05:14:10 <jtgrassie> Can we get #6127 reverted?
05:14:10 <jtgrassie> It seems to have snuck in with little to no discussion and is
05:14:10 <jtgrassie> dubious it adds any benefit at all. If anything, it will simply frustrate existing and new users.
05:14:13 <jtgrassie> Would seem to me the best course of action would be to get it reverted, have some discussion around it and propose any changes based on the percieved need.
05:14:16 <jtgrassie> Thoughts?
05:15:44 <selsta> I think the idea general idea is not bad. Running help and seeing 100+ commands can be difficult for new users.
05:17:19 <jtgrassie> I'd argue a CLI user is used to seeing long-form help. That aside, we both agree it breaks the existing easy-to-use help.
05:17:34 <selsta> there are some issues with it, yes
05:18:01 <jtgrassie> honestly I would have expected some discussion around the PR before merging.
05:18:50 <selsta> It was open for 3 months or so.
05:19:29 <jtgrassie> I've been away so not been checking, but I hear you. I'm suprised nobody raised an issue until now.
05:19:45 <selsta> I would be ok with reverting it for now but there are some follow ups PRs that would have to be also reverted.
05:21:16 <jtgrassie> Thant's frustrating if there is other merged code that will conflict.
05:22:24 <jtgrassie> I do feel quite strongly it ruins our help though.
05:22:25 <selsta> https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/6058
05:22:30 <selsta> not sure if more
05:23:35 <jtgrassie> grrr
05:26:43 <jtgrassie> It is nonsense though. It's hardly "advanced" to need to quickly look up the parameters to a command.
05:27:01 <selsta> help_all would have been a better name IMO
05:29:21 <jtgrassie> help should be all and dumbed down into help could have been first-use/splash.
05:29:51 <jtgrassie> s/into/intro/
05:30:14 <selsta> that would be also ok
05:31:16 <jtgrassie> if you read what's in the dumbed-down new copy, it's near useless in any case.
05:31:41 <jtgrassie> "save" and "refresh" are legacy and not needed.
05:32:07 <jtgrassie> "transfer" misses priority.
05:33:01 <jtgrassie> "sweep_all" encourages churning, which can be harmful.
05:33:58 <jtgrassie> It's a terrible change to have got in.
05:35:49 <jtgrassie> It doesn't even document how to get the details of the commands.
05:36:54 <selsta> could you open a PR that reverts it?
05:39:12 <jtgrassie> I was thinking about that but wanted others to weigh in and/or justify why it was merged.
05:39:49 <jtgrassie> And if a revert PR was the favored approach.
05:41:52 <selsta> The reason I want to revert is that it is not implemented for the daemon so help and help_advanced display the same thing
05:42:11 <selsta> making the `Use the "help" command to see a simplified list of available commands.` message useless
05:43:37 <jtgrassie> I didn't even catch that it only applies to wallet. Another reason to add to the list of why it's a bad change.
05:44:15 <jtgrassie> "help" should definitely function the same in wallet and daemon.
05:56:12 <selsta> Yes, I would revert it and then someone can try to add a `guide` or `intro` command for new users.
11:46:03 <gingeropolous> i dunno. a lot of open source software I use has "help" provide a quickstart, and then there's a command in help to show more advanced options
11:46:15 <gingeropolous> well not even open source, but command line stuff
11:46:43 <gingeropolous> i mean, help should be helpful. Not "here's 90000 commands, good luck!"
11:47:12 <gingeropolous> but i agree it should be the same in daemon and wallet
11:48:35 <asymptotically> we can create a gnu info manual that nobody will read!
12:08:04 <moneromooo> I kinda like having a succint overall help giving you common commands to do the basics.
12:08:36 <moneromooo> "priority" is omitted because most people don't care.
12:09:14 <moneromooo> Is the problem that one has to type an extra "_advanced" for the full help ?
12:09:27 <moneromooo> (maybe _<TAB> might be enough)
12:18:34 <rbrunner> My little grief is that I have to type the long "help_advanced" for every detailed help about a command I know already how it is called, instead of simply "help <command>" like in the good old times
12:18:59 <rbrunner> (Maybe already mentioned, looks like my log is incomplete, with gingeropolous out of the blue starting to mention help ...)
12:19:35 <rbrunner> Nothing against simply "help" being short and tidy now
12:22:44 <moneromooo> Then it seems best to make "help foo" give the whole help, without removing the short blurb for "help", no ?
12:25:07 <rbrunner> Yes. As I proposed here: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/6494   Was gingeropolous referring to this, maybe?
12:26:37 <rbrunner> I collected already 5 thumbs up emoji with this :)
12:27:59 <rbrunner> If nobody shows up in the next few days and shouts "nonsense" or "heresy" I probably will make a PR
12:28:43 <rbrunner> Or two, one for the CLI wallet, and one for the daemon
12:29:26 <moneromooo> Sounds good if jtgrassie's happy with it, thanks.
14:29:14 <hyc> help_advanced seems like a massive step backwards in UX
14:35:13 <hyc> I might have endorsed a patch that paginates long outputs. Like gdb does.
14:35:41 <hyc> note that even gdb lets you set pagination=off if you don't want that feature
15:55:15 <scoobybejesus> i think if it paged the help file like `less`, it would be fine to keep long
15:58:15 <moneromooo> Then maybe just rename help to help_basic and help_advanced to help ?
16:00:00 <jtgrassie> I think that would be acceptable (as it would revert to the working help)
16:01:00 <jtgrassie> The commands documented in this abbrev help is still questionable.
16:02:06 <moneromooo> help  --type=<verbose|advanced|basic> --pager=<more|less>
16:08:39 <jtgrassie> A lot of the help could be condensed by moving commands like "save" (which are really not needed) to maybe a 'legacy' section. The fact "save" and "refresh" are in this stripped down basic help just emphasizes how useless it is now.
16:13:24 <hyc> giving flags to help is kinda dicy. you would then need "help help" to be a valid command, to explain how to use the help command.
16:15:39 <jtgrassie> agreed.
16:16:06 <jtgrassie> --pager would be a launch/conf option
16:18:06 <scoobybejesus> default pager being `less` would be nice though :)
16:19:24 <hyc> 'less' has an undesirable effect in current GUI terminals though. It issues the altscreen terminal command for its output, and reverts back ot mainscreen when you stop it.
16:19:44 <hyc> current terminals erase the display when toggling back from altscreen to mainscreen
16:19:52 <hyc> so whatever you were reading disappears.
16:20:05 <hyc> 'more' is more friendly here because it keeps all text on the mainscreen
16:20:24 <moneromooo> I was being jokacious -_-
16:20:30 <hyc> and really, there's no reason to shell out to an external pager
16:32:37 <hyc> about less and altscreens https://bugs.launchpad.net/vte/+bug/452940
16:33:34 <moneromooo> FWIW, if we were to page, I'd use an external pager.
16:33:52 <moneromooo> Gives you search, page up, all that jazz.
16:34:53 <hyc> yeah, would be perfectly fine if the damn terminal emulators had correct emulation
16:35:18 <hyc> as it is, the only usable one nowadays is original Xterm
18:12:44 <fluffypony> less is more
18:12:45 <fluffypony> :-P
18:13:08 <moneromooo> more or less.
20:10:17 <gingeropolous> back my day, monero help output fit on 12 lines
20:10:25 <gingeropolous> and i could bootstrap a daemon in a tidepool