:55 <Snipa> ^
20:36:59 <xmrpow> If they get their payout what is the problem?
20:37:23 <Snipa> Wrong way to look at it.
20:37:33 <Snipa> Running a pool is a customer service job (It's why I'm bad at it.)
20:37:48 <Snipa> If the customer wants more stats, you give them more stats, so they're happier and mine loner.
20:38:29 <xmrpow> You might be true that these features are the cherry on the top.
20:38:50 <moneromooo> You should change tack and make a miner dating site. Tagline "have you met miners?"
20:39:06 <Snipa> "Power hungry, loud, and hot as you can handle.  Miners."
20:39:24 <asymptotically> needs to have an option to filter out people that double space ^
20:39:39 <M5M400> as I said: you need that one miner that drags you out of the gutter. like tor-pool.
20:39:50 <xmrpow> But I think what miners should care about are fees.
20:39:52 <M5M400> if he's satisfied, he'll tell his friends
20:40:03 <Snipa> Miners care about efficiency.
20:40:10 <M5M400> and uptime.
20:40:10 <Snipa> Payout records prove efficiency.
20:40:48 <M5M400> xmrpow UI doesn't even show effort/luck per block
20:40:55 <Snipa> Oooft.
20:41:07 <xmrpow> Why does respectxmr got these miners although he does not have these fancy features...
20:41:18 <xmrpow> Or lets talk about gntl...
20:41:29 <M5M400> because he has a USP... mining via tor, and tor only.
20:41:49 <xmrpow> He does have all features you mentioned.
20:41:56 <Snipa> You're making little to no effort to try and pull in miners either.  Features sell a pool, as does support and solid uptime.
20:41:58 <M5M400> efficiency is key. there's a reason pages like this exist: https://moneroocean.stream/profits/
20:43:04 <Snipa> I always forget he's running that.
20:43:06 <xmrpow> I dont get the point of respectxmr. If i got that right he is just hiding himself... A miner could always connect via tor.
20:43:24 <Snipa> Not really.  Tor's latency through exit nodes is non-ideal for miners.
20:43:44 <xmrpow> and tor without 3 hops is useless.
20:43:50 <xmrpow> so why doing it?
20:44:17 <asymptotically> xmrpow: the miner is still anonymous, the hidden service can optionally make itself less anonymous by only hiding behind a single hop
20:44:47 <asymptotically> there's lots of middle relay and guard bandwidth on tor so it's pretty good, just exits are usually crappy
20:45:18 <xmrpow> asymptotically: Ok, didnt know that. Thanks for that info
20:46:08 <xmrpow> Ok, but lets talk about gntl pool. He does have all the features you mentioned and is in the space for 2 years now...
20:46:41 <xmrpow> I think the reason why he isnt in the top 10 is not functionality
20:48:07 <M5M400> who's running gntl?
20:48:16 <xmrpow> Bkdisle.
20:48:26 <M5M400> ah, right
20:48:48 <xmrpow> or cryptonote social.
20:49:01 <M5M400> social has a weird paying scheme
20:49:15 <M5M400> might scare off profit driven people
20:49:47 <xmrpow> Or lets take moneroocean stream
20:49:59 <xmrpow> He is offering lower fees than sxmr and mxmr
20:50:02 <M5M400> the ocean is doing great
20:50:09 <xmrpow> But just has 19mhs
20:50:15 <M5M400> 'just'
20:50:38 <xmrpow> I think you see the difference between sxmr and moneroocean.stream
20:51:00 <xmrpow> Why are they not spreading although miners would have a reason.
20:51:43 <M5M400> because I hacked all my miners email, extracted their dirty secrets and am blackmailing them to not switch?
20:52:17 <M5M400> free markets are weird.
20:53:10 <M5M400> I think sxmr's success is hugely based on snipas and my reputation in the community
20:54:53 <xmrpow> Might be true.
20:55:14 <M5M400> but a lot of it is just luck
20:56:54 <xmrpow> Would you say I should continue xmrpow.de?
20:57:00 <Mochi101> Someone said there's a party here.
20:58:16 <Mochi101> I suggest that supportxmr caps his total hashrate and rather than accept shares he sends them to some other smaller pool.
20:58:29 <Mochi101> You know, for decentralization.
20:59:01 <M5M400> .kick Mochi101
20:59:01 <hv-bridge> <Moss> <@725317053849796610>, Sorry, you don't have permissions to use this!
20:59:06 <M5M400> :P
20:59:18 <M5M400> xmrpow: if you are serious about it, you have to.
20:59:19 <Mochi101> Moss is everywhere.
20:59:45 <Snipa> But you kinda have to be serious about it.  SXmr took some serious work to grow.
20:59:59 <M5M400> part of why newcomer pools have a rough start is because so many come and go when they realize it's not a shortcut to lambotown
21:00:03 <Mochi101> Offered supreme support.
21:00:31 <moneromooo> Poor satoshi. Invent a novel way to achieve consensus among untrusting party, watch as people whore their agency to some random site on the internet.
21:00:35 <M5M400> look at Mochi101. he still runs monero.win even though he's the only one playing there
21:00:40 <M5M400> that's dedication
21:00:42 <Snipa> Including me screaming through the codebase rewriting share storage.  Infrastructure changes to support the growth and change in algos.  Pushing servers to, their, at the time, limits of what could be done.
21:00:45 <Mochi101> hehehehe
21:00:51 <Mochi101> yeap
21:01:16 <Snipa> We've blown up our queue systems, survived the xmrrig-cheat fiascos.
21:01:25 <xmrpow> I dont want to get that sxmr scale. I would be totally fine 1 block per week.
21:01:39 <Mochi101> Takes work and dedication.
21:01:45 <Snipa> ^  And more than you expect.
21:01:54 <Mochi101> Build up a reputation.
21:02:04 <M5M400> the amount of ruined vacations....
21:02:04 <Mochi101> You're so new here.
21:02:43 <Mochi101> It's not the greatest time for miners right now either.
21:02:53 <Mochi101> Still a bit of a crypto winter going on.
21:03:00 <M5M400> my GF just went to bed alone, sad nobody is warming her feet justified by "I am busy discussing pool fees with random internet strangers"
21:03:19 <Mochi101> I'm there in spirit M5M400
21:04:17 <xmrpow> M5M400: I think you are not mining with us right?
21:04:30 <M5M400> not at this point, no.
21:05:15 <xmrpow> Why not?
21:05:28 <Mochi101> xmrpow, you should hang out in monero-pools... catch all the newbies and get them to start on your pool
21:05:34 <M5M400> you screwed me over. need to regain trust by observing if the pool is operating normally now
21:05:40 <Mochi101> Some good support and canned responses.
21:06:02 <M5M400> xmrpow: joking. I'm on vacation. can point them back when I'm back home
21:06:31 <Mochi101> s/joking/half joking
21:06:40 <M5M400> but that would be a regular miner response
21:07:08 <xmrpow> Mochi101: I dont like spamming the chat... Maybe it would get lost between keto and food stuff ;)
21:07:14 <M5M400> after expecting 0.72 xmr/month and getting 0.03 xmr/month
21:07:53 <M5M400> actually, scratch that. a regular miner response would be "admin steel hash"
21:08:18 <xmrpow> M5M400: I did offer you sth , but you didnt want to take it ;)
21:08:29 <M5M400> because I am no regular miner
21:08:32 <M5M400> :)
21:09:08 <M5M400> you can see I didn't start a pitchfork thread on /r/moneromining accusing you of theft ;)
21:10:08 <xmrpow> Nobody would read it anyway ;)
21:10:11 <Mochi101> A normal miner would have.
21:10:49 <M5M400> don't be sad. I upvoted your post.
21:11:24 <M5M400> xmrpow: have you considered adding a live chat on your pool website?
21:11:46 <xmrpow> Im not sad I just dont want to spend my resources on things that are not worth it.
21:12:06 <xmrpow> I have thought about it, but I dont like it.
21:12:17 <M5M400> so you want profit?
21:12:30 <M5M400> or 'just' decentralization?
21:12:48 <M5M400> what were your motivations for starting the pool?
21:12:55 <xmrpow> No, I want that sb has a use for my work.
21:13:00 <xmrpow> nothing more.
21:13:13 <M5M400> that's good
21:13:17 <xmrpow> With 0% profit ? ;)
21:13:58 <M5M400> well, the 0% are not sustainable forever
21:14:05 <xmrpow> Unfortunatley a pool is just useful if people are mining on it.
21:14:12 <M5M400> there are 13 people mining on it
21:14:26 <xmrpow> Part of that hashrate is mine...
21:14:35 <xmrpow> Just small miners.
21:14:38 <asymptotically> and you've found blocks :)
21:14:39 <M5M400> so 12 people are mining on it?
21:14:46 <xmrpow> bascially.
21:14:52 <xmrpow> Just nicehash.
21:14:56 <Mochi101> A lot better than 0
21:15:01 <M5M400> yeah
21:15:08 <M5M400> you created something and people are using it
21:15:58 <xmrpow> 12 is nothing.
21:15:59 <M5M400> my honest opinion is that your UI is a adoption repellent. If you are serious about continuing, I would work on it first
21:16:30 <Mochi101> ++
21:16:30 <xmrpow> why?
21:16:38 <Mochi101> It's hideous
21:16:54 <asymptotically> i like the look :(
21:16:58 <xmrpow> Me too
21:17:13 <asymptotically> i am a little blind though
21:17:18 <xmrpow> It is structured in a clear way
21:17:27 <M5M400> I also don't understand why it's so slow. the box is hosted in germany. I'm not far away
21:17:28 <Mochi101> Where's your payout history?
21:17:45 <xmrpow> Maybe lets shift this discussion to monero-pools now...
21:18:09 <Mochi101> Put your miner address box at the top.
21:18:10 <M5M400> certainly more potential for opinions over there
21:18:47 <Mochi101> Quick explanation of what it is... maybe some "Pool news"
21:19:02 <Mochi101> (without having to click)