02:04:35 https://imgur.com/a/DRJwUmH 02:04:45 Does that look vaguely accurate for a calculation? 02:05:10 Someone in another project is running some cross-algo numbers and came up with that for Monero with a little help 02:05:47 seems reasonable 02:05:55 While others prattled on about how ASIC-resistance is futile (but failed to produce any clear reason/evidence) 02:06:12 Yeah it seemed within scope 02:06:16 It's using a 3900X as a baseline 02:08:16 I wouldn't say without clear reason 02:08:35 there are arguments that were made on both sides 02:08:42 I'm not saying there isn't truth to the statement 02:08:57 Merely that they couldn't/wouldn't produce any clear backing for their statements 02:09:55 I think simply saying that if/when randomx fails then it will be tweaked or swapped for sha3 inherently shows that this is kind of a more centralized and temporary approach 02:10:27 I think that's pretty clear, and using facts that both sides probably agree about 02:11:31 IMO switching to SHA3 would be the most decentralized and permanent approach if RandomX fails 02:11:37 IDK how that would be centralized 02:11:58 More attempts at ASIC-resistance would be centralizing, IMO, as the previous were 02:12:29 That's why I'm also in the camp of "if RandomX fails move to SHA3/similar ASIC-friendly algo" 02:14:21 I just think that with the way computer hardware and manufacturing have been advancing for decades, it is going to need to be tweaked or swapped 02:14:57 so I think the simpler solution would have been to just go directly to sha3 02:15:00 Yeah I guess that falls back to "when has RandomX failed" issue 02:15:05 but... 02:15:10 .shrug 02:15:15 Because I guess small tweaks could be fine, but would easily fall back into scheduled changes... 02:15:26 right 02:15:31 Unless it was just an optimization/improvement 02:16:03 But thats a fine line lol 02:16:30 having a handful or less of people fiddling with proof-of-work in never ending game of cat-and-mouse seems less than fully decentralized 02:17:03 Yup 02:17:10 Absolutely agree 02:38:09 i dunno. If the situation arises where a heretofore unknown entity can create what is effectively a general purpose CPU that performs more efficiently than the existing competition, AND the mining of monero has a greater ROI than selling these hyper efficient CPUs to the world, then ..... 02:38:27 i just think the playing field at that point is something that no one has imagined yet 02:52:10 I don't think that necessarily is the case gingeropolous 02:53:12 maybe it's just in a year or three when current gen fabs are not cutting edge anymore someone trims some fat and adds a bunch of cache and they can get 50% or 250% more efficiency 02:54:14 then core team deliberates and makes announcement on whether or not changes will be forthcoming via their scribe rehrar and it just gives the appearance of centralization 02:54:37 so how much is it to license amd or intel stuff to make your own fat trimmed thingy? 02:54:53 good q 02:55:00 does arm still suck butthole? 02:55:14 for randomx? 02:55:18 yes 02:55:24 i think its just a matter of cache 02:56:09 I don't think you can really license x86 stuff if you want 02:56:10 i mean, in one sense, randomx may have done to cpu manufacturing what PoW in general has done to energy 02:56:18 I think intel and amd like their duopoly 02:56:40 i.e., in energy, its now possible to store excess energy in the form of a cryptocurrency 02:56:55 because now there's always a demand for energy - bitcoin mining 02:57:29 same with cpu manufacturing. at some point, it may be realized that you can always churn out CPUs and call em Monero Miners if cpu demand in this or that sector is low 02:57:38 and then when its high, you just sell less "monero miners" 02:57:51 if monero mining becomes that profitable 02:58:16 so now there's a way to store excess CPU manufacturing ability in the form of cryptocurrency 02:58:33 if the tubes are pointed in the right directions 03:01:05 if monero marketcap increases 100x or so 03:01:49 if monero mining becomes that profitable <<>> but this again comes down to energy cost just like any other POW 03:01:51 but for now we're effectively protected by AMD and intel 03:01:55 except my cpu can do other things besides mining 03:03:20 it doesn't become a door stop 03:03:22 which is a helluva .... utilization of resources that have been re-purposed for goals not originally designed for 03:05:12 i mean, i guess in one sense, bitcoin asics was a similar repurposing.... of an unprecedented era in fabrication 03:06:09 i just don't think they had the knobs turned quite right. hopefully we do 03:07:29 thats what i don't get with the whole thing. like, we saw what happens with the ASIC path. bitcoin. and anyone thats come in the wake of that has been even worse for wear. 03:07:58 honestly I don't think it's looking that bad for bitcoin 03:08:12 there's five or six companies making asics, several of which are now publicly traded 03:08:25 there's operations opening around the world at pretty large scale 03:08:28 .shrug 03:08:34 yeah i still don't get that. still not gettin one at bestbuy anytime soon 03:09:02 I guess I wouldn't buy a computer/monero miner there either 03:10:26 yeah, u woulnd't. but your neighbor 2 doors down that read about the bitcorns and then sees a bitcorn miner at his local costco might buy one 03:11:26 geet ya bitcorn err! 03:19:14 le sigh 12:30:13 dayum 12:30:14 https://xmr.nanopool.org/account/432xURdcG5af8j1bFNomb2ZruSMDcDrTLa7ePNxqgZsV5Vg3W61FpkgA8CmNjPkzsFYKUz4ZgmvDp1CeX2eiGu511g5xWAG 12:30:17 250 MH/s 13:54:44 That chart is nice, cost $33 per XMR ,and XMR is worth $60-ish, so 2:1 profit 13:55:33 those 5-6 ASIC mfrs in bitcoin land are all going to consolidate, they're not all viable on their own 13:56:10 there are other x86 companies. VIA is one. I think there's another licensee in China, can't recall the name 13:56:42 and ARM is actually quite good at the computational part of RandomX. it just lacks in memory perf and cache, as ginger already noted 13:57:43 I believe if you had an ARM-based chip with Ryzen-level memory controller and cache subsystem, it would slightly beat Ryzen efficiency 13:59:30 as for SHA3, ASIC-friendliness - I think the track record is pretty clear, the cat'n'mouse game continues except more of it occurs in secret, which is overall detrimental to the ecosysstem 13:59:49 all you ASIC-friendly advocates are basically shitheads who haven't learned from history 14:01:39 the CPU game is no less competitive but more of it occurs in public. Intel and AMD present at conferences like ISSCC and brag about their latest designs 14:02:04 ASIC designers generally keep trade secrets forever 14:02:42 Intel bragging: "Our innovative new speculative execution system..." 14:02:54 all this pro-ASIC stuff is antithetical to the open source nature of projects like Monero 14:04:36 it makes a mockery of the principle of permissionless access to the technology 14:04:47 ... 14:05:01 I dunno, I buy the idea that if it ever commoditized, it'd be a good thing. 14:05:16 But that's long term. 14:06:02 then that should be one of the conditions before pivoting to ASIC-friendliness. see how the Bitcoin ecosystem shakes out 14:06:12 it will inevitably centralize back down to only 1 or 2 mfrs 14:06:35 the only question will be how much time they spend self-mining before they release limited quantities of their miner to the public 14:06:55 Maybe that 250 MH/s miner is AMD "testing" Zen 3? 14:07:51 I guess it's not impossible 16:34:16 RavenCoin's fix: https://github.com/RavenProject/Ravencoin-critical-fix/commit/3bba0a9f39ce5b6ce8f861e94c5d5752beefb494#diff-ca81084f62961a188f5c1e86a5ff1d7cR311 16:34:38 Has nothing to do with PoW though, just transaction checking 19:57:01 raven reports burning 2.8M. out of 300M counterfeited coins. I guess it's a start 20:13:32 291 MH/s 20:19:06 its not ZEN3 20:19:53 its a space station! 20:20:10 rome can go 45kh 20:20:14 single one, 20:21:50 but thats still like 6500 nodes 20:22:38 that would be around 50mln USD in hardware to propel such hashrate 20:33:23 samples for Milan are out https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-zen3-based-epyc-milan-processor-spotted