00:00:08 <rehrar> How many bitter people are there in content creation? In traditional finance? In typical corporate structures? In government?
00:00:15 <rehrar> who knows?
00:00:24 <honigkuchen> less then in open source or free software
00:00:34 <rehrar> oh, you know this for sure?
00:00:44 <honigkuchen> I have kind of logic to it
00:00:53 <rehrar> I'm guessing there was a study done that you will now link me to as evidence?
00:01:02 <honigkuchen> I can explain
00:01:07 <rehrar> I'm all ears.
00:01:16 <nioc> w0w
00:01:25 <honigkuchen> in finance there are rich people and they can not be bitter of being homeless
00:01:35 <honigkuchen> bitterness comes if you hit hard on the ground
00:01:42 <honigkuchen> for example because you get homeless
00:02:13 <rehrar> this is...certainly a reductive way to look at things, but go on.
00:52:44 <sgp_> Is it too soon to laugh at the above
01:54:40 <honigkuchen> sgp_, are you still there?
01:54:47 <honigkuchen> sgp_, why
01:59:36 <honigkuchen> sgp_, that would imply that you found out that I am wrong on a huge aspect or the whole thing
03:57:54 * lh1008[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/amPNLYeLlGZweRusSBpJzWRF/message.txt >
03:58:10 <lh1008[m]> <rehrar "I must have missed that."> Ye, rehrar, ryo guys are hard.
04:00:19 <lh1008[m]> Thanks again to you all :)
04:09:45 <rehrar> honigkuchen: I disagree. FOSS probably has an equivalent amount of bitter people as other places.
04:10:39 <rehrar> But please do follow your instincts when it comes to causes you want to support. Nobody here would dream of telling you what to do with your resources
04:28:20 <needmoney90> idk, it does in fact look like you are 'begging for money' as you say
04:29:34 <needmoney90> Quite literally
04:47:05 <xmrhaelan[m]> I get that lh1008 made a mistake in his approach with the RYO folks, and I honestly believe it was due to his own (perhaps sometimes naive) good faith in people and hopes they can change. I warned him and he didn’t listen. I don’t know why he would refuse to apologize for that, as I know it caused a headache for many long time contributors and devs.
04:48:38 <xmrhaelan[m]> In my view it doesn’t take away from the tireless work he has done translating and managing translators, in addition to many other things he has done for Monero community efforts for the past several years.
04:50:14 <xmrhaelan[m]> I also understand his concerns about the perceived cabal that has formed around the whole Monero Space and Core debacle. I also don’t believe what you guys are doing is as bad as many paint it to be, but so long as everyone keeps acting like children when a disagreement happens we are going to keep having these arguments.
05:28:28 <sgp_> Well, the main step forward is to drop the current CCS and to make a new one, no way around that really
05:28:47 <sgp_> I'd be still skeptical about another one, but obviously less so
05:29:09 <sgp_> Up for Core and everyone else to judge really not me
06:01:07 <wowario[m]> since erciccione has been hired as a part-time webmaster with CCS funds, would it be so different if lh1008 solicit money to get paid as a "translator manager" work or whatever he does
11:46:49 <ErCiccione[m]> wowario: The outreach workgroup have opened multiple ccs proposals to fund its members (including lh1008, which was funded to coordinate their translators afair). I don't understand the "since" in your phrasing. What does this have to do with me?
11:47:33 <ErCiccione[m]> (disclaimer: I haven't read the conversation before my mention and i'm not going to)
12:18:40 <wowario[m]> (i'm not going to tldr)
12:30:40 <Inge-> Ooof. Someone needs to explain the difference between coinjoining/mising and ring signatures to Douglas Thurman
12:30:44 <Inge-> mixing*
13:21:23 <VestVep> Did you know that all witdraw-buyer-seller-depoist chains are trackable in Monero? No? You should have read Breaking Monero. How many people are you endangering with your 'privacy' coin?
13:32:39 <Inge-> +1 for Breaking monero series
13:38:15 <xmrhaelan[m]> ErCiccione the outreach workgroup hasn’t opened a ccs proposal since May 2019. Lh1008 was allocated 20xmr for the entire proposal. That is completely insufficient for the amount of work he does. The guy needs to eat.
13:52:17 <sgp_> Ugh why do these convos have to always be circular
13:52:28 <sgp_> All the points have been made
13:52:52 <sgp_> Lh can change it, of they can not. Until then there's nothing else to say really
13:53:50 <xmrhaelan[m]> People are busy, they have short memories. I don’t know?
14:01:07 <fluffypony> this stuff is much easier if there's a dictator who makes the decisions :-P
14:07:24 <lh1008[m]> <sgp_ "Ugh why do these convos have to "> Because everyone wants to have the truth owned. That's pure and hard rationalism. Linguistic limitation I call it.
14:08:11 <cankerwort[m]> Proposal has no clear deliverables benefiting the project, I vote no
14:10:34 <lh1008[m]> <needmoney90 "Quite literally"> Well, it could be, yes, begging, begging is not bad. I'm a beggar then and happy to be one.
14:13:39 <lh1008[m]> Please community, help me :). I need to pay my bills. Seriously, like everyone else. I'll keep delivering with or without the communities help (this is a hard truth). I would like to have communities help but if I don't I'll just keep working the same as I'm doing. Anyway I would like to be thrown some coins to the floor so I can kneel and pick them up. Love you anyways.
14:15:51 <lh1008[m]> <fluffypony "this stuff is much easier if the"> o7 :P
14:16:58 <cankerwort[m]> Seems a donation address on some of your own work/projects would be a better fit than the CCS.
14:19:26 <lh1008[m]> <cankerwort[m] "Seems a donation address on some"> But I need to everyone to see, and the CCS is the best place to be seen. If I put an address there then I will be called a scammer asking for coins, so look at the limitations we have put ourselves in.
14:21:51 <sgp_> No, put yourself in. Change the CCS to be for future Monero deliverables
14:23:10 <lh1008[m]> One way for the community to check my progress is the school score, I have to pass those trimesters. Is not like it was an online program that I just managed my time, I'm attached to an ISA, I will need to work for the community as an obligation.
14:23:22 <lh1008[m]> <sgp_ "No, put yourself in. Change the "> I'll change stuff, I'll ask for help on this.
15:07:39 <honigkuchen> rehrar, "Nobody here would dream of telling you what to do with your resources" why
15:08:01 <lh1008[m]> Look, then I'm called a crazy one by calling people out. But my post was removed from reddit.
15:08:18 <honigkuchen> rehrar, the thing is, that you are right
15:08:20 * lh1008[m] uploaded an image: look.png (119KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/VrwYrlnABIQKKnUmeriZBecH/look.png >
15:08:58 <lh1008[m]> And we deny it, it makes me laugh seriously.
15:09:49 <lh1008[m]> I'll push it again, I'm working on it. :)
15:19:02 <honigkuchen> sgp_, yesterday I was wrong in one main aspect
15:19:26 <honigkuchen> sgp_, he was not bitter, it was completely different
15:26:07 <xmrhaelan[m]> Lh1008 I think you are having such a hard time because of what you have done with the RYO conversations. There are professional ways to challenge security without causing headaches for developers and they have gone against all accepted industry practices to try and make Monero look bad, rather than being mature and following industry practices. You mingling with them has hurt your reputation.
15:26:19 <sgp_> honigkuchen: perhaps such a high level, drawn out discussion isn't a good fit for this channel
15:27:27 <honigkuchen> sgp_, I was wrong
15:27:36 <honigkuchen> sgp_, also in dealing with him
15:29:19 <honigkuchen> sgp_, I started a discussion there that I should better not have started
15:29:25 <sgp_> all right
15:29:31 <sgp_> well we can just leave it and move on
15:30:17 <honigkuchen> I am always the way testing human beings
15:30:27 <honigkuchen> just to can understand them better
15:30:36 <lh1008[m]> Yeah, I'm aware of that. That doesn't make me less community member. So like I said it the monero-devs chat room, I have to deal with the energy received from members. We no longer live on past world, these stuff are hard to speak too. So I was who spoke, and will keep speaking those things. This conversations are becoming public, before people managed to private these things but now things are different. In the
15:30:36 <lh1008[m]> monero jobs telegram channel the guy who found a bug in zcash is there promoting his work too, publicly, talking about it openly. There are things we just keep "hiding" (if any) or censoring (I don't like to use the word censoring but it is the definition).
15:38:40 <lh1008[m]> I'm not against what what community members do, but if I'm building a tool and selling a tool that is meant to be money and has issues, man I have to find ways to help fix those issues. If there are people who are not professional enough to do thing the "right" way, because we no longer live in that world, well, I'm adapting (complying) to the new hard stuff. I would have been private and no one knew who I was,
15:38:40 <lh1008[m]> well, what the hell, I'll create a new user and start from zero, but my face is all over the internet promoting Monero. So I'm going to do my job.
15:39:07 <lh1008[m]>  * I'm not against what what community members do, but if I'm building a tool and selling a tool that is meant to be money and has issues, man I have to find ways to help fix those issues. If there are people who are not professional enough to do thing the "right" way, because we no longer live in that world, well, I'm adapting (complying) to the new hard stuff. If I would have been private and no one knew who I
15:39:08 <lh1008[m]> was, well, what the hell, I'll create a new user and start from zero, but my face is all over the internet promoting Monero. So I'm going to do my job.
15:39:44 <sethsimmons> I have no idea how you have the audacity to claim no one else here is trying to make Monero better except you.
15:39:57 <sethsimmons> That's why were all here, and that's why were open and honest about its flaws.
15:40:01 <lh1008[m]> No, you're taking it very personal
15:40:15 <lh1008[m]> you do you job I do mine setsimmons
15:40:28 <sethsimmons> You have made poor personal decisions in how to pursue your vision for Monero that we disagree with.
15:40:55 <sethsimmons> We've been clear the issues your CCS has and how flawed your approach with RYO was.
15:40:58 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "That's why were all here, and th"> The same as I, but you don't like my way, so what, ignore me? Move me away? Like I said to rehrar, blame everything to lh? Easy, isn't it?
15:41:44 <lh1008[m]> No flaw, i have been the only one who has managed to speak with ryo and not getting into a mess, so don't tell me I'm the flaw here.
15:42:09 <lh1008[m]> Why haven't you gone to the telegram chat room and speak with them of whatever they found?
15:42:11 <sethsimmons> No one has blamed you for anything except what you have have explicitly done.
15:43:27 <lh1008[m]> What if what they claim is bullshit? Go and tell them it's bullshit. You guys do your job, my job is/was to be there at that point, so there I am, figuring out how to work this out.
15:44:07 <lh1008[m]> And I'm here not telling you what to do, you guys are doing a wonderful job.
15:44:34 <sethsimmons> <lh1008[m] "Why haven't you gone to the tele"> There are proper channels to report bugs and get paid for it. They choose to attack the network instead. I have no interest in dealing with people like that as they have proven they cannot act in good faith.
15:45:44 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "No one has blamed you for anythi"> Because it seems you're not used to see that type of things, so it's surprising, I know, and hard to see. I was the one who felt fear, pointed, persecuted (not sure if this the right word), and even threatened.
15:46:01 <sethsimmons> Persecuted lol
15:46:12 <sethsimmons> You made a poor decision and everyone around you told you it was a poor decision.
15:46:20 <sethsimmons> Thats just people being helpful and speaking from experience
15:46:29 <sethsimmons> I don't think you were being malicious, but rather naive.
15:47:05 <sethsimmons> There is nothing to be gained for Monero by speaking in chat rooms with FUK and others of his merry little band.
15:47:14 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "There are proper channels to rep"> That's the issue, not that you don't want to talk to them, but how can we say they are acting in bad faith or in good faith? How can we balance faith?
15:47:20 <sethsimmons> If they discover improvements to the network they can either push them upstream or submit to HackerOne.
15:47:28 <sethsimmons> They chose to be malicious actors and attack the network instead.
15:47:33 <sethsimmons> So they can GTFO.
15:47:48 <sethsimmons> <lh1008[m] "That's the issue, not that you d"> You aren't reading what I'm saying, apparently.
15:47:49 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "You made a poor decision and eve"> So, I'm very cheap, I don't blame anyone about who I am, I am who I am, that's it. You don't like it, you have me in the same room talking to you.
15:47:56 <sethsimmons> ?
15:48:10 <sethsimmons> Idk what you're even saying at this point and I've said my piece.
15:48:42 <sethsimmons> Make what you will of it, but don't malign the people working day in and day out and say you're the only one doing things "the right way" because you have some strange vision of the world.
15:49:02 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "I don't think you were being mal"> Yeah, I have been told that too. Anyway I have to keep walking and see where this goes. We can't fall to be fanatics either, here we're acting like fanatics, and you all have pointed me as a fanatic because of being in church of monero, and it seems it's the other way.
15:49:05 <sethsimmons> You are free to do what you want to help Monero, but if we all disagree with your approach do not expect us to fund you or encourage you.
15:49:20 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "There is nothing to be gained fo"> We're also a band.
15:50:03 <sethsimmons> I'm done here, it's obvious discussing this with you just leads to circular arguments..
15:50:06 <sethsimmons> Have a good one.
15:50:15 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "If they discover improvements to"> They have tried and have been paid very little, so it's not their fault, they are also in the money business
15:51:06 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "Make what you will of it, but do"> You're taking to personal, I do my job as you do yours, your the one who doesn't like my work. That's not my fault.
15:51:56 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "You are free to do what you want"> Don't worry, I know this and have it very clear, since day one. There's also a record on this too, a lot of community members read it here too.
15:52:29 <lh1008[m]> <sethsimmons "I'm done here, it's obvious disc"> You just want me to rationalize with you, I told you rationalism is dangerous and I can't.
16:03:08 <lh1008[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/kx8gu0/what_does_monero_code_need_to_work_in/
16:03:08 <monerobux> [REDDIT] What does Monero code need to work in? (self.Monero) | 1 points (100.0%) | 0 comments | Posted by lh1008 | Created at 2021-01-14 - 16:02:25
16:22:21 <xmrhaelan[m]> <lh1008[m] "Because it seems you're not used"> Human groups, whether it be a group of friends or an entire industry, have norms of behavior. When individuals in that group go against the norms, they are judged and cast aside. You are not going to change human psychology lh1008.
16:23:06 <xmrhaelan[m]> <lh1008[m] "That's the issue, not that you d"> I think this argument is getting lost in translation.
16:48:07 <sethsimmons> <xmrhaelan[m] "I think this argument is getting"> Yeah, I think a good bit is.
16:49:10 <sethsimmons> <xmrhaelan[m] "Human groups, whether it be a gr"> The problem is this isn't just "going against norms" its going against helpful guidelines and community suggestions.
16:50:47 <lh1008[m]> I call it collective thought (but well, that's not a definition for the mass psycology). I'm not stupid like people think. I won't stay silenced because we have fear. Either way no one here gave behavior rules, since day one I have received respect so that's what I have been giving. That's why workgroups have been created and aligned to specific behavior. I haven't threatened anyone, but been threatened, I haven't
16:50:47 <lh1008[m]> called people names, but received different names, I haven't been rude, but received it, I haven't used bad words, but called bad words. The strategy is easy, find someone to push or blaim. This time it won't work, and yes we will change human psycology because we're not acting right. Closing borders, pushing people out, negating development, those are not proper values that I received when I got here.
16:54:53 * xmrhaelan[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/iDCKZUbwKSxliNSNqLKQlutx/message.txt >
16:56:04 <sethsimmons> For sure.
16:56:06 <xmrhaelan[m]> <lh1008[m] "I call it collective thought (bu"> You also weren’t acting this way when you came here. You used to be able to take constructive criticism and admit fault.
16:59:40 <lh1008[m]> <xmrhaelan[m] "You also weren’t acting this way"> Yes, and still do, but I won't people push me around and call me names, I haven't done that to them.
16:59:59 <lh1008[m]> > <@xmrhaelan:matrix.org> You also weren’t acting this way when you came here. You used to be able to take constructive criticism and admit fault.
16:59:59 <lh1008[m]>  * Yes, and still do, but I won't let people push me around and call me names, I haven't done that to them.
17:45:35 * ErCiccione[m] just remembered why he left this room some weeks ago. Out
18:00:55 <nioc> maybe some psychedelics are needed here
18:00:55 <monerobux> nioc: 2021-01-14 - 17:41:02 <shillo> tell nioc I didn't know you moved to australia! https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1349772792665923584
18:02:49 <rehrar> xmrhaelan lh1008[m] is not having a hard time because of his RYO stuff. It's because his proposal doesn't belong in the CCS as written.
18:08:25 <rehrar> lh1008[m]: I'm going to ask you to please stop wasting people's time about this issue. Core closed your CCS proposal because it's to be used for direct, tangible benefit to Monero, not indirect benefits. If you don't see the difference, I'll be happy to explain.
18:08:57 <rehrar> If you want some help making a new proposal with tangible benefits within your current skill set, you can ask for suggestions here.
18:09:32 <rehrar> Although, depending on your current skill set, there may not be any paid work people see the need to get done. You're still free to submit a proposal, of course, but don't be surprised if it doesn't gain traction.
18:10:17 <rehrar> For now, I'm pretty done with the lectures and 'you do you, I'll do me' rhetoric. Yes. We know that. Thanks.
18:13:39 <nioc> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/bulletproofs-plus-audit.html
18:14:44 <xmrhaelan[m]> <rehrar "xmrhaelan lh1008 is not having a"> I know, but his antics with RYO certainty seems to have put a stain on his reputation. Judging by the comments here
18:16:03 <rehrar> xmrhaelan[m]: disagree. He's trying to use it as leverage for how he does things in the community nobody else does and that's useful. The Ryo things wouldn't have been brought up if he wouldn't keep trying to fight this core decision of closing his proposal for being out of scope for the system.
18:17:05 <rehrar> I don't think he's wrong for trying to make peace with fuk. I did the same back in the day, as did many others. I also probably would have ignored warnings. Because I had to settle with my own conscience, not other people. I did so, and now my conscience is clear. I tried. I can understand that perspective.
18:17:22 <rehrar> So I can understand how he has to do what he needs to do for him.
18:17:31 <rehrar> But it's not relevant to why his proposal was closed. :P
18:18:55 <xmrhaelan[m]> Well said.
18:35:15 <lh1008[m]> <nioc "maybe some psychedelics are need"> agree with you
18:42:23 <lh1008[m]> <rehrar "xmrhaelan: disagree. He's trying"> This is kind of overthinking. I don't plan stuff, I just do and live. This what I'm referring too as trying to define everyone in a scope, if you are in my head and in my thoughts, please share how you do you it. I don't mind being closed, I will just have to live with it and continue. I'm not going to do anything different than to make it better, until it fits. If it's
18:42:23 <lh1008[m]> closed once it fits, this will keep confirming my affirmation about what I always said about the CCS and the issues it has. The pop will explode at some point.
18:42:49 <lh1008[m]> <rehrar "If you want some help making a n"> Yeah, I understand, no worries.
18:43:33 <lh1008[m]> <rehrar "But it's not relevant to why his"> thanks for clarifying :)
18:43:35 <rehrar> k
19:02:23 <sgp_> nioc 🎉🎉🎉
19:22:08 <geonic> https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210111/p2a/00m/0dm/016000c
19:23:00 <geonic> too soon? :)
19:32:00 <Inge-> hah
19:41:13 <Elementoshi[m]> Can someone give me a TL;TR on all the hubbub? I want to hear both sides
19:56:52 <sgp_> Elementoshi[m]: nah, scroll up
19:58:20 <Elementoshi[m]> I did. For a while.
19:58:50 <Elementoshi[m]> All I get is lh wants funding for something against community guidelines, or something like that
20:21:17 <Inge-> dayum. BP+ audit funded in record time
20:21:32 <Inge-> have to be on the ball to get to join the funding
20:25:39 <xmrscott[m]> Yeah, as of late you have to sign in and set up Merge merge request notifications on: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals
20:25:58 <xmrscott[m]> Which is a nice place to be funding wise I guess
20:57:47 <nioc> Inge-: thumbs up
21:02:52 <sgp_> amazing news
21:06:26 <Elementoshi[m]> how many transactions per second can monero handle?
21:07:03 <sech1> Theoretically unlimited, in practice it will be limited by network bandwidth
21:07:36 <sech1> 1000 tx/second will require 2-3 MByte/sec bandwidth
21:08:38 <Elementoshi[m]> Oh cool
21:09:26 <Elementoshi[m]> Hmm. Would something like IOTA be limited by bandwidth too? And whose bandwidth would Monero be limited by? The bandwidth of anyone who wants to run a full node?
21:10:06 <sech1> End user bandwidth will also matter if users can't scan all incoming transactions
21:10:52 <sech1> Users will hit the limit first, Monero nodes in datacenters have more bandwidth
21:13:06 <Elementoshi[m]> Oof.
21:15:25 <Inge-> IOTA is bandwidth limited by the number of board nembers they can replace per year
21:15:59 <Inge-> Wen coordicide?
21:25:06 <xmrhaelan[m]> <Inge- "IOTA is bandwidth limited by the"> Lol
21:27:19 <Elementoshi[m]> IOTA: Theoretically the Tangle can scale infinitely and is limited only by the physics of the network bandwidth.
21:27:19 <Elementoshi[m]> Monero's dynamic block size: Am I a joke to you?
22:44:11 <geonic> empirically... https://www.coindesk.com/iota-being-shut-off-is-the-latest-chapter-in-an-absurdist-history
22:51:40 <Inge-> newer info: David kicked out
22:56:48 <Inge-> or maybe left