06:28:14 <mechanic41turk[m> Cake wallet on fdroid wen
07:49:09 <mechanic41turk[m> https://nitter.cc/lexfridman/status/1364748112326180868?s=20
08:32:08 <mechanic41turk[m> My /r/monero submission titled "Stop pandering to the governments" got removed -- probably by Automod, assuming spam.
08:33:07 <mechanic41turk[m> Can someone with admin rights in the subreddit return it?
12:16:53 <sethsimmons> <mechanic41turk[m "My /r/monero submission titled ""> DM me the link and I'll take a look shortly.
12:17:06 <mechanic41turk[m> <sethsimmons "DM me the link and I'll take a l"> OK, give me 20 mins
16:43:58 <DisBotXMR2> <tifoji> That was a well written post , very good logic
16:50:05 <mechanic41turk[m> thanks
18:07:25 <midipoet> mechanic41turk[m: https://reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/lstbwv/stop_pandering_to_the_governments/gouyk67
18:07:26 <monerobux> [REDDIT] Stop pandering to the governments (self.Monero) | 67 points (97.0%) | 20 comments | Posted by mechanic41turk | Created at 2021-02-26 - 08:30:05
18:10:49 <mechanic41turk[m> midipoet: you can't educate an organization (much less a bureacratic governmental one); especially one that's positioned right against you.
18:11:42 <mechanic41turk[m> there is no hope in "convincing" government that monero is a good tool for the mankind, all the while, monero is inherently a tool that severs one of government's lines of blood (fiat money and taxation).
18:13:06 <midipoet> you can't if you keep saying you can't that's for sure.
18:13:45 <mechanic41turk[m> government understands this, and in no way it is going to accept and approve of monero. Every time the government pretends to listen to your "waterproof" arguments on why it is a good thing for individuals to have untraceable, uncensorable, global payment method; the government will only hear "this tool is going to fuck us over".
18:14:59 <mechanic41turk[m> government perhaps act like it understands and perhaps even agrees with the merit in your agreements. But make no mistake, it is a crocodile smiling, insincere, and calculating.
18:15:46 <midipoet> And I believe there is hope. For arguments sake I was on a panel literally just yesterday with a member of the Swiss national Bank. This morning he sends an email suggesting that a further panel and open discussion on privacy-preserving cryptocurrency, scalability, and how to achieve regulatory compliance without intermediaries should be held.
18:15:59 <mechanic41turk[m> so, all in all, there is no merit in trying to reason with government, especially when trying to reason for getting a legitimacy for us on a tool that takes power from the government.
18:16:02 <midipoet> That just step, but it's simple small steps like this that create change
18:16:20 <mechanic41turk[m> midipoet: good luck with that.
18:16:42 <midipoet> sure. Sit there and think things aren't possible, while others try and make it possible
18:16:53 <midipoet> Thanks for the moral support
18:17:44 <mechanic41turk[m> as a person, you can talk with whomever you want. However, government org's shouldn't expect monero to bend and twist and fit into their "categoris of legitimization".
18:17:46 <mechanic41turk[m> If they want to accept monero as it is, they can be my guest.
18:17:46 <mechanic41turk[m> midipoet: always.
18:18:07 <midipoet> nobody is saying Monero has to bend to anyone
18:18:29 <mechanic41turk[m> bend, comply... whatever.
18:18:30 <midipoet> People are saying the incumbent organisation has to be flexible to account for the affordances of the new tech
18:18:56 <mechanic41turk[m> that's incumbent org's problem (that is government's problem)
18:19:01 <midipoet> But you won't get that flexibility without educating them how and why they need to change the rules.
18:19:02 <mechanic41turk[m> government fits into monero
18:19:05 <mechanic41turk[m> not the other way around
18:19:22 <mechanic41turk[m> that's a tech that's already done. Talking is vain.
18:19:33 <midipoet> Well, I don't agree. That's your solipsism raring it's head again
18:19:36 <mechanic41turk[m> they are responsible for their own education.
18:19:46 <mechanic41turk[m> educatory material is out there.
18:19:47 <mechanic41turk[m> abundany.
18:19:50 <mechanic41turk[m> *abundant.
18:20:00 <midipoet> There is no they and us. That's the fallacy of you position. It's a false dichotomy. You are part of they. It's all our reality
18:20:15 <midipoet> *your position
18:20:16 <mechanic41turk[m> I am sure as hell not part of the tax-collector.
18:20:34 <midipoet> sure.. your are an island
18:20:36 <mechanic41turk[m> I also don't see how this is a fallacy on my part. Maybe you want to explain tht with a reddit post?
18:20:40 <midipoet> *you're
18:20:56 <mechanic41turk[m> I am a big island.
18:21:29 <midipoet> Your government (whether you care to admit it or not) maintain the social order that allows you to sit chatting shite on IRC
18:21:47 <mechanic41turk[m> Wait a sec... I didn't say let's overthrow the government
18:21:52 <midipoet> If you don't realise that, or don't care to admit it then fine. But you'd be doing well to read a history book
18:22:09 <mechanic41turk[m> midipoet: you are attacking an image of me that you have in your head.
18:22:22 <TenFootAlice> "no man is an island, he is a peninsula" < from the people that brought you ten foot alice
18:22:33 <midipoet> ;-)
18:22:37 <mechanic41turk[m> I didn't say let's overthrow it. I just said, what we do in our own computers are our own biz.
18:23:01 <mechanic41turk[m> And government has its own biz, like bombing somewhere overseas or collecting garbage.
18:23:17 <mechanic41turk[m> these two are seperate.
18:23:23 <midipoet> They aren't seperate
18:23:27 <midipoet> They are one and the same
18:23:39 <midipoet> There is one complex system, and we are all part of it.
18:23:42 <mechanic41turk[m> ok, maybe you want to explain that juju magic zen thinking.
18:26:04 <mechanic41turk[m> midipoet: yeah I definitely not feel like part of the ruling class. And that's why I need monero's tech, while these guys that you claim me to be part of, are easily accessing off-shore banking and financial secrecy.
18:26:16 <mechanic41turk[m> So, no, dude. I am not buying that religion.
18:41:12 <Mumuks[m]> midipoet: the social order is maintained by the people interacting in a civilized way with each other day after day
18:41:36 <Mumuks[m]> If people stopped, the government could do nothing, they are very few
18:43:57 <midipoet> Mumuks[m]: sure. But for a lot of people, government is required for them to act civilised. The state exerts influence and underpins the socio-political norms
18:47:40 <Mumuks[m]> I disagree
18:48:00 <Mumuks[m]> We act socially because it is evolutionary beneficial to do so
18:49:30 <Mumuks[m]> Than there is culture, and you don't need a government for that and then there are consequences to behaving "badly", but you also do not need a government for that
18:51:25 <mechanic41turk[m> midipoet: which "people"? what kind of "government"? how "civilized"?
18:51:58 <mechanic41turk[m> what you write is pretty vague for a specific conversation. Without you clarifying them, we will simply argue past each other, as we all have our own scope of definitions for these words.
18:53:19 <midipoet> Mumuks[m]: if there is no government then who enforces the "accepted moral code"?
18:54:39 <Mumuks[m]> midipoet: Same as now, do you really think the government creates society moral code?
18:55:31 <midipoet> For the most part, yes.
18:55:56 <mechanic41turk[m> well no
18:56:12 <mechanic41turk[m> midipoet: you think government created christianity?
18:57:43 <midipoet> mechanic41turk[m: no, but you could argue that christianity created the government.
18:58:08 <mechanic41turk[m> wait what?
18:58:26 <mechanic41turk[m> then doesn't that contradict what you say about government enforcing the moral code or whatever?
18:59:07 <mechanic41turk[m> moral codes are bottom up developments: they start with the individual, spread to the group, and from the group, it gets codified by the government law.
18:59:21 <mechanic41turk[m> but the whole thing hinges upon the individual
19:00:00 <midipoet> I don't think it contradicts it. Christianity provided judgement by "god". Government replaced god with a secular judicial system and adjacent constitutional law.
19:01:17 <mechanic41turk[m> Christianity  exemplified a way of acting in the world that was sustainable for the individual now, and the next week and the next month and the next year. Governemnt's law is the codification of that Christian morality for novel and specific cases of the times.
19:01:21 <midipoet> mechanic41turk[m: yes I agree that moral codes are bottom up, that's why I put it in inverted commas. But once they are "written" then you need top down enforcement of them (at least currently you do)
19:03:22 <mechanic41turk[m> midipoet: well I disagree with this. You can't make me obey the law. You can punish me for it, yes. But, moral action depends on the individual. And if my own moral judgement is saying me to act against what might be the current (and probably out of date) laws, then, I will act according to my own conscience.
19:03:53 <mechanic41turk[m> that's the thing with this whole stopping pandering to the government.
19:04:06 <mechanic41turk[m> it is terribly out of date for it to want monero to comply with it.
19:04:13 <midipoet> From my perspective it's not government that is the problem, it corporations. The whole concept of limited liability creates a framework for immorality (imo), centered on lack of accountability.
19:04:28 <mechanic41turk[m> it is government's own responsibility to recognize monero as what it is, accept it, and update itself to work with it.
19:04:43 <mechanic41turk[m> midipoet: ok you have started a completely other topic.
19:04:49 <mechanic41turk[m> which I will not engage with for now.
19:04:53 <mechanic41turk[m> was nice talking to you.
19:31:18 <TenFootAlice> as if corps and govt are somehow separate
22:43:28 <kinghat[m]> https://twitter.com/nymproject/status/1365340929469652992
23:09:49 <kinghat[m]> I think the bridges for pow and gui are borked
23:47:29 <rehrar> kinghat[m]: harry is quite the guy
23:47:40 <rehrar> and I mean that in....I don't know what way